<< <i>PCGS guarantees the authenticity of any coin it slabs. Should the coin ever fail in being authentic, such as the 1902-O micro O silver dollars, they will pay you for the fair market value of the coin as if it were genuine. Very simple.
Tom >>
I'd sure like to hear that (in writing) from PCGS. >>
Just how does one "hear" writing? - Preussen
"Illegitimis non carborundum" -General Joseph Stilwell. See my auctions
<< <i>PCGS guarantees the authenticity of any coin it slabs. Should the coin ever fail in being authentic, such as the 1902-O micro O silver dollars, they will pay you for the fair market value of the coin as if it were genuine. Very simple.
Tom >>
I'd sure like to hear that (in writing) from PCGS. >>
This is a relavent question if PCGS ever does begin to attribute early type by die marriage. Ron Guth floated an inquiry to determine opinion as to whether to attribute dollars to Bolender or Bowers-Borckardt #s on another list. The consensus was to use Bolender #s, but whichever numbering system they decide to use, that it would be utterly crucial to correctly attribute coins. This is no small concern, given that PCGS can't tell a curl base 2 from a square base 2 with any consistency.
Further, in the late 80s, PCGS slabbed a very convincing counterfeit half dollar for (nationally renowned dealer), who then shopped it as a new, unique die marriage. He played it very coy, not letting experts see the coin, but tried for a couple days to nail a pigeon for $40k. He was unsuccessful, and eventually it found its way back to PCGS, who bought it for type price. The unanswered question has always been, what if he had been successful in nailing someone for $40k? What would PCGS have done to make it right? This was clearly the dealer's intention. If PCGS offers attribution services in the future, this could become an issue.
<< <i>Further, in the late 80s, PCGS slabbed a very convincing counterfeit half dollar for (nationally renowned dealer), who then shopped it as a new, unique die marriage. He played it very coy, not letting experts see the coin, but tried for a couple days to nail a pigeon for $40k. He was unsuccessful, and eventually it found its way back to PCGS, who bought it for type price. The unanswered question has always been, what if he had been successful in nailing someone for $40k? What would PCGS have done to make it right? This was clearly the dealer's intention. If PCGS offers attribution services in the future, this could become an issue. >>
That would fall under an Attribution Guarantee, not the grading or the fictional Authenticity Guarantee. If they attribute a coin wrong and it is still genuine, it IS still genuine! So they would have to write a new guarantee to cover problems with attributions. . . or just call them mechanical errors.
<< <i>Here's an idea. Call Customer Service and ask someone to explain it to you. >>
Sounds good, have them READ to you the section that explains PCGS's responsibilities if a coin is found to not be AUTHENTIC, not the section about if it is misgraded. Then listen to the silence. Or you might hear the title "PCGS's Guarantee of Authenticty" and then silence.
<< <i>The cash-back policy ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PCGS coin >>
I always thought the policy as is covers it's authenticity. If it's not authentic, it was improperly graded. It should have been a no grade. Maybe I'm just looking at it a bit too simple. I don't know. Just my thoughts.
Who is the ultimate arbitrator of what is authentic, PCGS, the Secret Service, the US Mint, ...?
They certainly side-step the issue in their policy (and NGC's) of presently only grading 1856 Flying Eagle cents as proofs. PCGS has changed it's policy on Flying Eagle cents. It used to distinguish between proofs and business strikes. So you have older PCGS slabs that have both designations (and often wrong!). Now both proof and business strike coins gets labeled as proof. A business strike in a proof holder is not "authentic" and a proof with a business strike designation is not "authentic" in my opinion.
Older graded business strikes (designated MS on the holders) are worth more even if they are not authentic MS coins because PCGS refuses to delete MS 1856 Flyers from its set registry or modify the registry. Now they won't certify (authenticate) MS 56 flyers. So, you have proof 1856 Flyers in MS holders that are worth more than they should be and you have MS coins with proof designations that are usually not worth as much, and some real MS 56 Flyers in MS plastic that are worth a hell of a lot.
When the company that authenticates is the ultimate arbitrator then something is amiss. Only independent, respected arbitration will guarantee authenticity - not the whims of a grading company.
Why doesn't he "make it right" by giving a definitive statement rather that just refer to a guaranty of authenticity without providing any details as to the recourse in the event of a bogus coin is encapsulated!!!
It wouldn't take 5 minutes to say that the value of an authentic coin in the assigned grade will be paid upon return of the bogus coin intact in the slab. Heck, I just did it in 30 seconds!
