<< <i>as well as my Silver Eagle Proof set which includes the 1995-W. >>
When originally issued, the 1995 Anniversary Proof set sold for about $1,000. After it's release, the Silver Eagle could sometimes be found in the secondary market for $300-$500. Today, the Eagle alone brings $4,500.
If you go to a Ford dealer, they will tell you all the reasons why a Ford is better than a Chevy. If you go to a Chevy dealer they will tell you all the reasons why a Chevy is better than a Ford.
Many of the participants in this thread are active participants in the coin marketplace and have things they want to sell and things they would like to buy. Or, they represent those who do.
Why is anyone surprised that a vendor, or those associated with a vendor, would talk up their own goods while talking down those of the other guy?
That is just business. And there is nothing wrong with that.
Coin collecting is like anything else that is material.
"My house is bigger than yours"
"My car is better than yours"
....the next one would probably get me banned for profanity so I'll leave off here
You can liken this discussion to the housing market. I live in Southern NH on a 20k Sq. Ft. lot, big, house, etc. If I sold my house here I'd be lucky to buy a house 1/2 this size in L.A.
Is my house underpriced or are the L.A. houses overpriced?
The answer is that they're priced just right...based on what their respective markets say they should be priced at.
I'm working on an interesting graph that shows relative demand in correlation to relative supply as you move up the grading curve, and across denominations/types. Very fascinating and somewhat counterintuitive. Good tool for doing analysis, though, and it can map well for this specific discussion.
Believe it or not, there are actually some moderns that have much more upside than one would think (based on the correlation), and some that are way overhyped. But the same holds true for classics also.
I just bought a PCGS graded St Gaudens on ebay. I don't know much about grading but I sure am learning fast. When I picked up this coin at the PO yesterday I was shocked to say the least. Here was an MS64 coin that looked like an MS62 to me. Granted I'm still in my infancy when it comes to grading but buying these "classics" has got to be as dangerous as buying MS70 modern crap. Both can be good ways to lose money fast.
Luckily, the seller has agreed to refund my money even though the auction description didn't give a refund policy. I lucked out this time. Next time might not go so well.
So do I "protect" myself by only buying from the big dealers? Another good way to drop cash really fast. High overhead equals high selling prices.
The US Mint looks better all the time. I get beautiful Coins at issue price. A good percentage of items I buy goes for multiples of my buy price soon after a sell-out. What's not to like about near-perfect modern crap that escalates in value really fast? Beats the he!! out of returning the wizzolas you hook up with on eBay. I even had to return a Gold Coin to a top level dealer who bangs the drum loudly on this forum. That wasn't much fun either. Slabbed Modern crap - Slabbed Classic crap - what's the difference? When a second level seller ( anyone beyond the US Mint )is trying to make a buck, they tend to push the boundaries no matter who they are - vest-pocket dealer ( old term for todays wannabee) , or top-tier Dealer. And the TPG's enable them all.
<< <i>G*d D*mn the pusher Man >>
Dealers! Aren't they all just the same, no matter what they're trying to push?
Collecting modern coins is no different from buying IPO's or contemporary paintings. These are all more popular in the short term than older coins, established companies and classical paintings. The problem is that in 25 years, a few of the modern coins, IPO's and contemporary paintings will be worth more but the vast majority of them will be worth 70%-80% less as the fad disappears. However, the older coins, established companies and classical paintings will have continued to appreciate, providing a solid real return
Classic or rare coins have had there fair share. They have had all these years to appreciate and many have and others haven't. Morgan Dollars were very highly priced in the 80's. Today they seem like bargains compared to some of those prices. With all this time and some of them not appreciated much.
While some modern can be bought today and sold within a year or so for a profit. At times even in a day. One good example are the Platinum Eagles, every one who has bought them from the mint every year has already came on top. That is an issue in which it has gone up only and for the entire series of 9 years. Tell me which other coins have only gone up. The 2004 $50 proof for example has appreciated 5 times for example in just 4 months.
I beleive the ones indicating moderns are not good investments are just upset they didn't get in the game and are just hoping this modern market fails. I just gave an example of a whole series that has appreciated backed up by facts. I don't hear anyone here saying anything with proven facts but just plain upset dealers making up opinions since they have spent most of their time learning classic coins only.
