Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>MBT---Have you tried the resusitated Q & A forum? >>
Might be worth a try to supplement posting here, thanks for the suggestion.
Too many folks here support my views (usually by PM) to discontinue posting on this thread. It also accords everyone an opportunity to take shot at me.
Ever wonder why PCGS won't participate in the discussion?
<< <i>certainly you have a claim of some sort, and aren't just whining on and on about the principle of this issue? >>
I've been making the complaint for years and not just about PCGS but NGC and ANACS as well, and I support MBT on this quest, and I certainly don't have any claim against any of them because I don't buy slabbed coins. For me yes it IS the principle.
<< <i>certainly you have a claim of some sort, and aren't just whining on and on about the principle of this issue? >>
I've been making the complaint for years and not just about PCGS but NGC and ANACS as well, and I support MBT on this quest, and I certainly don't have any claim against any of them because I don't buy slabbed coins. For me yes it IS the principle. >>
<< <i>certainly you have a claim of some sort, and aren't just whining on and on about the principle of this issue? >>
I've been making the complaint for years and not just about PCGS but NGC and ANACS as well, and I support MBT on this quest, and I certainly don't have any claim against any of them because I don't buy slabbed coins. For me yes it IS the principle. >>
For me yes it IS the principle.
Mee too! >>
Well COndor101 put his money where is mouth is:
NOW, WE FIND AN OUTSTANDING EDITORIAL IN THIS WEEK'S COIN WORLD ENTITLED: Majors mum on authenticity guarantees
By Conder101. A few excerpts:
QUOTE
.............. A great many of the third- and fourth-tier grading services do have written warranties of authenticity on their Web sites. Some of them are a bit vague about what specifically your compensation will be if an item is found to be fraudulent, but they do seem to imply that you will at least get your slabbing fees back. ............. On the other hand, the major services on their Web sites all make sure to specifically inform the collector that the grading on their slabs is guaranteed and what the collector’s options are and how he will be compensated if the grading of the coin is wrong. However, none of the major services have any specific written guarantee of authenticity! There is nothing about how a collector will be compensated if his coin turns out to be a fake. After several years on the Professional Coin Grading Service coin forums, a few "troublemakers" [who, MBT?] have agitated on this topic enough that, in at least one ad in Coin World, PCGS did include the line, "All coins in PCGS holders are guaranteed to be authentic." Not on their Web site, just in an advertisement. That is the sum total response of several years of questioning on the forum, and in my case 20 years of pointing out to anyone who would listen that their "guarantee" contained no discussion about authenticity. The other major services Web sites are no better. No written guarantee of authenticity, no discussion of how a collector would be compensated.
.............
Now I admit, to date, the major grading services have been very forthright and have always stood behind their product and compensated the collector. But past behavior does not mandate future behavior. Having paid off others in the past does not obligate them to pay off for newly discovered fakes in the future. For that you need a written promise or guarantee, something that someone can point to and say, "You have made this obligation!" So I have to wonder about the major grading firms. Why are they afraid of putting their necks on the line with a written, specific, guarantee of authenticity......
UNQUOTE
Maybe those who have slammed me in this quest will stop and think about this important subject, assuming they are cabable of intelligent thinking. Conder101 certainly has his thinking cap on!!
So I have to wonder about the major grading firms. Why are they afraid of putting their necks on the line with a written, specific, guarantee of authenticity......
Maybe they are not expert enough in altered and conterfeit coins AND they do not alot enough time to check out every submitted coin.
Advanced collector of BREWERIANA. Early beer advertising (beer cans, tap knobs, foam scrapers, trays, tin signs, lithos, paper, etc)....My first love...U.S. COINS!
<< <i>So I have to wonder about the major grading firms. Why are they afraid of putting their necks on the line with a written, specific, guarantee of authenticity......
A very good question! >>
Most of the other people on here have a different agenda.
They need to worry about hypotheticals, a coin posse that is in theory only, OT's, eBay auctions, "The mint screwed me" threads, AT, NT, etc.
Maybe they are not expert enough in altered and conterfeit coins AND they do not alot enough time to check out every submitted coin.
On the first part, PCGS publishes a book on the subject, that many of us have purchased. I would hope they're experts enough on the subject. On the second part, they have enough time to grade & guarantee that grade on every submitted coin. How much more time is involved in making sure it's authentic?
<< <i>Maybe they are not expert enough in altered and conterfeit coins AND they do not alot enough time to check out every submitted coin.
