<< <i>It is a fact that this past 5 game massacre will be remembered for a very long time regardless the outcome of this year. >>
I respectfully disagree. If the Yanks don't do anything (make the playoffs, win in the playoffs etc.) I doubt it will have the significance of 1978. If the Sox turn things around, then certainly this will be forgotten soon enough. I think a lot will indeed depend on the outcome this year - right now, it was just an ugly weekend series where the Sox lost 5 games in a row.
<< <i>It is a fact that this past 5 game massacre will be remembered for a very long time regardless the outcome of this year. >>
Yes, yankee fans have been trying desperately to forget the biggest choke in baseball postseason history for 2 years now, a series in august is going to somehow help them forget that? >>
I thought the biggest choke in postseason history was Game 6 of the 1986 World Series?
METS 10TH: Backman made an out to left; Hernandez flied to center; Carter singled to left; MITCHELL BATTED FOR AGUILERA; Mitchell singled to center [Carter to second]; Knight singled to center [Carter scored, Mitchell to third]; STANLEY REPLACED SCHIRALDI (PITCHING); Stanley threw a wild pitch [Mitchell scored, Knight to second]; Wilson reached on an error by Buckner [Knight scored (unearned)]; 3 R, 3 H, 1 E, 1 LOB. Red Sox 5, Mets 6.
Final Totals R H E LOB Red Sox 5 13 3 14 Mets __ 6_ 8_2 _8 >>
Uh, nice try - but no. The only reason I bring this up again is because you asked, and because you seem to like pictures -
<< <i>It is a fact that this past 5 game massacre will be remembered for a very long time regardless the outcome of this year. >>
I respectfully disagree. If the Yanks don't do anything (make the playoffs, win in the playoffs etc.) I doubt it will have the significance of 1978. If the Sox turn things around, then certainly this will be forgotten soon enough. I think a lot will indeed depend on the outcome this year - right now, it was just an ugly weekend series where the Sox lost 5 games in a row. >>
I agree. The signifigance of that series is solely dependent on how the Yankees do from here on in. They dont make the playoffs it will be mostly forgotten, and certainly become irrelevant. They end up winning the world series, it will stand the test of time.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
<< <i>It is a fact that this past 5 game massacre will be remembered for a very long time regardless the outcome of this year. >>
I respectfully disagree. If the Yanks don't do anything (make the playoffs, win in the playoffs etc.) I doubt it will have the significance of 1978. If the Sox turn things around, then certainly this will be forgotten soon enough. I think a lot will indeed depend on the outcome this year - right now, it was just an ugly weekend series where the Sox lost 5 games in a row. >>
The Yanks still have issues with their starting pitching...
Mussina will miss his next start. RJ is terrible. Wright is having control problems. Wang has looked shaky in his last 3 starts. Lidle could be their best starter right now. His K/9 for 2006 is a career high.
Other random thoughts...
The Red Sox are done. Not only is their starting pitching been awful, but their lineup is no longer the terror it once was from 2003-05. Their run/game is the lowest since 2002. No more Bill Mueller to kill the Yanks. Instead, Mike Lowell is making outs. Nixon and Varitek are injured. And Damon wears pinstripes. In their place: Wily Mo Pena, Coco Crisp, and Mirabell/Lopez. Of the replacements, only Pena is good. Manny and Ortiz are not enough.
The Yanks have figured out how to pitch to Youkilis. Throw him strikes. Youkilis, a.k.a. the "Greek God of Walks", is lacking in power. The Yanks and other teams are discovering this. If Youkilis gets on base, let him do it with his bat. Youkilis must get his power number up in the years ahead, or he'll become the next Scott Hatteberg.
Hindsight is 20/20. That said, the Beckett deal is just killing this team, perhaps for the next two seasons. Hanley Ramirez is hitting well playing most of his games in pitcher's parks. Anibal Sanchez is also doing well, but it's likely because of the pitcher's park and NL effect. Still, the Red Sox have uncertainty at SS and 2B for 2007.
I never liked the signing of Hideki Matusi. He's not a $13mil/yr player. Now that Melky Cabrera is playing and with Matsui's wrist injury, Matsui's contract becomes an albatross.
Two things buried the Bosox: Beckett's performance, and the Abreu trade. The Sox could have gotten Abreu if they tried. I'm not buying the "money" argument. Abreu is only costing the Yankees $4.1mil pro-rated for 2006 and $15mil for 2007. Nixon, Loretta, Cora, Lopez, Mirabelli, Wells, Foulke, Seanez, and Timlin are all not expected back next season, thus freeing up about $34.5mil in salary in 2007. Getting Abreu would have given Boston the division. Instead, his benefits go to the Yankees. W/o Abreu, Boston wins 4/5 in this series. Abreu is an on-base machine that was at the heart of most of the crooked numbers found in the innings boxes.
<< <i>It is a fact that this past 5 game massacre will be remembered for a very long time regardless the outcome of this year. >>
Yes, yankee fans have been trying desperately to forget the biggest choke in baseball postseason history for 2 years now, a series in august is going to somehow help them forget that? >>
I thought the biggest choke in postseason history was Game 6 of the 1986 World Series?
METS 10TH: Backman made an out to left; Hernandez flied to center; Carter singled to left; MITCHELL BATTED FOR AGUILERA; Mitchell singled to center [Carter to second]; Knight singled to center [Carter scored, Mitchell to third]; STANLEY REPLACED SCHIRALDI (PITCHING); Stanley threw a wild pitch [Mitchell scored, Knight to second]; Wilson reached on an error by Buckner [Knight scored (unearned)]; 3 R, 3 H, 1 E, 1 LOB. Red Sox 5, Mets 6.
Final Totals R H E LOB Red Sox 5 13 3 14 Mets __ 6_ 8_2 _8 >>
<< <i>Uh, nice try - but no. The only reason I bring this up again is because you asked, and because you seem to like pictures - >>
>>
Nice argument. "I say so" always works. Spoken like a true homer.
