the 55 mantle correct is rarer than the daley the book is still out on which is rarer l or r or l-r i believe that it depends on the color since the population is so small and the coins are in the hands of the collectors we will only know when collectors ome forward i would say ive seen 5 daleys for every correct mantle HOWEVER, the rarest coin that ive encountered is the corrected reverse harvey kuenn good luck with that one
For those with Armour interest, I have finally gotten most of my 55 blacks graded and have entered a registry set "42nd street" all in pristine black. It appears all variations exist in black and my goal is still to get all 33.
If anyone out there has a more complete set than this one, let me know
one last comment on prices a blue bud daley sells for 355...maybe less than 5 in existance a black mantel sell for 405 ive seen 3 and a drysdale psa 9 sells for over 300? because its in a holder there are probably 1000s of drysdale that will grade 9 does it make sense to anyone 1960 common armour coins could become the next mark mcgwire rookie remember when he sold for 600-700 in a 9 and now he sell for 40 maybe if your making a high grade set fine, but you missed the boat on a rare bud daley if your looking to invest, buy 1955s in high grade and rare colors in any grade
both SFLA and I have ascertianed that the "bucket" find of 1960 armours contains ~ 1100 coins mainly in yellow red/orange and some pale green. I have checked my records and this is what I find: year / total coins graded / (PSA 9 + 10)
May 2006 March 2007
1955 260 (113) 378 (164)
1959 281 (163) 414 (207)
1960 522 (247) 1130 (516)
I think all of these will eventually be absorbed by the hobby, and this short term glut of high grade coins does not seem to be affecting the EBay sales prices YET. .......I guess we will see !
according to the guy who found the bucket we're gonna see another 5-600 high grade 1950s in yellow and orange including complete set minus the daley in major auctions 355 for olive green daley and blue daleys kudos to the winner of these 2 coins its unlikely youll see those on ebay for another 10 years if he puts those in a mastro auction he'll get 1000 a piece we already see a major dealer like kris keppler scooped up a bunch of 9s and 10s and now hes relisted them on ebay to try and make a big profit of course he has no bids and wont get any as anyone who wants one can just wait for velvet to list a few hundred more BUY all 1955s and all rare colors from all years
velvet4U who found the armour bucket containing ~1,100 1960 coins has got the remaining coins up for auction on Mastronet. Here is the isting :
"There is a charm to these high relief plastic coins that has always captured the imagination of collectors. Armour began including plastic baseball coins as inserts with meat products in 1955. Because of the nature of the product the items accompanied, the plastic coins made a lot of sense; no stains and no elaborate packaging needed to protect them from the food. This group is from the firm's 1960 edition, which would also be the final Armour promotion of this nature. The 1960 offering included only 20 different players plus three variations. All of the issue's content variations are represented in the assembly, and each playing the set (except one, Bud Daley) is included in this giant assortment of 703 coins. In total, 75 coins have been graded by PSA. Includes: Aaron/Braves (62, including two MINT 9 and six NM-MT 8), Aaron/Milwaukee Braves (11), Allison (4), Banks (73, including two MINT 9), Boyer (17), Colavito (5), Conley (16), Crandall (89), Drysdale/Condensed L.A. (10), Drysdale/Spaced Out L.A. (5), Ford (18), Fox (67), Kaline (4), Malzone/Red Sox (56), Malzone/Boston Red Sox (32), Mantle (67, including two MINT 9 and thirteen NM-MT 8), Mathews (26), Mays (5), Pinson (23), Stuart (14), Triandos (82) and Wynn (17). The overwhelming majority of this lot presents at the EX/MT to NM level with many NM/MT or better. The collection includes:
I think I saw that three black coins will be up in one of the auctions soon...
I am actively buying MIKE SCHMIDT gem mint baseball cards. Also looking for any 19th century cabinets of Philadephia Nationals. Please PM with additional details.
I just got back from the Hollywood Park show, Andy Madec's upcoming auction has 3 black '55's, all graded. Haddix and Turley in a 9, and Reynolds in an 8. He's also got a lot of 2 different Daleys, Red PSA 8 and Yellow PSA 7. There was also another dealer there with a handful of the blacks, and all kinds of other colors. I'm certainly not an expert on these but he was very excited to have such a variety. PM me if you want more info.
edited to add- Andy also has a high grade lot of 3 '55 Mantles. Blue "mantel" PSA 8, yellow "mantel" PSA 9, and a correct green one in PSA 8.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
it appears that the find is not over yet as velvet4u is still listing his 1960 psa 8 9 10s same old coins as always so maybe that 1200 coin find was really 1500 who knows yellow and orange 1960 coins are now very very common
Hello all. For some reason my nickname was loading before as "armourguy" it is now loadingas the correct "ArmourPhil" - we are one in the same ! Anyway I thought we might pick up the armour discussion now that a year has passed. It appears that the large 1960 coin find from early last year has been absorbed by the market with little impact on prices. It has allowed (2) 1960 sets to be put together on the set registry with 9.78 and 9.96 ratings, something I never thought I'd see. This has pushed my 1960 set "stoop ball" into the #4 position with a 9.29.....thats OK I always liked competition.
