I am stil waiting for all those that complain about PCGS grading to put their money where their mouth is and participate in the World Series of Grading...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>I am stil waiting for all those that complain about PCGS grading to put their money where their mouth is and participate in the World Series of Grading... >>
I am still waiting for PCGS to put something other than Morgans in the WSOG.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i><< I am stil waiting for all those that complain about PCGS grading to put their money where their mouth is and participate in the World Series of Grading... >>
Unless they think it will be a waste of time since they feel that David Hall will be less than totally unbiased. >>
David Hall's being biased or unbiased has nothing to do with the World Series of Grading.
<< <i><< I am stil waiting for all those that complain about PCGS grading to put their money where their mouth is and participate in the World Series of Grading... >>
Unless they think it will be a waste of time since they feel that David Hall will be less than totally unbiased. >>
David Hall's being biased or unbiased has nothing to do with the World Series of Grading.
Russ, NCNE >>
You are correct of course. I misread the statement I was commenting on. I thought he was refering to putting their money where their mouth is for the presidential review. Now that I reread the statement I find myself in agreement and editted my comment to reflect this. Sorry for the confusion.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Thanks for responding to the issue of perceived tightened grading standards for modern coins with the offer to view 1-20 coins via the Presidential Review process. I will send a group of coins and see if I'm "on the ball" or "out to lunch."
Well, it seems I missed the original post, and am responding late, BUT---I look forward to the results as I have some coins I would like to submit but have held off with all the rumors!!!
I've been sitting on a submission, but it will be on its way knowing David will eyeball any I think were misjudged. Very conscientious and kind of you to make the offer, David.
Extaordinary. Wish my cell phone service was this good. I don't think it's just moderns, though. Grading on gold is so brurtal, I'm terrified of sendinf anything in.
I am stil waiting for all those that complain about PCGS grading to put their money where their mouth is and participate in the World Series of Grading...
I'm still waiting for PCGS graders to participate to see if they can grade their own coins.
<< <i> I am stil waiting for all those that complain about PCGS grading to put their money where their mouth is and participate in the World Series of Grading...
I'm still waiting for PCGS graders to participate to see if they can grade their own coins.
roadrunner >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Taking your time here on the boards, listening and doing something about it is just plain old great customer service in the purest form. Thank you for starting a great business and then doing what's needed to be done to keep it going. My hats off to you.
I have a submission in for modern regrade guarantee (grades can go up or down is ok with me). It was rec. on 05/25/05 and with the weekends and coin shows is not due out until 07/20/2005 "then 35 Business days and now online it shows 42 days ". I don't care if it takes a little longer as long as they are seriously looked at and not just pushed through to get the backlog down. Part of what I sent in is a 1982 no P roosie in a 67 green labelled holder that with the scratches on the cheek should be in a 65 holder. Also 3 Clad Ikes all 1976D type II in MS66, in which one I made (solid grade), two purchased and one of which I believe to be an upgrade candidate. I feel positive that what ever the out come, your folks will do the right thing and I'll still love my coins Regards, Ken
He said until 6/01- with a 20 coin max, I believe today is 6/6- that if you take into account that it takes 6 seconds to grade a coin- he could have viewed at least 2000 by now. He is the expert you know, and if the expert takes longer than 6 seconds a coin- then what are we to think of the graders on staff?
Some kind of update should have been posted. That is all I am saying.
A bit optimistic to expect him to be done. For each coin he must
A. Review the coin B. Compare his grade to that on the slab and that of the submitter C. Write a response on each coin D. Where appropriate, direct a change in the coins grade
After this he must compile and analyse the results....
# Reviewed # Upgraded # Downgraded Statistical significance based on sample size Draw conclusions Determine changes (if required) Direct Implementation Prepare report to the boards
<< <i>He said until 6/01- with a 20 coin max, I believe today is 6/6- that if you take into account that it takes 6 seconds to grade a coin- he could have viewed at least 2000 by now. He is the expert you know, and if the expert takes longer than 6 seconds a coin- then what are we to think of the graders on staff?