Which is more likely to happen, having a team beat another team 4 games in a row, or having a two run lead heading into their opponent's final at bat with 2 outs, nobody on, and down to their last strike?
Granted, the Yanks were the first team to blow a 3-0 series lead. But the Sox blew a sure World Championship by losing Game 6.
I freely admit that the 2004 ALCS was the greatest series choke in postseason history, but Game 6 was, without a doubt, the greatest single game choke in postseason history.
In any case, I lived and remembered seeing my team win six WS. Since 1923, the Yankees have set the record of championships with 26. Boston has six including only one in 86 years. This is more than enough to absorb the sting of 2004. Based on Manny and Ortiz both being in their 30s and the recent failures of management, it's going to be another long while before Boston celebrates another title.
<< <i>I freely admit that the 2004 ALCS was the greatest series choke in postseason history, but Game 6 was, without a doubt, the greatest single game choke in postseason history. >>
How can you say that, when there was still game 7 to be played? Lame, lame, lame attempt at trying to spin. The yankees are known for having the greatest postseason collapse in the history of baseball. Period. It's not even a discussion.
<< <i>I freely admit that the 2004 ALCS was the greatest series choke in postseason history, but Game 6 was, without a doubt, the greatest single game choke in postseason history. >>
How can you say that, when there was still game 7 to be played? Lame, lame, lame attempt at trying to spin. The yankees are known for having the greatest postseason collapse in the history of baseball. Period. It's not even a discussion. >>
Another "I said so". There wouldn't have been a game seven if Boston had not defied astronomical odds by losing Game 6. In '04, the Yankees were simply beaten by a better Red Sox team and had no business being up 3-0.
Saying that the Yankees choked implies that the Sox were lucky to win becuase the Yanks got them off the hook. Why can't you just say that the Red Sox were simply the better team. I'll admit it. Moreover, the Yankees were lucky to beat Boston in the 2003 ALCS. I thought the Sox were the better team then too.
<< <i>Still, the Red Sox have uncertainty at SS and 2B for 2007. >>
I like most of your post - but you lost me here. The Red Sox have a top prospect, Dustin Pedroia, who they actually had to call up Tuesday to replace Alex Gonzalez at SS because he went on the DL. Pedroia has long been expected to be the starting SS in 2007, and perhaps the reason Hanley Ramirez was expendible.
Also, when you factor in the 40% luxury tax the Yankees will have to pay MLB for Abreu, it will indeed cost them over $27 million for him, this year and next. The Sox, and rightly so, opted not to take that much of a burden. The Yanks are about the only team that could.
<< <i>Still, the Red Sox have uncertainty at SS and 2B for 2007. >>
<< <i>I like most of your post - but you lost me here. The Red Sox have a top prospect, Dustin Pedroia, who they actually had to call up Tuesday to replace Alex Gonzalez at SS because he went on the DL. Pedroia has long been expected to be the starting SS in 2007, and perhaps the reason Hanley Ramirez was expendible. >>
To clarify, I meant 2B/SS as a single entity. I know about Pedroia, but who plays next to him? Gonzalez and Loretta are gone since neither are worth their arbitration dollars.
<< <i>Also, when you factor in the 40% luxury tax the Yankees will have to pay MLB for Abreu, it will indeed cost them over $27 million for him, this year and next. The Sox, and rightly so, opted not to take that much of a burden. The Yanks are about the only team that could. >>
The Yanks had no choice. If they didn't get Abreu, they were dead. What made this more than a money deal was the way Cashman crafted this. He didn't panic and instead, waited patiently for Gillick to finsh trade talks with other teams. When the Phillies couldn't find any takers, Cashman swooped in and was in a position to dictate terms: Philly wanted NY to pay for Abreu's NT clause ($1.5mil) the Yanks said no, Cashman wanted Lidle in the deal, Philly offered Leiber instead. As I said earlier, Lidle is their best starting pitcher right now. Moreover, Philly wanted some of the top prospects and wound up with low "A" ball refuse.
There are other costs beside money. Theo and Co. are taking a beating right now in the talk shows and the media. Coco Crisp is getting booed because he's no Johnny Damon. Getting Abreu would have driven a stake into the heart of the Yankees and would have taken the pressure off of Crisp and the other younger players. As I said, the Sox are slated to shed over $34mil in salary for next season. And they were in a better position of getting Abreu than the Yankees. Heck, Francona even coached Abreu in Philly. Everyone saw first hand over the 5-game series just how valuable an asset Abreu is.
One more point. It appears unlikely that the Yankees will pick up Sheffield's $13mil option. If Mussina doesn't finish the season strong, the team will likely decline his $17mil option.
<< <i>The Yanks had no choice. If they didn't get Abreu, they were dead. What made this more than a money deal was the way Cashman crafted this. He didn't panic and instead, waited patiently for Gillick to finsh trade talks with other teams. When the Phillies couldn't find any takers, Cashman swooped in and was in a position to dictate terms: Philly wanted NY to pay for Abreu's NT clause ($1.5mil) the Yanks said no, Cashman wanted Lidle in the deal, Philly offered Leiber instead. As I said earlier, Lidle is their best starting pitcher right now. Moreover, Philly wanted some of the top prospects and wound up with low "A" ball refuse. >>
Good points. If there is one thing you can say about the Abreu deal, it did bring another starting pitcher to NY - and both NY and Boston need starting pitching desperately.
And, I cannot disagree with your assessment of what's going on with Theo at the moment in the press. He has held firm to his position not to trade young pitching, and many are now criticizing him for that. But, I still stand by it. For example, you don't think that last year several teams called the Sox asking about Papelbon, trying to give the Sox a hitter in return they might have used last year down the stretch? It would have only made them possibly last 4 games against Chicago rather than the three they did, and they'd be up a creek this season even worse than they are now. Wells is gone next season, Schilling will be 40, Wakefield isn't a young guy either, and Beckett has proven inconsistent at best so far - so, when the rest of the league is scrambling for pitching, we will hopefully have Lester, Hansen, Papelbon, and several other young arms who are ready to go - not thrown into the fire too early like now, but ready to pitch at the MLB level. As long as you build that, you can always acquire hitting.