My 1959 set "Hells Kitchen" still holds #1 with a 9.55 and I have added two color specific sets "45th street park" which is done in the rare pale yellow and "Elliot Tricca" which is done in the rare pink and pale blues. By the way I noticed that the #2 set "Larrys suite of armour" is being auctioned off this month.
My prize 1955 set "A Train" still holds the #1 spot with a 9.24. This set has so many variations that this will probably be the toughest set to displace....... so the gauntlet has been thrown down !! I have also added a set called "PS-51" which is in 2nd place and my pride and joy "42nd street" which is done all in black, which if you look at the first entry in this thread you'll see was one of my original goals. I am 2 mantles and 2 kuenns away from completion, but these are very difficult coins to find in any condition.
VARIATIONS: no new variations have been found since Larry, Doug and I compared coins 3 or 4 years ago, but new colors keep popping up all the time which keeps the Armour collectors interest up.
1960 colors: One new 1960 color is a blue that I'm calling "slate blue"...it is a blue grey close to the color of slate (see attached pic- ) I now have this color for 5 diff players including MAntle ; left to right top row: grey blue (rarely seen witrh full back rims), royal blue and pale blue....bottom row: aqua, slate blue and navy blue
In terms of 1960 greens we always think of the "lime green" color, but there is a more normal green also. This is shown by the BAnks coins , the lime being on the right.
In the 1959 set I have come across a dark slate blue for several coins including the robinson that is shown and a very unique "brown" coin of ashburn. Neither of these appear to be swirls, they appear to be unique colors.
So...what unique colors have you all found out there ?? Lets see them !
Hello, I was looking for some information on the 1959 Armour coins and found this interesting message board. I was hoping someone could educate me a bit about the history of the 1959 Armour coins; specifically how these coins were actually packaged within the hot dog products and were the coins available via a mail-in offer. My only comparable experience is with the 1961 Post Cereal Baseball Card set ... I own a complete set of 200. I know there's actually 357 with variations, but I'm happy with what I have.
The only Armour coin I own is a 1959 Bob Cerv (can't tell if it's red or orange) that's sealed in a little plastic bag. There are actually two contiguous plastic bags ... one contains the Cerv coin and the other is empty and open at one end. The two bags are sealed between them via some sort of heating or embossing mark. Not sure if I'm describing this clearly enough ... I can provide an image if anyone is interested.
I figure it's one of two things. Either someone stored their coin collection and sealed these plastic bags themselves or this is how these coins were originally packaged (doubtful).
Can anyone help me figure this one out?
Also, I've read some interesting messages concerning rims ... what does a complete rim look like vs. one that's not?
this is not the original packaging. Were no little plastic bags back then. Hard to remember when I was 10 years old, but I think they were pressed into the cardboard that was under the hot dogs. I do recall that you couldnt see which one was in the package from the outside.
The 59s were available as mail in offers, but only the common colors. ( red, orange, green, navy, "royal blue"), This is why the non common colors are so rare. There are only 20 diff 1959 players but at least 25 unique colors and two offsets of the "bust" of the player (we call these bust tilts) to the lettering around the edges for nearly al of them. No one will ever have a "complete" armour set for any of the 3 years.
About the rims - only a manufacturing issue in 1960 and especialy related to MAntle for some reason. I'd say 80+ % of the MAntles have part of the outside rim missing. If they were cards they would be called "misscut" I dont have any available right now, but you will know one if you see it. ......ArmourPhil
Been a while since we had any conversations on this thread so I though I'd update with some thoughts.
I had very mixed emotions last spring when PSA announced that an armour coin set had won set of years honors in the "odd ball" catagory " (I think). Anyway they chose "West Coast" the #1 set in 1960 . This may have given armour collectors a shot of respect, but, at the same time, it was a slap in the face to me. First of all "West Coast" chooses to not let us see his set and has no contact information (not a very friendly type - but this is a free country ). Secondly, a 9.78 may sound great but this in no way the most difficult set to finish in high grade. Matter of fact the several thousand coin find a few years ago (read back in this thread for the exact coin descriptions) made it very easy for anyone with the cash to simply buy the PSA 10s necessary to finish this set. There are 198 10's available. Yes the Daley is a rare coin, but there are now 6 PSA 10s and 10s exist for all of the coins and the variations which are not very rare (aaron, drysdale, malzone).