<< <i>ne good example are the Platinum Eagles, every one who has bought them from the mint every year has already came on top. That is an issue in which it has gone up only and for the entire series of 9 years. >>
I don't know about all the issues but the 2003 proof is still not up to it's mint price. The 2004 series is the only one that has skyrocketed.
<< <i>Collecting modern coins is no different from buying IPO's or contemporary paintings. These are all more popular in the short term than older coins, established companies and classical paintings. The problem is that in 25 years, a few of the modern coins, IPO's and contemporary paintings will be worth more but the vast majority of them will be worth 70%-80% less as the fad disappears. However, the older coins, established companies and classical paintings will have continued to appreciate, providing a solid real return >>
This is a great analogy with the IPO's (stocks).
...........................One might quibble about the percentage of moderns that are likely to appreciate or the percentage of classics with staying power but otherwise I am in much agreement with this.
There is one important difference though. It is usually very difficult to evaluate a comp- any for very long term performance. Management changes. Everything changes from its markets to its products. Coins are not so complicated. Predicting future behavior may be no easier because they are still dependent on the whim of collectors, but there are many things that collectors have always had in common. Whether someone collects coins or pianos, they seek rarity, quality, importance, and artistry. They are drawn to things that had been common but no one saved. They collect things that they did or might have used themselves but are no longer found (at least in nice condition). They also have an appreciation for things that are esoteric and strange. Look at some of the huge classic "rarities" with huge prices like the 1804 dollar, '13 nickel, or even the '33 saint. How much stranger can coins get? Many moderns are equally or even more strange and rare.
I believe it's possible to rate most of these coins on these scales and have an idea of how I and some future collectors will value them but even where I'm wrong the coins are still a lot of fun to collect in the here and now and most are making real money in the here and now.
Albanese: The grading services should either immediately cease slabbing modern and bullion coins, or issue strong black-box warning labels on all of this trash. It should read something like, "This slab is harmful to your financial health and should be purchased for amusement purposes only".
I guess that he wouldn't be the "go to guy" for a gold anniversary set, then.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
No doubt Albanese has done just fine brokering and selling top quality classic coins. But it would be interesting to know if he's ever bought a slabbed gold or silver anniversay set!
The question was asked what are the least attractive areas for rare coin investment. I think he answered correctly. I don't think he is knocking moderns as an area to collect or enjoy. John Albanese is a premier rare coin dealer and a grader's grader and works with people who treat numismatics as investments.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I took him very seriously and immediately sent my 04Wand 05w platinum proofs back to the mint and cancelled my order for the 06w gold and silver anniversary sets....NOT!!!!!
The question was asked what are the least attractive areas for rare coin investment. I think he answered correctly. I don't think he is knocking moderns as an area to collect or enjoy. John Albanese is a premier rare coin dealer and a grader's grader and works with people who treat numismatics as investments.
He has his opinion and that's fine, but what if someone here said essentially the same thing about classics, such as:
The grading services should either immediately cease slabbing classics and all that over-graded and over-dipped old crap, or issue strong black-box warning labels on all of this trash. It should read something like, "This slab is harmful to your financial health and should be purchased for amusement purposes only".
What a cry and hue there would be!
And since it seems to be an issue when Moderns are sold at a profit in a short time frame, why is it such a coup when a classic coin that hasn't been tampered with (too much, anyway) gets sold at an auction for 5 and 6 figures? You would think that it's only black vs. white, instead of points along the same danged continuum. "I have seen the enemy, and they are me." - Pogo.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>The question was asked what are the least attractive areas for rare coin investment. I think he answered correctly. I don't think he is knocking moderns as an area to collect or enjoy. John Albanese is a premier rare coin dealer and a grader's grader and works with people who treat numismatics as investments. >>
yup, that is the way i read it. Albanese is one of the most respected members in the coin community, and usually has an uncanny way of predicting what is a good long term buy/investment, and what isn't. He has also been noted (by Salzburg, Hall and others) to have two of the best grading eyes in the industry also. While the way he said it was a bit abrasive, i tend to agree with it.
<< <i>The question was asked what are the least attractive areas for rare coin investment. I think he answered correctly. I don't think he is knocking moderns as an area to collect or enjoy. John Albanese is a premier rare coin dealer and a grader's grader and works with people who treat numismatics as investments.
