DH, don't think for a minute that Damon's leaving had anything to do with "wanting to win another WS". Boras led him around like a puppy, and showed him where the most money was. He also convinced him that the Sox offerring less money was a sign that they probably did not "respect" him - so, off he went.
It's easy to bash Damon for this, but I think this move will ultimately cost him more than he realizes. Yank fans pretty much hated him for the last several years, now they like him because they feel he jumped ship from the enemy, but if he fails to produce this season or allows too many runners to run crazy on him from deep center in Yankee Stadium, the fans there will turn on him faster than they have ever turned on a player before. And, there's no going "home" for him, again. Good luck, JD.
<< <i>, but if he fails to produce this season or allows too many runners to run crazy on him from deep center in Yankee Stadium, the fans there will turn on him faster than they have ever turned on a player before. And, there's no going "home" for him, again. Good luck, JD. >>
Johnny Damons arm right now is no worse than Bernie Williams arm was at its best. Bernie Williams played a very solid center field for 10 years at Yankee Stadium with one of the weakest arms in baseball. Johnny Damon will earn his pay running down fly balls and setting the table for Jeter, A-Rod, Sheffield, etc.
Saying Damon is as good as Bernie in the outfield isn't really a compliment.
If there's so much pitching out there, as DH implies, why aren't they making moves for it? And what makes anyone think the yankees put any emphasis on their starting pitching? Have there been many moves in the last few years that would indicate this?
<< <i>Saying Damon is as good as Bernie in the outfield isn't really a compliment.
If there's so much pitching out there, as DH implies, why aren't they making moves for it? And what makes anyone think the yankees put any emphasis on their starting pitching? Have there been many moves in the last few years that would indicate this? >>
no compliment intended, The POINT is that the Yankees managed to play in 6 World Series with a center fielder with a horrible arm. Now all of the sudden it is an issue because Johnny Damon has that horrible arm too.
You don't think the Yankees put emphasis on pitching? That is crazy talk. The Yankee hater expects MORE OUT OF THE YANKEES than the fans do. What do you want the Yankees to do Ax, pull Walter johnson, Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Nolan Ryan, out of their ass?
The past "few" years the Yankees have traded for Javier Vazquez, signed Kevin Brown, signed Carl Pavano, brought up a very good rookie in Chien-Ming Wang, traded for a solid performance from Shawn Chacon, signed Jaret Wright, had Aaron Small to pull out of their rear ends to go 10-0 down the stretch last year, signed Jose Contreras, traded for Randy Johnson, et, etc, etc .... and this is just work on the rotation, let alone the bullpen in which the Yankees are ALWAYS trying to find a decent formula to Mariano Rivera.
SOME of these moves have been very good, SOME of them have not worked out. The Yankees tend to their pitching needs as much as any team. And just like EVERY team in baseball besides the White Sox probably, the Yankees have pitching problems.
your whole 'yankee hater' schtick is growing very, very old. You hold those of us who despise the unfair advantage the yankees have in baseball as being so biased we cannot see objectively. I would like to say that YOU, too, are far too close to the matter to be objective as well.
Did I say they had to go sign all stars? Uhm, no, but when your staff era is over 4.50, your team needs help. When you fail to address it, and your big signing is yet ANOTHER all star in the lineup, don't you see that as odd?
Of course you don't, because to you, the yankees can do no wrong. Every move they make is brilliant, and there have been NO pitching free agents this year that were better than anyone on the staff.
I give up with you on this...you are so damn close to it that you can't step back and see the yankees are going to suffer AGAIN.
your whole 'yankee hater' schtick is growing very, very old. You hold those of us who despise the unfair advantage the yankees have in baseball as being so biased we cannot see objectively. I would like to say that YOU, too, are far too close to the matter to be objective as well.
Did I say they had to go sign all stars? Uhm, no, but when your staff era is over 4.50, your team needs help. When you fail to address it, and your big signing is yet ANOTHER all star in the lineup, don't you see that as odd?
Of course you don't, because to you, the yankees can do no wrong. Every move they make is brilliant, and there have been NO pitching free agents this year that were better than anyone on the staff.
I give up with you on this...you are so damn close to it that you can't step back and see the yankees are going to suffer AGAIN. >>
your whole 'yankee hater' schtick is growing very, very old. You hold those of us who despise the unfair advantage the yankees have in baseball as being so biased we cannot see objectively. I would like to say that YOU, too, are far too close to the matter to be objective as well.
Did I say they had to go sign all stars? Uhm, no, but when your staff era is over 4.50, your team needs help. When you fail to address it, and your big signing is yet ANOTHER all star in the lineup, don't you see that as odd?
Of course you don't, because to you, the yankees can do no wrong. Every move they make is brilliant, and there have been NO pitching free agents this year that were better than anyone on the staff.
I give up with you on this...you are so damn close to it that you can't step back and see the yankees are going to suffer AGAIN. >>
yep, instead of constructive debate you sink to the this level ........... AGAIN
NOWHERE have I ever said, or implied that EVERY move the Yankees make is brilliant. Just another made up line of BS to suit your needs of the moment.
You don't think the Yankees put emphasis on pitching? That is crazy talk. The Yankee hater expects MORE OUT OF THE YANKEES than the fans do. What do you want the Yankees to do Ax, pull Walter johnson, Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Nolan Ryan, out of their ass? . >>
Not even the Yankees have enough $$$ for THAT@@!!!!!
The Yankees will make some moves for pitching. What a bunch of clowns that suggest getting Jonny Damon (ahhh..panty soiled Sox fans) is the key move for the Yankees.
Scott Boras dragged Jonny Damon to the Yanks? That's a belly laugh - CTSOXFAN.....he is a mature individual with his own thought process. You have been watching too much of Arliss on HBO and think it's reality.
Who's next to jump ship...Manny?
Proud of my 16x20 autographed and framed collection - all signed in person. Not big on modern - I'm stuck in the past!
Saying Boras "dragged" him isn't what I meant - but no doubt he played a role in painting a rosier picture for Damon going to NY, than the reality of it will prove to be. Damon is still responsible for the move, of course.
I still don't think Manny is leaving - but I am intrigued by the Manny for Tejada rumours...
"From the Yankees' point of view, the signing of Damon is a dual coup, strengthening their attack while, at the same time, weakening the enemy."
Yup, yup, yup
"Center field has long been the glamour position for the Yankees, manned for the past eight decades by the great and near great. Where does Damon fit in this pantheon?
One could make the case that he will be the third best center fielder in Yankees' history, eclipsed only by Yankee deities Joe DiMaggio and Mickey Mantle and compared favorably to any other who patrolled the position in Yankee Stadium.
Bernie Williams had more power, a higher lifetime batting average and a higher on-base percentage, but Damon still has some productive years left. Mickey Rivers was a Yankee only three and a half seasons, never had 200 hits or scored 100 runs.
The player closest to Damon was Earle Combs of the Murderer's Row Yankees of Ruth and Gehrig in the 1920s, both left-handed hitting center fielders and leadoff batters. Combs was 6 feet tall and 185 pounds, Damon is 6 feet, 175 pounds. They are similar also in style, playing with passion and all-out daring (Combs' career was cut short when he banged into the center field wall at Sportsman's Park in St. Louis)."