Some kind of update should have been posted. That is all I am saying. >>
He said he would accept coins until 6.01. He did not say he would post results on 6.01. His exact words were:
<< <i>I'll post facts and figures after June 1. >>
A. Review the coin*** 6-7 seconds per coin.... B. Compare his grade to that on the slab and that of the submitter***** believe the grader C. Write a response on each coin*** response is grader was right.... D. Where appropriate, direct a change in the coins grade**** no change- the grade stands
After this he must compile and analyse the results....
# Reviewed***#of coins X 6 seconds # Upgraded**** no brainer...... # Downgraded***** ooops got 10 total- the boys slipped- no bonus for June. Statistical significance based on sample size**** done in A,B,D Draw conclusions***** done in C Determine changes (if required)**** see #downgraded Direct Implementation**** see #downgraded Prepare report to the boards **** advised to read the forum notes....
All kidding aside- I am curious to know how many actually submitted.
I don't think your comments are very funny! I did not even see a smilely face. If you have some constructive criticism, that's fine, but I think you crossed the line and need to re-think before you type.
Although you did not see a smiley , it was there- I have an opinion- just like each an everyone here- you don't have to accept what I say- that is YOUR choice, but to infer that I am ridiculing someone- I'm not- I asked a specific- this is a logical form of what the original post was many weeks ago- to date- no updates or response- just more posts to this thread. I'm sure Mr. Hall has had plenty of disgruntled collectors over the last 19 years- and odds are he will have many more- this is part of the business- and this is where in life I AM ALLOWED to ask a question be it cynical or snide- I am allowed.
I wrote what I felt- and I'm stickin with it. Here's your smiley.
David, I sent mine in a couple of months back to you and none of them upgraded until i cracked them out and resubmitted them and 60% of them so far have upgraded.
<< This kind of action is the reason PCGS will remain the number one grading service in the hobby. Kudos. >> Agree,And cannot believe some of the responses Al
Here I am a Platinum member accustomed to looking at nothing but 66s and 67s and I'm scared to death to submit anything. I need to but just can't bring myself to do so. See for yourselves. Click the sig.
Lotta good all these coins are doing just sitting here instead of being graded by the company I chose to spend my money with.
What's interested is that the "error" (on my part or the grader) is in both directions. This means that one of us will sometimes grade above or below the "real" grade.
I've seen this effect several times and I have no concrete explanation but my theory is that PCGS graders have different standards and your grade depends heavily on who picks up your coin.
I am willing to live with this effect. I don't like it but I can understand it.
The problem that some of us have seen in recent months was that we were seeing a shift in mean. Whereas I could receive an average grade of 64.5 for a submission I expected as 65. Now we were seeing average grades of 64 or 63. Interestingly, it appears that the deviation of "error" also increased. By this I mean that I was still getting the odd overgraded coin mixed in with a bunch of (what I believed to be) undergraded coin.
My theory for this effect is that new graders were brought in who had tougher standards and that coins which did not go through them were still sometimes overgraded. Coins which the new graders saw were often undergraded. I have no proof for this theory.
I'm hoping that now that we've gotten the attention of PCGS and the issue has been addressed, that a review of the grading standards will take place and that the deviation will get corrected.
We all want the same thing: consistency which leads to trust.
I do believe that the following quote, posted by a fellow forum member, somehow slipped under the radar and not enough people caught it or understand the significance thereof.
<< <i>David, I sent mine in a couple of months back to you and none of them upgraded until i cracked them out and resubmitted them and 60% of them so far have upgraded. >>
That statement is VERY interesting and leads to some serious unanswered questions. Just HOW can this be?
<< <i>I do believe that the following quote, posted by a fellow forum member, somehow slipped under the radar and not enough people caught it or understand the significance thereof.
<< <i>David, I sent mine in a couple of months back to you and none of them upgraded until i cracked them out and resubmitted them and 60% of them so far have upgraded. >>
That statement is VERY interesting and leads to some serious unanswered questions. Just HOW can this be? >>
Why so? When you send coins in for grading or regrading, as the case may be, what you're doing is paying for a professional's opinion, and that's what they give you on any given/specific day. If you send the coins in again, on a different day, their opinion might be different. And they might even be different yet again on another day.
In the legal or medical proffesion getting 2nd and 3rd opinions is a common practice. One thing about experts that's for sure -- they usually agree on some things but definitely disagree on others. Moreover, the same proffessional in any other profession might give you a different opinion on any given day you ask him or her.