<< <i>so, when the rest of the league is scrambling for pitching, we will hopefully have Lester, Hansen, Papelbon, and several other young arms who are ready to go - >>
I don't think I am alone in having zero faith in or hope for Hansen. He needs some serious development to achieve success at the AAA/ML level. College players couldn't hit him well because of his velocity. AAA and ML players eat straight fastballs over the middle of the plate for breakfast.
A lot of people are jumping ship on Hansen - but I just think he was brought up to the big club way too early. He needs some time in the minors to work on some other pitches, and get his fastball to a major league level. Otherwise, you're right - he won't last long.
And, we need him to - hopefully, he can be closer material for the Sox before long, so Papelbon can go where he belongs - in the rotation.
If Hansen stays in the organization, my guess is the Sox will trade him to upgrade their starters during the offseason, he's not going to be closer material in 2007 -- maybe in 2008 or in 2009. He's showing nothing these days. If the Sox want to move Papelbon to a starting role, they are going to have to buy a closer with all the money they will save from dumping Seanez, Tavarez, Timlin, Wells, and perhaps Keith Foulke (when can they get rid of him?). DelCarmen looks like he might have the talent to be a setup guy. He has shown promise from time to time -- he's teachable.
No more time to tell how This is the season of what Now is the time of returning With thought jewels polished and gleaming
Now is the time past believing The child has relinquished the reign Now is the test of the boomerang Tossed in the night of redeeming
No more time to tell how This is the season of what Now is the time of returning With thought jewels polished and gleaming
Now is the time past believing The child has relinquished the reign Now is the test of the boomerang Tossed in the night of redeeming
Eight sided whispering hallelujah hatrack Seven faced marble eye transitory dream doll six proud walkers on jinglebell rainbow Five men writing in fingers of gold Four men tracking down the great white sperm whale Three girls wait in a foreign dominion Ride in the whale belly Fade away in moonlight Sink beneath the waters to the coral sand below Now is the time of returning
...or maybe to simplify for the " chaw-dah heads"... look up....see the wicked dark star ??
edited again:
run turtle run.
...aww shucks..better just haul ass turtle ..while you can
9 games out now. When I started this thread I had a good feeling but in no way envisioned the Sox collapsing in every possible way like they have.
Good to hear positive news about Papi and I really hope Lester gets better for himself and his family.
Those two points aside, I have thoroughly enjoyed the Boston meltdown. Especially because a certain few have yelled all winter and spring about the divison going to the Sox and the Blue Jays in second .....
I am ready for those same peeps to totally ignore how wrong they have been ..... as they hop on the "well, the Yankees won't do well in the playoffs" crutch
Simply put, the Sox were winning on smoke & mirrors all season and their luck finally ran out. Starting pitching is poor, they are awful up the middle (once Varitek got hurt and CocoPuffs replaced Damon) and the bullpen is truly terrible. This team needs some major work in the offseasom, even Papelbon looks vulnerable now. Not a good time to be a Sox fan, to be sure.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I am ready for those same peeps to totally ignore how wrong they have been ..... as they hop on the "well, the Yankees won't do well in the playoffs" crutch
Dan
If that doesn't work,(and the yanks do indeed win in the playoffs) they can always fall back on the payroll being the highest.
Jerry, you sang all winter, spring, and early summer about how the Yankees starting pitching stinks, the middle relief stinks, the farm system is barron, management is clueless and not prepared for "where they are now", the Red Sox and Blue Jays will finish one two, etc, etc, etc.
wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong again.
All I have done is debate against all of these things that were absurdly untrue and am very happy to see the Red SOx crash and burn (Papi and Lester aside) into a mediocre team with a future that is bleak with its current leadership. We told you Coco Crisp was a bust from the beginning, we told you Damon would come back and kill you, we told you Beckett was over-rated ...... tru, tru, and true. Enjoy football season guys
<< <i>Jerry, you sang all winter, spring, and early summer about how the Yankees starting pitching stinks, the middle relief stinks, the farm system is barron, management is clueless and not prepared for "where they are now", >>
Which still holds true, but the other teams were just worse
<< <i>Yes, and of course, we all know that the payroll is not a factor at all in the Yankees success. >>
Cry some more CTSox. Your the SAME person who said that the Sox shouldn't be worried about Robinson Cano; rebutting my statement that he's a huge factor. What did you know? Turns out Cano had as many RBI's as Ortiz and Ramirez COMBINED.
Robinson Cano C. Mien Wang Melky Cabrera Scott Proctor More to come....
Collecting; Mark Mulder rookies Chipper Jones rookies Orlando Cabrera rookies Lawrence Taylor Sam Huff Lavar Arrington NY Giants NY Yankees NJ Nets NJ Devils 1950s-1960s Topps NY Giants Team cards
We listened to Jerry alllll winter, spring, and early summer about how the Yankees starting pitching stinks, the middle relief stinks, the farm system is barron, management is clueless and not prepared for "where they are now", the Red Sox and Blue Jays will finish one two, etc, etc, etc.
As usual around here there is no tip of the cap .... there is just the oh so predictable run into the arms of the payroll argument. No matter how WRONG and WAY OFF these comments have been going all the way back to last November all the way up to the beginning of the Sox collapse. 8 months of post after post after post about the above things and now that the jig is up PAYROLL is the last hole to hide in.
I along with other Yankee fans have no fear of tiping the cap when the time is due.