Ok, there absolutely has to be a line drawn when considering the list of "best" centerfielders to ever play for the Yankees. I think it is a royal slap in the face to Bernie Williams to even mention that Damon might be the 3rd best centerfielder who ever played for them. Are people forgetting just how good Bernie was for this team for so many years, or are memories so short that they can only remember the last season or 2 during his decline ? Bernie had 8 consecutive seasons in which he batted over .300, and was WELL over the .300 mark for his career until the past 2 seasons(much the same way Mantle ended his careeer).Damon had only 4 seasons in which he batter .300, none of which were as high as Bernies 4 best yrs, which were .328, .339, .342, and .333. Bernie hit over 20 hr's 7 times to Damons 1, and has well over twice as many for his career. His RBI total has been higher, but Damon was a leadoff hitter, so that is a wash. Bernies on base pct. is WAY above Damons career. His walk total and average per season is way above Damons ( which not only helps Bernies case, but hurts Damons twofold due to him being a leadoff hitter who is supposed to work walks). Bernie has 2 200 hit seasons to Damons 1 ( with Damon consistently getting more AB's). The ONLY thing Damon has more of are steals.
All those offensive stats do not even account for Bernies stellar, consistent performance in the postseason for so many years. He also played in 5 all star games ( all consecutive, exemplifying consistency) to Damon's 2 A.S. appearances. And Bernie also won 4 consecutive Gold Glove awards ( Damon has ZERO ). Bernie won a batting title, Damon has not. Bernie hit from both sides of the plate for average, and often power. He also was a member of the highest profile team in sports and was nothing but a model of grace, style, poise, character, and class. He performed and acted exactly how I would want my child to act, on the field, and in life during his entire run in NY.
I have always had a fair amount of admiration for Damon, going back to his first games at Yankee stadium while as a rookie with the Royals, where he made some great hustling plays against them, to even recently, as it seemed he was a catalyst for the solid team work that went into the Sox championship. I just cannot see, in any light, the thought that he is even close to the overall player on and off the field that Bernie Willams was for the Yankees for so many years.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
bri, good job. The only similarity between the two is that they both have crap arms. Bernie was a much different player than Damon. Williams was a middle of the lineup force for many years and played a very good center field considering his rag arm. Williams could fly from first to third like a deer but was a below average "base runner" With all of his speed he could never learn how to steal a base. No knock on him, just the way he is. Damon is the leadoff man the Yankees have been looking for to set the table for a fearsome lineup. No way Damon will ever be to the Yankees what Bernie Williams was BUT he should fit very nicely on top of that lineup. Damon as scored 100+ runs in 8 consecutive seasons. Alot of guys are talking about his age, breaking down, etc. By all accounts, Damon is in very good shape and will STILL be 35 years old when this deal ENDS.
bri2327, very good take on Bernie. Fans forget how good Bernie was and meant to the Yankees. Surpassing Joe DiMaggio on the Yankee hit list is no small feat. Unfortunately people thought that Bernie was going to hit .300+, belt 20+ homers, and have 100+ RBI's for years. Bernie went downhill fast.
<< <i>The Yankees will make some moves for pitching. What a bunch of clowns that suggest getting Jonny Damon (ahhh..panty soiled Sox fans) is the key move for the Yankees. >>
Really? What moves might these be? I've been hearing over and over from yankee 'fans' there's no pitching out there, then we hear they are going to make some moves for pitching. Which is it? And the only ones with soiled panties are these yankee lovahs who think Damon is going to somehow win them more games, instead of looking at how bad that pitching staff is and working on upgrading it.
<< <i> Scott Boras dragged Jonny Damon to the Yanks? That's a belly laugh - CTSOXFAN.....he is a mature individual with his own thought process. You have been watching too much of Arliss on HBO and think it's reality. >>
Why don't you do a little background check of Boras' other clients, and find out what their signings all had in common - they always signed for the MAX dollar, loyalties to their previous teams be damned. Yes Damon had to sign the contract, but you can bet your shirt that Boras was pushing him in that direction.
Another way to look at Bernie, rather than as a player who went downhill fast, would be to say that he was a player who got off to a slow start. Bernie really didnt play anywhere close to a full season in the majors until 1993, when he was 25 years old, and didnt fully establish himself as a top of the line, all star caliber player until 1995, when at the age of 27 he batted over .300 for the first of 8 straight seasons.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
Axtell - your two cents worth of anatgonism confirms exactly what I had to say. So why do you post it as if it is in opposition to what I had to say? That is why you are a jerkweed. Your are clueless. Stick your trigger finger back in your pants and massage yourself.
Proud of my 16x20 autographed and framed collection - all signed in person. Not big on modern - I'm stuck in the past!
Despite all the attention paid to him, however, Damon is not a superstar, or arguably even a star. He was a consistent five-to-six win player in his four years with the Red Sox, a period that covered his age-28 through age-31 seasons. Durability and consistency were his strong suits, rather than any particular element of his game, and he does have fairly good speed. His peak season, 2004, featured a .304/.380/.477 line and 6.7 WARP, notable as much for how it ended--in a Red Sox championship--as for its value. Damon looks like a lesser version of the center fielder the Yankees recently became so disenchanted with. At 31, Bernie Williams hit .307/.391/.566 and posted a 6.7 WARP in the second year of his seven-year contract. He would decline in a straight line from that point, especially on defense, to become a shell of his former self at 34 and 35. Damon has an significant speed edge on Williams, and is unlikely to decline as sharply on defense as Williams did (few players have). Neither player has a good arm; Damon is one of the few replacements for Williams the Yankees could have acquired who doesn’t provide much of an upgrade in their center-field throwing. Damon, like Nomar Garciaparra, got a big boost from Fenway Park, on the order of 50 points of batting average and OBP the last three seasons. The Yankees aren’t really getting a .310/.370/.450 guy so much as they’re getting a .285/.345/.425 guy. It’s the difference between a star and a solution, or millions of dollars and a couple of wins a year.
Damon is, for now, exactly what the Yankees needed: A center fielder who could hit leadoff. Last year, Damon had 197 hits and 53 walks, including 51 extra-base hits, and now he will bat ahead of three players who might be Hall of Famers, eventually -- Derek Jeter, Alex Rodriguez and Gary Sheffield. He'll hit ahead of Jason Giambi and Hideki Matsui and Jorge Posada and Robinson Cano, and give the Yankees improved athleticism at a time when the team is starved for speed.
Run to glory? By reaching an agreement with Johnny Damon on Tuesday night, the Yankees will have five of the AL's top 12 run-scorers in their lineup next season. 1. Alex Rodriguez 124 2. Derek Jeter 122 3. David Ortiz 119 4. Johnny Damon 117 5. Michael Young 114 6. Chone Figgins 113 7. Manny Ramirez 112 7. Mark Teixeira 112 9. Ichiro Suzuki 111 9. Grady Sizemore 111 11. Hideki Matsui 108 12. Gary Sheffield 104
At the same time, the Damon deal is devastating for the Red Sox. They've seen other parts of their lineup undergo change, with the departure of Bill Mueller, the change at shortstop with the departure of Edgar Renteria. They had added proven veterans in Mike Lowell and Mark Loretta, but the lineup that had begun to take shape was filled with a lot of guys who can't run. As long as Damon was re-signed, to hit in front of David Ortiz and Ramirez, the key components of an offense that averaged six runs per game would remain in place.
What really seduces the Yankees is the trickle-down effect to the heart of the batting order. Damon and Jeter will create plenty of scoring opportunities for Gary Sheffield and Alex Rodriguez, Bernie Williams, who'll serve as DH in the No. 8 spot. Robinson Cano, who would've batted second had Damon not been signed, will drop to No. 9, which effectively gives manager Joe Torre three base stealers in succession.
It's a perfect storm, really: the Yankees now blend power and speed for less than it cost in 2005; the payroll is declining from $205 million to $175 million.
I post what I said because YOUR post was completely baseless (as usual).
