<< <i>If we just ignore these threads, they will eventually go away. >>
When an ostrich thinks it is going to become dinner for a bigger/ hungrier animal, it sticks its head in the sand and thinks that the bigger hungrier animal won't notice its nice big fat butt sticking way up in the air just waiting to be munched on
Hope this lack of a guarantee never proves to be a problem, but.... I don't like my butt that exposed while I am pretending there is nothing wrong in the world....
<< <i>......PCGS states clearly , in plain written English , in full page ad`s in Coin World Newspapers :
they guareentee authenticity in that they will buy back any coin that is not authentic.
Big time , maybe you can`t ead english , maybe you have a mental disorder , or maybe
you just got the lights on but nobody`s home ..........i dunno , but you should waste your
precious time in some other constuctive way . >>
I haven't seen those ads (can you provide one here?), but do know that their website contains the "official" guarantee terms. Those terms don't say diddly squat about recourse for non-authenticity.
If they suitably modify the official verbiage, I'll say "thanks" and drop this thread.
Until then, it's full speed ahead!
BTW, what's the meaning of "they guareentee(sp) authenticity in that they will buy back any coin that is not authentic."
<< <i>A strong point can be made that positions should not just be implied. Take all this lovely AT copper that some of our respected board members are dirtying their hands with, or maybe other coin series that we don't know about yet. If the poo-poo ever hit the fan and it was "discovered" that a major TPG company let some questionable coins into their plastic because of who the submitter(s) was, and this company was suddenly facing an incredible amount of buy-backs--- maybe enough to put this major TPG company under--- a written guarantee or written position would be nice for all the unfortunate holders of these slabs as opposed to a vague understanding that things will be made right. If any company claims a position on something like this- then they should back that claim with something in writing. Very clear/understandable writing. >>
RIGHT ON!!
Some of you folks are finally geting to the core issue that I've been harping (and carping) on for years!
[q. If any company claims a position on something like this- then they should back that claim with something in writing. Very clear/understandable writing. >>
RIGHT ON!!
Some of you folks are finally geting to the core issue that I've been harping (and carping) on for years!
Where's PCGS on this??? >>
Seems like they don't like your ass. >>
So what! This ain't no popularity contest!
PCGS represents that it offers a guarantee of authenticity in a very misleading manner, IMO. Why don't they say what they mean, and mean what they say!
<< <i>[q. If any company claims a position on something like this- then they should back that claim with something in writing. Very clear/understandable writing. >>
RIGHT ON!!
Some of you folks are finally geting to the core issue that I've been harping (and carping) on for years!
Where's PCGS on this??? >>
Seems like they don't like your ass. >>
So what! This ain't no popularity contest!
PCGS represents that it offers a guarantee of authenticity in a very misleading manner, IMO. Why don't they say what they mean, and mean what they say! >>
Supercarcoins is correct, they did publish one full page ad a month or two ago that did say that. (And I did post about here on the forum about it when they did.)
PCGS: Let's think about this for a sec, majorbigtime. Why would somebody put a guarantee on a slab? Hmmm, very interesting.
majorbigtime: Go on, I'm listening.
PCGS: Here's the way I see it, majorbigtime. Guy puts a fancy guarantee on a slab 'cause he wants you to feel all warm and toasty inside.
majorbigtime: Yeah, makes a man feel good.
PCGS: Course it does. Why shouldn't it? You figure you put that little slab under your pillow at night, the Guarantee Fairy might come by and leave a quarter, am I right, majorbigtime?
majorbigtime: What's your point?
PCGS: The point is, how do you know the fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little fairy, well, we're not buying it. He sneaks into your house once, that's all it takes. The next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser and your daughter's knocked up, I've seen it a hundred times.
majorbigtime: But why do they put a guarantee on the slab?
PCGS: Because they know all they sold ya was a guaranteed piece of crap. That's all it is, isn't it? Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a slab and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for now, for your customer's sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality product from me.
majorbigtime: Okay, I'll buy from you.
PCGS: Well, that's... What?
Crudely adapted from the epic "Tommy Boy"
I pick things up I am a collector And things, well things They tend to accumulate
<< <i>PCGS: Let's think about this for a sec, majorbigtime. Why would somebody put a guarantee on a slab? Hmmm, very interesting.
majorbigtime: Go on, I'm listening.
