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The debate on what to do with SF and BS coins continues.

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  • DatentypeDatentype Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭
    very cool Roger! Thanks for the photos!
  • The summary of the data base mistakes in the two batches totaling 315 coins are as follows. Four coins are now properly designated in the data base as SF including the rb WV-P shown in the scan on this thread several pages back. Of the remaining 311 coins that show up in the pop report data base as MS coins when in fact they are SF coins include MN-P MS68 x 114, MN-P MS69 x 12, MN-D MS68 x 103, OR-P MS67 x 15, OR-P MS68 x 23, OR-P MS69 x 5, KS-P MS67 x 9, WV-P MS67 x 23, WV-P MS68 x 5, WV-P MS69 x 2.

    My analysis including the current pop report:
    14036 2005-P 25C Minnesota MS MS68 x 137, MS69 x 18, MS70 x 1. The MN-P MS pop report is still off by another missing bad batch or more since there is not a MN-P in MS70 and , there are not 23 MN-P in MS 68, and there are not 6 MN-P in MS69 derived by taking the difference between the summary of the two known bad batches and the pop report. image

    14037 2005-D 25C Minnesota MS68 x 117, MS69 x 1, MS70 x 0. The MN-D MS pop appears to me to be corrected by the known problem batches so there are 14 MN-D MS68 and one MN-D MS69.

    14038 2005-P 25C Oregon MS67 x 63, MS68 x 37, MS69 x 6, MS70 x 0. The OR-P MS pop appears to me to be corrected by the known problem batches so there are 48 OR-P x MS67, 14 x OR-P MS68, and 1 OR-P MS69.image

    14040 2005-P 25C Kansas MS67 x 35. The KS-P pop appears to me to be corrected by the known problem batches so there are 26 KS-P in MS67 and none higher.

    14042 2005-P 25C West Virginia MS67 x 108, MS68 x 6, MS69 x 2. The WV-P pop appears to me to be corrected by the known problem batches so there are 85 WV-P in MS67, one WV-P in MS68, and no WV-P in MS69.

    In summary there is still a rogue batch of MN-P out there to find while we await PCGS data base clean up of the two batches we found so far. John and Roger and everyone keep looking for a rogue MN-P we can track down the whole batch from. To my knowledge I know of four MN-P in MS68 and none higher.
    image

    edited: Miss-counted the OR-P in 67 and there are 15 incorrectly entered in the data base, not 12 as previously reported. Accidentally counted a MN-D in MS68 as a MN-P in MS68 because it was out of sequence in the P section of the print out so reduced by one MN-P in 68 and increased by one MN-D in 68 so the above analysis has been corrected to reflect that. All 311 coins are accounted for above. A summary of the third Rogue batch is almost completed by others now. dr
  • Doug, thank you for the pop info. Having manually inserted cert #'s to find the mistakes from pow's submission, I know how tedious this gets digging and digging. Its too bad we can't go back to ebay auction listings from the time of last years mint set release and look at the original coins first auctioned off from sellers other than Brian and David. The thought of another submission with bad data entry has crossed my mind as a possibility, but I never persued the issue. Maybe this weekend I will go back through some old teletrade auctions and see if I can find some more cert #s to verify. If memory serves me correctly, they marketed a lot of sf quarters there also.
  • Behind the scenes the SN of the rogue MN-P in MS70 has already been provided! Now if we can just get that invoice number that will save a lot of work inputting and tracking this batch. Go get em guys and if we cannot get an invoice number then one of us will have to do a one by one SN input off the PCGS web-site to determine the size and scope of the data base error for this batch. It is very possible other 2005 states and MM are also included in this batch of coins. dr
  • RegistryCoinRegistryCoin Posts: 5,117 ✭✭✭✭
    What a heck of a lot of legwork. Very, very commendable efforts - above and beyond... You all deserve much kudos from all those who will benefit - the collectors and especially PCGS. image
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,905 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I met with DH this afternoon and he got right into discussing the pop report clean up. His software is almost in place to fully resolve most of the open issues surrounding the pop report. He figures by the end of next week he will have the time (and technology) necessary to devote to clean most of it up. It was great news not only for the state quarters that are involved here, but, also for a number of other coin series affected which myself and others have been providing information to PCGS on.