You spout that the yankees 'will make some moves for pitching'? Huh? When is that gonna happen? You don't think if they were going to they would have, already?
I think it's YOU who's the mindless spitball in this joint. All the yankee fanatics have been spewing there's no pitching left to deal for (because the yankees wanted to 'steal' Damon), but then you come on saying they will make some moves.
Get real, jerk. You have NO idea what you're talking about (again, as usual).
Where was it written anywhere the yankees needed to score more runs?
And yes, let's say the yankees are a great team because they're 'only' spending $175 million this year ($50 million more than #2).
And yes, the yankees pitching staff is still going to STINK. >>
Did I say it was "written somewhere" that the Yankees needed to score more runs?
Axtell says the Yankee pitching staff will stink. Well, in anti NY all the time Axtell translation that means that the Yankees starting staff will most likely reside in the middle of the pack in the American League again. Unless of course Carl Pavano bounces back, Wang is for real, Mussina is Mussina, Johnson bounces back with a better year. If just two of these happen, axtell is going to have his hateful hands full.
Certain people.....particularly certain yankee haters, come on here complaining that all the yankees do is go out and overspend for mediocre, overpriced, overaged talant, and yet at the same time, argue that they havnt done anything about pitching this offseason.
Well, you cant have it both ways. What are you saying the yankees should do ?? Go out and pay a crazy price for a starting pitcher just becuase they need pitching ? If there is no legitimate top flight starter to answer their problem, then why bother ? Wouldnt going out and paying 13 or 14 million a yr for one of this offseasons weak talent pool just be adding to the "haters" arguing point that they overspend for garbage ? It would seem to me that the formula regarding starting pitching this year for the Yankees is an intelligent one. If it aint there, dont try to make something out of nothing.
Sure, they need pitching, yankee haters know that, but probably not nearly as well as yankee fans know that. They are holding back from acquiring that high priced, low value guy ( see pavano, wright) and taking their chances with what they have. If it works, good, if not, ohh well, life will go on.
Either way, you haters cant have it both ways. Dont complain about them buying everything, including junk, and then turn around and complain when they dont.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
It has been obvious that the prospects for picking up a good starting pitcher were slim to none this off season. But, the Yankees get slammed for signing a center fielder AND leadoff man when these were two of the biggest holes on the team. I don't get it as much as you don't bri.
<< <i>It would seem to me that the formula regarding starting pitching this year for the Yankees is an intelligent one. If it aint there, dont try to make something out of nothing. >>
Say what? Intelligent is the word you would use to describe a Yankee team with a massive payroll, but a shoddy patchwork pitching staff? It actually amuses the anti-Yankee fan to see how bad Yankee pitching has become (except for Rivera, of course. Take him away, the Yanks win 10-15 less games last year).
<< <i>If it works, good, if not, ohh well, life will go on >>
Somehow, I don't think this is Steinbrenner's philosophy. Not even close. It kills him every year to see the Yanks outspend the world in an effort to secure a WS title, yet they come up empty. Problem is, the money is clearly not being spent wisely, for example - Damon.
<< <i> Somehow, I don't think this is Steinbrenner's philosophy. Not even close. It kills him every year to see the Yanks outspend the world in an effort to secure a WS title, yet they come up empty. Problem is, the money is clearly not being spent wisely, for example - Damon. >>
Again, two of the BIGGEST holes on the Yankees this off season were center field and someone to leadoff so that Jeter could go back to the two hole were he belongs. This gives the Yankees a alot of speed ahead of A-Rod, SHeffield, Matsui, etc. Not to mention Robinson Cano who instead of hitting in that two slot will now bat ninth. Money not spent wisely? Nope.
Secondly, you call the Yankee staff a "patchwork" rotation. If you put that staff in ANY uniform besides the Yankees that rotation becomes solid. Certainly the staff has alot of questions, but besides the White Sox and even Blue Jays, EVERYBODY has a questionable rotation.
ctsoxfan, why dont you very slowly go back and re-read what I said. I did NOT say the Yankees have made the smartest moves regarding some moves the past few years.....I SAID that they were intelligent THIS year regarding their philosophy on starting pitching. Meaning that they did NOT do what they had done in the past, which was go out and overspend on a mediocre pitcher just because it was out there.....I SAID that because there was nothing worth getting, they didnt try to pursue one, and overpay for half rate pitching talent this year, which is an intelligent move.
Th problem is yankee haters like you cant breath for 2 seconds and listen or read properly. You have something to say when they go out and overspend on lousey pitching, but when they dont go out and sign a half talent pitcher you also have complaints about that.....again, you haters cant have it both ways........pick your battles, because regarding their non pursuit of low level starting pitching talent this offseason they DID have a very intelligent choice....they balked.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
I would think that Cashman is trying to improve that starting rotation. Doesnt mean that it should have already have happened.
But, lets say that they dont....by all means they are not doomed. And for the average pitching that may come about, Im sure the offense will pick up some of that slack. No, its not what you like to count on but thats the way it is.
Moose will be Moose, Johnson settled into NY the second half of the season and will be coming back with more to prove, hopefully Pavano and Wright do something worthwhile, and I think Chacon will fit in very nicely. It's really hard to judge Chacon...he came from Colorado. We all know what Colorado has done to pitchers...Mike Hampton will tell you. Regardless, Chacon has good stuff and like I said, could fit in quite nicely. Small has good stuff too if he can keep it out of the middle of the strike zone.
As far as the overall pitching staff? I think it has improved well. The middle relief they Yanks picked up were all pretty good moves. Great moves? no? maybe? yes?...but much better than the position they were in before. Though Sturtze wasnt as brilliant as the year before...lets not forget he can start if needed too. Sturtze has great stuff and will hopefully be a force again this year whether its in the bullpen or as a starter.
I hope no one was so naive to think that the ONLY moves Yanks should be making was for pitching. It has been obvious what holes the Yankees wanted to fill. Even signing Cairo is a good move. Cano is still a rookie and you need someone good to back him up.
So what if they Yankees get no more starters? I say it's a crapshoot but I dont see that they are in such a terrible position.
Axeriod - the man with the heavy fingers. By last account, opening day is about 3 months away. The way you go about attempting to impose your thoughts and lack of knowledge about things upon everyone else with your heavy handed style is your trademark. You rarely offer any insight about anything (especially baseball) other than your bombastic opinions and flailing counter punches against anyone who takes objection to your blather.
Let me teach you a little something about baseball. We can use the current topic of Yankee pitching as a case study. First off, there is no reason to believe that the Yankees are not interested in improving their pitching staff....they are. Because they have not made a MEGA DEAL by now to suit your fancy and twisted thinking is irrelevant. They made 3 additions to the pitching staff in December - Farnsworth, Villone and Dotel. Guess you missed that? Well, obviously...because you know not of what you speak. Not high profile additions, but additions for STRATEGIC REASONS, including future trades.
Secondly, I hope you may be astute enough to know that the Yankees have a significant roster of veteran starting and relief pitchers. Looks like they will let Brown and Leiter go to free agency. That still leaves a signed starting rotation of Johnson, Mussina, Wang, Wright and Pavano. That doesn't suck....but will be improved upon. Based on the facts that this rotation is veteran in years, and/or did not have stellar individual seasons in 2005, does not bode well for a major trade involving pitching talent at this juncture.
Next, we have a thing in baseball called "Spring Training." You may have heard of it. Besides getting players in shape, it presents an opportunity for players to demonstrate their abilities to not only the management of their club, but for all of baseball to see. Many decisions regarding final team rosters and trades are made as a result of spring training performance. This is the best opportunity for a team like the Yankees to make a move. If a Wright, Pavano and/or Wang have a strong spring...don't be surprised when you see them in the package for a stronger blue chip starter.