On the first part, PCGS publishes a book on the subject, that many of us have purchased. I would hope they're experts enough on the subject. On the second part, they have enough time to grade & guarantee that grade on every submitted coin. How much more time is involved in making sure it's authentic? >>
How much time is allotted to the grading process? Maybe 10 seconds per coin? If every grader knew all the diagnostics of all forgeries and conterfeits for every series in his head, then maybe it would not add much additional time to the grading process. I believe the TPG's are more interested with assigning grades quickly rather then the tedious task of determining authenticity for every coin.
Advanced collector of BREWERIANA. Early beer advertising (beer cans, tap knobs, foam scrapers, trays, tin signs, lithos, paper, etc)....My first love...U.S. COINS!
<< <i>" I believe the TPG's are more interested with assigning grades quickly rather then the tedious task of determining authenticity for every coin."
You may be right! >>
And he may be wrong. The authenticity of the vast majority of coins can be determined almost instantaneously by experts.
<< <i>MBT, why don't you write up what you think it should be instead of complaining about what it is. How much time would it take you?-----------BigE >>
Been there, done that (read the entire thread).
The better question is why doesn't PCGS simply state what recourse exists if a "bad" coin is slabbed by PCGS!!
<< <i>Instead of a bunch of legalistic language, I prefer a company that has a blanket policy of "We'll make it right". >>
Agreed. In point of fact, "we make it right" are the words David Hall has repeatedly used when discussing PCGS's willingness to stand behind their product. He's not only said it here on the forums, but also in conversations with many collectors, myself included.
Russ, NCNE >>
"We'll make it right"
Talk about "wiggle room". Why doesn't HRH put his money where his mouth is??
PCGS owes it's customers a definitive statement IMO!!
<< The only option is pay the owner the value of a genuine coin of the same grade. PCGS publishes a price guide, so that should be the measurement IMO! >>
One would think so but that is not the case. A dealer friend of mine had the 1970 NO S Jeff in 67DCAM. It had turned bad in the holder. PCGSs offer what they stated was fair market value was $1,100. Even though the price guide stated $1,400 and then went up to $1,450. The dealer paid $1,400 for the coin and PCGSs answer to that was, we don't care if the dealer paid too much, we pay what we think is FMV. >>
".....we pay what we think is FMV"
When it comes to authenticity, how do you like "we'll make it right"???
The # of counterfeit coins that have ever been in PCGS are probably far fewer than 100.
Should they be faced with a counterfeit coin, I do not think that there would be anyone that would be dis-satisfied with the settlement that PCGS offered. I think that the same would hold true for NGC, ANACS & ICG.
If there was, the owner would probably be an unreasonable person. All of the above named services would absolutely bend over backwards to get the counterfeit out of their holder.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
I have differences with all of the services on grading. I am sure that we all do.
I do not have any differences on authenticity.
These are two entirely different areas.
Authenticity is objective.
Grading is subjective.
I am a supporter of the professional services when it comes to authenticity.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
<< <i>I have differences with all of the services on grading. I am sure that we all do.
I do not have any differences on authenticity.
These are two entirely different areas.
Authenticity is objective.
Grading is subjective.
I am a supporter of the professional services when it comes to authenticity. >>
Great--why don't you use you influence and outstanding reputation to get the TPGs to issue definitive guaranties of authenticity with specific recourse?
You would be a great advocate for this very important issue.
If PCGS did not back up their authenticity guarantee, they would soon be out of business. If PCGS goes out of business, they will not be able to back up their authenticity guarantee.
I emailed the thread to David Hall and Ron Guth and suggested that they beef up their written guarantee.
David just emailed me back
Thanks Julian…we’ll do it…some people just can’t be pleased!!!!!!
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
MBT, let's say you've been hired as a consumer advocate and legal consultant to PCGS, to re-write their authenticity guarantee. Specifically, what would it say?
If PCGS did not back up their authenticity guarantee, they would soon be out of business. >>
Back it up how?
"We'll make it right" doesn't seem to be very definitive, does it? >>
Frankly, that is a heck of a lot better than "we'll pay you Greysheet bid" or "we'll pay you what you paid for the coin (if you can document it)" or "we'll replace it with another one (of our choosing)". In order for it to be made right, in the service business, the customer must be satisfied. I'll take "We'll make it right".
Oh, and I am still waiting for an example of a counterfeit coin in a PCGS holder in which the person stuck with the counterfeit was not satisfied with the result.
<< <i>The # of counterfeit coins that have ever been in PCGS are probably far fewer than 100. >>
PCGS slabbed approx 200 micro O Morgans (1896, 1900, & 1902) which were later determined to be counterfeit. Those that were returned were compensated for and as far as I know, everyone has been fairly compensated. Many were never sent back to PCGS since now they are collectable as contemporary counterfeits.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
If you are reading this, please inform Mr. Hall that some of us are satisfied the way it currently is.