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • Hi Mitch, and thank you for the update. It is nice to get a little reassurance that pcgs is taking steps to correct the problem. Did DH happen to meantion whether there might be the possibility of weighting the business strike coins differently than their more common satin finish counterparts? Just curious. By the way, I reinstated my registry set of business strike statehood quarters. I figure to hell with keeping my coins out of the registry over their politics. I'm proud of what I have been able to put together, and figure that those of us that are truly into this for the circulating examples of our coinage, and will know which of these are the true rarities. With the exception of the few sf 70's, most of the lower grades are pretty common.



  • mas3387mas3387 Posts: 1,491 ✭✭✭
    Doug,

    Outstanding job!!!!!!

    imageimageimageimage

    Good to know that somoene is all over getting this mess cleaned up image

  • mas3387mas3387 Posts: 1,491 ✭✭✭


    rb7557 Very impressive set of coins

    Great pic's, Thanks for sharing image

    Always nice to see pictures of the true Business Strike coins Vs. their more common SF counterparts





    << <i> I reinstated my registry set of business strike statehood quarters >>

    image



    << <i>Did DH happen to meantion whether there might be the possibility of weighting the business strike coins differently than their more common satin finish counterparts? >>



    Do you really think this topic came up image
  • mas3387mas3387 Posts: 1,491 ✭✭✭


    << <i>When a member pays a fee to PCGS for just the membership and pays the $199 for the platinum level they are suppose to get access to the population report. Coins are like any other commodities and the value is based on “supply vs. demand” economics. If a “hunter” finds and makes a MS 69 business strike coin and based on the population report from PCGS there is already let us say 30 coins in that grade with 3 better, based on the published rarity (or lack there of) from PCGS the “hunter” sells this coin for lets say $250 (fair market price for the number of coins already in grade). The “hunter” used the information that he was paying for (PGCS population reports) to determine the price he would charge for this coin. After the coin sold, PCGS corrected its population reports and the coin in question only had a population of let us say 4 coins in that grade with none better (talking about the MS 69 business strike that the “hunter” made). If the “hunter” had known that there were only 4 coins in grade with none better, he would have charged a higher price for his coin. The “hunter” then finds out that PCGS knew that the population reports were not accurate for several months and they did not correct them. The “hunter” had paid for access to the population reports in good faith, PCGS knew the reports were defective and took no corrective action in a timely manor; does PCGS have any liability to the “hunter” who sold his coin for far less then market value based on the erroneous population reports of PCGS? >>



    Tim

    Thanks for sharing another, brushed over, fantastic well explained scenario
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,905 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "Hi Mitch, and thank you for the update. It is nice to get a little reassurance that pcgs is taking steps to correct the problem. Did DH happen to meantion whether there might be the possibility of weighting the business strike coins differently than their more common satin finish counterparts? Just curious. By the way, I reinstated my registry set of business strike statehood quarters. I figure to hell with keeping my coins out of the registry over their politics. I'm proud of what I have been able to put together, and figure that those of us that are truly into this for the circulating examples of our coinage, and will know which of these are the true rarities. With the exception of the few sf 70's, most of the lower grades are pretty common."

    Roger: The topic of state quarter weights never came up (at this meeting); HOWEVER, the topic of Roosie Dime weights did for your information. The draft weighting for the Roosie series for BANDS is near complete - a project started back around the FUN show in 1/06. DH will be reviewing proposed weights for BOTH silver and clad Roosies later this month.

    Good to see you back up with the non-SF coins.

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • Mitch, I can always hope. If the Roosey series is being reevaluated, it makes one believe that eventually it will happen with the SHQ series. If not due to the release of satin finish coins, then possibly later on as the registry evolves from what it is now, to what it will be in the future. Thanks for the info.


    Thank you for the kind words mas, and, let's see here. There was something else. Musta slipped my old and feeble mind.






























    OH YEAH, it might have been this:

    image
    Pretty nice coin. The scuff on Washingtons cheek isn't near as bad as it looks in the pic. The angle of the bright lighting was just right to bring it out with a lot of definition. There is a lot of solid detail to this coin, especially on the reverse.


    imageimage

    Yeah, that's was it mas. Thank you for the nice coin!

    For those of you with dial up connections, I appologize. I know these were big.
  • mas3387mas3387 Posts: 1,491 ✭✭✭
    rb7557

    Getting to be a real pro with the camera, image

    Thanks for sharing
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,905 ✭✭✭✭✭
    For those interested, I believe the 2005-P Kansas (non-SF) pop in MS67 mushroomed to -62- coins today. It is possible the pop could drop a bit -- I have noticed that at times in the recent past the Registry numbers listed may include those coins that get graded prior to the final verification stage in bulk orders. But, still no MS68 KS(p) - the hunt continues.

