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Wouldn't you like PCGS to offer a meaningful AUTHENTICITY guarantee?
majorbigtime
Posts: 2,937 ✭
Read the guaranty (they call it a guarantee) for authenticity protection and you will ask yourself "Where's Waldo?"
QUOTE
PCGS Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity
Customer Bill of Rights
The Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity is fundamental to PCGS's concept of third-party grading. The cash-back policy ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PCGS coin as long as it remains in its tamper-evident holder. If a coin is believed to be improperly graded, and a discrepancy is found when resubmitted through PCGS's Downgrade Resubmission service, the guarantee entitles the coin's owner to options designed for his protection.
UNQUOTE
Notice the word "authenticity" only appears in the title and first line?? It doesn't say diddly-squat about recourse if you buy a "bad" coin in a PCGS slab!!
Why doesn't PCGS clarify this?? IMO, the guarantee is not only deficient but is misleading as well.
The guarantee is not even gender politically correct-- "designed for his protection." Does that mean the ladies are unprotected, both as respects grade and authenticity? That would leave them "naked"!
Well, PCGS has taken a tiny step towards a meaningful written guarantee of authenticity.
In the June 26th Coin World, PCGS has a full page ad which includes the statement:
"2) Guaranteed Authentication. PCGS guarantees the authenticity of every coin they grade and we support our promise with a money-back guarantee."
WOW! What money back? The PCGS grading fee? What you paid for the coin (what if inherited, bought for a song 40 years ago, found in circulation, etc.)?
I believe we are entitled to a specific form of compensation, not some nebulous "we'll make it right" type of recourse
Whadda' 'ya say HomeRunHall???
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Russ, NCNE
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>I think PCGS stands behind what they grade with respect to authenticity. I am not sure other TPG companies are in their league on this >>
You can be sure NGC, ANACS, and ICG have grading guarantees which they honor. I'm sure 99% of their refunds are due to grading errors rather than authentication errors. Authentication errors are relatively rare.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>To all but the most dense among us, a guarantee of authenticity is obviously just that - the coin is guaranteed to be authentic. >>
Agreed, the problem is there is no stated guarantee here.
Congratulations Majorbigtime, you've stumbled onto something I've been harping about for 18 years. I will give them credit though. Even though they don't have a stated guarantee they have always stood behind their opinions and made them good when tey have been wrong.
Oh and ANACS, NGC, and ICG have the same type of non-stated guarantees as well. Not one of them has stated in writing that if a coin they slab as genuine is later found to be counterfeit that they will reimburse the owner of the coin.
The NGC Guarantee does not apply to copper, bronze or copper nickel coins graded by NGC prior to April 1, 2000. To the extent that the NGC Guarantee applies to copper, bronze, or copper nickel coins, the NGC Guarantee expires with respect to such coin(s) on the ten year anniversary of the date of encapsulation by NGC. Additionally, any NGC certified coin deemed by us to be representative of a clerical error is not covered by the NGC guarantee. Clerical errors may be returned to NGC for correction of labeling at no charge to the submitter.
I also don't see where the confusion is with the PCGS grade guarantee?
<< <i>An important note about the NGC Grade Guarantee:
The NGC Guarantee does not apply to copper, bronze or copper nickel coins graded by NGC prior to April 1, 2000. To the extent that the NGC Guarantee applies to copper, bronze, or copper nickel coins, the NGC Guarantee expires with respect to such coin(s) on the ten year anniversary of the date of encapsulation by NGC. Additionally, any NGC certified coin deemed by us to be representative of a clerical error is not covered by the NGC guarantee. Clerical errors may be returned to NGC for correction of labeling at no charge to the submitter.
I also don't see where the confusion is with the PCGS grade guarantee? >>
Hmmmm. Does this mean that NGC doesn't guarantee authenticity of copper, bronze or copper nickel coins graded by NGC prior to April 1, 2000 or that the NGC Guarantee (for authenticity) expires with respect to such coin(s) on the ten year anniversary of the date of encapsulation by NGC????.
<< <i>I also don't see where the confusion is with the PCGS grade guarantee? >> >>
There is no question with their grade guarantee. The grade guarantee is quite specific and spells out their responsibilities and the customers options. The question is about the authenticity guarantee about which they say not one word in writing.
<< <i>Hmmmm. Does this mean that NGC doesn't guarantee authenticity of copper, bronze or copper nickel coins graded by NGC prior to April 1, 2000 or that the NGC Guarantee (for authenticity) expires with respect to such coin(s) on the ten year anniversary of the date of encapsulation by NGC????. >>
The section of NGC's guarantee that was quoted is part of and refers to their GRADE guarantee. Like PCGS, NGC makes no written mention about authenticity and their responcibility if a coin turns out to not be authentic.
Tom
<< <i>PCGS guarantees the authenticity of any coin it slabs. Should the coin ever fail in being authentic, such as the 1902-O micro O silver dollars, they will pay you for the fair market value of the coin as if it were genuine. Very simple.