PCGS: Here's the way I see it, majorbigtime. Guy puts a fancy guarantee on a slab 'cause he wants you to feel all warm and toasty inside.
majorbigtime: Yeah, makes a man feel good.
PCGS: Course it does. Why shouldn't it? You figure you put that little slab under your pillow at night, the Guarantee Fairy might come by and leave a quarter, am I right, majorbigtime?
majorbigtime: What's your point?
PCGS: The point is, how do you know the fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little fairy, well, we're not buying it. He sneaks into your house once, that's all it takes. The next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser and your daughter's knocked up, I've seen it a hundred times.
majorbigtime: But why do they put a guarantee on the slab?
PCGS: Because they know all they sold ya was a guaranteed piece of crap. That's all it is, isn't it? Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a slab and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for now, for your customer's sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality product from me.
majorbigtime: Okay, I'll buy from you.
PCGS: Well, that's... What?
Crudely adapted from the epic "Tommy Boy" >>
It's PCGS, not me, that claims to offer a "Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity". I just want them to put some meat on the bones, that's all!
Actually, the way I perceive it, you're looking for an excuse to be fat and lazy and not educate yourself for your own protection. But of course, that's the American way of life... find someone else to blame or hold liable for all of your problems.
<< <i> BTW, what's the meaning of "they guareentee(sp) authenticity in that they will buy back any coin that is not authentic."
Buy back at what price (face value or?)???? >>
Not to stir the pot - but I'd like to know this too.
As someone just getting back into the hobby, where slabs didn't exist when I was last in it - I've relied on the fairly solid advice of: buy PCGS & NGC slabs only. This has been great for the few hundred dollar coins.
Before I plunk down 5k or so for a PCGS gold piece for example, it would be nice to know WHAT IF should it be discovered down the road it had mistakenly been slabbed. If for nothing else, I can show my wife and assure her
I have no doubt PCGS would "Make it right" based on all the threads I've read, I doubt they would just try to pay me face for it, but what is right to them may not be to me. If it is discovered it is not authentic, do I get the 5K I paid for it back (and how do I prove that - do I need a receipt?), do they reimburse by their price guide (Say 4k), last known auction sale (What if it's 3k) or something else.
The delivery may be a little over the top at times, but I think MBT at least has a valid question/desire for clarification.
<< <i> BTW, what's the meaning of "they guareentee(sp) authenticity in that they will buy back any coin that is not authentic."
Buy back at what price (face value or?)???? >>
Not to stir the pot - but I'd like to know this too.
As someone just getting back into the hobby, where slabs didn't exist when I was last in it - I've relied on the fairly solid advice of: buy PCGS & NGC slabs only. This has been great for the few hundred dollar coins.
Before I plunk down 5k or so for a PCGS gold piece for example, it would be nice to know WHAT IF should it be discovered down the road it had mistakenly been slabbed. If for nothing else, I can show my wife and assure her
I have no doubt PCGS would "Make it right" based on all the threads I've read, I doubt they would just try to pay me face for it, but what is right to them may not be to me. If it is discovered it is not authentic, do I get the 5K I paid for it back (and how do I prove that - do I need a receipt?), do they reimburse by their price guide (Say 4k), last known auction sale (What if it's 3k) or something else.
The delivery may be a little over the top at times, but I think MBT at least has a valid question/desire for clarification. >>
It's nice to see that someone else recognizes the importance of this issue.
Frankly, I'm surprised the whole forum isn't outraged by the lack of a precise statement about recourse if a PCGS coin proves to be "bad". PCGS claims to guarantee authenticity, but does so in a very misleading and deceptive manner IMO.
Well PCGS has taken a tiny step towards a meaningful written guarantee of authenticity.
In the June 26th Coin World, PCGS has a full page ad which includes the statement:
"2) Guaranteed Authentication. PCGS guarantees the authenticity of every coin they grade and we support our promise with a money-back guarantee."
WOW! What money back? The PCGS grading fee? What you paid for the coin (what if inherited, bought for a song 40 years ago, found in a cornerstone, etc.)?
I believe we are entitled to a specific form of compensation, not some nebulous "we'll make it right" type of recourse.