He has his opinion and that's fine, but what if someone here said essentially the same thing about classics, such as:
The grading services should either immediately cease slabbing classics and all that over-graded and over-dipped old crap, or issue strong black-box warning labels on all of this trash. It should read something like, "This slab is harmful to your financial health and should be purchased for amusement purposes only".
What a cry and hue there would be!
Someone here essentially said that in so many words and she was thrown off the boards.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
It's a good thing I never took advise from someone as unprofessional as Albanese, from 1994 to date. If I had, I would have missed out on 100's of thousands of dollars profit from the duplicate modern products I have purchased from the US Mint! In the meantime I was able to put aside just about every low mintage, high profile coin for my collection with nothing invested in ANY of them! Try that with the high end classics with anything short of a multi-million dollar bank account? I suggest that Albanese stick to his own preferences, and buy what he likes, while I do the same for myself without pissing on HIS parade!
The problem I have with his commentary is the father knows best bit about moderns not being graded by the services. I think moderns will find their true worth or worthlessness as enough are holdered, without artificial interference, but then I believe in free markets.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Someone here essentially said that in so many words and she was thrown off the boards.
She said that about everything that she wasn't hawking at the time, and she was essentially blaming the soft market in her high end coins on the TPGs, instead of on the lack of buying by collectors.
She almost got to the point of endorsing bullion when she suggested buying old common date U.S. gold, but she couldn't quite hack giving the same endorsement to Modern Bullion, which has out-performed common date U.S. gold with many recent issues.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
If you don't know what you're doing in Moderns, you WILL get burned. It's the same with classics. My neighbor spent about $8,000 on a MS66 1851 3-cent silver. OUCH.
But at least it wasn't a modern.
"I'll split the atom! I am the fifth dimension! I am the eighth wonder of the world!" -Gef the talking mongoose.
John Albanese does not advise on modern coins. I do not know anyone who does and is hired to do so. I think most people do it on their own from the mint or ebay. John Albanese is an expert on truly rare coins, ones that are put away.
Edit to add: Like 1804 proof eagles. He brokered one.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I think that attitude is why I was able to buy a MS66 Clad Ike, 5% Off Center, at such a bargain. I think the dealer maily priced it as a nice error Ike. He forgot that an MS66 of that date with no error sells for more than I paid for the error MS66.
I think his comment is pretty closed minded. Clearly there have been excellent investment opportunities with what the mint has sold recently. And they were no brainers. So I guess I call that bad advice.
The grading services should either immediately cease slabbing modern and bullion coins, or issue strong black-box warning labels on all of this trash. It should read something like, "This slab is harmful to your financial health and should be purchased for amusement purposes only".
That's the funniest thing I've read all week...
My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
The grading services should either immediately cease slabbing modern or bullion coins, or issue strong black-box warning labels on all of this trash. It should read something like, "This slab is harmful to your financial health and should be purchased for amusement purposes only". <whine, whine, whine - interpreted to mean "I am so envious of anyone that makes money, even if I make more money than they do.">
Let's talk about Double Standards. It's ok to tout financial gain when you sell classic coins, but if you make any money in Moderns, you get called names. Besides being pretty juvenile in that regard, it's petty. Hmmmmm...........seems pretty simple to me. If I make money in Moderns, it's a mindless, clueless enterprise. If I can speculate on a 1913 nickel for 18 months and come out ahead, I am a blazing financial and numismatic genious! No double standard here, at all!
But, if I am Fletcher and buy into the high-end classic market as an actual collector of the stuff, I get endless crap because I might not know all of the die marriages and varieties of the whole series, and haven't sequestered myself for 10 years to become an "expert", thus I am not "qualified" to own such a coin. Does it matter that I am interested in the history and an avid student of coin collecting? Nope - sorry son - you have to be annointed - didn't you know?
Snob it up some more, fellas. By all means, blame the TPGs and the Modern Collectors. Pretty soon, you will have the whole classic market to yourselves and you can keep imagining that there is a bifucated market in classics, instead of an overpriced one.
Moderns from the Mint = No middlemen dealers = pissy attitude toward Moderns. Moderns = an active, vibrant market with amazingly high grade coins with tons of participants bidding to keep'em honest. Classics = a secretive, esoteric society of insiders who jealously guard the castle door from the masses of ordinary, so very ordinary collectors.