I was overjoyed this spring when the "Dicioccio collection" came up with the last PSA 10 needed for a perfect 10 set to displace "West Coast" - Bravo Dioccio !
That said, the 55 set is the real toughie. There are 24 different players, with nine additional variations (with 2 more on the way) for 33 coins. Seven of the coins have no reported 10's , one the mantle correct [L-R] has no 10s or 9's and the Trucks white sox (two words) has only one 9. This is the true tough set in armour coins, not the 1960 set.
Basically my attitude is screw the incompetent judges whoever they were. I know, and any true armour collector knows, that the best Armour set ever compliled and graded is "A Train" , 100% complete with a meager 8.99 and 23/33 PSA 10s.
The only credible argument that could be made with this would be in favor of "42nd St" which is an all black (rare color) 1955 set which is one Kuenn and one mantle away from being complete, although with very few 9's or 10's cause they don't exist. I challenge anyone with any amount of money to come up with a complete 1955 set in black or any other rare color !
Having said that, if Doug Stultz ever decides to grade his 1955's I'm sure my rule in 1955 Armours will come to an end. Doug is the man when it comes to 1955 Armours ! His article in SCD 22 years ago got me restarted collecting Armours.
Anyway, now that I've vented on PSA and whined about not being picked for an award, on to some new Armour info......
Another Guilliam variation was added to the 1955 set by Std Catalog of BB Cards last year after I sent them the necessary evidence. I have several of these now being graded so the PSA set should reflect this shortly. The variation is a tight vs spread variation of the Brooklyn Dodgers on the front of the coin similar to the '55 Kuenn and the '60 Drysdale.
A similar variation of Haddix has been found and is going thjrough the SCD verification process as we speak.
As of this month there are now 787 1955s graded with 67 PSA 10s; 807 1959s graded with 77 PSA 10s and 1608 1960's graded with 198 PSA 10s. For perspective, if I recall correctly, PSA started grading these in 2004 timeframe so 3200 of them have been graded in the last 5 years.
1959 Oddity - 1959 has no PSA 10 Blasingame, a very common player of that year widely available for a few dollars ungraded ??
As I mentioned earlier, I am convinced ( and I think fellow collector Larry Serota is also) that the rarest Armour coin is Mantle correct spelling [L-R] not Daley and not any other coin. The rarest of the rare are therefore this coin in any rare '55 color. Some of these color variations have never been seen by anyone and may not even exist. Does this coin exist in gold or silver ??
1955 grading is now in SMR (web version). Serota, Stultz and I developed the pricing this spring. These have come from a decade of watching EBay prices. They got screwed up recently, but are now fixed - take a look on line and see if you agree ?
Got the last 1959 pale yellow I needed for my "45th street park" set. All 20 coins in pale yellow has taken me about a decade to acquire. It will be the first complete rare color Armour set put together in PSA.
Also sent off a Thomas pale pink for grading. This is the last pale pink I needed for my "Elliot Tricca" pale blue /pale pink set. I started off thinking the pale pinks would be the hardest to find, but I was incorrect, I'm still missing 4 pale blues. The dark pink are rarer than either pale blue or pale pink. Still missing 5 of those.
Some colors are just appear to be "liked" more than others. For instance 1955 black is highly sought after (and bid up on EBay) although it is NOT the rarest 1955 color. In a similar way, pink has always been a hot item in 1959 even though other colors like cream are much more difficult to find.
more later....
Hope everyone has a great Labor Day weekend............................ArmourPhil
hey phil havent been on this board for awhile yes indeed the 55 mantle correct l-r is the rarest coin of any year in my opinion as evidence to this, after 11 years now of collecting the mantles, and going to every national and looking at every auction catalog, there is still one so called common color correct l-r that i have never seen and 2 other so called common colors ive only seen one of also 2 common colors of the slightly less rare l or r that ive only seen one of as for rare color mantles ive seen 3 black mantels 1 correct l or r and 1 correct l-r even doug stulz with well over 1000 55s does not have correct mantles as for other rare color mantel or mantles i have 3 total lime mantel lime mantle correct l-r and dark green mantel and these are the only other rare color 55 mantles i have ever seen as for the rare shades(colors) pale chalky yellow, pink orange,dark red translucent they have only been seen in mantel version and are also quite scarce sflayank
been awhile since we had any discussion on this thread.