"You are so persistent about this it makes me wonder which grading service is paying you. "
'Sorry MBT, whatever your scam is, your quest to "pin them down" and then "spring it on them" "
Sorry folks, I'm not fronting for anyone and have no hidden agenda--I just want to know what recourse PCS offers under THEIR "Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity". Any dealer whorth his/her salt will return the purchase price for a "bad" coin, plain and simple!
I think the micro O morgan is a perfect example. PCGS learned they slabbed counterfeit coins. PCGS is paying people back what had been FMV of those coins. I don't know how they are calculating it.... last 5 zuctions, PCGS price Guide, e-bay sales, owner actual cost, etc. but I have NO COMPLAINTS about people losing their shirt like they would if the coin had no guarantee. 90% of the board members have had enough of your crusade. You've made your point publicly and no one cares to join you in your pursuit.
I believe we are entitled to a specific form of compensation, not some nebulous "we'll make it right" type of recourse.
This "specific form of compensation", how would it be determined? If through a "proof of purchase" in a form of a receipt, would every seller be required to issue a validated receipt that is acceptable to PCGS? And if this is true, how does one protect itself from fraud whether it be PCGS, the seller or the buyer? For PCGS to spell out something that would fully explain their guarantee of authenticity would end up being too ambiguous. I don't believe it can be done, not in a sense that it would be satisfactory to everyone. They should have said that they will "try" to make it right, once the problem is found believable. And I'm certain each case is a little different then the last. How could they write up a guarantee of authenticity that would cover every possible situation. They have their ways of validating a claim. Spelling it out or devulging the way they conduct their business, may not be in their best interest to get satisfactory results.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i> A money back guarantee is a term used throughout the commercial industry .
It is self explanitory . >>
And in every case that self explanation means that you get back the money you paid to the company. So if the coin is fake, under the a 'selfexplanitory" logic all the collector would be entitled to would be the slabbing fee. Oh and through out comercial industry the money back guarante is not normally transferable. So only the original submitter of the fake coin would be entitled to the slabbing fee back.
<< <i>You've made your point publicly and no one cares to join you in your pursuit. >>
Well I know I'm not important, but I don't think I'm no one. MBT has apparently been enough of a thorn in their side that they are finally starting to publicly coment on authenticity. Something they have avoided doing for twenty years.
<< <i>This "specific form of compensation", how would it be determined? If through a "proof of purchase" in a form of a receipt, would every seller be required to issue a validated receipt that is acceptable to PCGS? And if this is true, how does one protect itself from fraud whether it be PCGS, the seller or the buyer? For PCGS to spell out something that would fully explain their guarantee of authenticity would end up being too ambiguous. I don't believe it can be done, not in a sense that it would be satisfactory to everyone. >>
<< <i>[For PCGS to spell out something that would fully explain their guarantee of authenticity would end up being too ambiguous. I don't believe it can be done, not in a sense that it would be satisfactory to everyone. >>
They did it with the grading guarantee. >>
Say What???
Please denote where recourse for a non-authentic coin is stated.
QUOTE
PCGS Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity Customer Bill of Rights
The Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity is fundamental to PCGS's concept of third-party grading. The cash-back policy ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PCGS coin as long as it remains in its tamper-evident holder. If a coin is believed to be improperly graded, and a discrepancy is found when resubmitted through PCGS's Downgrade Resubmission service, the guarantee entitles the coin's owner to options designed for his protection.
UNQUOTE
Carefully read the guaranty (they call it a guarantee) for recourse in the event of non-authenticity and you will ask yourself "Where's Waldo?"
Sorry forthe confusion MBT, what I meant was they specificly spelled out their responsibility in the respect of a GRADING error. Specificly what they would do and how the compensation would be figured.
By the way, is that the full text of their guarantee now? The one I always think of and go by was the one they used several years ago. It was about six paragraphs long and all it discused was the grading guarantee. In it the only place authenticity was mentioned was in the title, not even in the first sentence like it is in the text you quote. I'll have to see if I can round up a copy of it and post the whole thing.
Read the guaranty (they call it a guarantee) for authenticity protection and you will ask yourself "Where's Waldo?"