<< <i>Why doesn't he "make it right" by giving a definitive statement rather that just refer to a guaranty of authenticity without providing any details as to the recourse in the event of a bogus coin is encapsulated!!!
It wouldn't take 5 minutes to say that the value of an authentic coin in the assigned grade will be paid upon return of the bogus coin intact in the slab. Heck, I just did it in 30 seconds! >>
I doubt there is a certified coin out there that PCGS wouldn't guarantee and purchase back if it turned out to be counterfeit. The loss of credibility if they didn't would cost them more financially than the coins fair market value could. I would trust that PCGS has purchased coverage through a reinsurer for this possibility?
<< <i>I doubt there is a certified coin out there that PCGS wouldn't guarantee and purchase back if it turned out to be counterfeit. The loss of credibility if they didn't would cost them more financially than the coins fair market value could. >>
I agree. So why after 20 years do they still refuse to make any statement in writing of a guarantee of authenticity? We aren't asking for anything as complex as their grading guarantee. I would be satisfied with the simple statement "If any coin certified by PCGS is subsequently determined to not be authentic, PCGS will make it right with the owner of the coin." Twenty four words.
That would satisfy me, how about it Majorbigtime? Would that satify you?
<< <i>I always thought the policy as is covers it's authenticity. If it's not authentic, it was improperly graded. It should have been a no grade. Maybe I'm just looking at it a bit too simple. I don't know. Just my thoughts. >>
I posted this a while back. The policy seems to cover it. Am I wrong?
<< <i>I always thought the policy as is covers it's authenticity. If it's not authentic, it was improperly graded. It should have been a no grade. Maybe I'm just looking at it a bit too simple. I don't know. Just my thoughts. >>
I posted this a while back. The policy seems to cover it. Am I wrong? >>
Grading asseses surface preservation, not authenticity. One can accurately grade counterfeits all day long.
<< <i>Grading asseses surface preservation, not authenticity. >>
I feel it's all part of grading. If it's not authentic, it's a no grade. If it ever came to court, any jury would award the plaintiff.
That said, PCGS would never allow an issue to go that far. They would stand up and eat the coin. I would guess they have done this a time or two out of public view.
If anyone knows of PCGS handling a situation like this any differently I would love to know of it.
<< <i>I doubt there is a certified coin out there that PCGS wouldn't guarantee and purchase back if it turned out to be counterfeit. The loss of credibility if they didn't would cost them more financially than the coins fair market value could. >>
I agree. So why after 20 years do they still refuse to make any statement in writing of a guarantee of authenticity? We aren't asking for anything as complex as their grading guarantee. I would be satisfied with the simple statement "If any coin certified by PCGS is subsequently determined to not be authentic, PCGS will make it right with the owner of the coin." Twenty four words.
That would satisfy me, how about it Majorbigtime? Would that satify you? >>
That would be a start.
I don't think "make it right" is specific enough (see Humpty Dumpty above), how about "....PCGS will pay the owner the fair market value of a genuine coin of the same type, date, mint mark, variety and condition."
If PCGS adopts such verbiage as part of an "official" guaranty, I will be a happy camper!!
This thread might make it to 100 concidering that MBT has already posted twenty times to it. In the history of PCGS, has anyone ever submitted a coin that was not authentic in a PCGS holder? If so, was PCGS GUARANTY upheld, was the person submitting made whole? If not, you have a grip, otherwise drop it and move on for christ sake. Grow up.
<< <i>In the history of PCGS, has anyone ever submitted a coin that was not authentic in a PCGS holder? >>
Yes
<< <i>If so, was PCGS GUARANTY upheld, >>
No, because there is no guarantee to uphold.
<< <i>was the person submitting made whole? >>
So far yes they have always made good, but they are under no obligation to do so now or in the future. At anytime they want they can chose not to "make them whole". The only reason they do it now is to protect their reputation, not because of a guarantee.
PCGS slabbed over 200 fake morgan dollars (96-O, 00-O, 02-O all with the micro O) and they bought all back that were returned to them. Many collectors are keeping them as a collectable and not returning them. From a business point of view, PCGS would be crazy not to buy back their misstakes since their good reputation is what keeps them the number one grading service.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>In the history of PCGS, has anyone ever submitted a coin that was not authentic in a PCGS holder? >>
Yes
<< <i>If so, was PCGS GUARANTY upheld, >>
No, because there is no guarantee to uphold.
<< <i>was the person submitting made whole? >>
So far yes they have always made good, but they are under no obligation to do so now or in the future. At anytime they want they can chose not to "make them whole". The only reason they do it now is to protect their reputation, not because of a guarantee. >>
EXACTLY--THAT'S MY POINT!!