Finally, all deals that effect the outcome of a team's season do not have to occur before the season starts. There is a thing in baseball called the "trading deadline." Ever hear if it? Nevermind, look it up.
Proud of my 16x20 autographed and framed collection - all signed in person. Not big on modern - I'm stuck in the past!
As usual you contradict yourself. First, you say that the yankees haven't made any moves for pitching...that they will make their moves. Then you bring up three middle relievers? Huh? How are those moves going to help their starting rotation? As usual you make ZERO sense. Try pulling your wool over someone else's eyes.
I find it humorous that you have no vested interest in this discussion either way, other that to antogonize me. You clearly aren't a yankee fan (though you would certainly fit the mold (moody, bullyish, angry), and you don't see the yankees as leading to the eventual downfall of baseball as we know it. So why are you here, other than to argue with me?
Yankee 'fans' (and I use that term with the loosest possible definition) yell and scream that Damon 'Filled two holes! Leadoff and CF!' Well sparky, last time I checked, you had a leadoff man who you've been wetting your pants for years over (Jeter). Saying how great he was! How he was the best! Now you've signed Damon and you have to justify $13 million a year for a 32-year old, weak armed center fielder. So you cry out 'we got 2 for one!' like he's some bargain.
The funniest thing about all this is that yankee fans see nothing at all wrong with cheering for the man who was part of the team that crushed them. See nothing at all wrong with rooting for the enemy. Damon (by yankee fans accounts) was the 'face' of the red sox. Now you're cheering for him? Talk about selling your souls to the devil...
Hey, I guess you root for the yankees, you're used to it, huh?
<< <i>What a bunch of the usual off focus and inaccurate blather, Axroid. Disjointed nonsense...swinging away like a madman with a bag over his head. >>
Take the bag off your head. You are the ass who did not know they made some moves. Twist away with your inane responses. I hope you have learned a little bit about baseball.
Proud of my 16x20 autographed and framed collection - all signed in person. Not big on modern - I'm stuck in the past!
I am relatively new to the boards, and enjoy spirited sports talk as much as anyone, but I have to say that this clown may be the single most ignorant and annoying person I have ever come across. Any chance if everyone stops responding to him that he would just fade off into the sunset ? It doenst matter what subject is brought up, or who is right or wrong, or even what opinion you may have, he is going to find a way to argue with it and be a plain 'ol ass either way.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
After digesting the Damon saga over the past week or so, here is my take as to why Damon left:
1. The Yankees wanted Damon more than the Red Sox wanted to keep him
2. With over half of the 2004 WS team gone, Damon no longer felt any loyalty to the Red Sox.
Regarding #1, the Red Sox were only willing to offer Damon his market value ($10 million, 4 years), and even then they were probably reluctant to offer that much, given their emotionless, statistical evaluation of players. Once the Yankees were willing to overpay for Damon ($13 million per) he was gone. It was prudent for the Red Sox not to pay that much (Damon can could easily become a Mo Vaughn a year from now), and it was a good move for the Yankees (they can afford it, it filled a big hole for them, they can say they "stuck" it to the Red Sox).
Regarding #2, this is why I do not begrudge Damon for leaving. The Red Sox did not make him a "priority" signing like they did for Varitek, so they offered what he was worth, but no more. However, I don't blame the Sox for not stepping up either ($11.5 mill per year might have been a tougher decision for Damon) as they are far down a path of re-loading the team with younger talent. The mistake (IMO) the Sox made was dismantling too much of the 2004 team last year (not signing Cabrerra, Roberts, Lowe, Reese, and extending Damon's contract). The other mistake was bungling the GM job.
Bottom line, there has been some Red Sox missteps lately, and I think Larry Luccino is to blame for most of it. However, the Sox are not done yet, and the Manny - Tejada saga will be interesting.
Finally, despite the missteps of current management, I will take them over the Dan Duquette / Grady Little era.
bri- who are you? No one was asking you your opinion of ME. If you find me annoying, then don't respond to me. Simple, eh? Better yet, go away (or at least get an icon you clown).
As far as damon goes, why are you yankee fanatics so enamored of this guy? I mean you think boston fans are jealous of you, I think the opposite is occuring and you are too blind to see it.
Damon went to NY because (a) he has no loyalty to a club he won a world series with, (b) the yankees offered him the most money, and (c) he contradicted everything he said in may when he said it wasn't going to be about the money.
Now you yankee nutjobs want to say that the yankees wanted him more, no, they wanted to stick it to the red sox more than boston want to pay. Boston got NY to overpay (again) for an aging fielder with a suspect arm.
Losing damon was not a misstep in any way shape or form. It would have been reckless to offer a 32 year old that kind of money. Hooray for Boston for showing some restraint.
Hey ax you fool, last time i checked I didnt need permission to offer my opinion. And to further clarify my opinion, you are an ignorant jacka$$ who tries to bully everyone on here.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
Yeah Ax, the yankee officials sit around thinking of players to sign for no other reason than to " stick it " to other teams. It has nothing to do with a need or anything like that. And you and some other yankee haters act like the $$ for salaries is coming out of your pocket...what do you care about Damon's or anyone else's salary ? Sounds to me you are just bitter because your teams owner is too cheap to hold onto any talent.
The term loyalty is also thrown around way too much these days. Why should a player have loyalty to a team that got rid of half their top talent, treats their players like crap, and will drop them in an instant ? How many of us would stay at our jobs if half the co-workers we had come to know well over the years, spend time with outside the office, bond with, whose families we met, end up getting ditched ? I know if half my buddies at work were moved out, treated like garbage, etc then I certainly would have no loyalty to that company either.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
<< <i>Cornhusker1, I could not have said it better myself. With Pedro, Mueller, Millar, and possibly Manny gone the team is a shell of it's former self.
By the way, Happy New Year! >>
Happy New Year to you too Spammy. Looking forward to a nice 3-way race in the AL East!!
<< <i>The term loyalty is also thrown around way too much these days. Why should a player have loyalty to a team that got rid of half their top talent, treats their players like crap, and will drop them in an instant ? How many of us would stay at our jobs if half the co-workers we had come to know well over the years, spend time with outside the office, bond with, whose families we met, end up getting ditched ? I know if half my buddies at work were moved out, treated like garbage, etc then I certainly would have no loyalty to that company either. >>
Bri, what exactly are you talking about? You think that the Red Sox front office treats its players "like crap"? Where is your evidence of this?
In the case of Damon, they offered him a not too crappy $40 million dollars, over the same 4 years. Damon chose to take the larger money offer over the same number of years, and turn his back on a team and a city that worshipped him. Pretty crappy, if you ask me.
Go back to Pedro. Pedro's agent basically played the Red Sox for an offer that he knew the Mets would exceed. Both of these players said, at one time or another, that they would "never" leave for New York. They both got contract offers that more than exceeded their true market value - the Sox could have just said no thanks, and let them go.
They rewarded Jason Varitek with a nice contract after last season. Same for Timlin this season. And, they even are trying to work a trade for Manny, which could seriously disrupt the powerful offense that Manny and Ortiz have led, just to accomodate him. I'd say the Sox front office is hardly treating it's players like "garbage", baseball is a business first and foremost, yet they have made every effort to keep the guys that eventually walked away.