In the last 6 months there have been several 1955 Armour variation finds which I will detail here.
You have seen by now that that the Std Cataolg has added the Guilliam tight variation and therefore I was able to get it added to the 1955 set registry. No question here thatthe tight variation is the rare one
There is also a tight variation for Haddix (see attached pic). I'll give myself credit for finding this one.
Then a few months ago Laura Salzy came up with two more.
The Snider coin comes with batting average "341" (correct version) or ".341" (error version) . At this point not sure if either are rare. I appear to have more of the .341 variation.
She also found a finnigan variation. If you look closely at the back of the coin you can find home town as both "Quincy" and "Ouincy" break out you mag glass for this one, but sure enough it is real. Again hard to tell if one is significantly rarer than the other at this point.
My 1955 all black registry set "42nd street" is missing guilliam (L-R narrow gap); Kuenn (condensed) & Mantle (L or R) ....that is until these other variations are added to the set. ....If any of you know where I can find any of these coins in black let me know ....thats it for now ....ArmourPhil
very long time since anyone was here still looking for any mantle correct version 1955s as well as all players in gold silver tan dark green 1955s sflayank@aol.com
Latest blog is on the silver 1955 Gilliam that was up for auction on EBay a few weeks ago. I contacted the seller because it looked "not quite right" and upon examination found it had been spray painted.
The only other one I have ever seen for sale or auction is a silver Berra.
Tell you the truth, I'm beginning to wonder whether silver is a real color or has always been fake and come out of a spray can !
You might also want to check out my blog on the 1960 Daley "test" colors !
Saw the silver Berra PSA-7 on eBay a few weeks ago (for $7500) and noticed its been taken down. I assumed someone bought it off line. Did you contact the seller stating it might be fake? I also so a gold '55 as well that's no longer listed
Yes, that's the one. I have no proof that this is a fake and am not claiming that since I have never examined it.
Not that its slabbed that is no longer an option.
It is a little strange that in 50 years of collecting the Berra is the only one that has ever showed up. I have seen it more than once.
The Gilliam absolutely was a fake.
Note added Sun 6 PM : I just sent off a message to Doug Stultz who is the only man that knows more about these than I do. I'll post what he comes back with.
Note added Sun 9:45 PM Doug Stultz the father of armour coins responded that he has two silvers Berra and Mueller and they are real. Good enough for me . I retract my doubts.
For those of you that havn't found it yet wanted to make everyone aware that I have been posting all that I know about Armour Coins at my web site [ http://armourcoins.blogspot.com/ ] Since it has gotten > 10,000 hits so far ,this has become THE SITE for Armour Coin info. .....
Just checked out the site.. Nice info and great images. But it almost seems to me like there was no standardization in the colors . Is it possible some of the various shades were made by mixing two different colors of plastics that they had in shorter abundance to make enough of a color to do a full run ? And while I feel like some of the color variations are mixtures of many classic colors or the results of uncleared molds, I do think PSA should have registries for some of the more dominant colors in the settings such as blue, green, red, and the black, given the difference in selling price of some of the rarer colors compared to the more common colors
chipotle cowboy...I love talking armour coin colors. The unwritten rule we Armour collectors have is that a color cannot be classified until we find at least 5 or 6 different players in the same exact color.
For instance the 1955 Azure blue color became real when we found a total of 11 diff coins in this color. Same for peach, tan, dark red transparent etc. There are lots of others where we have seen one of a kinds or just a few. The olive green (yellow/green) that's on my web page has showed up for Trucks and Kuenn and another collector reports a third player that I forget at this moment. If a few more show up that will join the very rare color group.
In terms of mixing colors in the early stages of mixing you get what we are calling swirls like you see when you mix ice cream flavors. If you keep stirring it up, of coarse you will get a new color. We think the coins were only made in a few sites on a few molds (we know there were diff molds from "bust tilts (see web page) so if you see the same rare color with bust tilts then you can confirm that the color was on purpose since it was made exactly the same in multiple locations.....make sense ?
In terms of PSA labeling the colors the problem is that their graders will not be able to tell the colors apart unless someone shows them examples. If hey start mislabeling them this will create a big mess for us collectors.
As an example for you, SFLAYank and I can confirm 21 distinct diff colors for 1960 Mantle's.
What they really need to do is make color labeling optional. The charge an extra fee for this service and they send them to me once every 2 weeks to properly define the colors.