If this were Real Estate, and classic coin collectors/classic coin dealers were realtors, would they be talking about how stupid first-time homebuyers are for buying a small, but nice new house in a modest neighborhood? Would they be talking trash about a middle management guy who just sold his older home for a nice $150,000 gain? No, they would be after their business - obnoxiously so. It amazes me how blind and ridgid some classic guys can be by ignoring the very newcomers that they want to convert to their segment of the hobby. It really does amaze me.
Now, let's talk about Mr. David Hall. At one time, I thought that he was just another dealer and an upstart when he started PCGS. Jumping on the bandwagon with yet another gimmick, as it were. But I'll tell you one thing - he based his business model on reality, and he made it work, because he apparently assessed the demand for his product and made a committment. Gotta hand it to him - he actually must have listened to what the market was telling him! If some of the Modern-bashers around here had started PCGS, by now they would have about 300 slabs extant, with maybe 15 "qualified" customers, total.
If they don't get it by now, my guess is that they never will. Have a nice day! jmski
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>Saying that JA sells moderns because he is Blanchard's numismatic expert and Blanchard sells moderns is quite the stretch - don't you think?
>>
thats what i was thinking. Blanchard actually points out that he consults on rare coins which basically means he has no dealing with their NCLT/bullion side of the business. one only has to look at JA's personal website to see where his business is.
<< <i>The grading services should either immediately cease slabbing modern or bullion coins, or issue strong black-box warning labels on all of this trash. It should read something like, "This slab is harmful to your financial health and should be purchased for amusement purposes only". <whine, whine, whine - interpreted to mean "I am so envious of anyone that makes money, even if I make more money than they do.">
Let's talk about Double Standards. It's ok to tout financial gain when you sell classic coins, but if you make any money in Moderns, you get called names. Besides being pretty juvenile in that regard, it's petty. Hmmmmm...........seems pretty simple to me. If I make money in Moderns, it's a mindless, clueless enterprise. If I can speculate on a 1913 nickel for 18 months and come out ahead, I am a blazing financial and numismatic genious! No double standard here, at all!
But, if I am Fletcher and buy into the high-end classic market as an actual collector of the stuff, I get endless crap because I might not know all of the die marriages and varieties of the whole series, and haven't sequestered myself for 10 years to become an "expert", thus I am not "qualified" to own such a coin. Does it matter that I am interested in the history and an avid student of coin collecting? Nope - sorry son - you have to be annointed - didn't you know?
Snob it up some more, fellas. By all means, blame the TPGs and the Modern Collectors. Pretty soon, you will have the whole classic market to yourselves and you can keep imagining that there is a bifucated market in classics, instead of an overpriced one.
Moderns from the Mint = No middlemen dealers = pissy attitude toward Moderns. Moderns = an active, vibrant market with amazingly high grade coins with tons of participants bidding to keep'em honest. Classics = a secretive, esoteric society of insiders who jealously guard the castle door from the masses of ordinary, so very ordinary collectors.
If this were Real Estate, and classic coin collectors/classic coin dealers were realtors, would they be talking about how stupid first-time homebuyers are for buying a small, but nice new house in a modest neighborhood? Would they be talking trash about a middle management guy who just sold his older home for a nice $150,000 gain? No, they would be after their business - obnoxiously so. It amazes me how blind and ridgid some classic guys can be by ignoring the very newcomers that they want to convert to their segment of the hobby. It really does amaze me.
Now, let's talk about Mr. David Hall. At one time, I thought that he was just another dealer and an upstart when he started PCGS. Jumping on the bandwagon with yet another gimmick, as it were. But I'll tell you one thing - he based his business model on reality, and he made it work, because he apparently assessed the demand for his product and made a committment. Gotta hand it to him - he actually must have listened to what the market was telling him! If some of the Modern-bashers around here had started PCGS, by now they would have about 300 slabs extant, with maybe 15 "qualified" customers, total.
If they don't get it by now, my guess is that they never will. Have a nice day! jmski >>
You have some strong feelings about this........I did not know David Hall deals in moderns personally.....no reason why he should not be all over moderns relative to what pcgs does as a business model, as you suggest
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Saying that JA sells moderns because he is Blanchard's numismatic expert and Blanchard sells moderns is quite the stretch - don't you think?
thats what i was thinking. Blanchard actually points out that he consults on rare coins which basically means he has no dealing with their NCLT/bullion side of the business. one only has to look at JA's personal website to see where his business is.