Yeah they treated Clemens real well too, didnt they ?? The guy busted his tail for them for years, only to be dumped like yesterdays trash after one bad season.....and the "class" you sox fans show is booing him every time he comes back to pitch there...as if it was his fault for leaving and not the teams for booting him out. Something you will NEVER see in NY.....Wells leaves for whatever reason, and he returns to cheers, respect, and thanks for the service that he gave the team....same goes for Pettitte, he leaves for his own reasons, do you see yankee fans crying and saying how he ditched them for the money, NO, you see him return and receive ovation for his years of service......that is still one thing you " haters " still just dont get.
So yes, I think the Red Sox management has a very long history of treating their players like crap. We all know its a business, and money is always the bottom line, but the management, as well as the fans have no idea what it means to overlook the business end of things and appreciate a player for the work they did while they were there. I am sure when Pedro returns to pitch all the idiots up in fenway will boo him too, instead of giving the man what he deserves, which is your respect and thanks for giving his heart and soul to the team and the city for so many years.
And oh, just one more thing......the Sox offered Damon $40 million, and he got what, $52.......well, you tell me one person with any sort of mental stability who would turn down an extra $12 million over 4 years......you can talk about it any way you want, but I am sure you would leave the job you have right now for another $2 an hour, nevermind an extra 12 million over 4 years.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
<< <i>and the "class" you sox fans show is booing him every time he comes back to pitch there... >>
Is this as 'classy' as YANKEE fans booing Mariano Rivera early in the season? Pot, meet kettle!
<< <i> And oh, just one more thing......the Sox offered Damon $40 million, and he got what, $52.......well, you tell me one person with any sort of mental stability who would turn down an extra $12 million over 4 years......you can talk about it any way you want, but I am sure you would leave the job you have right now for another $2 an hour, nevermind an extra 12 million over 4 years. >>
Hey buffoon, I guess you missed where Damon said in MAY of '05 that his next contract wouldn't be 'all about the money'? No one's begrudging him taking the max offer, or even being a turncoat and playing for the enemy, it's that he's going back on his word.
For the last 5 years, the winning team for the WS has, in the 2 years after winning, retained an average of only 10-12 players from that winning season. Times have changed, and not for the better. Scott Boros convinces his clients to go for the money. Damon, have fun in NY.
<< <i>and the "class" you sox fans show is booing him every time he comes back to pitch there... >>
Is this as 'classy' as YANKEE fans booing Mariano Rivera early in the season? Pot, meet kettle!
One thing you may not understand about NY fans....no matter WHO you are, if you aren't performing then you will be booed. Thats just NY and players know it and accept it.
I guess when you support a team that SUCKS then why boo because you know your chances of winning isnt too good.
And BTW...I wonder what team creates the most income as an away team? Teams love it when the Yankees are in town so all this money spent means more for the teams they visit too.
Comments
It's easy to bash Damon for this, but I think this move will ultimately cost him more than he realizes. Yank fans pretty much hated him for the last several years, now they like him because they feel he jumped ship from the enemy, but if he fails to produce this season or allows too many runners to run crazy on him from deep center in Yankee Stadium, the fans there will turn on him faster than they have ever turned on a player before. And, there's no going "home" for him, again. Good luck, JD.
<< <i>, but if he fails to produce this season or allows too many runners to run crazy on him from deep center in Yankee Stadium, the fans there will turn on him faster than they have ever turned on a player before. And, there's no going "home" for him, again. Good luck, JD. >>
Johnny Damons arm right now is no worse than Bernie Williams arm was at its best. Bernie Williams played a very solid center field for 10 years at Yankee Stadium with one of the weakest arms in baseball. Johnny Damon will earn his pay running down fly balls and setting the table for Jeter, A-Rod, Sheffield, etc.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
If there's so much pitching out there, as DH implies, why aren't they making moves for it? And what makes anyone think the yankees put any emphasis on their starting pitching? Have there been many moves in the last few years that would indicate this?
<< <i>Saying Damon is as good as Bernie in the outfield isn't really a compliment.
If there's so much pitching out there, as DH implies, why aren't they making moves for it? And what makes anyone think the yankees put any emphasis on their starting pitching? Have there been many moves in the last few years that would indicate this? >>
no compliment intended, The POINT is that the Yankees managed to play in 6 World Series with a center fielder with a horrible arm. Now all of the sudden it is an issue because Johnny Damon has that horrible arm too.
You don't think the Yankees put emphasis on pitching? That is crazy talk. The Yankee hater expects MORE OUT OF THE YANKEES than the fans do. What do you want the Yankees to do Ax, pull Walter johnson, Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Nolan Ryan, out of their ass?
The past "few" years the Yankees have traded for Javier Vazquez, signed Kevin Brown, signed Carl Pavano, brought up a very good rookie in Chien-Ming Wang, traded for a solid performance from Shawn Chacon, signed Jaret Wright, had Aaron Small to pull out of their rear ends to go 10-0 down the stretch last year, signed Jose Contreras, traded for Randy Johnson, et, etc, etc .... and this is just work on the rotation, let alone the bullpen in which the Yankees are ALWAYS trying to find a decent formula to Mariano Rivera.
SOME of these moves have been very good, SOME of them have not worked out. The Yankees tend to their pitching needs as much as any team. And just like EVERY team in baseball besides the White Sox probably, the Yankees have pitching problems.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
your whole 'yankee hater' schtick is growing very, very old. You hold those of us who despise the unfair advantage the yankees have in baseball as being so biased we cannot see objectively. I would like to say that YOU, too, are far too close to the matter to be objective as well.
Did I say they had to go sign all stars? Uhm, no, but when your staff era is over 4.50, your team needs help. When you fail to address it, and your big signing is yet ANOTHER all star in the lineup, don't you see that as odd?
Of course you don't, because to you, the yankees can do no wrong. Every move they make is brilliant, and there have been NO pitching free agents this year that were better than anyone on the staff.
I give up with you on this...you are so damn close to it that you can't step back and see the yankees are going to suffer AGAIN.
<< <i>softie-
your whole 'yankee hater' schtick is growing very, very old. You hold those of us who despise the unfair advantage the yankees have in baseball as being so biased we cannot see objectively. I would like to say that YOU, too, are far too close to the matter to be objective as well.
Did I say they had to go sign all stars? Uhm, no, but when your staff era is over 4.50, your team needs help. When you fail to address it, and your big signing is yet ANOTHER all star in the lineup, don't you see that as odd?
Of course you don't, because to you, the yankees can do no wrong. Every move they make is brilliant, and there have been NO pitching free agents this year that were better than anyone on the staff.
I give up with you on this...you are so damn close to it that you can't step back and see the yankees are going to suffer AGAIN. >>
<< <i>softie-
your whole 'yankee hater' schtick is growing very, very old. You hold those of us who despise the unfair advantage the yankees have in baseball as being so biased we cannot see objectively. I would like to say that YOU, too, are far too close to the matter to be objective as well.
Did I say they had to go sign all stars? Uhm, no, but when your staff era is over 4.50, your team needs help. When you fail to address it, and your big signing is yet ANOTHER all star in the lineup, don't you see that as odd?
Of course you don't, because to you, the yankees can do no wrong. Every move they make is brilliant, and there have been NO pitching free agents this year that were better than anyone on the staff.
I give up with you on this...you are so damn close to it that you can't step back and see the yankees are going to suffer AGAIN. >>
yep, instead of constructive debate you sink to the this level ........... AGAIN
NOWHERE have I ever said, or implied that EVERY move the Yankees make is brilliant. Just another made up line of BS to suit your needs of the moment.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>
You don't think the Yankees put emphasis on pitching? That is crazy talk. The Yankee hater expects MORE OUT OF THE YANKEES than the fans do. What do you want the Yankees to do Ax, pull Walter johnson, Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Nolan Ryan, out of their ass? . >>
Not even the Yankees have enough $$$ for THAT@@!!!!!