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • Thanks for the update Mitch. I found another KS-P in 67 and just got grading results bringing my total to five KS-P in MS67 and none higher so this date really kicked me around. As with all moderns the trick is finding a large unsearched quantity of early die strike barely handled before searched material. Keep looking everyone..... the financial reward is there for the person that finds this undiscovered treasure trove. It no doubt existed in the early strike days of the new KS-P but often these treasures go into circulation unnoticed and I hope there is still a gemmy supply out there somewhere. I have done more than my share of the searching for the KS-P in 68. Remember at least 9 KS-P in the data base as MS67 from the two rogue batches I analyzed are actually SF and there is a third batch discovered that will be summarized soon and it remains to be seen whether any other than MN-P are involved in that third batch. dr
  • Hey dr, that's the best news I've heard all day, third batch found and possibly the end to the pop mistakes. Way to go!!!image
  • The data base error problem has now been completely accounted for with the discovery of the MN-P in MS70 S/N that led us to the third batch. Soon the final results will be posted on the thread and a complete list of the coins and serial numbers prepared for PCGS. A few of us have been summarizing independent of each other and we have now reconciled our differences 100% and as soon as the second party can verify independently the final count, results will be posted.

    Interesting that the data base error was composed of three sequential batches submitted by different parties so the data input person fouled up this entire run of S/N from 73689011 through 73689510 inclusive that included all three separate batches. Note that many of these S/N toward the end of the bulk batches they were submitted under say "RETURN" and I am told that those are ones that did not make the minimum grade but all the S/N show up on the hard copy print outs of the invoice numbers and this enabled us to match the entire sequence of S/N for these three foul batches from 73689011 thru 73689510 without exception even though those s/n with no grades assigned do not show up on the pop report or data base as they should not.

    Should have the final summary available very soon so keep posted! dr.










    imageimage
  • The "final word" ha...ha... on the pop report corrections and data base errors generated by the three sequential batches that were improperly entered into the data base that are actually SF coins in SF holders but appear as MS coins in the data base and pop report are as follow. Special thanks to Tesoro and rb7557 for their hurculean efforts that made all this possible. We will send a detailed list of all the coins affected along with the hard copy of the invoice printouts to PCGS to assist in their correction of the data base. We do not have the invoice number for the unknown batch but the serial numbers all lined up perfectly (the unknown submitter had a geat eye and all those coins met the minimum grade so each s/n is assigned to a graded coin so we know we got them all!)

    The total mistake coins involved are 354. MN-P MS67x19, MN-P MS68x131, MN-P MS69x18, MN-P MS70x1; MN-D MS68x103; OR-P MS67x15, OR-P MS68x23, OR-P MS69x5; KS-P MS67x9, WV-P MS67x23, WV-P MS68X5, WV-P MS69X2 = 354 COINS.

    In summary the cert numbers affected are BRC 73689011 - 73689368, Unknown New Batch 73689369 - 73689410, and POW batch 73689411 - 73689510. Many of the serial numbers in this range were for coins that did not meet the minimum grade so will come up as invalid but they were assigned to these rogue batches so are listed to show the complete sequence of s/n. Four coins in this range of s/n are now correctly designated as SF and the other 354 coins constitute the error and must be corrected. The road map for PCGS to folloow will never be any better than this detailed coin by coin list we are sending so I hope to see some action soon. Thanks to all that supported and contributed to this effort. With this new and final information the stated pop report may be adjusted to see the actual pop report by simply subtracting off the error coins per the summary from the stated MS pop report and adding them to the SF coins in the pop report. dr

    image
  • mas3387mas3387 Posts: 1,491 ✭✭✭
    Another week gone by, Pop report still looks the same image


  • My complete report and analysis with hard copies is being sent overnight via DHL tracking number 45349884742 to PCGS attn: David Hall so they will have this by Wednesday April 12, 2006. The consecutive serial number listing is enough for them to fix this though, the hard copy report is merely a formality to document the delivery. dr
  • TACloughTAClough Posts: 1,598


    << <i>Tim: I did yesterday and DH told he would consider it. He basically said it would have to be carefully considered as (AND THIS IS MY INTERPRETATION OF WHAT HE WAS SAYING) nothing was going to happen on a "knee jerk" reaction. I also asked him again about the State Quarter variety set and it looks like that is also moving along, but, again, in a careful, deliberate manner. I also spoke with one of the parties involved in the clean up of the pops. Basically, it is moving along as well. I'll continue to provide some "gentle reminders" on these subjects and, whatever Doug is doing sounds good as well. >>



    Any updates? Maybe it is time for another "gentle reminder" for a clean up of the population reports, Uncle Sam even moves faster then this. I still have a couple of pairs of orphans (2005 & 2006) business strike Kennedys that need a home in my son's complete set.

    Timimage
  • mas3387mas3387 Posts: 1,491 ✭✭✭
    Maybe they are back up with all those crack out cert tags that get returned?
  • as MAS3387 say a week ago -
    Another week and ------ no results Any one in CA volunteer for some IT work
  • TACloughTAClough Posts: 1,598


    << <i>Any updates? Maybe it is time for another "gentle reminder" for a clean up of the population reports, Uncle Sam even moves faster then this. I still have a couple of pairs of orphans (2005 & 2006) business strike Kennedys that need a home in my son's complete set. >>



    Still waiting.image

    Tim
  • mas3387mas3387 Posts: 1,491 ✭✭✭


    << <i>orphans (2005 & 2006) business strike Kennedys >>



    Still waiting on a home for these guys imageimage

    I remember reading a set was in the works image

  • months and months go by without any changes. Pretty poor showing for a very simple data entry fix.

    By the way, I wanted to let everyone know that I have listed all 2005-2006 PCGS MS67 Business Strike quarters
    in the B/S/T forum at PCGS board friendly prices. Please take a look and PM me if you have any interest.


    Thanks for looking.
  • TACloughTAClough Posts: 1,598
    Until PCGS gives a home in the Registry for them, I figured a good name that applies to them is "orphans coins (2005 & 2006) business strike Kennedys ".

    I'm thinking about sending an email to D. Hall requesting the lingo page of definitions be updated to include "Orphan Coins" (U.S. coins issued that do not have a slot in a PCGS Registry Set).


    Timimage
  • mas3387mas3387 Posts: 1,491 ✭✭✭


    << <i>By the way, I wanted to let everyone know that I have listed all 2005-2006 PCGS MS67 Business Strike quarters in the B/S/T forum at PCGS board friendly prices. Please take a look and PM me if you have any interest. >>





    Since we're here to push sales. We also have most if not all Business Strike State Quarters available. Feel free to stop by our Ebay Store, link below. Many coins do not make it to our store so if you need a State Quarter (1999 - Present) not listed feel free to send us a PM, we will work with board members on pricing.

    Next image
  • XXXXXX Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭
    MAS3387....You know what SHQ's I need ...Just send them to me. I have had it with looking at coins. image

    PM me for my IRA account number. I might as well just buy them all now. Thanks, Walt
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,905 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "Next"

    OK - Here are some "board friendly" prices on some 2005/06 non-SF MS67 quarters I have in hand (paypal fine; free shipping in US, while supply lasts). Other states coming to me soon - just PM if you need any others:

    2005(d) KS: $29.95
    2005(d) WV: $46.95
    2006(d) NV: $37.95

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • mas3387mas3387 Posts: 1,491 ✭✭✭
    So much fun

    imageimageimageimage
  • Wondercoin: Where are the 68's to cram down everyone's throats? Unless you made that P-KS-68 on the Pop??? image

    (Don't take it too serious; This is supposed to be funny guys!)
    Seth
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,905 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Seth: Come on - you are just "hurting" from that bet we made 300 posts ago image

    Glad to see that pop 1 finally - so, who is taking credit for the work?

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.


  • << <i>Seth: Come on - you are just "hurting" from that bet we made 300 posts ago image Glad to see that pop 1 finally - so, who is taking credit for the work? Wondercoin >>



    $300 isn't too bad is it? It's not $400, but the makers might not have broken even on their search. I'm satisfied with the outcome.

    Credit? Not me, but wouldn't we all like to know?? It would be nice if someone wanted to cram it down my throat though. image

    I'm just ribbing you Mitch. So who done it?
    Seth
  • mas3387mas3387 Posts: 1,491 ✭✭✭
    image
  • "So who done it? " Been asking myself that one since it was made. I would bite the hand that "feeds" with that one, no cramming needed! So where are all the WV- p quarters in 68? That's a pop 1 coin also isn't it?

    In the meantime, comon PCGS, how about getting out of the slow lane and getting to work on the pops! All the work has been done, and handed to you on a silver platter. Is it that complicated to figure out at this point?
  • I agree with rb.
  • Mr Wondercoin

    Any word on if and when the database errors will be corrected?

    Any information on if and when the new registry set requiring business strike coins to be started? The orphanage is getting more crowded every 10 weeks.

    Will you be getting any 2006 MS68s. I understand they are quite rare.

    Thanks for any update
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,905 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mr Wondercoin. Any word on if and when the database errors will be corrected? AS YOU KNOW, ALL THE BACK UP DOCUMENTATION IS IN PCGS' HANDS RIGHT NOW.

    Any information on if and when the new registry set requiring business strike coins to be started? The orphanage is getting more crowded every 10 weeks. I HAVE ASKED PCGS MANY TIMES AND THEY TELL ME THEY ARE CLOSE TO HAVING IT READY TO GO.

    Will you be getting any 2006 MS68s. I understand they are quite rare. FROM MY EARLY REVIEW OF THE 2006 COINS, IT APPEARS TO ME AT THIS POINT (REPEAT, AT THIS POINT) THE NV(d) MS68 WILL BE A "MAKABLE" COIN AND NOT TERRIBLY "RARE". ON THE OTHER HAND, THE NV(p) M68 MAY BE VERY DIFFICULT TO LAND. HAPPY HUNTING!

    Wondercoin.

    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • mas3387mas3387 Posts: 1,491 ✭✭✭
    Where's the board police??? All caps I was told is screaming/yelling. image
  • The package was delivered to PCGS as shown by the following tracking information from the DHL website. dr

    Track results detail
    Tracking results detail for 45349884742 Help

    Tracking summary
    Current Status Shipment delivered.
    View Signature

    Delivered on 4/11/2006 10:23 am
    Delivered to Receptionist
    Signed for by PRESLEYWhat is this?

    Tracking history Help

    Date and Time Status Location
    4/11/2006 10:23 am Shipment delivered. Irvine, CA
    6:27 am Arrived at DHL facility. Irvine, CA
    4/10/2006 11:44 pm Transit through sort facility. March Air Force Base, Riverside, CA
    5:36 pm Departing origin. Spokane, WA
    4:10 pm Picked Up by DHL. Shipper's Door
    Ship From:
    Doug Rall
    Coeur D Alene, ID 83814
    United States
    Ship To:
    PCGS
    Santa Ana, CA 92705
    United States
    Shipment Information:
    Ship date: 4/10/2006
    Pieces: 1
    Total weight: 5 lbs *

    Attention:
    PCGS
    Ship Type: Package

    Shipment Reference:
    Service: Next Day
    Special Service:

    Description:

    Tracking detail provided by DHL: 4/22/2006, 6:09:39 pm pt.

    Track new shipment

    You are authorized to use DHL tracking systems solely to track shipments tendered by or for you to DHL. Any other use of DHL tracking systems and information is strictly prohibited.
    image
  • Delivered on 4/11/2006 10:23 am
    Delivered to Receptionist
    Signed for by PRESLEY

    It appears Elvis has left the building and has not returned this week.
  • I'm dreaming of a corrected pop report......... Hey, can this be found in a local crack house with the help of a pipe? Ok, maybe it's not that bad, but still, it won't be too much longer and the 06 mint sets will be out. Will pcgs beat the release date? At the pace they are going, I think..............





    NOT!!!!!!
  • TACloughTAClough Posts: 1,598
    I'm ready to say the "hell" with the population reports. I just want a home for my " orphans "! I know that we all agreed that the population reports should be first, but my little guys are out in the cold and they are multiplingimage. If PCGS would just create four slots in the complete Kenedy set, two for business strikes 2005 and two for business strikes 2006, my "orphans" would be happy being with all of their brothers.image

    Timimage

    Edit to add:
    Mitch: For the orphans, could you give Mr. Hall another "gentle reminder" or a slap upside the head. image It would be for the orphans!image
  • LindeDadLindeDad Posts: 18,766 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image
    I have soom to go in the other #3 set.
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,905 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "Mitch: For the orphans, could you give Mr. Hall another "gentle reminder" or a slap upside the head. It would be for the orphans!"

    Tim: "I feel your pain". I'll do it for the "orphans" (the former request, not the latter).

    Wondercoin


    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • mas3387mas3387 Posts: 1,491 ✭✭✭
    Now just 2 posts shy of 600!!!!

    Would be nice to see all the hard work done by many to help fix the pop report pay off and see a place in the registry for Tim's orphans. I'm sure there are many of these little orphans in need of a home!!!
  • TACloughTAClough Posts: 1,598
    599: We will let Mitch have the 600th post.image
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,905 ✭✭✭✭✭
    600.

    Let's see some progress before we get to 700!

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
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