QUOTE
PCGS Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity Customer Bill of Rights
The Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity is fundamental to PCGS's concept of third-party grading. The cash-back policy ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PCGS coin as long as it remains in its tamper-evident holder. If a coin is believed to be improperly graded, and a discrepancy is found when resubmitted through PCGS's Downgrade Resubmission service, the guarantee entitles the coin's owner to options designed for his protection.
UNQUOTE
Notice the word "authenticity" only appears in the title and first line?? It doesn't say diddly-squat about recourse if you buy a "bad" coin in a PCGS slab!!
Why doesn't PCGS clarify this?? IMO, the guarantee is not only deficient but is misleading as well.
The guarantee is not even gender politically correct-- "designed for his protection." Does that mean the ladies are unprotected, both as respects grade and authenticity? That would leave them "naked"!
Well, PCGS has taken a tiny step towards a meaningful written guarantee of authenticity.
In the June 26th Coin World, PCGS has a full page ad which includes the statement:
"2) Guaranteed Authentication. PCGS guarantees the authenticity of every coin they grade and we support our promise with a money-back guarantee."
WOW! What money back? The PCGS grading fee? What you paid for the coin (what if inherited, bought for a song 40 years ago, found in a cornerstone, etc.)?
I believe we are entitled to a specific form of compensation, not some nebulous "we'll make it right" type of recourse
Whadda' 'ya say HomeRunHall??? >>
Ever since "See Dick run" in first grade (only the old farts in here like me will remember that), I've become accustomed to the reference "he" as a substitute generic for "anybody," so it's no great shakes. I kept hoping that "s/he" would catch on for awhile but it never has.
As for PCGS's guarantee, if it isn't authentic then it kind of goes without saying the grade is worthless, the coin went from whatever to 0. And that's the point from which I'd be bargaining with PCGS if that were to occur.
But do you think it's possible a non-authentic coin would get past PCGS graders, though? They seem to be darned picky to me.
EDITED TO ADD: Disregard last question. I hadn't read the whole thread and just saw itsnotjustme's post about PCGS slabbing counterfeits. Oh, the pain. Who can you trust?
All I got to say to this is ask James Garcia (Early US) About how PCGS Stands behind thier coins they holder. I am sure he would have a words to say on this subject.
<< <i>As for PCGS's guarantee, if it isn't authentic then it kind of goes without saying the grade is worthless, the coin went from whatever to 0. And that's the point from which I'd be bargaining with PCGS if that were to occur. >>
Not really, a counterfiet has a grade just like a genuine coin. A grade is simply a statement of the amount of wear, or in the case of unworn pieces the number of contact marks, a piece has received. A counterfeit that has circulated and received wear to the extent that it rates as an XF is still an XF. So the GRADE assigned is still valid even though the coin is fake. The GRADE does not go to 0, although the value might. For that reason PCGS/NGC or any of the services with a similar guarantee could claim that they do not owe compensation under the grade guarantee, and you have to fall back on the non-existant authenticity guarantee.
I have to say I got a bit of a laugh out of the 10/2 Coin World editorial where Ms Deisher discusses TPG services and recommends that collectors check their websites for their written authenticity guarantees, and states that reputable firms have money back gurantees on their authentications. If you do that you will find that many of the third tier services DO have money back guarantees on the authenticity of the pieces they slab but that since grading is subjective they don't warrenty the grading. The "reputable" services tend to have it the other way around going on and on about how they guarantee their grading but with NO specific warrenties on authenticity. If you are concerned about authenticity and follow Ms Deisher's advice you should only buy coins in third tier slabs.
I've GOT to write a letter to the editor on that one.
<< <i>If you do that you will find that many of the third tier services DO have money back guarantees on the authenticity of the pieces they slab but that since grading is subjective they don't warrenty the grading. . >>
Comments
<< <i>If we just ignore these threads, they will eventually go away. >>
When an ostrich thinks it is going to become dinner for a bigger/ hungrier animal, it sticks its head in the sand and thinks that the bigger hungrier animal won't notice its nice big fat butt sticking way up in the air just waiting to be munched on
Hope this lack of a guarantee never proves to be a problem, but.... I don't like my butt that exposed while I am pretending there is nothing wrong in the world....
<< <i>If we just ignore these threads, they will eventually go away. >>
That seems to be the PCGS philosophy!
they guareentee authenticity in that they will buy back any coin that is not authentic.