PCGS claims to have a "PCGS Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity"...but read on......
Customer Bill of Rights The Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity is fundamental to PCGS's concept of third-party grading. The cash-back policy ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PCGS coin as long as it remains in its tamper-evident holder. If a coin is believed to be improperly graded, and a discrepancy is found when resubmitted through PCGS's Downgrade Resubmission service, the guarantee entitles the coin's owner to options designed for his protection
That doesn't say diddly squat about recourse if an altered or counterfeit coin ends up in a PCGS slab, and actually is quite misleading IMO.
Since they claim to "guarantee" "authenticity", they should answer the question "Where's Waldo?" or "Where's the beef"!!!!!
A strong point can be made that positions should not just be implied. Take all this lovely AT copper that some of our respected board members are dirtying their hands with, or maybe other coin series that we don't know about yet. If the poo-poo ever hit the fan and it was "discovered" that a major TPG company let some questionable coins into their plastic because of who the submitter(s) was, and this company was suddenly facing an incredible amount of buy-backs--- maybe enough to put this major TPG company under--- a written guarantee or written position would be nice for all the unfortunate holders of these slabs as opposed to a vague understanding that things will be made right. If any company claims a position on something like this- then they should back that claim with something in writing. Very clear/understandable writing.
<< <i>A strong point can be made that positions should not just be implied. Take all this lovely AT copper that some of our respected board members are dirtying their hands with, or maybe other coin series that we don't know about yet. If the poo-poo ever hit the fan and it was "discovered" that a major TPG company let some questionable coins into their plastic because of who the submitter(s) was, and this company was suddenly facing an incredible amount of buy-backs--- maybe enough to put this major TPG company under--- a written guarantee or written position would be nice for all the unfortunate holders of these slabs as opposed to a vague understanding that things will be made right. If any company claims a position on something like this- then they should back that claim with something in writing. Very clear/understandable writing. >>
RIGHT ON!!
Some of you folks are finally geting to the core issue that I've been harping (and carping) on for years!
Comments
<< <i>I'll "tt" this post every month or so--maybe someday we will get an answer. >>
But it's been over 10 months and not a word.
<< <i>
<< <i>PCGS guarantees the authenticity of any coin it slabs. Should the coin ever fail in being authentic, such as the 1902-O micro O silver dollars, they will pay you for the fair market value of the coin as if it were genuine. Very simple.
Tom >>
I'd sure like to hear that (in writing) from PCGS. >>
Just how does one "hear" writing?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>PCGS guarantees the authenticity of any coin it slabs. Should the coin ever fail in being authentic, such as the 1902-O micro O silver dollars, they will pay you for the fair market value of the coin as if it were genuine. Very simple.
Tom >>
I'd sure like to hear that (in writing) from PCGS. >>
Just how does one "hear" writing?
Books on tape--this is a decade old classic.
<< <i>What exactly is PCGS's AUTHENTICITY guaranty? >>
It's "unwritten"
Further, in the late 80s, PCGS slabbed a very convincing counterfeit half dollar for (nationally renowned dealer), who then shopped it as a new, unique die marriage. He played it very coy, not letting experts see the coin, but tried for a couple days to nail a pigeon for $40k. He was unsuccessful, and eventually it found its way back to PCGS, who bought it for type price. The unanswered question has always been, what if he had been successful in nailing someone for $40k? What would PCGS have done to make it right? This was clearly the dealer's intention. If PCGS offers attribution services in the future, this could become an issue.
<< <i>
<< <i>What exactly is PCGS's AUTHENTICITY guaranty? >>
It's "unwritten"
..and, IMO, illusory.......
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>Further, in the late 80s, PCGS slabbed a very convincing counterfeit half dollar for (nationally renowned dealer), who then shopped it as a new, unique die marriage. He played it very coy, not letting experts see the coin, but tried for a couple days to nail a pigeon for $40k. He was unsuccessful, and eventually it found its way back to PCGS, who bought it for type price. The unanswered question has always been, what if he had been successful in nailing someone for $40k? What would PCGS have done to make it right? This was clearly the dealer's intention. If PCGS offers attribution services in the future, this could become an issue. >>
That would fall under an Attribution Guarantee, not the grading or the fictional Authenticity Guarantee. If they attribute a coin wrong and it is still genuine, it IS still genuine! So they would have to write a new guarantee to cover problems with attributions. . . or just call them mechanical errors.