Does anyone know if I can submit 1950s and 1960s Armour Coins with a bulk sub? Or is there a separate form/fee for these or can they be subbed for the $8/card like the other bulk cards? Thanks for your help.
Comments
the book is still out on which is rarer l or r or l-r
i believe that it depends on the color
since the population is so small and the coins are in the hands of the collectors
we will only know when collectors ome forward
i would say ive seen 5 daleys for every correct mantle
HOWEVER, the rarest coin that ive encountered is the corrected reverse harvey kuenn
good luck with that one
If anyone out there has a more complete set than this one, let me know
a blue bud daley sells for 355...maybe less than 5 in existance
a black mantel sell for 405 ive seen 3
and a drysdale psa 9 sells for over 300? because its in a holder
there are probably 1000s of drysdale that will grade 9
does it make sense to anyone
1960 common armour coins could become the next mark mcgwire rookie
remember when he sold for 600-700 in a 9
and now he sell for 40 maybe
if your making a high grade set fine, but you missed the boat on a rare bud daley
if your looking to invest, buy 1955s in high grade and rare colors in any grade
both SFLA and I have ascertianed that the "bucket" find of 1960 armours contains ~ 1100 coins mainly in yellow red/orange and some pale green. I have checked my records and this is what I find: year / total coins graded / (PSA 9 + 10)
May 2006 March 2007
1955 260 (113) 378 (164)
1959 281 (163) 414 (207)
1960 522 (247) 1130 (516)
I think all of these will eventually be absorbed by the hobby, and this short term glut of high grade coins does not seem to be affecting the EBay sales prices YET. .......I guess we will see !
including complete set minus the daley in major auctions
355 for olive green daley and blue daleys
kudos to the winner of these 2 coins its unlikely youll see those on ebay for another 10 years
if he puts those in a mastro auction he'll get 1000 a piece
we already see a major dealer like kris keppler scooped up a bunch of 9s and 10s and now hes relisted them on ebay to try and make a big profit
of course he has no bids and wont get any as anyone who wants one can just wait for velvet to list a few hundred more
BUY all 1955s and all rare colors from all years
39 different mantle now
thank you to the party who sold it to me
"There is a charm to these high relief plastic coins that has always captured the imagination of collectors. Armour began including plastic baseball coins as inserts with meat products in 1955. Because of the nature of the product the items accompanied, the plastic coins made a lot of sense; no stains and no elaborate packaging needed to protect them from the food. This group is from the firm's 1960 edition, which would also be the final Armour promotion of this nature. The 1960 offering included only 20 different players plus three variations. All of the issue's content variations are represented in the assembly, and each playing the set (except one, Bud Daley) is included in this giant assortment of 703 coins. In total, 75 coins have been graded by PSA. Includes: Aaron/Braves (62, including two MINT 9 and six NM-MT 8), Aaron/Milwaukee Braves (11), Allison (4), Banks (73, including two MINT 9), Boyer (17), Colavito (5), Conley (16), Crandall (89), Drysdale/Condensed L.A. (10), Drysdale/Spaced Out L.A. (5), Ford (18), Fox (67), Kaline (4), Malzone/Red Sox (56), Malzone/Boston Red Sox (32), Mantle (67, including two MINT 9 and thirteen NM-MT 8), Mathews (26), Mays (5), Pinson (23), Stuart (14), Triandos (82) and Wynn (17). The overwhelming majority of this lot presents at the EX/MT to NM level with many NM/MT or better. The collection includes:
Graded Coins - Graded PSA MINT 9: 10 coins w/ Aaron/Braves (2), Banks (2), Crandall, Malzone/Red Sox, Mantle (2) and Triandos (2); PSA NM-MT 8: 36 coins w/ Aaron/Braves (6), Aaron/Milwaukee Braves (2), Conley, Crandall (2), Ford, Fox (3), Malzone/Red Sox (2), Malzone/Boston Red Sox (3), Mantle (13), Mathews, Stuart and Triandos; PSA NM 7: 23 coins w/ Aaron/Braves (7), Aaron/Milwaukee Braves (2), Banks, Boyer, Colavito, Drysdale/Condensed, Drysdale/Space Between, Mantle (7), Mays and Wynn; PSA EX-MT 6: 6 coins w/ Aaron/Braves, Aaron/Milwaukee Braves, Allison, Kaline, Mantle and Pinson.