Big time , maybe you can`t ead english , maybe you have a mental disorder , or maybe
you just got the lights on but nobody`s home ..........i dunno , but you should waste your
precious time in some other constuctive way .
<< <i>......PCGS states clearly , in plain written English , in full page ad`s in Coin World Newspapers :
they guareentee authenticity in that they will buy back any coin that is not authentic.
Big time , maybe you can`t ead english , maybe you have a mental disorder , or maybe
you just got the lights on but nobody`s home ..........i dunno , but you should waste your
precious time in some other constuctive way . >>
I haven't seen those ads (can you provide one here?), but do know that their website contains the "official" guarantee terms. Those terms don't say diddly squat about recourse for non-authenticity.
If they suitably modify the official verbiage, I'll say "thanks" and drop this thread.
Until then, it's full speed ahead!
BTW, what's the meaning of "they guareentee(sp) authenticity in that they will buy back any coin that is not authentic."
Buy back at what price (face value or?)????
<< <i>
<< <i>A strong point can be made that positions should not just be implied.
Take all this lovely AT copper that some of our respected board members are dirtying their hands with, or maybe other coin series that we don't know about yet.
If the poo-poo ever hit the fan and it was "discovered" that a major TPG company let some questionable coins into their plastic because of who the submitter(s) was, and this company was suddenly facing an incredible amount of buy-backs--- maybe enough to put this major TPG company under--- a written guarantee or written position would be nice for all the unfortunate holders of these slabs as opposed to a vague understanding that things will be made right.
If any company claims a position on something like this- then they should back that claim with something in writing. Very clear/understandable writing. >>
RIGHT ON!!
Some of you folks are finally geting to the core issue that I've been harping (and carping) on for years!
Where's PCGS on this??? >>
Seems like they don't like your ass.
If any company claims a position on something like this- then they should back that claim with something in writing. Very clear/understandable writing. >>
RIGHT ON!!
Some of you folks are finally geting to the core issue that I've been harping (and carping) on for years!
Where's PCGS on this??? >>
Seems like they don't like your ass.
So what! This ain't no popularity contest!
PCGS represents that it offers a guarantee of authenticity in a very misleading manner, IMO. Why don't they say what they mean, and mean what they say!
<< <i>[q.
If any company claims a position on something like this- then they should back that claim with something in writing. Very clear/understandable writing. >>
RIGHT ON!!
Some of you folks are finally geting to the core issue that I've been harping (and carping) on for years!
Where's PCGS on this??? >>
Seems like they don't like your ass.
So what! This ain't no popularity contest!
PCGS represents that it offers a guarantee of authenticity in a very misleading manner, IMO. Why don't they say what they mean, and mean what they say! >>
I'll bet you don't get headaches.
majorbigtime: Go on, I'm listening.
PCGS: Here's the way I see it, majorbigtime. Guy puts a fancy guarantee on a slab 'cause he wants you to feel all warm and toasty inside.
majorbigtime: Yeah, makes a man feel good.
PCGS: Course it does. Why shouldn't it? You figure you put that little slab under your pillow at night, the Guarantee Fairy might come by and leave a quarter, am I right, majorbigtime?
majorbigtime: What's your point?
PCGS: The point is, how do you know the fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little fairy, well, we're not buying it. He sneaks into your house once, that's all it takes. The next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser and your daughter's knocked up, I've seen it a hundred times.
majorbigtime: But why do they put a guarantee on the slab?
PCGS: Because they know all they sold ya was a guaranteed piece of crap. That's all it is, isn't it? Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a slab and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for now, for your customer's sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality product from me.
majorbigtime: Okay, I'll buy from you.
PCGS: Well, that's... What?
Crudely adapted from the epic "Tommy Boy"
I am a collector
And things, well things
They tend to accumulate
<< <i>PCGS: Let's think about this for a sec, majorbigtime. Why would somebody put a guarantee on a slab? Hmmm, very interesting.
majorbigtime: Go on, I'm listening.
PCGS: Here's the way I see it, majorbigtime. Guy puts a fancy guarantee on a slab 'cause he wants you to feel all warm and toasty inside.
majorbigtime: Yeah, makes a man feel good.