<< <i>Here's an idea. Call Customer Service and ask someone to explain it to you. >>
Sounds good, have them READ to you the section that explains PCGS's responsibilities if a coin is found to not be AUTHENTIC, not the section about if it is misgraded. Then listen to the silence. Or you might hear the title "PCGS's Guarantee of Authenticty" and then silence.
<< <i>The cash-back policy ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PCGS coin >>
I always thought the policy as is covers it's authenticity.
If it's not authentic, it was improperly graded.
It should have been a no grade.
Maybe I'm just looking at it a bit too simple. I don't know. Just my thoughts.
They certainly side-step the issue in their policy (and NGC's) of presently only grading 1856 Flying Eagle cents as proofs. PCGS has changed it's policy on Flying Eagle cents. It used to distinguish between proofs and business strikes. So you have older PCGS slabs that have both designations (and often wrong!). Now both proof and business strike coins gets labeled as proof. A business strike in a proof holder is not "authentic" and a proof with a business strike designation is not "authentic" in my opinion.
Older graded business strikes (designated MS on the holders) are worth more even if they are not authentic MS coins because PCGS refuses to delete MS 1856 Flyers from its set registry or modify the registry. Now they won't certify (authenticate) MS 56 flyers. So, you have proof 1856 Flyers in MS holders that are worth more than they should be and you have MS coins with proof designations that are usually not worth as much, and some real MS 56 Flyers in MS plastic that are worth a hell of a lot.
When the company that authenticates is the ultimate arbitrator then something is amiss. Only independent, respected arbitration will guarantee authenticity - not the whims of a grading company.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>I imagine the official (long form) guarantee is several pages long. What doesn't it cover?
Leo >>
It doesn't exsist--that's THE PROBLEM!!!
It wouldn't take 5 minutes to say that the value of an authentic coin in the assigned grade will be paid upon return of the bogus coin intact in the slab. Heck, I just did it in 30 seconds!
<< <i>Why doesn't he "make it right" by giving a definitive statement rather that just refer to a guaranty of authenticity without providing any details as to the recourse in the event of a bogus coin is encapsulated!!!
It wouldn't take 5 minutes to say that the value of an authentic coin in the assigned grade will be paid upon return of the bogus coin intact in the slab. Heck, I just did it in 30 seconds! >>
The wind blew.................
if not, why do you harp on this? why so fascinated with this hypothetical?
Most of us are quite confident that they (pcgs) would make any legitimate claimant "whole"
I ask again, why the obsession?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Come on majorbigtime, whats the real story behind this?
<< <i>I doubt there is a certified coin out there that PCGS wouldn't guarantee and purchase back if it turned out to be counterfeit. The loss of credibility if they didn't would cost them more financially than the coins fair market value could. >>
I agree. So why after 20 years do they still refuse to make any statement in writing of a guarantee of authenticity? We aren't asking for anything as complex as their grading guarantee. I would be satisfied with the simple statement "If any coin certified by PCGS is subsequently determined to not be authentic, PCGS will make it right with the owner of the coin." Twenty four words.
That would satisfy me, how about it Majorbigtime? Would that satify you?
<< <i>I always thought the policy as is covers it's authenticity.
If it's not authentic, it was improperly graded.
It should have been a no grade.
Maybe I'm just looking at it a bit too simple. I don't know. Just my thoughts. >>
I posted this a while back. The policy seems to cover it. Am I wrong?
<< <i>
<< <i>I always thought the policy as is covers it's authenticity.
If it's not authentic, it was improperly graded.
It should have been a no grade.
Maybe I'm just looking at it a bit too simple. I don't know. Just my thoughts. >>
I posted this a while back. The policy seems to cover it. Am I wrong? >>
Grading asseses surface preservation, not authenticity. One can accurately grade counterfeits all day long.
<< <i>Grading asseses surface preservation, not authenticity. >>
I feel it's all part of grading. If it's not authentic, it's a no grade.
If it ever came to court, any jury would award the plaintiff.
That said, PCGS would never allow an issue to go that far.
They would stand up and eat the coin.
I would guess they have done this a time or two out of public view.
If anyone knows of PCGS handling a situation like this any differently I would love to know of it.
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
The PCGS Guarantee of Authenticity
Yes.
There you have it folks!
<< <i>
<< <i>I doubt there is a certified coin out there that PCGS wouldn't guarantee and purchase back if it turned out to be counterfeit. The loss of credibility if they didn't would cost them more financially than the coins fair market value could. >>
I agree. So why after 20 years do they still refuse to make any statement in writing of a guarantee of authenticity? We aren't asking for anything as complex as their grading guarantee. I would be satisfied with the simple statement "If any coin certified by PCGS is subsequently determined to not be authentic, PCGS will make it right with the owner of the coin." Twenty four words.