PLAYERS (colors and quantities):
Aaron/Braves (Yellow-43, Green-19) 29% grade VG due to missing or partial reverse rims;
Aaron/Milwaukee Braves (Yellow-9, Green-2);
Allison (Orange-4);
Banks (Green-14, Yellow-59) 26% grade VG due to missing or partial reverse rims;
Boyer (Orange-17);
Colavito (Orange-5);
Conley (Orange-16);
Crandall (Green-17, Yellow-72);
Drysdale/Condensed L.A. (Orange-10);
Drysdale/Spaced Out L.A. (Orange-5);
Ford (Orange-18);
Fox (Green-12, Yellow-55) 5% grade VG due to missing or partial reverse rims;
Kaline (Orange-4);
Malzone/Red Sox (Green-6, Orange-1, Yellow-49);
Malzone/Boston Red Sox (Green-8, Yellow-24);
Mantle (Green-24, Yellow-43) 67% grade VG due to missing or partial reverse rims;
Mathews (Orange-26);
Mays (Orange-5);
Pinson (Orange-23);
Stuart (Orange-14);
Triandos (Green-18, Yellow-64);
Wynn (Orange-17)."
make your sets of common colors
then work on the rare ones
There was also another dealer there with a handful of the blacks, and all kinds of other colors. I'm certainly not an expert on these but he was very excited to have such a variety. PM me if you want more info.
edited to add- Andy also has a high grade lot of 3 '55 Mantles. Blue "mantel" PSA 8, yellow "mantel" PSA 9, and a correct green one in PSA 8.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
same old coins as always
so maybe that 1200 coin find was really 1500
who knows
yellow and orange 1960 coins are now very very common
but with missing rims could be tough to make money
unless psa grades them 8s
12 55 mantels
6 55 mantle corrects
6 55 mantle correct 2nd reverse
16 1960s
My 1959 set "Hells Kitchen" still holds #1 with a 9.55 and I have added two color specific sets "45th street park" which is done in the rare pale yellow and "Elliot Tricca" which is done in the rare pink and pale blues. By the way I noticed that the #2 set "Larrys suite of armour" is being auctioned off this month.
My prize 1955 set "A Train" still holds the #1 spot with a 9.24. This set has so many variations that this will probably be the toughest set to displace....... so the gauntlet has been thrown down !! I have also added a set called "PS-51" which is in 2nd place and my pride and joy "42nd street" which is done all in black, which if you look at the first entry in this thread you'll see was one of my original goals. I am 2 mantles and 2 kuenns away from completion, but these are very difficult coins to find in any condition.
VARIATIONS: no new variations have been found since Larry, Doug and I compared coins 3 or 4 years ago, but new colors keep popping up all the time which keeps the Armour collectors interest up.
1960 colors: One new 1960 color is a blue that I'm calling "slate blue"...it is a blue grey close to the color of slate (see attached pic- ) I now have this color for 5 diff players including MAntle ; left to right top row: grey blue (rarely seen witrh full back rims), royal blue and pale blue....bottom row: aqua, slate blue and navy blue
In terms of 1960 greens we always think of the "lime green" color, but there is a more normal green also. This is shown by the BAnks coins , the lime being on the right.
In the 1959 set I have come across a dark slate blue for several coins including the robinson that is shown and a very unique "brown" coin of ashburn. Neither of these appear to be swirls, they appear to be unique colors.
So...what unique colors have you all found out there ?? Lets see them !
The only Armour coin I own is a 1959 Bob Cerv (can't tell if it's red or orange) that's sealed in a little plastic bag. There are actually two contiguous plastic bags ... one contains the Cerv coin and the other is empty and open at one end. The two bags are sealed between them via some sort of heating or embossing mark. Not sure if I'm describing this clearly enough ... I can provide an image if anyone is interested.
I figure it's one of two things. Either someone stored their coin collection and sealed these plastic bags themselves or this is how these coins were originally packaged (doubtful).
Can anyone help me figure this one out?
Also, I've read some interesting messages concerning rims ... what does a complete rim look like vs. one that's not?
Thanks in advance for your help.
Dave
The 59s were available as mail in offers, but only the common colors. ( red, orange, green, navy, "royal blue"), This is why the non common colors are so rare. There are only 20 diff 1959 players but at least 25 unique colors and two offsets of the "bust" of the player (we call these bust tilts) to the lettering around the edges for nearly al of them. No one will ever have a "complete" armour set for any of the 3 years.
About the rims - only a manufacturing issue in 1960 and especialy related to MAntle for some reason. I'd say 80+ % of the MAntles have part of the outside rim missing. If they were cards they would be called "misscut" I dont have any available right now, but you will know one if you see it. ......ArmourPhil
Do you know how the coins from the mail in offer were packaged?
I had very mixed emotions last spring when PSA announced that an armour coin set had won set of years honors in the "odd ball" catagory " (I think). Anyway they chose "West Coast" the #1 set in 1960 . This may have given armour collectors a shot of respect, but, at the same time, it was a slap in the face to me. First of all "West Coast" chooses to not let us see his set and has no contact information (not a very friendly type - but this is a free country ). Secondly, a 9.78 may sound great but this in no way the most difficult set to finish in high grade. Matter of fact the several thousand coin find a few years ago (read back in this thread for the exact coin descriptions) made it very easy for anyone with the cash to simply buy the PSA 10s necessary to finish this set. There are 198 10's available. Yes the Daley is a rare coin, but there are now 6 PSA 10s and 10s exist for all of the coins and the variations which are not very rare (aaron, drysdale, malzone).
I was overjoyed this spring when the "Dicioccio collection" came up with the last PSA 10 needed for a perfect 10 set to displace "West Coast" - Bravo Dioccio !
That said, the 55 set is the real toughie. There are 24 different players, with nine additional variations (with 2 more on the way) for 33 coins. Seven of the coins have no reported 10's , one the mantle correct [L-R] has no 10s or 9's and the Trucks white sox (two words) has only one 9. This is the true tough set in armour coins, not the 1960 set.
Basically my attitude is screw the incompetent judges whoever they were. I know, and any true armour collector knows, that the best Armour set ever compliled and graded is "A Train" , 100% complete with a meager 8.99 and 23/33 PSA 10s.
The only credible argument that could be made with this would be in favor of "42nd St" which is an all black (rare color) 1955 set which is one Kuenn and one mantle away from being complete, although with very few 9's or 10's cause they don't exist. I challenge anyone with any amount of money to come up with a complete 1955 set in black or any other rare color !
Having said that, if Doug Stultz ever decides to grade his 1955's I'm sure my rule in 1955 Armours will come to an end. Doug is the man when it comes to 1955 Armours ! His article in SCD 22 years ago got me restarted collecting Armours.
Anyway, now that I've vented on PSA and whined about not being picked for an award, on to some new Armour info......
Another Guilliam variation was added to the 1955 set by Std Catalog of BB Cards last year after I sent them the necessary evidence. I have several of these now being graded so the PSA set should reflect this shortly. The variation is a tight vs spread variation of the Brooklyn Dodgers on the front of the coin similar to the '55 Kuenn and the '60 Drysdale.
A similar variation of Haddix has been found and is going thjrough the SCD verification process as we speak.
As of this month there are now 787 1955s graded with 67 PSA 10s; 807 1959s graded with 77 PSA 10s and 1608 1960's graded with 198 PSA 10s. For perspective, if I recall correctly, PSA started grading these in 2004 timeframe so 3200 of them have been graded in the last 5 years.
1959 Oddity - 1959 has no PSA 10 Blasingame, a very common player of that year widely available for a few dollars ungraded ??
As I mentioned earlier, I am convinced ( and I think fellow collector Larry Serota is also) that the rarest Armour coin is Mantle correct spelling [L-R] not Daley and not any other coin. The rarest of the rare are therefore this coin in any rare '55 color. Some of these color variations have never been seen by anyone and may not even exist. Does this coin exist in gold or silver ??
1955 grading is now in SMR (web version). Serota, Stultz and I developed the pricing this spring. These have come from a decade of watching EBay prices. They got screwed up recently, but are now fixed - take a look on line and see if you agree ?
Got the last 1959 pale yellow I needed for my "45th street park" set. All 20 coins in pale yellow has taken me about a decade to acquire. It will be the first complete rare color Armour set put together in PSA.
Also sent off a Thomas pale pink for grading. This is the last pale pink I needed for my "Elliot Tricca" pale blue /pale pink set. I started off thinking the pale pinks would be the hardest to find, but I was incorrect, I'm still missing 4 pale blues.
The dark pink are rarer than either pale blue or pale pink. Still missing 5 of those.
Some colors are just appear to be "liked" more than others. For instance 1955 black is highly sought after (and bid up on EBay) although it is NOT the rarest 1955 color. In a similar way, pink has always been a hot item in 1959 even though other colors like cream are much more difficult to find.
more later....
