I did not know David Hall deals in moderns personally.....no reason why he should not be all over moderns relative to what pcgs does as a business model, as you suggest
I don't know whether he deals in moderns as a coin dealer. I do know that PCGS grades alot of Moderns.
You have some strong feelings about this
I have strong feelings about whatever I choose to collect. Even more so, about whatever I choose to invest in. Regards, jmski
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>The grading services should either immediately cease slabbing modern or bullion coins, or issue strong black-box warning labels on all of this trash. It should read something like, "This slab is harmful to your financial health and should be purchased for amusement purposes only". <whine, whine, whine - interpreted to mean "I am so envious of anyone that makes money, even if I make more money than they do.">
Let's talk about Double Standards. It's ok to tout financial gain when you sell classic coins, but if you make any money in Moderns, you get called names. Besides being pretty juvenile in that regard, it's petty. Hmmmmm...........seems pretty simple to me. If I make money in Moderns, it's a mindless, clueless enterprise. If I can speculate on a 1913 nickel for 18 months and come out ahead, I am a blazing financial and numismatic genious! No double standard here, at all!
But, if I am Fletcher and buy into the high-end classic market as an actual collector of the stuff, I get endless crap because I might not know all of the die marriages and varieties of the whole series, and haven't sequestered myself for 10 years to become an "expert", thus I am not "qualified" to own such a coin. Does it matter that I am interested in the history and an avid student of coin collecting? Nope - sorry son - you have to be annointed - didn't you know?
Snob it up some more, fellas. By all means, blame the TPGs and the Modern Collectors. Pretty soon, you will have the whole classic market to yourselves and you can keep imagining that there is a bifucated market in classics, instead of an overpriced one.
Moderns from the Mint = No middlemen dealers = pissy attitude toward Moderns. Moderns = an active, vibrant market with amazingly high grade coins with tons of participants bidding to keep'em honest. Classics = a secretive, esoteric society of insiders who jealously guard the castle door from the masses of ordinary, so very ordinary collectors.
If this were Real Estate, and classic coin collectors/classic coin dealers were realtors, would they be talking about how stupid first-time homebuyers are for buying a small, but nice new house in a modest neighborhood? Would they be talking trash about a middle management guy who just sold his older home for a nice $150,000 gain? No, they would be after their business - obnoxiously so. It amazes me how blind and ridgid some classic guys can be by ignoring the very newcomers that they want to convert to their segment of the hobby. It really does amaze me.
Now, let's talk about Mr. David Hall. At one time, I thought that he was just another dealer and an upstart when he started PCGS. Jumping on the bandwagon with yet another gimmick, as it were. But I'll tell you one thing - he based his business model on reality, and he made it work, because he apparently assessed the demand for his product and made a committment. Gotta hand it to him - he actually must have listened to what the market was telling him! If some of the Modern-bashers around here had started PCGS, by now they would have about 300 slabs extant, with maybe 15 "qualified" customers, total.
If they don't get it by now, my guess is that they never will. Have a nice day! jmski >>
while i certainly respect most of what you say, and actually agree with some of your points, new moderns are getting a bad rap from their owners/flippers, not the coins themselves. These "dealers" that want "fresh" unopened boxes and the other modern speculators that post those annoying "i got hammered, grades in" posts on how they didn't get any MS/PF70s so their resell efforts are fruitless posts, just engender a used car salesmen mentality. I think what many modern coin fans (and i'm speaking of the really new stuff, 10 years old an newer) underestimate is the collector base. Much of what is bought and sold is done so with speculators selling amongst each other over and over again. Even the ones that are held by collectors are static in their condition; this is a good thing, as being sealed in a Mint capsule or slab all of its life protects the coin. Where it is bad is differentiating itself from the other coins, If they are all (98%+ anyway) MS/PF 68, 69, and 70, where does the true "value" lie? in this case of splitting hairs, would they have to be slabbed by PCGS or NGC to have any true value that differentiates them, as the modern "dealers" and speculators contend? kinda' like the common coin adage, don't buy a coin that is worth many times less what you paid, if it is simply cracked out of it's slab. The modern market is creating an environment where the coin has to be slabbed to know if it has "the stuff". I think it is a charade to have to tell a modern "collector" that his coin is really a big question mark on the value side, until he spends X amount of dollars in slabbing and shipping costs, sometimes this equates to more than he/she paid for the coin period!