That would satisfy me, how about it Majorbigtime? Would that satify you? >>
That would be a start.
I don't think "make it right" is specific enough (see Humpty Dumpty above), how about "....PCGS will pay the owner the fair market value of a genuine coin of the same type, date, mint mark, variety and condition."
If PCGS adopts such verbiage as part of an "official" guaranty, I will be a happy camper!!
I'll beleive it when I see it!!
Still waiting..........
<< <i>If PCGS adopts such verbiage as part of an "official" guaranty, I will be a happy camper!! >>
No, you'll find some other cause celebre to whine about.
<< <i>I'll beleive it when I see it!!
Still waiting.......... >>
Ditto 2 weeks later!!
<< <i>Where IS Waldo ? >>
a very good question!!
<< <i>Our guarantee of grade and authenticity only applies to coins in our holders...not body bags.
Thanks,
David >>
I am a collector
And things, well things
They tend to accumulate
<< <i>It seems pretty clear to me in this thread.
<< <i>Our guarantee of grade and authenticity only applies to coins in our holders...not body bags.
Thanks,
David >>
>>
Yeah, but read the so-called guarantee and you will not find diddly squat about recourse for a "bad" coin.
<< <i>In the history of PCGS, has anyone ever submitted a coin that was not authentic in a PCGS holder? >>
Yes
<< <i>If so, was PCGS GUARANTY upheld, >>
No, because there is no guarantee to uphold.
<< <i>was the person submitting made whole? >>
So far yes they have always made good, but they are under no obligation to do so now or in the future. At anytime they want they can chose not to "make them whole". The only reason they do it now is to protect their reputation, not because of a guarantee.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>
<< <i>In the history of PCGS, has anyone ever submitted a coin that was not authentic in a PCGS holder? >>
Yes
<< <i>If so, was PCGS GUARANTY upheld, >>
No, because there is no guarantee to uphold.
<< <i>was the person submitting made whole? >>
So far yes they have always made good, but they are under no obligation to do so now or in the future. At anytime they want they can chose not to "make them whole". The only reason they do it now is to protect their reputation, not because of a guarantee. >>
EXACTLY--THAT'S MY POINT!!
PCGS claims to have a "PCGS Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity"...but read on......
Customer Bill of Rights
The Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity is fundamental to PCGS's concept of third-party grading. The cash-back policy ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PCGS coin as long as it remains in its tamper-evident holder. If a coin is believed to be improperly graded, and a discrepancy is found when resubmitted through PCGS's Downgrade Resubmission service, the guarantee entitles the coin's owner to options designed for his protection
That doesn't say diddly squat about recourse if an altered or counterfeit coin ends up in a PCGS slab, and actually is quite misleading IMO.
Since they claim to "guarantee" "authenticity", they should answer the question "Where's Waldo?" or "Where's the beef"!!!!!
Take all this lovely AT copper that some of our respected board members are dirtying their hands with, or maybe other coin series that we don't know about yet.
If the poo-poo ever hit the fan and it was "discovered" that a major TPG company let some questionable coins into their plastic because of who the submitter(s) was, and this company was suddenly facing an incredible amount of buy-backs--- maybe enough to put this major TPG company under--- a written guarantee or written position would be nice for all the unfortunate holders of these slabs as opposed to a vague understanding that things will be made right.
If any company claims a position on something like this- then they should back that claim with something in writing. Very clear/understandable writing.
<< <i>This continuation of this thread is giving me gas.
So?
Maybe you should just fart like the little guy! Did you know that some folks actually AT coins with fartgas?
<< <i>This continuation of this thread is giving me gas.
<< <i>A strong point can be made that positions should not just be implied.
Take all this lovely AT copper that some of our respected board members are dirtying their hands with, or maybe other coin series that we don't know about yet.
If the poo-poo ever hit the fan and it was "discovered" that a major TPG company let some questionable coins into their plastic because of who the submitter(s) was, and this company was suddenly facing an incredible amount of buy-backs--- maybe enough to put this major TPG company under--- a written guarantee or written position would be nice for all the unfortunate holders of these slabs as opposed to a vague understanding that things will be made right.
If any company claims a position on something like this- then they should back that claim with something in writing. Very clear/understandable writing. >>
RIGHT ON!!
Some of you folks are finally geting to the core issue that I've been harping (and carping) on for years!
Where's PCGS on this???