Hope everyone has a great Labor Day weekend............................ArmourPhil
Website: http://www.qualitycards.com
havent been on this board for awhile
yes indeed the 55 mantle correct l-r is the rarest coin of any year in my opinion
as evidence to this, after 11 years now of collecting the mantles, and going to every national and looking at every auction catalog, there is still one so called common color correct l-r that i have never seen and 2 other so called common colors ive only seen one of
also 2 common colors of the slightly less rare l or r that ive only seen one of
as for rare color mantles ive seen 3 black mantels 1 correct l or r and 1 correct l-r
even doug stulz with well over 1000 55s does not have correct mantles
as for other rare color mantel or mantles i have 3 total lime mantel lime mantle correct l-r and dark green mantel and these are the only other rare color 55 mantles i have ever seen
as for the rare shades(colors) pale chalky yellow, pink orange,dark red translucent they have only been seen in mantel version and are also quite scarce
sflayank
In the last 6 months there have been several 1955 Armour variation finds which I will detail here.
You have seen by now that that the Std Cataolg has added the Guilliam tight variation and therefore I was able to get it added to the 1955 set registry. No question here thatthe tight variation is the rare one
There is also a tight variation for Haddix (see attached pic). I'll give myself credit for finding this one.
Then a few months ago Laura Salzy came up with two more.
The Snider coin comes with batting average "341" (correct version) or ".341" (error version) . At this point not sure if either are rare. I appear to have more of the .341 variation.
She also found a finnigan variation. If you look closely at the back of the coin you can find home town as both "Quincy" and "Ouincy" break out you mag glass for this one, but sure enough it is real. Again hard to tell if one is significantly rarer than the other at this point.
My 1955 all black registry set "42nd street" is missing guilliam (L-R narrow gap); Kuenn (condensed) & Mantle (L or R) ....that is until these other variations are added to the set. ....If any of you know where I can find any of these coins in black let me know ....thats it for now ....ArmourPhil
still looking for any mantle correct version 1955s
as well as all players in gold silver tan dark green 1955s
sflayank@aol.com
can someone tell me what color the mantel coin is in the scan?
thanks
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Since the pics up here don't last forever, I have started a Armour Coin blog page. It can be found here:
http://armourcoins.blogspot.com/
Latest blog is on the silver 1955 Gilliam that was up for auction on EBay a few weeks ago. I contacted the seller because it looked "not quite right" and upon examination found it had been spray painted.
The only other one I have ever seen for sale or auction is a silver Berra.
Tell you the truth, I'm beginning to wonder whether silver is a real color or has always been fake and come out of a spray can !
You might also want to check out my blog on the 1960 Daley "test" colors !
I assumed someone bought it off line. Did you contact the seller stating it might be fake?
I also so a gold '55 as well that's no longer listed
Website: http://www.qualitycards.com
Not that its slabbed that is no longer an option.
It is a little strange that in 50 years of collecting the Berra is the only one that has ever showed up. I have seen it more than once.
The Gilliam absolutely was a fake.
Note added Sun 6 PM : I just sent off a message to Doug Stultz who is the only man that knows more about these than I do. I'll post what he comes back with.
Note added Sun 9:45 PM Doug Stultz the father of armour coins responded that he has two silvers Berra and Mueller and they are real. Good enough for me . I retract my doubts.
Since it has gotten > 10,000 hits so far ,this has become THE SITE for Armour Coin info. .....
For instance the 1955 Azure blue color became real when we found a total of 11 diff coins in this color. Same for peach, tan, dark red transparent etc. There are lots of others where we have seen one of a kinds or just a few. The olive green (yellow/green) that's on my web page has showed up for Trucks and Kuenn and another collector reports a third player that I forget at this moment. If a few more show up that will join the very rare color group.
In terms of mixing colors in the early stages of mixing you get what we are calling swirls like you see when you mix ice cream flavors. If you keep stirring it up, of coarse you will get a new color. We think the coins were only made in a few sites on a few molds (we know there were diff molds from "bust tilts (see web page) so if you see the same rare color with bust tilts then you can confirm that the color was on purpose since it was made exactly the same in multiple locations.....make sense ?
In terms of PSA labeling the colors the problem is that their graders will not be able to tell the colors apart unless someone shows them examples. If hey start mislabeling them this will create a big mess for us collectors.
As an example for you, SFLAYank and I can confirm 21 distinct diff colors for 1960 Mantle's.
What they really need to do is make color labeling optional. The charge an extra fee for this service and they send them to me once every 2 weeks to properly define the colors.
You should suggest this to Cosetta !
check it out and leave a comment here or there.
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
Does anyone know if I can submit 1950s and 1960s Armour Coins with a bulk sub? Or is there a separate form/fee for these or can they be subbed for the $8/card like the other bulk cards? Thanks for your help.