PCGS: Course it does. Why shouldn't it? You figure you put that little slab under your pillow at night, the Guarantee Fairy might come by and leave a quarter, am I right, majorbigtime?
majorbigtime: What's your point?
PCGS: The point is, how do you know the fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little fairy, well, we're not buying it. He sneaks into your house once, that's all it takes. The next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser and your daughter's knocked up, I've seen it a hundred times.
majorbigtime: But why do they put a guarantee on the slab?
PCGS: Because they know all they sold ya was a guaranteed piece of crap. That's all it is, isn't it? Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a slab and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for now, for your customer's sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality product from me.
majorbigtime: Okay, I'll buy from you.
PCGS: Well, that's... What?
Crudely adapted from the epic "Tommy Boy" >>
It's PCGS, not me, that claims to offer a "Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity". I just want them to put some meat on the bones, that's all!
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
<< <i>You have a warped perception! >>
Kirk to bridge: Warp drive!!
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
<< <i>Naw, but I can be one! >>
Not to me!
<< <i>
BTW, what's the meaning of "they guareentee(sp) authenticity in that they will buy back any coin that is not authentic."
Buy back at what price (face value or?)???? >>
Not to stir the pot - but I'd like to know this too.
As someone just getting back into the hobby, where slabs didn't exist when I was last in it - I've relied on the fairly solid advice of: buy PCGS & NGC slabs only. This has been great for the few hundred dollar coins.
Before I plunk down 5k or so for a PCGS gold piece for example, it would be nice to know WHAT IF should it be discovered down the road it had mistakenly been slabbed. If for nothing else, I can show my wife and assure her
I have no doubt PCGS would "Make it right" based on all the threads I've read, I doubt they would just try to pay me face for it, but what is right to them may not be to me. If it is discovered it is not authentic, do I get the 5K I paid for it back (and how do I prove that - do I need a receipt?), do they reimburse by their price guide (Say 4k), last known auction sale (What if it's 3k) or something else.
The delivery may be a little over the top at times, but I think MBT at least has a valid question/desire for clarification.
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
<< <i>
<< <i>
BTW, what's the meaning of "they guareentee(sp) authenticity in that they will buy back any coin that is not authentic."
Buy back at what price (face value or?)???? >>
Not to stir the pot - but I'd like to know this too.
As someone just getting back into the hobby, where slabs didn't exist when I was last in it - I've relied on the fairly solid advice of: buy PCGS & NGC slabs only. This has been great for the few hundred dollar coins.
Before I plunk down 5k or so for a PCGS gold piece for example, it would be nice to know WHAT IF should it be discovered down the road it had mistakenly been slabbed. If for nothing else, I can show my wife and assure her
I have no doubt PCGS would "Make it right" based on all the threads I've read, I doubt they would just try to pay me face for it, but what is right to them may not be to me. If it is discovered it is not authentic, do I get the 5K I paid for it back (and how do I prove that - do I need a receipt?), do they reimburse by their price guide (Say 4k), last known auction sale (What if it's 3k) or something else.
The delivery may be a little over the top at times, but I think MBT at least has a valid question/desire for clarification. >>
It's nice to see that someone else recognizes the importance of this issue.
Frankly, I'm surprised the whole forum isn't outraged by the lack of a precise statement about recourse if a PCGS coin proves to be "bad". PCGS claims to guarantee authenticity, but does so in a very misleading and deceptive manner IMO.
In the June 26th Coin World, PCGS has a full page ad which includes the statement:
"2) Guaranteed Authentication. PCGS guarantees the authenticity of every coin they grade and we support our promise with a money-back guarantee."
WOW! What money back? The PCGS grading fee? What you paid for the coin (what if inherited, bought for a song 40 years ago, found in a cornerstone, etc.)?
I believe we are entitled to a specific form of compensation, not some nebulous "we'll make it right" type of recourse.
Because every case is different--gifts vs. inheritances vs. private submissions vs. auction purchases---
the formula to get your damages refunded can not be precise. The idea is you get your money
back, or the market value back, or damages reembursed--depending on dozens of different possible circumstances.
if "inherited, bought for a song 40 years ago, found in a cornerstone, etc."
you haven't LOST anything, have you?