Tom >>
I'd sure like to hear that (in writing) from PCGS.
<< <i>MBT are you fixated on this? >>
Yes, I'm fixated.
I've been asking for a definitive statement from PCGS ever since the FTC investigation 15 year ago. No answer has been forthcoming.
I think PCGS (and others who actually will do more than refund the slab fee, crack the coin and return it to you) knows that smoe people will try to maniplulate the market or otherwise try to maximize their profit from buying a counterfeit and turning it in for a "reward"... If they state what they will do, they might be locked in to how they handle it. That would put them at the mercy of those who would play the hold-up game.
The guarantee is not about savy players shaking down PCGS; it is about protecting collectors from the potential loss that might happen on a counterfeit, thus eliminating a certain degree of risk. Since they are 'insuring' the coin, don't you think there are those who would try to commit fraud to gain an inordinate and unjust share of the insurance pool?
How many micro "O" fakes are there slabbed by PCGS? I hardly think it fair for an owner to hold onto the counterfeit and dump it on PCGS when they are happy with the anticipated profits or when they think the market will tank, demanding current higher FMV when they could have turned the fake in earlier, for example.
The way it is written, PCGS can look at factors beyond the coin itself to fashion a remedy, IMHO.
Of course, you have to figure this stuff out; they cannot answer this...
Or it gives bad actors the idea... And good actors also can become bad actors with this knowledge.
15 years and you do not have a clue why they will not give out a blanket guarantee?
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<< <i>PCGS guarantees the authenticity of any coin it slabs. Should the coin ever fail in being authentic, such as the 1902-O micro O silver dollars, they will pay you for the fair market value of the coin as if it were genuine. Very simple.
Tom >>
I'd sure like to hear that (in writing) from PCGS. >>
I know I've said this before, but while it might be nice, does it matter whether it's in writing or not? They either stand behind their product or they don't, and I'm not aware of a single instance of PCGS not making good on a bad coin.
Instead of a bunch of legalistic language, I prefer a company that has a blanket policy of "We'll make it right". No loopholes.
Anybody can promise something in writing and still do whatever they please. A company can issue in writing an "Iron-clad 100% guarantee" but if they choose not to honor it, what's the point? A guarantee is only as good as the intentions of the issuer.
As long as PCGS continues to stand behind their product, I don't care what they do or don't put in writing, because it doesn't matter.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
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<< <i>
<< <i>PCGS guarantees the authenticity of any coin it slabs. Should the coin ever fail in being authentic, such as the 1902-O micro O silver dollars, they will pay you for the fair market value of the coin as if it were genuine. Very simple.
Tom >>
I'd sure like to hear that (in writing) from PCGS. >>
I know I've said this before, but while it might be nice, does it matter whether it's in writing or not? They either stand behind their product or they don't, and I'm not aware of a single instance of PCGS not making good on a bad coin.
Instead of a bunch of legalistic language, I prefer a company that has a blanket policy of "We'll make it right". No loopholes.
Anybody can promise something in writing and still do whatever they please. A company can issue in writing an "Iron-clad 100% guarantee" but if they choose not to honor it, what's the point? A guarantee is only as good as the intentions of the issuer.
As long as PCGS continues to stand behind their product, I don't care what they do or don't put in writing, because it doesn't matter. >>
+1
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>Instead of a bunch of legalistic language, I prefer a company that has a blanket policy of "We'll make it right". >>
Agreed. In point of fact, "we make it right" are the words David Hall has repeatedly used when discussing PCGS's willingness to stand behind their product. He's not only said it here on the forums, but also in conversations with many collectors, myself included.
Russ, NCNE
yinz is right, an 'at. Course, one could sue on the guarantee, if POed enough and if'n PCGS doesn't make it right.
In coins, is it automatic; if'n yinz put your name on the coin's holder, it better be genuine or it could come back to haunt yinz.
So no dealer wants to have you POed because he sold you a fake. Its bad for biz. A fortuori, no grading service wants a fake in its holder, either. Both will usually do what it takes to see that you are not stuck, if they are honest people. If they are willing to see you lose when you were depending on their expertise, and paying them for it, then they just ain't right.
Of course, one company just cracks them out and gives you the fake coin back... They have a guarantee too. Hey, everyone has a guarantee.
Look at SGS... They generally only slab moderns... How many (well made) fake modern US are there? Virtually no chance you will ever exercise the guarantee at SGS... So why have one? Answer is: Marketing; you cannot have a grading service without a guarantee. SGS has a big official looking one, IIRC. The meaning of these guarantees is apparent only when a counterfeit can be found.
<< <i>I'm going to get some popcorn........
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<< <i>
<< <i>I'm going to get some popcorn........
Glad it's not ice cream--surely would melt before an answer is forthcoming.
Excellent idea!