At the very least, I doubt that he turns down filthy lucre from the sale of moderns as payment for his services on classics. Does John Albanese even have a personal website? If so, I can't find it (although the other Albanese site is easy to find).
Comments
<< <i>as well as my Silver Eagle Proof set which includes the 1995-W. >>
When originally issued, the 1995 Anniversary Proof set sold for about $1,000. After it's release, the Silver Eagle could sometimes be found in the secondary market for $300-$500. Today, the Eagle alone brings $4,500.
42/92
Many of the participants in this thread are active participants in the coin marketplace and have things they want to sell and things they would like to buy. Or, they represent those who do.
Why is anyone surprised that a vendor, or those associated with a vendor, would talk up their own goods while talking down those of the other guy?
That is just business. And there is nothing wrong with that.
<< <i>Ya' just don't see much classic bashing. >>
That just means we are more polite. Or they are more panicked. Or something.
<< <i>Everyone is entitled to his / her own opinion. I agree with him. >>
Everyone is entitled to his / her own opinion. I disagree with him.
Coin collecting is like anything else that is material.
"My house is bigger than yours"
"My car is better than yours"
....the next one would probably get me banned for profanity so I'll leave off here
You can liken this discussion to the housing market. I live in Southern NH on a 20k Sq. Ft. lot, big, house, etc. If I sold my house here I'd be lucky to buy a house 1/2 this size in L.A.
Is my house underpriced or are the L.A. houses overpriced?
The answer is that they're priced just right...based on what their respective markets say they should be priced at.
I'm working on an interesting graph that shows relative demand in correlation to relative supply as you move up the grading curve, and across denominations/types. Very fascinating and somewhat counterintuitive. Good tool for doing analysis, though, and it can map well for this specific discussion.
Believe it or not, there are actually some moderns that have much more upside than one would think (based on the correlation), and some that are way overhyped. But the same holds true for classics also.
Net-net ... it is what it is and lets move one...
<< <i>Ya' just don't see much classic bashing. >>
I just bought a PCGS graded St Gaudens on ebay. I don't know much about grading but I sure am learning fast. When I picked up this coin at the PO yesterday I was shocked to say the least. Here was an MS64 coin that looked like an MS62 to me. Granted I'm still in my infancy when it comes to grading but buying these "classics" has got to be as dangerous as buying MS70 modern crap. Both can be good ways to lose money fast.
Luckily, the seller has agreed to refund my money even though the auction description didn't give a refund policy. I lucked out this time. Next time might not go so well.
So do I "protect" myself by only buying from the big dealers? Another good way to drop cash really fast. High overhead equals high selling prices.
The US Mint looks better all the time. I get beautiful Coins at issue price. A good percentage of items I buy goes for multiples of my buy price soon after a sell-out. What's not to like about near-perfect modern crap that escalates in value really fast? Beats the he!! out of returning the wizzolas you hook up with on eBay. I even had to return a Gold Coin to a top level dealer who bangs the drum loudly on this forum. That wasn't much fun either. Slabbed Modern crap - Slabbed Classic crap - what's the difference? When a second level seller ( anyone beyond the US Mint
<< <i>G*d D*mn the pusher Man >>
Dealers! Aren't they all just the same, no matter what they're trying to push?
While some modern can be bought today and sold within a year or so for a profit. At times even in a day. One good example are the Platinum Eagles, every one who has bought them from the mint every year has already came on top. That is an issue in which it has gone up only and for the entire series of 9 years. Tell me which other coins have only gone up. The 2004 $50 proof for example has appreciated 5 times for example in just 4 months.
I beleive the ones indicating moderns are not good investments are just upset they didn't get in the game and are just hoping this modern market fails. I just gave an example of a whole series that has appreciated backed up by facts. I don't hear anyone here saying anything with proven facts but just plain upset dealers making up opinions since they have spent most of their time learning classic coins only.
<< <i>ne good example are the Platinum Eagles, every one who has bought them from the mint every year has already came on top. That is an issue in which it has gone up only and for the entire series of 9 years. >>
I don't know about all the issues but the 2003 proof is still not up to it's mint price. The 2004 series is the only one that has skyrocketed.