Where it is bad is differentiating itself from the other coins, If they are all (98%+ anyway) MS/PF 68, 69, and 70, where does the true "value" lie? in this case of splitting hairs, would they have to be slabbed by PCGS or NGC to have any true value that differentiates them, as the modern "dealers" and speculators contend? kinda' like the common coin adage, don't buy a coin that is worth many times less what y
Doogy, all due respect - but that's exactly what I thought when they implemented the Sheldon numerical grading scale in the first place! And your comments don't just apply to Moderns. In my mind, there is no difference in distinguishing an AU-53 from an AU-55 or MS-61 vs. distinguishing a PR-69 from a PR-70. Both situations can get carried to extremes when serious money is involved. Both situations are ripe for abuse, if the $$$$$ are high enough and the opinions are in conflict. Grading is an imperfect art.
The choices are often dictated by price, in both cases. Knowledge and experience are not cost-free, so you cannot apply the principal to Moderns if you don't apply it to Classics as well. If you cannot distinguish between two coins of value, then you should find someone you trust who can advise you. PCGS is helpful in providing an opinion, but you'd be crazy not to form your own opinions, based on some knowledge and experience.
Regards, jmski
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Many of the coins in my album sets came from holders, and I'm still searching for a nice 69-P Washington in what any classic collector would call MS66, that doesn't have to be holdered for me to pay fair money for it. There are lots of other examples. Unfortunately, those that paint the category with such a broad brush always ignore the coins that don't fit their characterization.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>At the very least, I doubt that he turns down filthy lucre from the sale of moderns as payment for his services on classics.
Oh, geez. Guilt by association? Is that the best you can do? >>
If he is the face of Blanchard, which at least according to the website, he is, than as far as I am concerned, he is profiting somehow from what Blanchard is selling. I do not know what the relationship is, nor do I care, but the Blanchard website leads one to believe that he is involved with Blanchard.
The only place I have ever heard/seen anything negative about JA is here, from people who do not know him, never met him, never spoke with him, etc. The people I trust in numismatics trust and respect him, and that is good enough for me. I have had one interaction with him, about a year ago, and it was quite pleasant.
As for moderns, I think people should collect what they like and collect for enjoyment. I enjoy buying coins from the 18th century and the 21st century, and the two centuries in between. I have not purchased anything from the Mint yet this year, but only because I have not been interested in what has been offered.
Last week it was bashing anyone who didn't rush in and help newbies with moderns, and this week it's bashing anyone who doesn't rush in and help newbies with classics. Interesting pattern forming.
....he based his business model on reality, and he made it work, because he apparently assessed the demand for his product and made a committment. Gotta hand it to him - he actually must have listened to what the market was telling him! If some of the Modern-bashers around here had started PCGS, by now they would have about 300 slabs extant, with maybe 15 "qualified" customers, total.
If they don't get it by now, my guess is that they never will. Have a nice day! jmski
Did DH start PCGS with moderns in mind? Probably not. While I do not know all of Hall's reasons for starting PCGS I am fairly confident one was making money and the other was keeping the Federal Trade Commission at bay before the whole house of cards came down on the coin market from all the boiler houses and crooks. And keeping regulators out of coins was probably right up there. I don't think he was listening to the market as much as he was listening to the FEDs and his fellow dealers. I'm sure jail time to many dealers (who certainly deserved some) was a motivational factor.
<< <i>I tell you what, good luck finding a 59 Cameo Frankie..... Let alone a very scarce Deep Cameo......
search every proof set you can find, and lots of luck......... >>
I just sent a solid 59 cameo franklin off to NCS (and I just quoted a post made over a year ago...)
Please download this app to help fight cancer at 0 cost. At no extra cost to you purchases from Amazon and other participating retailers will benefit research!
Last week it was bashing anyone who didn't rush in and help newbies with moderns, and this week it's bashing anyone who doesn't rush in and help newbies with classics. Interesting pattern forming.
Bashing who? Please let me know which criticisms that I've mentioned that weren't fair or valid. If there's a pattern, it's probably to reveal some of the long-standing prejudices I've observed by an established group who are heavily vested in classic coins and have an antagonistic stance against everything else. I've observed nothing less than a continual harrassement towards Moderns, and I decided to point it out. So?
Modern collectors don't seem to bash classic guys, but many classic connoisseurs just can't seem to tolerate the enthusiasm of some of the newbies. Which newbie did I want you to rush in and help with classics? And even if I had an agenda such as you suggest (which I don't, at least consciously) what's the problem with showing some understanding towards a newb? What's your point about that?