Your second option is don't buy the coin in a holder if you disagree with the terms. Same, thing goes with insuarance policy's for example if I don't agree with the terms I just won't buy it. So, you have other options if you don't agree with the terms. IMO
did a search for guarantee with homerunhall author got 3 pages worth
not sure if this work
<< <i>Major, have you posted your question on the Q & A forum? >>
Agreed, it is an excellent question, and if he is serious about his concern, he will avail himself of the opportunity. I'll be watching. BTW, pose the question before the usual Tuesday answers from DH, as the questions are reviewed prior to appearing and being answered.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i> Instead of a bunch of legalistic language, I prefer a company that has a blanket policy of "We'll make it right". >>
Don't need the legalisic language, "We'll make it right" would be perfectly acceptable. Now all they have to do is add a line to their guarantee of grade and authenticity that says "And if a coin in a PCGS holder is ever found to not be authentic, we wil make it right." That is all we are asking for. That has been our whole complaint. If there are grading problems they are very specific about how they will make it right and what their options are and what your options are etc. But for authenticity they don't even specificly say that they will make it right, let alone any details about how they would make it right.
over 4 months since this was posted, and still no answer. Once again, I ask:
What exactly is PCGS's AUTHENTICITY guaranty?
<< <i>over 4 months since this was posted, and still no answer. >>
That's because David Hall has had a long-standing policy of ignoring idiots.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>over 4 months since this was posted, and still no answer. >>
That's because David Hall has had a long-standing policy of ignoring idiots.
Russ, NCNE >>
That seems to be a reasonable statement to me.
If I only had a dollar for every VAM I have...err...nevermind...I do!!
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<< <i>
<< <i>over 4 months since this was posted, and still no answer. >>
That's because David Hall has had a long-standing policy of ignoring idiots.
Russ, NCNE >>
<< <i>----------------------------UPDATE----------------------------------
over 4 months since this was posted, and still no answer. Once again, I ask:
What exactly is PCGS's AUTHENTICITY guaranty? >>
MBT, did you ever ask this question in the Q&A forum?
<< <i>
<< <i>----------------------------UPDATE----------------------------------
over 4 months since this was posted, and still no answer. Once again, I ask:
What exactly is PCGS's AUTHENTICITY guaranty? >>
MBT, did you ever ask this question in the Q&A forum? >>
He don't want an answer.
He just likes to hear the wind whistling from his mouth!!
<< <i>
Bluefish are really fun to catch -- pound for pound they are real fighters!
<< <i>MBT, did you ever ask this question in the Q&A forum? >>
Yes he has.
If you go with a coin that fake they will take care of the problem with you.
What they don't want is some slick dealer or collector basically try and scam them out of a large sum of money. If it is open ended that would be different legally then a statement on there website.....
Attorney's probably said you can't say this or that about any guarantee.....
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<< <i>MBT, did you ever ask this question in the Q&A forum? >>
Yes he has. >>
Then I presume the question was not answered there either, at least not publicly.
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<< <i>over 4 months since this was posted, and still no answer. >>
That's because David Hall has had a long-standing policy of ignoring idiots.
Russ, NCNE >>
Great answer, Russ. You must remember that the OP, Major Bigtime, is a lawyer, used to dealing in the world of smoke and mirrors, where the obvious can turn out to be not obvious if the jury buys the argument.
But the old timers here know that PCGS DOES stand behind it's grading and authenticity guarantee, doesn't put a miserly ten year gurantee on copper or bronze coins graded after some date in 2000, and that's why it continues to be the most respected grading company, warts and all.
Ira
That's a good question--I will not relent in my quest for an answer.
<< <i>What exactly is PCGS's AUTHENTICITY guaranty
That's a good question--I will not relent in my quest for an answer. >>
You know the answer. Quit being such a child!
Maybe you need to go rest a bit!!
We all need to find meaning in our lives- I am glad that you have found yours.....
<< <i>That's a good question--I will not relent in my quest for an answer. >>
You know the answer. >>
Yes we do know the answer, there isn't a guarantee. Just so far honorable behavior on PCGS's part.
<< <i>So Becoka, how many counterfeit coins in PCGS slabs have you sent back to them? If you just mean that you have taken then up on the grading guarantee, that isn't meaningful to the discussion. There hasn't been any question over the grading guarantee. The grading guarantee is precise and detailed. The authenticity guarantee is nonexistant. They have always stood behind their product, but there is no written guarantee stating what they have to do in the case of an authenticity claim.
<< <i>That's a good question--I will not relent in my quest for an answer. >>
You know the answer. >>
Yes we do know the answer, there isn't a guarantee. Just so far honorable behavior on PCGS's part. >>
Agreed no counterfiets but another way to look at this is if they give me market value for items that are not counterfiet, most likely they would go the extra mile to remove a counterfiet coin from thier slabs as well. So even though it is not in writing, by other people posting only good things there is hope.
If PCGS gets stingy and does not refund the value of a coin because it is counterfiet the news would travel and people would eventually cross the street.
That's the bottom line---PCGS will do what ever it takes or costs to protect their good reputation.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.