<< <i>Collecting modern coins is no different from buying IPO's or contemporary paintings. These are all more popular in the short term than older coins, established companies and classical paintings. The problem is that in 25 years, a few of the modern coins, IPO's and contemporary paintings will be worth more but the vast majority of them will be worth 70%-80% less as the fad disappears. However, the older coins, established companies and classical paintings will have continued to appreciate, providing a solid real return >>
This is a great analogy with the IPO's (stocks).
...........................One might quibble about the percentage of moderns that are likely
to appreciate or the percentage of classics with staying power but otherwise I am in
much agreement with this.
There is one important difference though. It is usually very difficult to evaluate a comp-
any for very long term performance. Management changes. Everything changes from
its markets to its products. Coins are not so complicated. Predicting future behavior may
be no easier because they are still dependent on the whim of collectors, but there are
many things that collectors have always had in common. Whether someone collects
coins or pianos, they seek rarity, quality, importance, and artistry. They are drawn to
things that had been common but no one saved. They collect things that they did or might
have used themselves but are no longer found (at least in nice condition). They also have
an appreciation for things that are esoteric and strange. Look at some of the huge classic
"rarities" with huge prices like the 1804 dollar, '13 nickel, or even the '33 saint. How much
stranger can coins get? Many moderns are equally or even more strange and rare.
I believe it's possible to rate most of these coins on these scales and have an idea of how
I and some future collectors will value them but even where I'm wrong the coins are still
a lot of fun to collect in the here and now and most are making real money in the here and
now.
Time will tell.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I guess that he wouldn't be the "go to guy" for a gold anniversary set, then.
I knew it would happen.
roadrunner
Wouldn't it, now? Good observation, roadrunner!
I knew it would happen.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Very interesting read I must say.
-------------
etexmike
He has his opinion and that's fine, but what if someone here said essentially the same thing about classics, such as:
The grading services should either immediately cease slabbing classics and all that over-graded and over-dipped old crap, or issue strong black-box warning labels on all of this trash. It should read something like, "This slab is harmful to your financial health and should be purchased for amusement purposes only".
What a cry and hue there would be!
And since it seems to be an issue when Moderns are sold at a profit in a short time frame, why is it such a coup when a classic coin that hasn't been tampered with (too much, anyway) gets sold at an auction for 5 and 6 figures? You would think that it's only black vs. white, instead of points along the same danged continuum. "I have seen the enemy, and they are me." - Pogo.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>The question was asked what are the least attractive areas for rare coin investment. I think he answered correctly. I don't think he is knocking moderns as an area to collect or enjoy. John Albanese is a premier rare coin dealer and a grader's grader and works with people who treat numismatics as investments. >>
yup, that is the way i read it. Albanese is one of the most respected members in the coin community, and usually has an uncanny way of predicting what is a good long term buy/investment, and what isn't. He has also been noted (by Salzburg, Hall and others) to have two of the best grading eyes in the industry also. While the way he said it was a bit abrasive, i tend to agree with it.
<< <i>The question was asked what are the least attractive areas for rare coin investment. I think he answered correctly. I don't think he is knocking moderns as an area to collect or enjoy. John Albanese is a premier rare coin dealer and a grader's grader and works with people who treat numismatics as investments.
He has his opinion and that's fine, but what if someone here said essentially the same thing about classics, such as:
The grading services should either immediately cease slabbing classics and all that over-graded and over-dipped old crap, or issue strong black-box warning labels on all of this trash. It should read something like, "This slab is harmful to your financial health and should be purchased for amusement purposes only".
What a cry and hue there would be!
Someone here essentially said that in so many words and she was thrown off the boards.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I suggest that Albanese stick to his own preferences, and buy what he likes, while I do the same for myself without pissing on HIS parade!
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
She said that about everything that she wasn't hawking at the time, and she was essentially blaming the soft market in her high end coins on the TPGs, instead of on the lack of buying by collectors.
She almost got to the point of endorsing bullion when she suggested buying old common date U.S. gold, but she couldn't quite hack giving the same endorsement to Modern Bullion, which has out-performed common date U.S. gold with many recent issues.
I knew it would happen.
Collector of Early 20th Century U.S. Coinage.
ANA Member R-3147111
But at least it wasn't a modern.