(except your dream of cheating PCGS out of something)
Sorry MBT, whatever your scam is, your quest to "pin them down" and then "spring it on them"
is unlikely to ever work. Suggestion: give it up
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
'Sorry MBT, whatever your scam is, your quest to "pin them down" and then "spring it on them" "
Sorry folks, I'm not fronting for anyone and have no hidden agenda--I just want to know what recourse PCS offers under THEIR "Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity". Any dealer whorth his/her salt will return the purchase price for a "bad" coin, plain and simple!
A money back guarantee is a term used throughout the commercial industry .
It is self explanitory .
However , i believe many if not most have written in a clause in fine print :
" Majorbigtime is excluded from this guarantee because he is a DUMBASS "
This "specific form of compensation", how would it be determined? If through a "proof of purchase" in a form of a receipt, would every seller be required to issue a validated receipt that is acceptable to PCGS? And if this is true, how does one protect itself from fraud whether it be PCGS, the seller or the buyer?
For PCGS to spell out something that would fully explain their guarantee of authenticity would end up being too ambiguous. I don't believe it can be done, not in a sense that it would be satisfactory to everyone.
They should have said that they will "try" to make it right, once the problem is found believable. And I'm certain each case is a little different then the last. How could they write up a guarantee of authenticity that would cover every possible situation. They have their ways of validating a claim. Spelling it out or devulging the way they conduct their business, may not be in their best interest to get satisfactory results.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>I'll "tt" this post every month or so--maybe someday we will get an answer. >>
Do you ever get headaches??
Do you suffer from DSB???
<< <i> A money back guarantee is a term used throughout the commercial industry .
It is self explanitory . >>
And in every case that self explanation means that you get back the money you paid to the company. So if the coin is fake, under the a 'selfexplanitory" logic all the collector would be entitled to would be the slabbing fee. Oh and through out comercial industry the money back guarante is not normally transferable. So only the original submitter of the fake coin would be entitled to the slabbing fee back.
<< <i>You've made your point publicly and no one cares to join you in your pursuit. >>
Well I know I'm not important, but I don't think I'm no one. MBT has apparently been enough of a thorn in their side that they are finally starting to publicly coment on authenticity. Something they have avoided doing for twenty years.
<< <i>This "specific form of compensation", how would it be determined? If through a "proof of purchase" in a form of a receipt, would every seller be required to issue a validated receipt that is acceptable to PCGS? And if this is true, how does one protect itself from fraud whether it be PCGS, the seller or the buyer?
For PCGS to spell out something that would fully explain their guarantee of authenticity would end up being too ambiguous. I don't believe it can be done, not in a sense that it would be satisfactory to everyone. >>
They did it with the grading guarantee.
<< <i>[For PCGS to spell out something that would fully explain their guarantee of authenticity would end up being too ambiguous. I don't believe it can be done, not in a sense that it would be satisfactory to everyone. >>
They did it with the grading guarantee. >>
Say What???
Please denote where recourse for a non-authentic coin is stated.
QUOTE
PCGS Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity
Customer Bill of Rights
The Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity is fundamental to PCGS's concept of third-party grading. The cash-back policy ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PCGS coin as long as it remains in its tamper-evident holder. If a coin is believed to be improperly graded, and a discrepancy is found when resubmitted through PCGS's Downgrade Resubmission service, the guarantee entitles the coin's owner to options designed for his protection.
UNQUOTE
Carefully read the guaranty (they call it a guarantee) for recourse in the event of non-authenticity and you will ask yourself "Where's Waldo?"
By the way, is that the full text of their guarantee now? The one I always think of and go by was the one they used several years ago. It was about six paragraphs long and all it discused was the grading guarantee. In it the only place authenticity was mentioned was in the title, not even in the first sentence like it is in the text you quote. I'll have to see if I can round up a copy of it and post the whole thing.
With all the AT concerns, etc, this issue is more important than ever IMO!
<< <i>Well, sort of......
Read the guaranty (they call it a guarantee) for authenticity protection and you will ask yourself "Where's Waldo?"
QUOTE
PCGS Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity
Customer Bill of Rights
The Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity is fundamental to PCGS's concept of third-party grading. The cash-back policy ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PCGS coin as long as it remains in its tamper-evident holder. If a coin is believed to be improperly graded, and a discrepancy is found when resubmitted through PCGS's Downgrade Resubmission service, the guarantee entitles the coin's owner to options designed for his protection.