So what if there's a bunch of speculators making money and posting too much about their latest exploits? So what? Find a topic that you think is interesting. What's so hard about that? Like I said, if you don't get it by now, you probably won't get it later on. Good Luck anyhow. jmski
Edited to correct syntax.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Comments
I don't know whether he deals in moderns as a coin dealer. I do know that PCGS grades alot of Moderns.
You have some strong feelings about this
I have strong feelings about whatever I choose to collect. Even more so, about whatever I choose to invest in. Regards, jmski
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>The grading services should either immediately cease slabbing modern or bullion coins, or issue strong black-box warning labels on all of this trash. It should read something like, "This slab is harmful to your financial health and should be purchased for amusement purposes only". <whine, whine, whine - interpreted to mean "I am so envious of anyone that makes money, even if I make more money than they do.">
Let's talk about Double Standards. It's ok to tout financial gain when you sell classic coins, but if you make any money in Moderns, you get called names. Besides being pretty juvenile in that regard, it's petty. Hmmmmm...........seems pretty simple to me. If I make money in Moderns, it's a mindless, clueless enterprise. If I can speculate on a 1913 nickel for 18 months and come out ahead, I am a blazing financial and numismatic genious! No double standard here, at all!
But, if I am Fletcher and buy into the high-end classic market as an actual collector of the stuff, I get endless crap because I might not know all of the die marriages and varieties of the whole series, and haven't sequestered myself for 10 years to become an "expert", thus I am not "qualified" to own such a coin. Does it matter that I am interested in the history and an avid student of coin collecting? Nope - sorry son - you have to be annointed - didn't you know?
Snob it up some more, fellas. By all means, blame the TPGs and the Modern Collectors. Pretty soon, you will have the whole classic market to yourselves and you can keep imagining that there is a bifucated market in classics, instead of an overpriced one.
Moderns from the Mint = No middlemen dealers = pissy attitude toward Moderns. Moderns = an active, vibrant market with amazingly high grade coins with tons of participants bidding to keep'em honest. Classics = a secretive, esoteric society of insiders who jealously guard the castle door from the masses of ordinary, so very ordinary collectors.
If this were Real Estate, and classic coin collectors/classic coin dealers were realtors, would they be talking about how stupid first-time homebuyers are for buying a small, but nice new house in a modest neighborhood? Would they be talking trash about a middle management guy who just sold his older home for a nice $150,000 gain? No, they would be after their business - obnoxiously so. It amazes me how blind and ridgid some classic guys can be by ignoring the very newcomers that they want to convert to their segment of the hobby. It really does amaze me.
Now, let's talk about Mr. David Hall. At one time, I thought that he was just another dealer and an upstart when he started PCGS. Jumping on the bandwagon with yet another gimmick, as it were. But I'll tell you one thing - he based his business model on reality, and he made it work, because he apparently assessed the demand for his product and made a committment. Gotta hand it to him - he actually must have listened to what the market was telling him! If some of the Modern-bashers around here had started PCGS, by now they would have about 300 slabs extant, with maybe 15 "qualified" customers, total.
If they don't get it by now, my guess is that they never will. Have a nice day! jmski >>
while i certainly respect most of what you say, and actually agree with some of your points, new moderns are getting a bad rap from their owners/flippers, not the coins themselves. These "dealers" that want "fresh" unopened boxes and the other modern speculators that post those annoying "i got hammered, grades in" posts on how they didn't get any MS/PF70s so their resell efforts are fruitless posts, just engender a used car salesmen mentality. I think what many modern coin fans (and i'm speaking of the really new stuff, 10 years old an newer) underestimate is the collector base. Much of what is bought and sold is done so with speculators selling amongst each other over and over again. Even the ones that are held by collectors are static in their condition; this is a good thing, as being sealed in a Mint capsule or slab all of its life protects the coin. Where it is bad is differentiating itself from the other coins, If they are all (98%+ anyway) MS/PF 68, 69, and 70, where does the true "value" lie? in this case of splitting hairs, would they have to be slabbed by PCGS or NGC to have any true value that differentiates them, as the modern "dealers" and speculators contend? kinda' like the common coin adage, don't buy a coin that is worth many times less what you paid, if it is simply cracked out of it's slab. The modern market is creating an environment where the coin has to be slabbed to know if it has "the stuff". I think it is a charade to have to tell a modern "collector" that his coin is really a big question mark on the value side, until he spends X amount of dollars in slabbing and shipping costs, sometimes this equates to more than he/she paid for the coin period!