>>
I assume you are either very naive or have not read the existing policy.
Read the guaranty (they call it a guarantee) for authenticity protection and you will ask yourself "Where's Waldo?"
QUOTE
PCGS Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity Customer Bill of Rights
The Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity is fundamental to PCGS's concept of third-party grading. The cash-back policy ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PCGS coin as long as it remains in its tamper-evident holder. If a coin is believed to be improperly graded, and a discrepancy is found when resubmitted through PCGS's Downgrade Resubmission service, the guarantee entitles the coin's owner to options designed for his protection.
UNQUOTE
Notice the word "authenticity" only appears in the title and first line?? It doesn't say diddly-squat about recourse if you buy a "bad" coin in a PCGS slab!! I certainly expect HRH to honor his statement to Julian and promptly provide a meaningful guaranty of authenticity, even if you are 'are satisfied the way it currently is".
I am no "legal eagle" as you claim to be, but I do know enough about such things that it is the spirit of the agreement that trumps the verbiage. I am satisfied with the spirit.
Comments
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>Yes MBT, please tell us why you keep on and on. >>
Because I beleive those of us who buy PCGS coins and use PGGS's services deserve a valid guaranty of authenticity with specified recourse.
Truth, justice and the American way!
I always look forward to you bumping this thread.
It's always so informative.
That's a very good question!
Let's start this week's ttt bump early.
<< <i>I'm glad that dillweed is still asking the tough questions!
I will not relent in my quest!
so how about let's see the coin or coins you're broken-recording about....
certainly you have a claim of some sort, and aren't just whining on and on about the principle of this issue?
no one is that big a dunce. What you got to show
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>it's just you, all alone, replying to yourself now. thread is losing steam and repetitive..
so how about let's see the coin or coins you're broken-recording about....
certainly you have a claim of some sort, and aren't just whining on and on about the principle of this issue?
no one is that big a dunce. What you got to show >>
You're doing a great job (bumping this thread)
And you give him hell for doing so!!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>it's just you, all alone, replying to yourself now. thread is losing steam and repetitive..
so how about let's see the coin or coins you're broken-recording about....
no one is that big a dunce. What you got to show >>
You're doing a great job (bumping this thread)
And you give him hell for doing so!!!!
Yeah, thanks for the bumps guys!
"certainly you have a claim of some sort, and aren't just whining on and on about the principle of this issue?"
No. I have no claim but sure would like to know the extent to which I have recourse if one of my PCGS coins should prove to be "bad". Wouldn't you?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>MBT---Have you tried the resusitated Q & A forum? >>
Might be worth a try to supplement posting here, thanks for the suggestion.
Too many folks here support my views (usually by PM) to discontinue posting on this thread. It also accords everyone an opportunity to take shot at me.
Ever wonder why PCGS won't participate in the discussion?
<< <i>certainly you have a claim of some sort, and aren't just whining on and on about the principle of this issue? >>
I've been making the complaint for years and not just about PCGS but NGC and ANACS as well, and I support MBT on this quest, and I certainly don't have any claim against any of them because I don't buy slabbed coins. For me yes it IS the principle.
Changes are made by those that lose business or want more business.
<< <i>
<< <i>certainly you have a claim of some sort, and aren't just whining on and on about the principle of this issue? >>
I've been making the complaint for years and not just about PCGS but NGC and ANACS as well, and I support MBT on this quest, and I certainly don't have any claim against any of them because I don't buy slabbed coins. For me yes it IS the principle. >>
For me yes it IS the principle.
Mee too!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>certainly you have a claim of some sort, and aren't just whining on and on about the principle of this issue? >>
I've been making the complaint for years and not just about PCGS but NGC and ANACS as well, and I support MBT on this quest, and I certainly don't have any claim against any of them because I don't buy slabbed coins. For me yes it IS the principle. >>
For me yes it IS the principle.
Mee too! >>
Well COndor101 put his money where is mouth is:
NOW, WE FIND AN OUTSTANDING EDITORIAL IN THIS WEEK'S COIN WORLD ENTITLED: Majors mum on authenticity guarantees
By Conder101. A few excerpts:
QUOTE
..............
A great many of the third- and fourth-tier grading services do have written warranties of authenticity on their Web sites. Some of them are a bit vague about what specifically your compensation will be if an item is found to be fraudulent, but they do seem to imply that you will at least get your slabbing fees back.