<< <i>...And what's wrong with gas station souvenirs? He probably never even tried to find
a nice type 2 FDR Shell Mr President "coin" >>
When you get right down to it, John's problem with moderns is that John Albanese doesn't sell them.
Edit to add: Like 1804 proof eagles. He brokered one.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>
<< <i>...And what's wrong with gas station souvenirs? He probably never even tried to find
a nice type 2 FDR Shell Mr President "coin" >>
When you get right down to it, John's problem with moderns is that John Albanese doesn't sell them. >>
Actually, he does.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>...And what's wrong with gas station souvenirs? He probably never even tried to find
a nice type 2 FDR Shell Mr President "coin" >>
When you get right down to it, John's problem with moderns is that John Albanese doesn't sell them. >>
Actually, he does. >>
It just goes to show that anyone can be be saved.
just another classic genius flipping modern trash for his next
mercedes.
<< <i>
Arbitraging duplicates purchased directly from the mint is not coin collecting and has nothing to do with his advice. >>
He's selling 1972 pennies, too.
...And these are barely even coins at all as attested to by the fact that two years later the mint began the switch to aluminum.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
Arbitraging duplicates purchased directly from the mint is not coin collecting and has nothing to do with his advice. >>
He's selling 1972 pennies, too.
...And these are barely even coins at all as attested to by the fact that two years later the mint began the switch to aluminum.
You seem to be confusing Blanchard with J.A. >>
Drat. I have more trouble with this. I just followed the link.
Nevermind.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>...And what's wrong with gas station souvenirs? He probably never even tried to find
a nice type 2 FDR Shell Mr President "coin" >>
When you get right down to it, John's problem with moderns is that John Albanese doesn't sell them. >>
Actually, he does. >>
That is Blanchard, i don't think JA has any stake in Blanchard; different folks altogether
<< <i>
<< <i>He comes across as a pompous ass. >>
He's a nice guy - I like him.
Birds of a feather............................
his website has such crazy fabulous coins. sigh.
I think his comment is pretty closed minded. Clearly there have been excellent investment opportunities with what the mint has sold recently. And they were no brainers. So I guess I call that bad advice.
That's the funniest thing I've read all week...
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>...And what's wrong with gas station souvenirs? He probably never even tried to find
a nice type 2 FDR Shell Mr President "coin" >>
When you get right down to it, John's problem with moderns is that John Albanese doesn't sell them. >>
Actually, he does. >>
That is Blanchard, i don't think JA has any stake in Blanchard; different folks altogether >>
Link
Wasn't he the marketing director for the SS Republic shipwreck coins NCS/NGC handled?
Yes, or some such title.
Let's talk about Double Standards. It's ok to tout financial gain when you sell classic coins, but if you make any money in Moderns, you get called names. Besides being pretty juvenile in that regard, it's petty. Hmmmmm...........seems pretty simple to me. If I make money in Moderns, it's a mindless, clueless enterprise. If I can speculate on a 1913 nickel for 18 months and come out ahead, I am a blazing financial and numismatic genious! No double standard here, at all!
But, if I am Fletcher and buy into the high-end classic market as an actual collector of the stuff, I get endless crap because I might not know all of the die marriages and varieties of the whole series, and haven't sequestered myself for 10 years to become an "expert", thus I am not "qualified" to own such a coin. Does it matter that I am interested in the history and an avid student of coin collecting? Nope - sorry son - you have to be annointed - didn't you know?
Snob it up some more, fellas. By all means, blame the TPGs and the Modern Collectors. Pretty soon, you will have the whole classic market to yourselves and you can keep imagining that there is a bifucated market in classics, instead of an overpriced one.
Moderns from the Mint = No middlemen dealers = pissy attitude toward Moderns. Moderns = an active, vibrant market with amazingly high grade coins with tons of participants bidding to keep'em honest. Classics = a secretive, esoteric society of insiders who jealously guard the castle door from the masses of ordinary, so very ordinary collectors.
If this were Real Estate, and classic coin collectors/classic coin dealers were realtors, would they be talking about how stupid first-time homebuyers are for buying a small, but nice new house in a modest neighborhood? Would they be talking trash about a middle management guy who just sold his older home for a nice $150,000 gain? No, they would be after their business - obnoxiously so. It amazes me how blind and ridgid some classic guys can be by ignoring the very newcomers that they want to convert to their segment of the hobby. It really does amaze me.