Scott Boras dragged Jonny Damon to the Yanks? That's a belly laugh - CTSOXFAN.....he is a mature individual with his own thought process. You have been watching too much of Arliss on HBO and think it's reality.
Who's next to jump ship...Manny?
I still don't think Manny is leaving - but I am intrigued by the Manny for Tejada rumours...
"From the Yankees' point of view, the signing of Damon is a dual coup, strengthening their attack while, at the same time, weakening the enemy."
Yup, yup, yup
"Center field has long been the glamour position for the Yankees, manned for the past eight decades by the great and near great. Where does Damon fit in this pantheon?
One could make the case that he will be the third best center fielder in Yankees' history, eclipsed only by Yankee deities Joe DiMaggio and Mickey Mantle and compared favorably to any other who patrolled the position in Yankee Stadium.
Bernie Williams had more power, a higher lifetime batting average and a higher on-base percentage, but Damon still has some productive years left. Mickey Rivers was a Yankee only three and a half seasons, never had 200 hits or scored 100 runs.
The player closest to Damon was Earle Combs of the Murderer's Row Yankees of Ruth and Gehrig in the 1920s, both left-handed hitting center fielders and leadoff batters. Combs was 6 feet tall and 185 pounds, Damon is 6 feet, 175 pounds. They are similar also in style, playing with passion and all-out daring (Combs' career was cut short when he banged into the center field wall at Sportsman's Park in St. Louis)."
A thin line between love and hate
All those offensive stats do not even account for Bernies stellar, consistent performance in the postseason for so many years. He also played in 5 all star games ( all consecutive, exemplifying consistency) to Damon's 2 A.S. appearances. And Bernie also won 4 consecutive Gold Glove awards ( Damon has ZERO ). Bernie won a batting title, Damon has not. Bernie hit from both sides of the plate for average, and often power. He also was a member of the highest profile team in sports and was nothing but a model of grace, style, poise, character, and class. He performed and acted exactly how I would want my child to act, on the field, and in life during his entire run in NY.
I have always had a fair amount of admiration for Damon, going back to his first games at Yankee stadium while as a rookie with the Royals, where he made some great hustling plays against them, to even recently, as it seemed he was a catalyst for the solid team work that went into the Sox championship. I just cannot see, in any light, the thought that he is even close to the overall player on and off the field that Bernie Willams was for the Yankees for so many years.
-- Yogi Berra
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>.Scott Boras dragged Jonny Damon to the Yanks? That's a belly laugh - CTSOXFAN.....he is a mature individual with his own thought process. >>
Uh-huh. Read his book -- bragging about cheating on your wife is real mature. Wife #2 says she hopes to be "knocked up" by spring.
bri2327, very good take on Bernie. Fans forget how good Bernie was and meant to the Yankees. Surpassing Joe DiMaggio on the Yankee hit list is no small feat. Unfortunately people thought that Bernie was going to hit .300+, belt 20+ homers, and have 100+ RBI's for years. Bernie went downhill fast.
<< <i>The Yankees will make some moves for pitching. What a bunch of clowns that suggest getting Jonny Damon (ahhh..panty soiled Sox fans) is the key move for the Yankees.
>>
Really? What moves might these be? I've been hearing over and over from yankee 'fans' there's no pitching out there, then we hear they are going to make some moves for pitching. Which is it? And the only ones with soiled panties are these yankee lovahs who think Damon is going to somehow win them more games, instead of looking at how bad that pitching staff is and working on upgrading it.
<< <i>
Scott Boras dragged Jonny Damon to the Yanks? That's a belly laugh - CTSOXFAN.....he is a mature individual with his own thought process. You have been watching too much of Arliss on HBO and think it's reality.
>>
Why don't you do a little background check of Boras' other clients, and find out what their signings all had in common - they always signed for the MAX dollar, loyalties to their previous teams be damned. Yes Damon had to sign the contract, but you can bet your shirt that Boras was pushing him in that direction.
-- Yogi Berra
Despite all the attention paid to him, however, Damon is not a superstar, or arguably even a star. He was a consistent five-to-six win player in his four years with the Red Sox, a period that covered his age-28 through age-31 seasons. Durability and consistency were his strong suits, rather than any particular element of his game, and he does have fairly good speed. His peak season, 2004, featured a .304/.380/.477 line and 6.7 WARP, notable as much for how it ended--in a Red Sox championship--as for its value. Damon looks like a lesser version of the center fielder the Yankees recently became so disenchanted with. At 31, Bernie Williams hit .307/.391/.566 and posted a 6.7 WARP in the second year of his seven-year contract. He would decline in a straight line from that point, especially on defense, to become a shell of his former self at 34 and 35.
Damon has an significant speed edge on Williams, and is unlikely to decline as sharply on defense as Williams did (few players have). Neither player has a good arm; Damon is one of the few replacements for Williams the Yankees could have acquired who doesn’t provide much of an upgrade in their center-field throwing. Damon, like Nomar Garciaparra, got a big boost from Fenway Park, on the order of 50 points of batting average and OBP the last three seasons. The Yankees aren’t really getting a .310/.370/.450 guy so much as they’re getting a .285/.345/.425 guy. It’s the difference between a star and a solution, or millions of dollars and a couple of wins a year.
Damon is, for now, exactly what the Yankees needed: A center fielder who could hit leadoff. Last year, Damon had 197 hits and 53 walks, including 51 extra-base hits, and now he will bat ahead of three players who might be Hall of Famers, eventually -- Derek Jeter, Alex Rodriguez and Gary Sheffield. He'll hit ahead of Jason Giambi and Hideki Matsui and Jorge Posada and Robinson Cano, and give the Yankees improved athleticism at a time when the team is starved for speed.
Run to glory?
By reaching an agreement with Johnny Damon on Tuesday night, the Yankees will have five of the AL's top 12 run-scorers in their lineup next season.
1. Alex Rodriguez 124
2. Derek Jeter 122
3. David Ortiz 119
4. Johnny Damon 117
5. Michael Young 114
6. Chone Figgins 113
7. Manny Ramirez 112
7. Mark Teixeira 112
9. Ichiro Suzuki 111
9. Grady Sizemore 111
11. Hideki Matsui 108
12. Gary Sheffield 104
At the same time, the Damon deal is devastating for the Red Sox. They've seen other parts of their lineup undergo change, with the departure of Bill Mueller, the change at shortstop with the departure of Edgar Renteria. They had added proven veterans in Mike Lowell and Mark Loretta, but the lineup that had begun to take shape was filled with a lot of guys who can't run. As long as Damon was re-signed, to hit in front of David Ortiz and Ramirez, the key components of an offense that averaged six runs per game would remain in place.
What really seduces the Yankees is the trickle-down effect to the heart of the batting order. Damon and Jeter will create plenty of scoring opportunities for Gary Sheffield and Alex Rodriguez, Bernie Williams, who'll serve as DH in the No. 8 spot. Robinson Cano, who would've batted second had Damon not been signed, will drop to No. 9, which effectively gives manager Joe Torre three base stealers in succession.
It's a perfect storm, really: the Yankees now blend power and speed for less than it cost in 2005; the payroll is declining from $205 million to $175 million.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
I post what I said because YOUR post was completely baseless (as usual).
You spout that the yankees 'will make some moves for pitching'? Huh? When is that gonna happen? You don't think if they were going to they would have, already?
I think it's YOU who's the mindless spitball in this joint. All the yankee fanatics have been spewing there's no pitching left to deal for (because the yankees wanted to 'steal' Damon), but then you come on saying they will make some moves.