UNQUOTE
Notice the word "authenticity" only appears in the title and first line?? It doesn't say diddly-squat about recourse if you buy a "bad" coin in a PCGS slab!!
Why doesn't PCGS clarify this?? IMO, the guarantee is not only deficient but is misleading as well.
The guarantee is not even gender politically correct-- "designed for his protection." Does that mean the ladies are unprotected, both as respects grade and authenticity? That would leave them "naked"!
Well, PCGS has taken a tiny step towards a meaningful written guarantee of authenticity.
In the June 26th Coin World, PCGS has a full page ad which includes the statement:
"2) Guaranteed Authentication. PCGS guarantees the authenticity of every coin they grade and we support our promise with a money-back guarantee."
WOW! What money back? The PCGS grading fee? What you paid for the coin (what if inherited, bought for a song 40 years ago, found in a cornerstone, etc.)?
I believe we are entitled to a specific form of compensation, not some nebulous "we'll make it right" type of recourse
Whadda' 'ya say HomeRunHall??? >>
Ever since "See Dick run" in first grade (only the old farts in here like me will remember that), I've become accustomed to the reference "he" as a substitute generic for "anybody," so it's no great shakes. I kept hoping that "s/he" would catch on for awhile but it never has.
As for PCGS's guarantee, if it isn't authentic then it kind of goes without saying the grade is worthless, the coin went from whatever to 0. And that's the point from which I'd be bargaining with PCGS if that were to occur.
But do you think it's possible a non-authentic coin would get past PCGS graders, though? They seem to be darned picky to me.
EDITED TO ADD: Disregard last question. I hadn't read the whole thread and just saw itsnotjustme's post about PCGS slabbing counterfeits. Oh, the pain. Who can you trust?
<< <i>As for PCGS's guarantee, if it isn't authentic then it kind of goes without saying the grade is worthless, the coin went from whatever to 0. And that's the point from which I'd be bargaining with PCGS if that were to occur. >>
Not really, a counterfiet has a grade just like a genuine coin. A grade is simply a statement of the amount of wear, or in the case of unworn pieces the number of contact marks, a piece has received. A counterfeit that has circulated and received wear to the extent that it rates as an XF is still an XF. So the GRADE assigned is still valid even though the coin is fake. The GRADE does not go to 0, although the value might. For that reason PCGS/NGC or any of the services with a similar guarantee could claim that they do not owe compensation under the grade guarantee, and you have to fall back on the non-existant authenticity guarantee.
I have to say I got a bit of a laugh out of the 10/2 Coin World editorial where Ms Deisher discusses TPG services and recommends that collectors check their websites for their written authenticity guarantees, and states that reputable firms have money back gurantees on their authentications. If you do that you will find that many of the third tier services DO have money back guarantees on the authenticity of the pieces they slab but that since grading is subjective they don't warrenty the grading. The "reputable" services tend to have it the other way around going on and on about how they guarantee their grading but with NO specific warrenties on authenticity. If you are concerned about authenticity and follow Ms Deisher's advice you should only buy coins in third tier slabs.
I've GOT to write a letter to the editor on that one.
<< <i>If you do that you will find that many of the third tier services DO have money back guarantees on the authenticity of the pieces they slab but that since grading is subjective they don't warrenty the grading. . >>
I wonder what "money back" means?
Return of the slabbing fee??
My opinion is well known.
What say thee?
<< <i>Do you suffer from DSB???
Yeah, I'm a Damn Stubborn Boy!
Whatever your little scheme is, with every post to this thread, the chances of your pulling it off go down and down
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>No matter how many times you ask, they're not going to let you scam them out of money you never lost
Whatever your little scheme is, with every post to this thread, the chances of your pulling it off go down and down >>
I don't understand your post. Please describe this scam that MBT is trying to perpetuate?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>
<< <i>No matter how many times you ask, they're not going to let you scam them out of money you never lost
Whatever your little scheme is, with every post to this thread, the chances of your pulling it off go down and down >>
I don't understand your post. Please describe this scam that MBT is trying to perpetuate? >>
Indeed, speak up.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry