I think the intention was pure...but then the reality, once you think it through, becomes more complicated.
For instance, say you have a coin that is currently in a 64 holder and it could be a 65. When one looks at the coin and then the holder it's in, because of the built in bias of the original holder, one would say "it could be a 65", but this is different than "it IS a 65". Very easily a coin that is in a 64 holder can be described as "it could be a 63" also.
These grades are within the margin of error, as it would appear to be, and thus if you look at the coin and it is not clear/cut and dry, it is difficult to say whether or not there is any kind of systematic scrutiny going on. It is these liner coins that probably present the greatest challenge for collectors and graders alike.
One can look at a number of coins that one can rationalize in a 63, 64 or 65 holder (we're speaking of PCGS only, now). If you look at the same coin that is currently in a 63 holder and put it in to a 65 holder, one can somehow rationalize a 65 grade (because people really do underestimate the built in bias of the blue slab with a number on it). Conversely if one saw one of the 65 coins in a 63 holder, one can probably point to why it's a 63 (again, the bias of that darn blue piece of paper). I've personally watched this happen over and over.
So to circle back to the topic now, I would make an assumption that a majority of the coins submitted to HRH were liner coins. If HRH upgrades them, that would open the flood gates for more liner coins. If HRH says they're acceptable for the given grade, then the complaints come because you can show HRH 30 coins just like yours in higher graded holders.
It's a no win situation. I would also assume that if HRH looked at a coin and said "it IS a 65" as opposed to "it could be a 65", he would do the right thing and upgrade the coin. But then again -- I'm an eternal optimist and give people the benefit of the doubt.
Having said that -- PCGS does need to rethink it's grading of Mercury Dimes I have a batch that I'm itching to send in...but they will sit raw (for a while) until I see some improvement in the newer graded Mercs
it's "after June 1st" for an awful long time, Mark, as a matter of fact it's after June 1st right now. if he had said he'd post something before a certain date and that had passed, you might have a point. currently, you don't.
it's "after June 1st" for an awful long time, Mark, as a matter of fact it's after June 1st right now. if he had said he'd post something before a certain date and that had passed, you might have a point. currently, you don't.
Wow, under that theory if you bought a coin from me and I told you I would ship it after December 6th, you wouldn't have a problem waiting until May 2006?
I should add that I don't really care about the report, but I think Mark has a very valid point regarding expectations based on the original post.
over 218 posts, and 6 months down the road- has the original poster received a response from DH in regards to the question that was posed and what were the results of the Pres review?
Sad to think that this may honestly be a truthful thread regarding grades.
Boom: Perhaps you may be over-reacting a bit here?
I confess that I have not read through all 220 or so posts on this thread, BUT, it appears to me from what I have read that there are very, very few collectors who have not received back their Presidential Reviews under this offer. Could it be that PCGS did not receive enough Presidential Reviews in the first place under this offer to draw any conclusion, positive or negative, on the issue of the current grading standard? Is the investigation ongoing? Have there even been any collectors out there that have disagreed with the Presidential Review results thus far and have posted such disagreement for us all to examine? Could DH have provided us all an update on the ongoing investigation - of course. Is the failure to provide an update the "end of the world as we know it" - of course not.
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Personally, I have total, unbridled respect for the PCGS Name and the Empire HRH built. I DID NOT send coins in to be reviewed as I did not wish to add to this monumental, self imposed workload.
The thing that troubles me is leaving issues on the table for way too long. Don't you think all these people deserve some answers? What's with the Silence?
If I didn't believe in HRH and this company do you think for one minute I would continue to submit my coins here? I've sent coins in over the years that crossed at the same grades, some I submitted raw that graded very well right along with some that didn't and by the same token I've also had some very key coins upgrade. All I know is "something" has happened this past year in particular and there has been no public address, as promised.
Just how long must this grumbling continue before HRH addresses these people? Is he terminally ill or something? Seriously !! There are just way too many unanswered questions here and just a tad too may key people leaving this organization. What's REALLY going on?
I'm simply saying that as founder and leader of PCGS he owes it to everyone to step up to the podium and tell it like it is, just as HE stated he would. Is this too much to ask?
<< <i>Maybe we'll hear something and I'll stand corrected....but I don't think its gonna happen. Like I said...its a no-win either way. >>
How can grading remain consistent over an extended period of time? Say 2 years? 5 years? 10? How can PCGS satisfy everyone when the best they can do is grade at a middle ground? There's no such thing as a MS65 or MS66 that everyone can agree on! There are too many varibles and predilections to get anything accurate. Let it go everyone!
Although, if the discussion of the 100 point agenda falls through at the FUN Show, we may hear something then!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
I agree with Mitch,and Leo..My opinion without much detail...Your a bunch of crybabys.God forbid if I diden't keep a promise...The freaking world would end.Tar him,feather him,hell DH has nothing better to do than satisfy CU board babys.Get a life guys..Drop it. Al
I beleieve HRH was the one who offered this thread voluntairly. If you owned a large company for 20 years and are dealing with a major law suit that can take a big toll in 20 years of work. Not too mention the new purchases of Coin Facts, Certified Coin Exchange, and the new Vam programs that he finally made possible per collectors requests. The new photo system that we have all been asking for. I beleive he also runs all the other Collectors Universe services as well. I think he also attends major coin shows which are always taking place.
<< Could it be that PCGS did not receive enough Presidential Reviews in the first place under this offer to draw any conclusion, positive or negative, on the issue of the current grading standard? Is the investigation ongoing?
Wondercoin. >>
I very much doubt that this is the case WC. My impression is that a lot of folks jumped all over HRH's offer!
<< <i>Is the investigation ongoing?
Wondercoin. >>
If that was the case, why in heck doesn't HRH just say so? It's his silence on the subject that has everyone bent out of shape.
It makes it appear that something is amiss!
"Wars are really ugly! They're dirty and they're cold. I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole." Mary
I think all the Coins in question were put in a "special room" and someone lost the key. A locksmith would be called but no one wants to be the one that puts an additional workload on the graders.
One day, someone will actually open the room. When that day is and who that someone will be, are still to be decided.
"I very much doubt that this is the case WC. My impression is that a lot of folks jumped all over HRH's offer! "
BM: You could be right - as I said, I did not read the entire thread. Have a number of board members stated that they have still not received their coins back since they took advantage of this offer back in the Summer?
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
And I am going to keep TTT'ing this thread so that it remains at the top every time I come in to look at the PCGS forum until I hear the following officially from PCGS:
- We canceled the research and cannot report results - We completed the research and the results were not statistically conclusive due to... (sample size, grading discrepancies, etc) - We completed the research and choose not to report the results - We completed the research and the following are the findings.
It is my personal mission to keep this thread at the top of page 1 forever until we hear something. All new CU Forum members will see it. We will see it almost everyday until someone backs up this commitment. Either we get an answer or CU takes the dishonorable step to remove the thread, which I sincerely hope they do not.
I have no coins in this. I don't submit these type of coins. But one of my talented mentors (Fortune 500 Sr VP) told me the most important thing you can do is follow through on your commitments. One of the above answers is factual. After 6 months, it's time we found out which one.
Tom
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981 Current focus 1855 date type set
And I am going to keep TTT'ing this thread so that it remains at the top every time I come in to look at the PCGS forum until I hear the following officially from PCGS:
- We canceled the research and cannot report results - We completed the research and the results were not statistically conclusive due to... (sample size, grading discrepancies, etc) - We completed the research and choose not to report the results - We completed the research and the following are the findings.
It is my personal mission to keep this thread at the top of page 1 forever until we hear something. All new CU Forum members will see it. We will see it almost everyday until someone backs up this commitment. Either we get an answer or CU takes the dishonorable step to remove the thread, which I sincerely hope they do not.
I have no coins in this. I don't submit these type of coins. But one of my talented mentors (Fortune 500 Sr VP) told me the most important thing you can do is follow through on your commitments. One of the above answers is factual. After 6 months, it's time we found out which one. >>
MDG, Cool and thanks. It looks like David did come through just yesterday and I missed it. Would have been clearer posting to this thread, but having your link in here works.
OK, let this thing die a quiet death.
Tom
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981 Current focus 1855 date type set
One of DH's response...... Very few people have the grading skills that match the PCGS graders. You are probably missing something on the coin if you think it's undergraded. You might be right, but you're probably not. Even the pros who play the crack-out game have their share of misses. They may tell you about the hits, but they tell me (and complain) about the misses. I see it every day with Presidential Reviews in the grading room and every time I'm at a show doing "Meet The Expert." HOPE SPRINGS ETERNAL...and OWNERSHIP ADDS A POINT...or two!
So that's what happened. My advice...have fun and enjoy your coins. Leave the crack out GAMBLING to the pros.
Many have said PCGS has tightened its grading standards for 20th century issues. I have not seen any evidence of this >>>
I've submitted coins since PCGS first opened their doors, and I can tell you 100% and without a doubt that PCGS has clearly changed their standards several times over the years, and anyone who tells you different is either dreaming or just doesn't know what they're looking at or hasn't been around long enough.
My guess for the wide variation in grading standards over the years is probably the many different graders at PCGS since 1986, and as everyone knows (or should know) that no 2 people grade exactly alike or look for the same things when grading regardless of who they are or how much experience they have, etc. This would also explain why so many hundreds of thousands of coins have changed grades over the years, and why some people have literally made a living by cracking out coins for resubmission.
Again, for anyone at PCGS or elsewhere to claim that their grading standards have remained consistent (or even close) since inception is either purposely misleading you, doesn't have a clue, or just hasn't experienced all the changes over the years.
Many have said PCGS has tightened its grading standards for 20th century issues. I have not seen any evidence of this >>>
I've submitted coins since PCGS first opened their doors, and I can tell you 100% and without a doubt that PCGS has clearly changed their standards several times over the years, and anyone who tells you different is either dreaming or just doesn't know what they're looking at or hasn't been around long enough.
My guess for the wide variation in grading standards over the years is probably the many different graders at PCGS since 1986, and as everyone knows (or should know) that no 2 people grade exactly alike or look for the same things when grading regardless of who they are or how much experience they have, etc. This would also explain why so many hundreds of thousands of coins have changed grades over the years, and why some people have literally made a living by cracking out coins for resubmission.
Again, for anyone at PCGS or elsewhere to claim that their grading standards have remained consistent (or even close) since inception is either purposely misleading you, doesn't have a clue, or just hasn't experienced all the changes over the years. >>
Dragon, I'm curious about the last time you were aware of a change of grading standards, especialy with moderns? Rob
Modern dollars are like children - before you know it they'll be all grown up.....
I remember HRH's response, it must have been in another thead. Basically he said (as I remember it) that most of the coins that were reviewed were graded accurately. Some even had scratches and other blemishes that held the coins back from a higher grade.
There was a response though.........
My humble '63 mint registry set, not much, but it's mine!
Many have said PCGS has tightened its grading standards for 20th century issues. I have not seen any evidence of this >>>
I've submitted coins since PCGS first opened their doors, and I can tell you 100% and without a doubt that PCGS has clearly changed their standards several times over the years, and anyone who tells you different is either dreaming or just doesn't know what they're looking at or hasn't been around long enough.
My guess for the wide variation in grading standards over the years is probably the many different graders at PCGS since 1986, and as everyone knows (or should know) that no 2 people grade exactly alike or look for the same things when grading regardless of who they are or how much experience they have, etc. This would also explain why so many hundreds of thousands of coins have changed grades over the years, and why some people have literally made a living by cracking out coins for resubmission.