Get real, jerk. You have NO idea what you're talking about (again, as usual).
Where was it written anywhere the yankees needed to score more runs?
And yes, let's say the yankees are a great team because they're 'only' spending $175 million this year ($50 million more than #2).
And yes, the yankees pitching staff is still going to STINK.
<< <i>Hey softie-
Where was it written anywhere the yankees needed to score more runs?
And yes, let's say the yankees are a great team because they're 'only' spending $175 million this year ($50 million more than #2).
And yes, the yankees pitching staff is still going to STINK. >>
Did I say it was "written somewhere" that the Yankees needed to score more runs?
Axtell says the Yankee pitching staff will stink. Well, in anti NY all the time Axtell translation that means that the Yankees starting staff will most likely reside in the middle of the pack in the American League again. Unless of course Carl Pavano bounces back, Wang is for real, Mussina is Mussina, Johnson bounces back with a better year. If just two of these happen, axtell is going to have his hateful hands full.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Well, you cant have it both ways. What are you saying the yankees should do ?? Go out and pay a crazy price for a starting pitcher just becuase they need pitching ? If there is no legitimate top flight starter to answer their problem, then why bother ? Wouldnt going out and paying 13 or 14 million a yr for one of this offseasons weak talent pool just be adding to the "haters" arguing point that they overspend for garbage ? It would seem to me that the formula regarding starting pitching this year for the Yankees is an intelligent one. If it aint there, dont try to make something out of nothing.
Sure, they need pitching, yankee haters know that, but probably not nearly as well as yankee fans know that. They are holding back from acquiring that high priced, low value guy ( see pavano, wright) and taking their chances with what they have. If it works, good, if not, ohh well, life will go on.
Either way, you haters cant have it both ways. Dont complain about them buying everything, including junk, and then turn around and complain when they dont.
-- Yogi Berra
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>It would seem to me that the formula regarding starting pitching this year for the Yankees is an intelligent one. If it aint there, dont try to make something out of nothing. >>
Say what? Intelligent is the word you would use to describe a Yankee team with a massive payroll, but a shoddy patchwork pitching staff? It actually amuses the anti-Yankee fan to see how bad Yankee pitching has become (except for Rivera, of course. Take him away, the Yanks win 10-15 less games last year).
<< <i>If it works, good, if not, ohh well, life will go on >>
Somehow, I don't think this is Steinbrenner's philosophy. Not even close. It kills him every year to see the Yanks outspend the world in an effort to secure a WS title, yet they come up empty. Problem is, the money is clearly not being spent wisely, for example - Damon.
<< <i> Somehow, I don't think this is Steinbrenner's philosophy. Not even close. It kills him every year to see the Yanks outspend the world in an effort to secure a WS title, yet they come up empty. Problem is, the money is clearly not being spent wisely, for example - Damon. >>
Again, two of the BIGGEST holes on the Yankees this off season were center field and someone to leadoff so that Jeter could go back to the two hole were he belongs. This gives the Yankees a alot of speed ahead of A-Rod, SHeffield, Matsui, etc. Not to mention Robinson Cano who instead of hitting in that two slot will now bat ninth. Money not spent wisely? Nope.
Secondly, you call the Yankee staff a "patchwork" rotation. If you put that staff in ANY uniform besides the Yankees that rotation becomes solid. Certainly the staff has alot of questions, but besides the White Sox and even Blue Jays, EVERYBODY has a questionable rotation.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Th problem is yankee haters like you cant breath for 2 seconds and listen or read properly. You have something to say when they go out and overspend on lousey pitching, but when they dont go out and sign a half talent pitcher you also have complaints about that.....again, you haters cant have it both ways........pick your battles, because regarding their non pursuit of low level starting pitching talent this offseason they DID have a very intelligent choice....they balked.
-- Yogi Berra
But, lets say that they dont....by all means they are not doomed. And for the average pitching that may come about, Im sure the offense will pick up some of that slack. No, its not what you like to count on but thats the way it is.
Moose will be Moose, Johnson settled into NY the second half of the season and will be coming back with more to prove, hopefully Pavano and Wright do something worthwhile, and I think Chacon will fit in very nicely. It's really hard to judge Chacon...he came from Colorado. We all know what Colorado has done to pitchers...Mike Hampton will tell you. Regardless, Chacon has good stuff and like I said, could fit in quite nicely. Small has good stuff too if he can keep it out of the middle of the strike zone.
As far as the overall pitching staff? I think it has improved well. The middle relief they Yanks picked up were all pretty good moves. Great moves? no? maybe? yes?...but much better than the position they were in before. Though Sturtze wasnt as brilliant as the year before...lets not forget he can start if needed too. Sturtze has great stuff and will hopefully be a force again this year whether its in the bullpen or as a starter.
I hope no one was so naive to think that the ONLY moves Yanks should be making was for pitching. It has been obvious what holes the Yankees wanted to fill. Even signing Cairo is a good move. Cano is still a rookie and you need someone good to back him up.
So what if they Yankees get no more starters? I say it's a crapshoot but I dont see that they are in such a terrible position.
Let me teach you a little something about baseball. We can use the current topic of Yankee pitching as a case study. First off, there is no reason to believe that the Yankees are not interested in improving their pitching staff....they are. Because they have not made a MEGA DEAL by now to suit your fancy and twisted thinking is irrelevant. They made 3 additions to the pitching staff in December - Farnsworth, Villone and Dotel. Guess you missed that? Well, obviously...because you know not of what you speak. Not high profile additions, but additions for STRATEGIC REASONS, including future trades.
Secondly, I hope you may be astute enough to know that the Yankees have a significant roster of veteran starting and relief pitchers. Looks like they will let Brown and Leiter go to free agency. That still leaves a signed starting rotation of Johnson, Mussina, Wang, Wright and Pavano. That doesn't suck....but will be improved upon. Based on the facts that this rotation is veteran in years, and/or did not have stellar individual seasons in 2005, does not bode well for a major trade involving pitching talent at this juncture.
Next, we have a thing in baseball called "Spring Training." You may have heard of it. Besides getting players in shape, it presents an opportunity for players to demonstrate their abilities to not only the management of their club, but for all of baseball to see. Many decisions regarding final team rosters and trades are made as a result of spring training performance. This is the best opportunity for a team like the Yankees to make a move. If a Wright, Pavano and/or Wang have a strong spring...don't be surprised when you see them in the package for a stronger blue chip starter.
Finally, all deals that effect the outcome of a team's season do not have to occur before the season starts. There is a thing in baseball called the "trading deadline." Ever hear if it? Nevermind, look it up.
As usual you contradict yourself. First, you say that the yankees haven't made any moves for pitching...that they will make their moves. Then you bring up three middle relievers? Huh? How are those moves going to help their starting rotation? As usual you make ZERO sense. Try pulling your wool over someone else's eyes.
I find it humorous that you have no vested interest in this discussion either way, other that to antogonize me. You clearly aren't a yankee fan (though you would certainly fit the mold (moody, bullyish, angry), and you don't see the yankees as leading to the eventual downfall of baseball as we know it. So why are you here, other than to argue with me?
Yankee 'fans' (and I use that term with the loosest possible definition) yell and scream that Damon 'Filled two holes! Leadoff and CF!' Well sparky, last time I checked, you had a leadoff man who you've been wetting your pants for years over (Jeter). Saying how great he was! How he was the best! Now you've signed Damon and you have to justify $13 million a year for a 32-year old, weak armed center fielder. So you cry out 'we got 2 for one!' like he's some bargain.
The funniest thing about all this is that yankee fans see nothing at all wrong with cheering for the man who was part of the team that crushed them. See nothing at all wrong with rooting for the enemy. Damon (by yankee fans accounts) was the 'face' of the red sox. Now you're cheering for him? Talk about selling your souls to the devil...
Hey, I guess you root for the yankees, you're used to it, huh?
<< <i>
Yankee 'fans' (and I use that term with the loosest possible definition) ? >>
yeah, OK MR. "Mariner fan"
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>What a bunch of the usual off focus and inaccurate blather, Axroid. Disjointed nonsense...swinging away like a madman with a bag over his head.
Hmm who's swinging blindly here?
I think it would be YOU with your first post:
"the yankees are going to make pitching moves"
then the OPPOSITE:
"the yankees picked up 3 pitchers arleady!"
which is it slappy?
-- Yogi Berra
"That still leaves a signed starting rotation of Johnson, Mussina, Wang, Wright and Pavano."
DirtyHarry, how could you forget Chacon? He was practically lights out last year. He pitched great against the Angels in the ALDS too.
By the way, Happy New Year!
1. The Yankees wanted Damon more than the Red Sox wanted to keep him
2. With over half of the 2004 WS team gone, Damon no longer felt any loyalty to the Red Sox.
Regarding #1, the Red Sox were only willing to offer Damon his market value ($10 million, 4 years), and even then they were probably reluctant to offer that much, given their emotionless, statistical evaluation of players. Once the Yankees were willing to overpay for Damon ($13 million per) he was gone. It was prudent for the Red Sox not to pay that much (Damon can could easily become a Mo Vaughn a year from now), and it was a good move for the Yankees (they can afford it, it filled a big hole for them, they can say they "stuck" it to the Red Sox).
Regarding #2, this is why I do not begrudge Damon for leaving. The Red Sox did not make him a "priority" signing like they did for Varitek, so they offered what he was worth, but no more. However, I don't blame the Sox for not stepping up either ($11.5 mill per year might have been a tougher decision for Damon) as they are far down a path of re-loading the team with younger talent. The mistake (IMO) the Sox made was dismantling too much of the 2004 team last year (not signing Cabrerra, Roberts, Lowe, Reese, and extending Damon's contract). The other mistake was bungling the GM job.
Bottom line, there has been some Red Sox missteps lately, and I think Larry Luccino is to blame for most of it. However, the Sox are not done yet, and the Manny - Tejada saga will be interesting.
Finally, despite the missteps of current management, I will take them over the Dan Duquette / Grady Little era.
Cornhusker1, I could not have said it better myself. With Pedro, Mueller, Millar, and possibly Manny gone the team is a shell of it's former self.
As far as damon goes, why are you yankee fanatics so enamored of this guy? I mean you think boston fans are jealous of you, I think the opposite is occuring and you are too blind to see it.
Damon went to NY because (a) he has no loyalty to a club he won a world series with, (b) the yankees offered him the most money, and (c) he contradicted everything he said in may when he said it wasn't going to be about the money.
Now you yankee nutjobs want to say that the yankees wanted him more, no, they wanted to stick it to the red sox more than boston want to pay. Boston got NY to overpay (again) for an aging fielder with a suspect arm.
Losing damon was not a misstep in any way shape or form. It would have been reckless to offer a 32 year old that kind of money. Hooray for Boston for showing some restraint.
-- Yogi Berra
The term loyalty is also thrown around way too much these days. Why should a player have loyalty to a team that got rid of half their top talent, treats their players like crap, and will drop them in an instant ? How many of us would stay at our jobs if half the co-workers we had come to know well over the years, spend time with outside the office, bond with, whose families we met, end up getting ditched ? I know if half my buddies at work were moved out, treated like garbage, etc then I certainly would have no loyalty to that company either.
-- Yogi Berra
<< <i>Cornhusker1, I could not have said it better myself. With Pedro, Mueller, Millar, and possibly Manny gone the team is a shell of it's former self.
Happy New Year to you too Spammy. Looking forward to a nice 3-way race in the AL East!!
<< <i>The term loyalty is also thrown around way too much these days. Why should a player have loyalty to a team that got rid of half their top talent, treats their players like crap, and will drop them in an instant ? How many of us would stay at our jobs if half the co-workers we had come to know well over the years, spend time with outside the office, bond with, whose families we met, end up getting ditched ? I know if half my buddies at work were moved out, treated like garbage, etc then I certainly would have no loyalty to that company either. >>
Bri, what exactly are you talking about? You think that the Red Sox front office treats its players "like crap"? Where is your evidence of this?
In the case of Damon, they offered him a not too crappy $40 million dollars, over the same 4 years. Damon chose to take the larger money offer over the same number of years, and turn his back on a team and a city that worshipped him. Pretty crappy, if you ask me.
Go back to Pedro. Pedro's agent basically played the Red Sox for an offer that he knew the Mets would exceed. Both of these players said, at one time or another, that they would "never" leave for New York. They both got contract offers that more than exceeded their true market value - the Sox could have just said no thanks, and let them go.
They rewarded Jason Varitek with a nice contract after last season. Same for Timlin this season. And, they even are trying to work a trade for Manny, which could seriously disrupt the powerful offense that Manny and Ortiz have led, just to accomodate him. I'd say the Sox front office is hardly treating it's players like "garbage", baseball is a business first and foremost, yet they have made every effort to keep the guys that eventually walked away.
So yes, I think the Red Sox management has a very long history of treating their players like crap. We all know its a business, and money is always the bottom line, but the management, as well as the fans have no idea what it means to overlook the business end of things and appreciate a player for the work they did while they were there. I am sure when Pedro returns to pitch all the idiots up in fenway will boo him too, instead of giving the man what he deserves, which is your respect and thanks for giving his heart and soul to the team and the city for so many years.
And oh, just one more thing......the Sox offered Damon $40 million, and he got what, $52.......well, you tell me one person with any sort of mental stability who would turn down an extra $12 million over 4 years......you can talk about it any way you want, but I am sure you would leave the job you have right now for another $2 an hour, nevermind an extra 12 million over 4 years.
-- Yogi Berra
<< <i>and the "class" you sox fans show is booing him every time he comes back to pitch there... >>
Is this as 'classy' as YANKEE fans booing Mariano Rivera early in the season? Pot, meet kettle!
<< <i>
And oh, just one more thing......the Sox offered Damon $40 million, and he got what, $52.......well, you tell me one person with any sort of mental stability who would turn down an extra $12 million over 4 years......you can talk about it any way you want, but I am sure you would leave the job you have right now for another $2 an hour, nevermind an extra 12 million over 4 years. >>
Hey buffoon, I guess you missed where Damon said in MAY of '05 that his next contract wouldn't be 'all about the money'? No one's begrudging him taking the max offer, or even being a turncoat and playing for the enemy, it's that he's going back on his word.
Your posts are as bad as spammys.
average of only 10-12 players from that winning season. Times have changed, and not for the better.
Scott Boros convinces his clients to go for the money. Damon, have fun in NY.
my hotels
I wouldn't.
Steve
<< <i>
<< <i>and the "class" you sox fans show is booing him every time he comes back to pitch there... >>
Is this as 'classy' as YANKEE fans booing Mariano Rivera early in the season? Pot, meet kettle!
One thing you may not understand about NY fans....no matter WHO you are, if you aren't performing then you will be booed. Thats just NY and players know it and accept it.
I guess when you support a team that SUCKS then why boo because you know your chances of winning isnt too good.
And BTW...I wonder what team creates the most income as an away team? Teams love it when the Yankees are in town so all this money spent means more for the teams they visit too.