.............
On the other hand, the major services on their Web sites all make sure to specifically inform the collector that the grading on their slabs is guaranteed and what the collector’s options are and how he will be compensated if the grading of the coin is wrong. However, none of the major services have any specific written guarantee of authenticity! There is nothing about how a collector will be compensated if his coin turns out to be a fake.
After several years on the Professional Coin Grading Service coin forums, a few "troublemakers" [who, MBT?] have agitated on this topic enough that, in at least one ad in Coin World, PCGS did include the line, "All coins in PCGS holders are guaranteed to be authentic." Not on their Web site, just in an advertisement. That is the sum total response of several years of questioning on the forum, and in my case 20 years of pointing out to anyone who would listen that their "guarantee" contained no discussion about authenticity.
The other major services Web sites are no better. No written guarantee of authenticity, no discussion of how a collector would be compensated.
.............
Now I admit, to date, the major grading services have been very forthright and have always stood behind their product and compensated the collector. But past behavior does not mandate future behavior. Having paid off others in the past does not obligate them to pay off for newly discovered fakes in the future. For that you need a written promise or guarantee, something that someone can point to and say, "You have made this obligation!"
So I have to wonder about the major grading firms. Why are they afraid of putting their necks on the line with a written, specific, guarantee of authenticity......
UNQUOTE
Maybe those who have slammed me in this quest will stop and think about this important subject, assuming they are cabable of intelligent thinking.
Conder101 certainly has his thinking cap on!!
A very good question!
<< <i>So I have to wonder about the major grading firms. Why are they afraid of putting their necks on the line with a written, specific, guarantee of authenticity......
A very good question! >>
Most of the other people on here have a different agenda.
They need to worry about hypotheticals, a coin posse that is in theory only, OT's, eBay auctions, "The mint screwed me" threads, AT, NT, etc.
<< <i>Maybe they are not expert enough in altered and conterfeit coins AND they do not alot enough time to check out every submitted coin. >>
Then they shouldn't advertise the "PCGS Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity"!!!!!!
On the first part, PCGS publishes a book on the subject, that many of us have purchased.
I would hope they're experts enough on the subject.
On the second part, they have enough time to grade & guarantee that grade on every submitted coin. How much more time is involved in making sure it's authentic?
<< <i>they have enough time to grade & guarantee that grade on every submitted coin. How much more time is involved in making sure it's authentic? >>
A very good point!
What the heck does that mean?
Anything less than the value of an authentic coin would not be right, so why not be specific?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Maybe they are not expert enough in altered and conterfeit coins AND they do not alot enough time to check out every submitted coin.
On the first part, PCGS publishes a book on the subject, that many of us have purchased.
I would hope they're experts enough on the subject.
On the second part, they have enough time to grade & guarantee that grade on every submitted coin. How much more time is involved in making sure it's authentic? >>
How much time is allotted to the grading process? Maybe 10 seconds per coin?
If every grader knew all the diagnostics of all forgeries and conterfeits for every series in his head, then maybe it would not add much additional time to the grading process. I believe the TPG's are more interested with assigning grades quickly rather then the tedious task of determining authenticity for every coin.
You may be right!
<< <i>" I believe the TPG's are more interested with assigning grades quickly rather then the tedious task of determining authenticity for every coin."
You may be right! >>
And he may be wrong. The authenticity of the vast majority of coins can be determined almost instantaneously by experts.
<< <i>MBT, why don't you write up what you think it should be instead of complaining about what it is. How much time would it take you?-----------BigE >>
Been there, done that (read the entire thread).
The better question is why doesn't PCGS simply state what recourse exists if a "bad" coin is slabbed by PCGS!!
<< <i>
<< <i>Instead of a bunch of legalistic language, I prefer a company that has a blanket policy of "We'll make it right". >>
Agreed. In point of fact, "we make it right" are the words David Hall has repeatedly used when discussing PCGS's willingness to stand behind their product. He's not only said it here on the forums, but also in conversations with many collectors, myself included.
Russ, NCNE >>
"We'll make it right"
Talk about "wiggle room". Why doesn't HRH put his money where his mouth is??
PCGS owes it's customers a definitive statement IMO!!
I am a collector
And things, well things
They tend to accumulate
<<
<< The only option is pay the owner the value of a genuine coin of the same grade. PCGS publishes a price guide, so that should be the measurement IMO! >>
One would think so but that is not the case. A dealer friend of mine had the 1970 NO S Jeff in 67DCAM. It had turned bad in the holder. PCGSs offer what they stated was fair market value was $1,100. Even though the price guide stated $1,400 and then went up to $1,450. The dealer paid $1,400 for the coin and PCGSs answer to that was, we don't care if the dealer paid too much, we pay what we think is FMV. >>
".....we pay what we think is FMV"
When it comes to authenticity, how do you like "we'll make it right"???
That's as clear as mud!
<< <i>Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. >>
Should they be faced with a counterfeit coin, I do not think that there would be anyone that would be dis-satisfied with the settlement that PCGS offered. I think that the same would hold true for NGC, ANACS & ICG.
If there was, the owner would probably be an unreasonable person. All of the above named services would absolutely bend over backwards to get the counterfeit out of their holder.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
<< <i> All of the above named services would absolutely bend over backwards to get the counterfeit out of their holder. >>
At present, their customers are bending over forwards (buns up 'n beggin') because they have no meaningful guaranty!
Why won't the TPGs simply provide a guaranty of authenticity with specific recourse?
Julian, when did you convert from a TPG naysayer to a supporter?
I do not have any differences on authenticity.
These are two entirely different areas.
Authenticity is objective.
Grading is subjective.
I am a supporter of the professional services when it comes to authenticity.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
<< <i>I have differences with all of the services on grading. I am sure that we all do.
I do not have any differences on authenticity.
These are two entirely different areas.
Authenticity is objective.
Grading is subjective.
I am a supporter of the professional services when it comes to authenticity. >>
Great--why don't you use you influence and outstanding reputation to get the TPGs to issue definitive guaranties of authenticity with specific recourse?
You would be a great advocate for this very important issue.
If PCGS did not back up their authenticity guarantee, they would soon be out of business. If PCGS goes out of business, they will not be able to back up their authenticity guarantee.
<< <i>Here's my take on the issue:
If PCGS did not back up their authenticity guarantee, they would soon be out of business. >>
Back it up how?
"We'll make it right" doesn't seem to be very definitive, does it?
David just emailed me back
Thanks Julian…we’ll do it…some people just can’t be pleased!!!!!!
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
<< <i>I emailed the thread to David Hall and Ron Guth and suggested that they beef up their written guarantee.
David just emailed me back
Thanks Julian…we’ll do it…some people just can’t be pleased!!!!!! >>
WOW!
Way to go Julian and David!!
<< <i>
<< <i>Here's my take on the issue:
If PCGS did not back up their authenticity guarantee, they would soon be out of business. >>
Back it up how?
"We'll make it right" doesn't seem to be very definitive, does it? >>
Frankly, that is a heck of a lot better than "we'll pay you Greysheet bid" or "we'll pay you what you paid for the coin (if you can document it)" or "we'll replace it with another one (of our choosing)". In order for it to be made right, in the service business, the customer must be satisfied. I'll take "We'll make it right".
Oh, and I am still waiting for an example of a counterfeit coin in a PCGS holder in which the person stuck with the counterfeit was not satisfied with the result.
<< <i>The # of counterfeit coins that have ever been in PCGS are probably far fewer than 100. >>
PCGS slabbed approx 200 micro O Morgans (1896, 1900, & 1902) which were later determined to be counterfeit. Those that were returned were compensated for and as far as I know, everyone has been fairly compensated. Many were never sent back to PCGS since now they are collectable as contemporary counterfeits.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
See my thread "David Hall sez PCGS will Beef-Up Guaranty of Authenticity!!! MAJORBIG NEWS!!!!!"
If you are reading this, please inform Mr. Hall that some of us are satisfied the way it currently is.
Edit: typo
<< <i>Julian,
If you are reading this, please inform Mr. Hall that some of us are satisfied the way it currently is.
>>
I assume you are either very naive or have not read the existing policy.
Read the guaranty (they call it a guarantee) for authenticity protection and you will ask yourself "Where's Waldo?"
QUOTE
PCGS Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity
Customer Bill of Rights
The Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity is fundamental to PCGS's concept of third-party grading. The cash-back policy ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PCGS coin as long as it remains in its tamper-evident holder. If a coin is believed to be improperly graded, and a discrepancy is found when resubmitted through PCGS's Downgrade Resubmission service, the guarantee entitles the coin's owner to options designed for his protection.
UNQUOTE
Notice the word "authenticity" only appears in the title and first line?? It doesn't say diddly-squat about recourse if you buy a "bad" coin in a PCGS slab!!
I certainly expect HRH to honor his statement to Julian and promptly provide a meaningful guaranty of authenticity, even if you are 'are satisfied the way it currently is".
For all of you who roasted, toasted and flamed me for this post, I have a big Bronx Cheer!