Jerry, that is referring to the way you brushed off Cano AGAIN as a nobody in the thread about the Yanks/Sox 5 game series. Then went on to tell us all that you favored the Sox in every pitching matchup
<< <i>Believe me, Dan - when the season is over, I'll certainly tip my cap to the winner. I have no problem doing that. >>
Thats cool Jerry. The problem IS that you were talking ALL THE TIME about the Yankees not reaching the playoffs. Since last winter you were. You were talking about the Yankees finishing in 3rd place behind the Blue Jays and first place Red Sox. Forget about the World Series .... for 8 months you were feeding us all with anti Yankee propaganda about the pitching, the farm system, management, etc ..... thats all man. I just don't understand how now that all of that has turned out to be wrong you have switched up on gauging success.
Ah, in the 5 game series. Otherwise, that statement was a bit odd.
Yes, I did say the pitching favored the Sox in that ill-fated series. Schilling and Wells held up their end, but the rest of the Sox staff picked the worst time to break down, completely. If you looked at the matchups on paper, before the series, I don't think that saying that was that far off base.
<< <i>Yes, and of course, we all know that the payroll is not a factor at all in the Yankees success. >>
Absolutely not. The deft touch of Joe Torre is solely responsible for any and all Yankee success. >>
Exactly.
<< <i>Turns out Cano had as many RBI's as Ortiz and Ramirez COMBINED. >>
Excuse me, but what are you talking about here? >>
I posted before the 5 game Yanks/Sox Fenways series that the guy to watchout for was Cano. You brushed him off. Turns out, you were wrong. He matched Ortiz/Ramirez RBI totals for that series. Not bad for 2Bagger eh?
Collecting; Mark Mulder rookies Chipper Jones rookies Orlando Cabrera rookies Lawrence Taylor Sam Huff Lavar Arrington NY Giants NY Yankees NJ Nets NJ Devils 1950s-1960s Topps NY Giants Team cards
<< <i>Believe me, Dan - when the season is over, I'll certainly tip my cap to the winner. I have no problem doing that. >>
Thats cool Jerry. The problem IS that you were talking ALL THE TIME about the Yankees not reaching the playoffs. Since last winter you were. You were talking about the Yankees finishing in 3rd place behind the Blue Jays and first place Red Sox. Forget about the World Series .... for 8 months you were feeding us all with anti Yankee propaganda about the pitching, the farm system, management, etc ..... thats all man. I just don't understand how now that all of that has turned out to be wrong you have switched up on gauging success. >>
I did say it would be the Sox and the Jays, correct indeed. Many baseball writers said the same thing. Who could have forseen the effect injuries would take on the Sox (I don't think they were necessarily done after the Yankee series, but they buried themselves the week following it when they could have made up most of the games they lost if they simply won a game or two). I have been a Sox fan since the mid 70's, and I can't remember a time when the entire team seemed like it was hurt - like this team. Not an excuse entirely, as they could have found a way to survive them, but they did not.
Anti-Yankee propoganda? Seems like you took a line from my book, there. Not that I'm denying it.
<< <i>Yes, and of course, we all know that the payroll is not a factor at all in the Yankees success. >>
Absolutely not. The deft touch of Joe Torre is solely responsible for any and all Yankee success. >>
Exactly.
<< <i>Turns out Cano had as many RBI's as Ortiz and Ramirez COMBINED. >>
Excuse me, but what are you talking about here? >>
I posted before the 5 game Yanks/Sox Fenways series that the guy to watchout for was Cano. You brushed him off. Turns out, you were wrong. He matched Ortiz/Ramirez RBI totals for that series. Not bad for 2Bagger eh? >>
Actually, it was 11-10, in favor of Ortiz/Manny, and Manny missed a game and a half with injury.
This season has definately been survival of the fittest. Yanks have had 3 huge players injured for nearly the entire season and they have fought to stay close to the top...and now that those players have settled in they are again a very strong team.
I think it says something for the Yanks farm system...why is it the Red Sox farm system couldnt do the same thing? Especially when these young guys have been so highly touted? Certainly much more highly touted than any of the young guys the Yanks have brought up the last couple of years.
I actually hoped the division would be settled in the last week of the season...I suppose it could still happen but they Bosox have given up...did they give up too soon? Seriously..they are only 6.5 games out of the wild card and they trade a big game pitcher in David Wells. There are still 27(?) games left? Thats plenty of time to get on a roll and one of the other teams to falter.
<< <i>This season has definately been survival of the fittest. Yanks have had 3 huge players injured for nearly the entire season and they have fought to stay close to the top...and now that those players have settled in they are again a very strong team.
I think it says something for the Yanks farm system...why is it the Red Sox farm system couldnt do the same thing? Especially when these young guys have been so highly touted? Certainly much more highly touted than any of the young guys the Yanks have brought up the last couple of years.
I actually hoped the division would be settled in the last week of the season...I suppose it could still happen but they Bosox have given up...did they give up too soon? Seriously..they are only 6.5 games out of the wild card and they trade a big game pitcher in David Wells. There are still 27(?) games left? Thats plenty of time to get on a roll and one of the other teams to falter.
I for one would be p*ssed if I was a Red Sox fan. >>
plus a bunch of our KEY guys have been hurt or out.
What would you say if Yanks were in the same position with Matsui, Sheffield, and Pavano out? And they have been out pretty much ALL season...the Bosox injuries, except maybe Wakefield? has been the longest term injury?
I'm a Sox fan and am not pissed. I don't blame the team's W-L record on injuries either. They just sucked in the second half, that's all there is to it. Pitching by starters or relievers other than Papelbon and Schilling, the always non-existent base running, batting (with a couple notable exceptions), hitting with RISP, hitting with men on and two outs, and that pretty much sums it up. Fielding was spectacular, best in years, but it doesn't win ball games, it merely gives you the opportunity to win the games at the plate -- and it didn't happen. Good teams will win at a respectable pace despite injuries, this team did not win without injuries or with injuries in the second half.