Doogy, all due respect - but that's exactly what I thought when they implemented the Sheldon numerical grading scale in the first place! And your comments don't just apply to Moderns. In my mind, there is no difference in distinguishing an AU-53 from an AU-55 or MS-61 vs. distinguishing a PR-69 from a PR-70. Both situations can get carried to extremes when serious money is involved. Both situations are ripe for abuse, if the $$$$$ are high enough and the opinions are in conflict. Grading is an imperfect art.
The choices are often dictated by price, in both cases. Knowledge and experience are not cost-free, so you cannot apply the principal to Moderns if you don't apply it to Classics as well. If you cannot distinguish between two coins of value, then you should find someone you trust who can advise you. PCGS is helpful in providing an opinion, but you'd be crazy not to form your own opinions, based on some knowledge and experience.
Regards, jmski
I knew it would happen.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>At the very least, I doubt that he turns down filthy lucre from the sale of moderns as payment for his services on classics.
Oh, geez. Guilt by association? Is that the best you can do? >>
If he is the face of Blanchard, which at least according to the website, he is, than as far as I am concerned, he is profiting somehow from what Blanchard is selling. I do not know what the relationship is, nor do I care, but the Blanchard website leads one to believe that he is involved with Blanchard.
The only place I have ever heard/seen anything negative about JA is here, from people who do not know him, never met him, never spoke with him, etc. The people I trust in numismatics trust and respect him, and that is good enough for me. I have had one interaction with him, about a year ago, and it was quite pleasant.
As for moderns, I think people should collect what they like and collect for enjoyment. I enjoy buying coins from the 18th century and the 21st century, and the two centuries in between. I have not purchased anything from the Mint yet this year, but only because I have not been interested in what has been offered.
Yep. But in case it wasn't clear, the reference to "filthy lucre" was sarcastic.
and help newbies with classics. Interesting pattern forming.
....he based his business model on reality, and he made it work, because he apparently assessed the demand for his product and made a committment. Gotta hand it to him - he actually must have listened to what the market was telling him! If some of the Modern-bashers around here had started PCGS, by now they would have about 300 slabs extant, with maybe 15 "qualified" customers, total.
If they don't get it by now, my guess is that they never will. Have a nice day! jmski
Did DH start PCGS with moderns in mind? Probably not. While I do not know all of Hall's reasons for starting PCGS I am fairly confident one was making money and the other was keeping the Federal Trade Commission at bay before the whole house of cards came down on the coin market from all the boiler houses and crooks. And keeping regulators out of coins was probably right up there. I don't think he was listening to the market as much as he was listening to the FEDs and his fellow dealers. I'm sure jail time to many dealers (who certainly deserved some) was a motivational factor.
roadrunner
<< <i>I tell you what, good luck finding a 59 Cameo Frankie..... Let alone a very scarce Deep Cameo......
search every proof set you can find, and lots of luck......... >>
I just sent a solid 59 cameo franklin off to NCS (and I just quoted a post made over a year ago...)
http://my.affinity.is/cancer-research?referral_code=MjI4Nzgz
While they have not had the benefit of age bestowed upon them, some modern coins will eventually become classics.
Its a matter of individual taste that drives your likes or dislikes of thier designs.
I have some modern coins in my collection. I have made some money on them.
Time will tell if the moon money will still be there. I hope I live to learn the answer.
And that is what I have to say about that.
First Place Winner of the 2005 Rampage design contest!
Bashing who? Please let me know which criticisms that I've mentioned that weren't fair or valid. If there's a pattern, it's probably to reveal some of the long-standing prejudices I've observed by an established group who are heavily vested in classic coins and have an antagonistic stance against everything else. I've observed nothing less than a continual harrassement towards Moderns, and I decided to point it out. So?
Modern collectors don't seem to bash classic guys, but many classic connoisseurs just can't seem to tolerate the enthusiasm of some of the newbies. Which newbie did I want you to rush in and help with classics? And even if I had an agenda such as you suggest (which I don't, at least consciously) what's the problem with showing some understanding towards a newb? What's your point about that?
So what if there's a bunch of speculators making money and posting too much about their latest exploits? So what? Find a topic that you think is interesting. What's so hard about that? Like I said, if you don't get it by now, you probably won't get it later on. Good Luck anyhow. jmski
Edited to correct syntax.
I knew it would happen.