Now, let's talk about Mr. David Hall. At one time, I thought that he was just another dealer and an upstart when he started PCGS. Jumping on the bandwagon with yet another gimmick, as it were. But I'll tell you one thing - he based his business model on reality, and he made it work, because he apparently assessed the demand for his product and made a committment. Gotta hand it to him - he actually must have listened to what the market was telling him! If some of the Modern-bashers around here had started PCGS, by now they would have about 300 slabs extant, with maybe 15 "qualified" customers, total.
If they don't get it by now, my guess is that they never will. Have a nice day! jmski
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Saying that JA sells moderns because he is Blanchard's numismatic expert and Blanchard sells moderns is quite the stretch - don't you think?
>>
thats what i was thinking. Blanchard actually points out that he consults on rare coins which basically means he has no dealing with their NCLT/bullion side of the business. one only has to look at JA's personal website to see where his business is.
Actually, I'd prefer investors stay away from moderns as well. I think calling the coins trash is poor form. JMO
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>The grading services should either immediately cease slabbing modern or bullion coins, or issue strong black-box warning labels on all of this trash. It should read something like, "This slab is harmful to your financial health and should be purchased for amusement purposes only". <whine, whine, whine - interpreted to mean "I am so envious of anyone that makes money, even if I make more money than they do.">
Let's talk about Double Standards. It's ok to tout financial gain when you sell classic coins, but if you make any money in Moderns, you get called names. Besides being pretty juvenile in that regard, it's petty. Hmmmmm...........seems pretty simple to me. If I make money in Moderns, it's a mindless, clueless enterprise. If I can speculate on a 1913 nickel for 18 months and come out ahead, I am a blazing financial and numismatic genious! No double standard here, at all!
But, if I am Fletcher and buy into the high-end classic market as an actual collector of the stuff, I get endless crap because I might not know all of the die marriages and varieties of the whole series, and haven't sequestered myself for 10 years to become an "expert", thus I am not "qualified" to own such a coin. Does it matter that I am interested in the history and an avid student of coin collecting? Nope - sorry son - you have to be annointed - didn't you know?
Snob it up some more, fellas. By all means, blame the TPGs and the Modern Collectors. Pretty soon, you will have the whole classic market to yourselves and you can keep imagining that there is a bifucated market in classics, instead of an overpriced one.
Moderns from the Mint = No middlemen dealers = pissy attitude toward Moderns. Moderns = an active, vibrant market with amazingly high grade coins with tons of participants bidding to keep'em honest. Classics = a secretive, esoteric society of insiders who jealously guard the castle door from the masses of ordinary, so very ordinary collectors.
If this were Real Estate, and classic coin collectors/classic coin dealers were realtors, would they be talking about how stupid first-time homebuyers are for buying a small, but nice new house in a modest neighborhood? Would they be talking trash about a middle management guy who just sold his older home for a nice $150,000 gain? No, they would be after their business - obnoxiously so. It amazes me how blind and ridgid some classic guys can be by ignoring the very newcomers that they want to convert to their segment of the hobby. It really does amaze me.
Now, let's talk about Mr. David Hall. At one time, I thought that he was just another dealer and an upstart when he started PCGS. Jumping on the bandwagon with yet another gimmick, as it were. But I'll tell you one thing - he based his business model on reality, and he made it work, because he apparently assessed the demand for his product and made a committment. Gotta hand it to him - he actually must have listened to what the market was telling him! If some of the Modern-bashers around here had started PCGS, by now they would have about 300 slabs extant, with maybe 15 "qualified" customers, total.
If they don't get it by now, my guess is that they never will. Have a nice day! jmski >>
You have some strong feelings about this........I did not know David Hall deals in moderns personally.....no reason why he should not be all over moderns relative to what pcgs does as a business model, as you suggest
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
thats what i was thinking. Blanchard actually points out that he consults on rare coins which basically means he has no dealing with their NCLT/bullion side of the business. one only has to look at JA's personal website to see where his business is.
At the very least, I doubt that he turns down filthy lucre from the sale of moderns as payment for his services on classics. Does John Albanese even have a personal website? If so, I can't find it (although the other Albanese site is easy to find).