The Red Sox have been pathetic. Until today they lost 5 in a row to the team with the worst record in baseball. Its just not the same with the Red Sox not in the chase because every September I look forward to a knock em down drag em out AL East race. I agree with Barndog that you can't blame this on the injuries. Just look what the Yankees did with the rookies while Matsui and Sheffield have been out. Everybody thought the Yanks were dead.
"The answer was in the Patriots eyes. Gone were the swagger and c0ck sure smirks, replaced by downcast eyes and heads in hands. For his poise and leadership Eli Manning was named the game's MVP. The 2007 Giants were never perfect nor meant to be. They were fighters, scrappers....now they could be called something else, World Champions."
Comments
I actually like Bob Ryan's quote, though.
<< <i>It is a fact that this past 5 game massacre will be remembered for a very long time regardless the outcome of this year. >>
I respectfully disagree. If the Yanks don't do anything (make the playoffs, win in the playoffs etc.) I doubt it will have the significance of 1978. If the Sox turn things around, then certainly this will be forgotten soon enough. I think a lot will indeed depend on the outcome this year - right now, it was just an ugly weekend series where the Sox lost 5 games in a row.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>It is a fact that this past 5 game massacre will be remembered for a very long time regardless the outcome of this year. >>
Yes, yankee fans have been trying desperately to forget the biggest choke in baseball postseason history for 2 years now, a series in august is going to somehow help them forget that? >>
I thought the biggest choke in postseason history was Game 6 of the 1986 World Series?
METS 10TH: Backman made an out to left; Hernandez flied to
center; Carter singled to left; MITCHELL BATTED FOR AGUILERA;
Mitchell singled to center [Carter to second]; Knight singled to
center [Carter scored, Mitchell to third]; STANLEY REPLACED
SCHIRALDI (PITCHING); Stanley threw a wild pitch [Mitchell
scored, Knight to second]; Wilson reached on an error by Buckner
[Knight scored (unearned)]; 3 R, 3 H, 1 E, 1 LOB. Red Sox 5,
Mets 6.
Final Totals R H E LOB
Red Sox 5 13 3 14
Mets __ 6_ 8_2 _8 >>
Uh, nice try - but no. The only reason I bring this up again is because you asked, and because you seem to like pictures -
<< <i>
<< <i>It is a fact that this past 5 game massacre will be remembered for a very long time regardless the outcome of this year. >>
I respectfully disagree. If the Yanks don't do anything (make the playoffs, win in the playoffs etc.) I doubt it will have the significance of 1978. If the Sox turn things around, then certainly this will be forgotten soon enough. I think a lot will indeed depend on the outcome this year - right now, it was just an ugly weekend series where the Sox lost 5 games in a row. >>
I agree. The signifigance of that series is solely dependent on how the Yankees do from here on in. They dont make the playoffs it will be mostly forgotten, and certainly become irrelevant. They end up winning the world series, it will stand the test of time.
-- Yogi Berra
<< <i>
<< <i>It is a fact that this past 5 game massacre will be remembered for a very long time regardless the outcome of this year. >>
I respectfully disagree. If the Yanks don't do anything (make the playoffs, win in the playoffs etc.) I doubt it will have the significance of 1978. If the Sox turn things around, then certainly this will be forgotten soon enough. I think a lot will indeed depend on the outcome this year - right now, it was just an ugly weekend series where the Sox lost 5 games in a row. >>
The Yanks still have issues with their starting pitching...
Mussina will miss his next start.
RJ is terrible.
Wright is having control problems.
Wang has looked shaky in his last 3 starts.
Lidle could be their best starter right now. His K/9 for 2006 is a career high.
Other random thoughts...
The Red Sox are done. Not only is their starting pitching been awful, but their lineup is no longer the terror it once was from 2003-05. Their run/game is the lowest since 2002. No more Bill Mueller to kill the Yanks. Instead, Mike Lowell is making outs. Nixon and Varitek are injured. And Damon wears pinstripes. In their place: Wily Mo Pena, Coco Crisp, and Mirabell/Lopez. Of the replacements, only Pena is good. Manny and Ortiz are not enough.
The Yanks have figured out how to pitch to Youkilis. Throw him strikes. Youkilis, a.k.a. the "Greek God of Walks", is lacking in power. The Yanks and other teams are discovering this. If Youkilis gets on base, let him do it with his bat. Youkilis must get his power number up in the years ahead, or he'll become the next Scott Hatteberg.
Hindsight is 20/20. That said, the Beckett deal is just killing this team, perhaps for the next two seasons. Hanley Ramirez is hitting well playing most of his games in pitcher's parks. Anibal Sanchez is also doing well, but it's likely because of the pitcher's park and NL effect. Still, the Red Sox have uncertainty at SS and 2B for 2007.
I never liked the signing of Hideki Matusi. He's not a $13mil/yr player. Now that Melky Cabrera is playing and with Matsui's wrist injury, Matsui's contract becomes an albatross.
Two things buried the Bosox: Beckett's performance, and the Abreu trade. The Sox could have gotten Abreu if they tried. I'm not buying the "money" argument. Abreu is only costing the Yankees $4.1mil pro-rated for 2006 and $15mil for 2007. Nixon, Loretta, Cora, Lopez, Mirabelli, Wells, Foulke, Seanez, and Timlin are all not expected back next season, thus freeing up about $34.5mil in salary in 2007. Getting Abreu would have given Boston the division. Instead, his benefits go to the Yankees. W/o Abreu, Boston wins 4/5 in this series. Abreu is an on-base machine that was at the heart of most of the crooked numbers found in the innings boxes.
Photos of the 2006 Boston Massacre
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<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>It is a fact that this past 5 game massacre will be remembered for a very long time regardless the outcome of this year. >>
Yes, yankee fans have been trying desperately to forget the biggest choke in baseball postseason history for 2 years now, a series in august is going to somehow help them forget that? >>
I thought the biggest choke in postseason history was Game 6 of the 1986 World Series?
METS 10TH: Backman made an out to left; Hernandez flied to
center; Carter singled to left; MITCHELL BATTED FOR AGUILERA;
Mitchell singled to center [Carter to second]; Knight singled to
center [Carter scored, Mitchell to third]; STANLEY REPLACED
SCHIRALDI (PITCHING); Stanley threw a wild pitch [Mitchell
scored, Knight to second]; Wilson reached on an error by Buckner
[Knight scored (unearned)]; 3 R, 3 H, 1 E, 1 LOB. Red Sox 5,
Mets 6.
Final Totals R H E LOB
Red Sox 5 13 3 14
Mets __ 6_ 8_2 _8 >>
<< <i>Uh, nice try - but no. The only reason I bring this up again is because you asked, and because you seem to like pictures - >>
>>
Nice argument. "I say so" always works. Spoken like a true homer.
Which is more likely to happen, having a team beat another team 4 games in a row, or having a two run lead heading into their opponent's final at bat with 2 outs, nobody on, and down to their last strike?
Granted, the Yanks were the first team to blow a 3-0 series lead. But the Sox blew a sure World Championship by losing Game 6.
I freely admit that the 2004 ALCS was the greatest series choke in postseason history, but Game 6 was, without a doubt, the greatest single game choke in postseason history.
In any case, I lived and remembered seeing my team win six WS. Since 1923, the Yankees have set the record of championships with 26. Boston has six including only one in 86 years. This is more than enough to absorb the sting of 2004. Based on Manny and Ortiz both being in their 30s and the recent failures of management, it's going to be another long while before Boston celebrates another title.
Photos of the 2006 Boston Massacre
<< <i>I freely admit that the 2004 ALCS was the greatest series choke in postseason history, but Game 6 was, without a doubt, the greatest single game choke in postseason history. >>
How can you say that, when there was still game 7 to be played? Lame, lame, lame attempt at trying to spin. The yankees are known for having the greatest postseason collapse in the history of baseball. Period. It's not even a discussion.
<< <i>
<< <i>I freely admit that the 2004 ALCS was the greatest series choke in postseason history, but Game 6 was, without a doubt, the greatest single game choke in postseason history. >>
How can you say that, when there was still game 7 to be played? Lame, lame, lame attempt at trying to spin. The yankees are known for having the greatest postseason collapse in the history of baseball. Period. It's not even a discussion. >>
Another "I said so". There wouldn't have been a game seven if Boston had not defied astronomical odds by losing Game 6. In '04, the Yankees were simply beaten by a better Red Sox team and had no business being up 3-0.
Saying that the Yankees choked implies that the Sox were lucky to win becuase the Yanks got them off the hook. Why can't you just say that the Red Sox were simply the better team. I'll admit it. Moreover, the Yankees were lucky to beat Boston in the 2003 ALCS. I thought the Sox were the better team then too.
Speaking of lame, how 'bout them Mariners?
Photos of the 2006 Boston Massacre
<< <i>Still, the Red Sox have uncertainty at SS and 2B for 2007. >>
I like most of your post - but you lost me here. The Red Sox have a top prospect, Dustin Pedroia, who they actually had to call up Tuesday to replace Alex Gonzalez at SS because he went on the DL. Pedroia has long been expected to be the starting SS in 2007, and perhaps the reason Hanley Ramirez was expendible.
Also, when you factor in the 40% luxury tax the Yankees will have to pay MLB for Abreu, it will indeed cost them over $27 million for him, this year and next. The Sox, and rightly so, opted not to take that much of a burden. The Yanks are about the only team that could.
<< <i>Moreover, the Yankees were lucky to beat Boston in the 2003 ALCS. I thought the Sox were the better team then too >>
I'll never forget watching HGH hit those HR's in that game, presumably while still on the juice. Too bad, that was indeed the Sox year as well.
<< <i>Still, the Red Sox have uncertainty at SS and 2B for 2007. >>
<< <i>I like most of your post - but you lost me here. The Red Sox have a top prospect, Dustin Pedroia, who they actually had to call up Tuesday to replace Alex Gonzalez at SS because he went on the DL. Pedroia has long been expected to be the starting SS in 2007, and perhaps the reason Hanley Ramirez was expendible. >>
To clarify, I meant 2B/SS as a single entity. I know about Pedroia, but who plays next to him? Gonzalez and Loretta are gone since neither are worth their arbitration dollars.
<< <i>Also, when you factor in the 40% luxury tax the Yankees will have to pay MLB for Abreu, it will indeed cost them over $27 million for him, this year and next. The Sox, and rightly so, opted not to take that much of a burden. The Yanks are about the only team that could. >>
The Yanks had no choice. If they didn't get Abreu, they were dead. What made this more than a money deal was the way Cashman crafted this. He didn't panic and instead, waited patiently for Gillick to finsh trade talks with other teams. When the Phillies couldn't find any takers, Cashman swooped in and was in a position to dictate terms: Philly wanted NY to pay for Abreu's NT clause ($1.5mil) the Yanks said no, Cashman wanted Lidle in the deal, Philly offered Leiber instead. As I said earlier, Lidle is their best starting pitcher right now. Moreover, Philly wanted some of the top prospects and wound up with low "A" ball refuse.
There are other costs beside money. Theo and Co. are taking a beating right now in the talk shows and the media. Coco Crisp is getting booed because he's no Johnny Damon. Getting Abreu would have driven a stake into the heart of the Yankees and would have taken the pressure off of Crisp and the other younger players. As I said, the Sox are slated to shed over $34mil in salary for next season. And they were in a better position of getting Abreu than the Yankees. Heck, Francona even coached Abreu in Philly. Everyone saw first hand over the 5-game series just how valuable an asset Abreu is.
One more point. It appears unlikely that the Yankees will pick up Sheffield's $13mil option. If Mussina doesn't finish the season strong, the team will likely decline his $17mil option.
Photos of the 2006 Boston Massacre
<< <i>The Yanks had no choice. If they didn't get Abreu, they were dead. What made this more than a money deal was the way Cashman crafted this. He didn't panic and instead, waited patiently for Gillick to finsh trade talks with other teams. When the Phillies couldn't find any takers, Cashman swooped in and was in a position to dictate terms: Philly wanted NY to pay for Abreu's NT clause ($1.5mil) the Yanks said no, Cashman wanted Lidle in the deal, Philly offered Leiber instead. As I said earlier, Lidle is their best starting pitcher right now. Moreover, Philly wanted some of the top prospects and wound up with low "A" ball refuse.
>>
Good points. If there is one thing you can say about the Abreu deal, it did bring another starting pitcher to NY - and both NY and Boston need starting pitching desperately.
And, I cannot disagree with your assessment of what's going on with Theo at the moment in the press. He has held firm to his position not to trade young pitching, and many are now criticizing him for that. But, I still stand by it. For example, you don't think that last year several teams called the Sox asking about Papelbon, trying to give the Sox a hitter in return they might have used last year down the stretch? It would have only made them possibly last 4 games against Chicago rather than the three they did, and they'd be up a creek this season even worse than they are now. Wells is gone next season, Schilling will be 40, Wakefield isn't a young guy either, and Beckett has proven inconsistent at best so far - so, when the rest of the league is scrambling for pitching, we will hopefully have Lester, Hansen, Papelbon, and several other young arms who are ready to go - not thrown into the fire too early like now, but ready to pitch at the MLB level. As long as you build that, you can always acquire hitting.
<< <i>so, when the rest of the league is scrambling for pitching, we will hopefully have Lester, Hansen, Papelbon, and several other young arms who are ready to go - >>
I don't think I am alone in having zero faith in or hope for Hansen. He needs some serious development to achieve success at the AAA/ML level. College players couldn't hit him well because of his velocity. AAA and ML players eat straight fastballs over the middle of the plate for breakfast.
And, we need him to - hopefully, he can be closer material for the Sox before long, so Papelbon can go where he belongs - in the rotation.
This is the season of what
Now is the time of returning
With thought jewels polished and gleaming
Now is the time past believing
The child has relinquished the reign
Now is the test of the boomerang
Tossed in the night of redeeming
No more time to tell how
This is the season of what
Now is the time of returning
With thought jewels polished and gleaming
Now is the time past believing
The child has relinquished the reign
Now is the test of the boomerang
Tossed in the night of redeeming
Eight sided whispering hallelujah hatrack
Seven faced marble eye transitory dream doll
six proud walkers on jinglebell rainbow
Five men writing in fingers of gold
Four men tracking down the great white sperm whale
Three girls wait in a foreign dominion
Ride in the whale belly
Fade away in moonlight
Sink beneath the waters
to the coral sand below
Now is the time of returning
...or maybe to simplify for the " chaw-dah heads"... look up....see the wicked dark star ??
edited again:
run turtle run.
...aww shucks..better just haul ass turtle ..while you can
Good to hear positive news about Papi and I really hope Lester gets better for himself and his family.
Those two points aside, I have thoroughly enjoyed the Boston meltdown. Especially because a certain few have yelled all winter and spring about the divison going to the Sox and the Blue Jays in second .....
I am ready for those same peeps to totally ignore how wrong they have been ..... as they hop on the "well, the Yankees won't do well in the playoffs" crutch
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
-- Yogi Berra
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Dan
If that doesn't work,(and the yanks do indeed win in the playoffs) they can always fall back on the payroll being the highest.
Steve
wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong again.
All I have done is debate against all of these things that were absurdly untrue and am very happy to see the Red SOx crash and burn (Papi and Lester aside) into a mediocre team with a future that is bleak with its current leadership. We told you Coco Crisp was a bust from the beginning, we told you Damon would come back and kill you, we told you Beckett was over-rated ...... tru, tru, and true. Enjoy football season guys
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>Jerry, you sang all winter, spring, and early summer about how the Yankees starting pitching stinks, the middle relief stinks, the farm system is barron, management is clueless and not prepared for "where they are now", >>
Which still holds true, but the other teams were just worse
<< <i>Yes, and of course, we all know that the payroll is not a factor at all in the Yankees success. >>
Cry some more CTSox. Your the SAME person who said that the Sox shouldn't be worried about Robinson Cano; rebutting my statement that he's a huge factor. What did you know? Turns out Cano had as many RBI's as Ortiz and Ramirez COMBINED.
Robinson Cano
C. Mien Wang
Melky Cabrera
Scott Proctor
More to come....
Mark Mulder rookies
Chipper Jones rookies
Orlando Cabrera rookies
Lawrence Taylor
Sam Huff
Lavar Arrington
NY Giants
NY Yankees
NJ Nets
NJ Devils
1950s-1960s Topps NY Giants Team cards
Looking for Topps rookies as well.
References:
GregM13
VintageJeff
<< <i>Yes, and of course, we all know that the payroll is not a factor at all in the Yankees success. >>
Absolutely not. The deft touch of Joe Torre is solely responsible for any and all Yankee success.
We listened to Jerry alllll winter, spring, and early summer about how the Yankees starting pitching stinks, the middle relief stinks, the farm system is barron, management is clueless and not prepared for "where they are now", the Red Sox and Blue Jays will finish one two, etc, etc, etc.
As usual around here there is no tip of the cap .... there is just the oh so predictable run into the arms of the payroll argument. No matter how WRONG and WAY OFF these comments have been going all the way back to last November all the way up to the beginning of the Sox collapse. 8 months of post after post after post about the above things and now that the jig is up PAYROLL is the last hole to hide in.
I along with other Yankee fans have no fear of tiping the cap when the time is due.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>
<< <i>Yes, and of course, we all know that the payroll is not a factor at all in the Yankees success. >>
Absolutely not. The deft touch of Joe Torre is solely responsible for any and all Yankee success. >>
Exactly.
<< <i>Turns out Cano had as many RBI's as Ortiz and Ramirez COMBINED. >>
Excuse me, but what are you talking about here?
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>Believe me, Dan - when the season is over, I'll certainly tip my cap to the winner. I have no problem doing that. >>
Thats cool Jerry. The problem IS that you were talking ALL THE TIME about the Yankees not reaching the playoffs. Since last winter you were. You were talking about the Yankees finishing in 3rd place behind the Blue Jays and first place Red Sox. Forget about the World Series .... for 8 months you were feeding us all with anti Yankee propaganda about the pitching, the farm system, management, etc ..... thats all man. I just don't understand how now that all of that has turned out to be wrong you have switched up on gauging success.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Yes, I did say the pitching favored the Sox in that ill-fated series. Schilling and Wells held up their end, but the rest of the Sox staff picked the worst time to break down, completely. If you looked at the matchups on paper, before the series, I don't think that saying that was that far off base.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Yes, and of course, we all know that the payroll is not a factor at all in the Yankees success. >>
Absolutely not. The deft touch of Joe Torre is solely responsible for any and all Yankee success. >>
Exactly.
<< <i>Turns out Cano had as many RBI's as Ortiz and Ramirez COMBINED. >>
Excuse me, but what are you talking about here? >>
I posted before the 5 game Yanks/Sox Fenways series that the guy to watchout for was Cano. You brushed him off. Turns out, you were wrong. He matched Ortiz/Ramirez RBI totals for that series. Not bad for 2Bagger eh?
Mark Mulder rookies
Chipper Jones rookies
Orlando Cabrera rookies
Lawrence Taylor
Sam Huff
Lavar Arrington
NY Giants
NY Yankees
NJ Nets
NJ Devils
1950s-1960s Topps NY Giants Team cards
Looking for Topps rookies as well.
References:
GregM13
VintageJeff
<< <i>
<< <i>Believe me, Dan - when the season is over, I'll certainly tip my cap to the winner. I have no problem doing that. >>
Thats cool Jerry. The problem IS that you were talking ALL THE TIME about the Yankees not reaching the playoffs. Since last winter you were. You were talking about the Yankees finishing in 3rd place behind the Blue Jays and first place Red Sox. Forget about the World Series .... for 8 months you were feeding us all with anti Yankee propaganda about the pitching, the farm system, management, etc ..... thats all man. I just don't understand how now that all of that has turned out to be wrong you have switched up on gauging success. >>
I did say it would be the Sox and the Jays, correct indeed. Many baseball writers said the same thing. Who could have forseen the effect injuries would take on the Sox (I don't think they were necessarily done after the Yankee series, but they buried themselves the week following it when they could have made up most of the games they lost if they simply won a game or two). I have been a Sox fan since the mid 70's, and I can't remember a time when the entire team seemed like it was hurt - like this team. Not an excuse entirely, as they could have found a way to survive them, but they did not.
Anti-Yankee propoganda? Seems like you took a line from my book, there. Not that I'm denying it.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Yes, and of course, we all know that the payroll is not a factor at all in the Yankees success. >>
Absolutely not. The deft touch of Joe Torre is solely responsible for any and all Yankee success. >>
Exactly.
<< <i>Turns out Cano had as many RBI's as Ortiz and Ramirez COMBINED. >>
Excuse me, but what are you talking about here? >>
I posted before the 5 game Yanks/Sox Fenways series that the guy to watchout for was Cano. You brushed him off. Turns out, you were wrong. He matched Ortiz/Ramirez RBI totals for that series. Not bad for 2Bagger eh? >>
Actually, it was 11-10, in favor of Ortiz/Manny, and Manny missed a game and a half with injury.
But, I get your point.
I think it says something for the Yanks farm system...why is it the Red Sox farm system couldnt do the same thing? Especially when these young guys have been so highly touted? Certainly much more highly touted than any of the young guys the Yanks have brought up the last couple of years.
I actually hoped the division would be settled in the last week of the season...I suppose it could still happen but they Bosox have given up...did they give up too soon? Seriously..they are only 6.5 games out of the wild card and they trade a big game pitcher in David Wells. There are still 27(?) games left? Thats plenty of time to get on a roll and one of the other teams to falter.
I for one would be p*ssed if I was a Red Sox fan.
<< <i>This season has definately been survival of the fittest. Yanks have had 3 huge players injured for nearly the entire season and they have fought to stay close to the top...and now that those players have settled in they are again a very strong team.
I think it says something for the Yanks farm system...why is it the Red Sox farm system couldnt do the same thing? Especially when these young guys have been so highly touted? Certainly much more highly touted than any of the young guys the Yanks have brought up the last couple of years.
I actually hoped the division would be settled in the last week of the season...I suppose it could still happen but they Bosox have given up...did they give up too soon? Seriously..they are only 6.5 games out of the wild card and they trade a big game pitcher in David Wells. There are still 27(?) games left? Thats plenty of time to get on a roll and one of the other teams to falter.
I for one would be p*ssed if I was a Red Sox fan. >>
plus a bunch of our KEY guys have been hurt or out.
The Red Sox have been pathetic. Until today they lost 5 in a row to the team with the worst record in baseball. Its just not the same with the Red Sox not in the chase because every September I look forward to a knock em down drag em out AL East race. I agree with Barndog that you can't blame this on the injuries. Just look what the Yankees did with the rookies while Matsui and Sheffield have been out. Everybody thought the Yanks were dead.
"The answer was in the Patriots eyes. Gone were the swagger and c0ck sure smirks, replaced by downcast eyes and heads in hands. For his poise and leadership Eli Manning was named the game's MVP. The 2007 Giants were never perfect nor meant to be. They were fighters, scrappers....now they could be called something else, World Champions."