Again, for anyone at PCGS or elsewhere to claim that their grading standards have remained consistent (or even close) since inception is either purposely misleading you, doesn't have a clue, or just hasn't experienced all the changes over the years. >>
Comments
We regret to inform you that the server inadvertantly left out part of that post. It should have read 'June 1, 2010'. Please carry on...
I think the intention was pure...but then the reality, once you think it through, becomes more complicated.
For instance, say you have a coin that is currently in a 64 holder and it could be a 65. When one looks at the coin and then the holder it's in, because of the built in bias of the original holder, one would say "it could be a 65", but this is different than "it IS a 65". Very easily a coin that is in a 64 holder can be described as "it could be a 63" also.
These grades are within the margin of error, as it would appear to be, and thus if you look at the coin and it is not clear/cut and dry, it is difficult to say whether or not there is any kind of systematic scrutiny going on. It is these liner coins that probably present the greatest challenge for collectors and graders alike.
One can look at a number of coins that one can rationalize in a 63, 64 or 65 holder (we're speaking of PCGS only, now). If you look at the same coin that is currently in a 63 holder and put it in to a 65 holder, one can somehow rationalize a 65 grade (because people really do underestimate the built in bias of the blue slab with a number on it). Conversely if one saw one of the 65 coins in a 63 holder, one can probably point to why it's a 63 (again, the bias of that darn blue piece of paper). I've personally watched this happen over and over.
So to circle back to the topic now, I would make an assumption that a majority of the coins submitted to HRH were liner coins. If HRH upgrades them, that would open the flood gates for more liner coins. If HRH says they're acceptable for the given grade, then the complaints come because you can show HRH 30 coins just like yours in higher graded holders.
It's a no win situation. I would also assume that if HRH looked at a coin and said "it IS a 65" as opposed to "it could be a 65", he would do the right thing and upgrade the coin. But then again -- I'm an eternal optimist and give people the benefit of the doubt.
Having said that -- PCGS does need to rethink it's grading of Mercury Dimes
Don't say it if you can't or wont follow through.
it's "after June 1st" for an awful long time, Mark, as a matter of fact it's after June 1st right now. if he had said he'd post something before a certain date and that had passed, you might have a point. currently, you don't.
Wow, under that theory if you bought a coin from me and I told you I would ship it after December 6th, you wouldn't have a problem waiting until May 2006?
I should add that I don't really care about the report, but I think Mark has a very valid point regarding expectations based on the original post.
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
I guess now I am one more disappointed customer.
Can someone post this over on the Q&A forum so we can get an answer here?
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
" Is David Hall Hiding Something? "
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
I never would have believed it. "It" encompasses many thoughts right now..
Coffee, before I say another word.
Sad to think that this may honestly be a truthful thread regarding grades.
1- Professional
2- Service
I confess that I have not read through all 220 or so posts on this thread, BUT, it appears to me from what I have read that there are very, very few collectors who have not received back their Presidential Reviews under this offer. Could it be that PCGS did not receive enough Presidential Reviews in the first place under this offer to draw any conclusion, positive or negative, on the issue of the current grading standard? Is the investigation ongoing? Have there even been any collectors out there that have disagreed with the Presidential Review results thus far and have posted such disagreement for us all to examine? Could DH have provided us all an update on the ongoing investigation - of course. Is the failure to provide an update the "end of the world as we know it" - of course not.
Wondercoin.
Personally, I have total, unbridled respect for the PCGS Name and the Empire HRH built. I DID NOT send coins in to be reviewed as I did not wish to add to this monumental, self imposed workload.
The thing that troubles me is leaving issues on the table for way too long. Don't you think all these people deserve some answers? What's with the Silence?
If I didn't believe in HRH and this company do you think for one minute I would continue to submit my coins here? I've sent coins in over the years that crossed at the same grades, some I submitted raw that graded very well right along with some that didn't and by the same token I've also had some very key coins upgrade. All I know is "something" has happened this past year in particular and there has been no public address, as promised.
Just how long must this grumbling continue before HRH addresses these people? Is he terminally ill or something? Seriously !! There are just way too many unanswered questions here and just a tad too may key people leaving this organization. What's REALLY going on?
I'm simply saying that as founder and leader of PCGS he owes it to everyone to step up to the podium and tell it like it is, just as HE stated he would. Is this too much to ask?
<< <i>Maybe we'll hear something and I'll stand corrected....but I don't think its gonna happen. Like I said...its a no-win either way. >>
How can grading remain consistent over an extended period of time? Say 2 years? 5 years? 10? How can PCGS satisfy everyone when the best they can do is grade at a middle ground? There's no such thing as a MS65 or MS66 that everyone can agree on! There are too many varibles and predilections to get anything accurate. Let it go everyone!
Although, if the discussion of the 100 point agenda falls through at the FUN Show, we may hear something then!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
if I diden't keep a promise...The freaking world would end.Tar him,feather him,hell DH has nothing better
to do than satisfy CU board babys.Get a life guys..Drop it.
Al
I beleieve HRH was the one who offered this thread voluntairly. If you owned a large company for 20 years and are dealing with a major law suit that can take a big toll in 20 years of work. Not too mention the new purchases of Coin Facts, Certified Coin Exchange, and the new Vam programs that he finally made possible per collectors requests. The new photo system that we have all been asking for. I beleive he also runs all the other Collectors Universe services as well. I think he also attends major coin shows which are always taking place.
So maybe you should give it some more time.
Well said and right on
Wondercoin. >>
I very much doubt that this is the case WC. My impression is that a lot of folks jumped all over HRH's offer!
<< <i>Is the investigation ongoing?
Wondercoin. >>
If that was the case, why in heck doesn't HRH just say so? It's his silence on the subject that has everyone bent out of shape.
It makes it appear that something is amiss!
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
One day, someone will actually open the room. When that day is and who that someone will be, are still to be decided.
BM: You could be right - as I said, I did not read the entire thread. Have a number of board members stated that they have still not received their coins back since they took advantage of this offer back in the Summer?
Wondercoin.
The real issue is HRH's statement that, "I'll post facts and figures after June 1." has never been followed up on.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
And I am going to keep TTT'ing this thread so that it remains at the top every time I come in to look at the PCGS forum until I hear the following officially from PCGS:
- We canceled the research and cannot report results
- We completed the research and the results were not statistically conclusive due to... (sample size, grading discrepancies, etc)
- We completed the research and choose not to report the results
- We completed the research and the following are the findings.
It is my personal mission to keep this thread at the top of page 1 forever until we hear something. All new CU Forum members will see it. We will see it almost everyday until someone backs up this commitment. Either we get an answer or CU takes the dishonorable step to remove the thread, which I sincerely hope they do not.
I have no coins in this. I don't submit these type of coins. But one of my talented mentors (Fortune 500 Sr VP) told me the most important thing you can do is follow through on your commitments. One of the above answers is factual. After 6 months, it's time we found out which one.
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
<< <i>TTT.
And I am going to keep TTT'ing this thread so that it remains at the top every time I come in to look at the PCGS forum until I hear the following officially from PCGS:
- We canceled the research and cannot report results
- We completed the research and the results were not statistically conclusive due to... (sample size, grading discrepancies, etc)
- We completed the research and choose not to report the results
- We completed the research and the following are the findings.
It is my personal mission to keep this thread at the top of page 1 forever until we hear something. All new CU Forum members will see it. We will see it almost everyday until someone backs up this commitment. Either we get an answer or CU takes the dishonorable step to remove the thread, which I sincerely hope they do not.
I have no coins in this. I don't submit these type of coins. But one of my talented mentors (Fortune 500 Sr VP) told me the most important thing you can do is follow through on your commitments. One of the above answers is factual. After 6 months, it's time we found out which one. >>
Didn't HRH already respond???
Link to thread
right silver eagles have been 69 and only 1 or 2 out if like 10 million are ms70 why?
Cool and thanks. It looks like David did come through just yesterday and I missed it. Would have been clearer posting to this thread, but having your link in here works.
OK, let this thing die a quiet death.
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
So that's what happened. My advice...have fun and enjoy your coins. Leave the crack out GAMBLING to the pros.
Or did this thread just fade away?
<< <i>Did this question ever get resolved?
Or did this thread just fade away? >>
Just ask the recent submitters!!
<< <i>
<< <i>Did this question ever get resolved?
Or did this thread just fade away? >>
Just ask the recent submitters!! >>
yeah - just ask Marty
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
Many have said PCGS has tightened its grading standards for 20th century issues. I have not seen any evidence of this >>>
I've submitted coins since PCGS first opened their doors, and I can tell you 100% and without a doubt that PCGS has clearly changed their standards several times over the years, and anyone who tells you different is either dreaming or just doesn't know what they're looking at or hasn't been around long enough.
My guess for the wide variation in grading standards over the years is probably the many different graders at PCGS since 1986, and as everyone knows (or should know) that no 2 people grade exactly alike or look for the same things when grading regardless of who they are or how much experience they have, etc. This would also explain why so many hundreds of thousands of coins have changed grades over the years, and why some people have literally made a living by cracking out coins for resubmission.
Again, for anyone at PCGS or elsewhere to claim that their grading standards have remained consistent (or even close) since inception is either purposely misleading you, doesn't have a clue, or just hasn't experienced all the changes over the years.
<< <i><<< Hi Everybody,
Many have said PCGS has tightened its grading standards for 20th century issues. I have not seen any evidence of this >>>
I've submitted coins since PCGS first opened their doors, and I can tell you 100% and without a doubt that PCGS has clearly changed their standards several times over the years, and anyone who tells you different is either dreaming or just doesn't know what they're looking at or hasn't been around long enough.
My guess for the wide variation in grading standards over the years is probably the many different graders at PCGS since 1986, and as everyone knows (or should know) that no 2 people grade exactly alike or look for the same things when grading regardless of who they are or how much experience they have, etc. This would also explain why so many hundreds of thousands of coins have changed grades over the years, and why some people have literally made a living by cracking out coins for resubmission.
Again, for anyone at PCGS or elsewhere to claim that their grading standards have remained consistent (or even close) since inception is either purposely misleading you, doesn't have a clue, or just hasn't experienced all the changes over the years. >>
Dragon, I'm curious about the last time you were aware of a change of grading standards, especialy with moderns? Rob
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
The entertainment can never be overdressed....except in burlesque
+1
There was a response though.........
<< <i><<< Hi Everybody,
Many have said PCGS has tightened its grading standards for 20th century issues. I have not seen any evidence of this >>>
I've submitted coins since PCGS first opened their doors, and I can tell you 100% and without a doubt that PCGS has clearly changed their standards several times over the years, and anyone who tells you different is either dreaming or just doesn't know what they're looking at or hasn't been around long enough.
My guess for the wide variation in grading standards over the years is probably the many different graders at PCGS since 1986, and as everyone knows (or should know) that no 2 people grade exactly alike or look for the same things when grading regardless of who they are or how much experience they have, etc. This would also explain why so many hundreds of thousands of coins have changed grades over the years, and why some people have literally made a living by cracking out coins for resubmission.
Again, for anyone at PCGS or elsewhere to claim that their grading standards have remained consistent (or even close) since inception is either purposely misleading you, doesn't have a clue, or just hasn't experienced all the changes over the years. >>
hmmmm......