If a person sent in coins for regrading and they came back the same grade, on that day the professionals pronounced an opinion that was identical to their previous one. If the person resubmitted the coins and some came back a different grade, then on that day the professionals had a differing opinion. Seems kind of simple.
<< <i>I do believe that the following quote, posted by a fellow forum member, somehow slipped under the radar and not enough people caught it or understand the significance thereof.
<< <i>David, I sent mine in a couple of months back to you and none of them upgraded until i cracked them out and resubmitted them and 60% of them so far have upgraded. >>
That statement is VERY interesting and leads to some serious unanswered questions. Just HOW can this be? >>
I'm not sure if people don't understand the significance of that statement. I think it helps explain why HRH may not be answering this. There isn't an answer. They should just add a disclaimer that "The opinion of the graders can and will change from day to day. The grade given can vary by as much as + or - 4 steps on any given day."
Yes, it is simple. It is all about the M O N E Y !
Steve >>
That's a fairly sensational statement there, but c'mon now you don't really believe that, do you?
Just go look at the results of the grading shootout. Jeff and Andy are pretty good graders, yet even they had a difference of opinion on a good number of coins. Had they been grading your coin (and Andy used to), you would have had different results on some coins. And on any given day even their own results might have been different
Coin grading is a matter of professional opinion, and when you send in your coins in for grading to any TPG that is what they give you. Like in any profession, a professional's opinion might be different on any give day, and they will also vary among a number of professionals from time to time.
The reality, perhaps, is a lot less sensational than your statement, but nonetheless it is the reality. Coming to terms with this reality will enable you to much better enjoy the wonderful hobby of numismatics.
<< <i> By this I mean that I was still getting the odd overgraded coin mixed in with a bunch of (what I believed to be) undergraded coin.
My theory for this effect is that new graders were brought in who had tougher standards and that coins which did not go through them were still sometimes overgraded.... >>
My theory is they have to throw in at least 1 good one to keep you coming back for more.
A. Review the coin*** 6-7 seconds per coin.... B. Compare his grade to that on the slab and that of the submitter***** believe the grader C. Write a response on each coin*** response is grader was right.... D. Where appropriate, direct a change in the coins grade**** no change- the grade stands
I don't think your comments are very funny! I did not even see a smilely face. If you have some constructive criticism, that's fine, but I think you crossed the line and need to re-think before you type.
Cointime- I think morganhunter2's comments were very funny...... sounds like you've been drinking a little too much koolaid recently.....
My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
Comments
Russ, NCNE
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>I am stil waiting for all those that complain about PCGS grading to put their money where their mouth is and participate in the World Series of Grading... >>
I am still waiting for PCGS to put something other than Morgans in the WSOG.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i><< I am stil waiting for all those that complain about PCGS grading to put their money where their mouth is and participate in the World Series of Grading... >>
Unless they think it will be a waste of time since they feel that David Hall will be less than totally unbiased. >>
David Hall's being biased or unbiased has nothing to do with the World Series of Grading.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i><< I am stil waiting for all those that complain about PCGS grading to put their money where their mouth is and participate in the World Series of Grading... >>
Unless they think it will be a waste of time since they feel that David Hall will be less than totally unbiased. >>
David Hall's being biased or unbiased has nothing to do with the World Series of Grading.
Russ, NCNE >>
You are correct of course. I misread the statement I was commenting on. I thought he was refering to putting their money where their mouth is for the presidential review. Now that I reread the statement I find myself in agreement and editted my comment to reflect this. Sorry for the confusion.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I have never submitted a coin to PCGS but Have about a dozen waiting in the wings.
I'm small time as it goes but am very impressed with the proactive way you are dealing with this issue.
When I am ready to submit, I am more likely to use PCGS.
Thanks for responding to the issue of perceived tightened grading
standards for modern coins with the offer to view 1-20 coins
via the Presidential Review process. I will send a group of coins
and see if I'm "on the ball" or "out to lunch."
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
The Ludlow Brilliant Collection (1938-64)
I don't think it's just moderns, though. Grading on gold is so brurtal, I'm terrified of sendinf anything in.
Russ, NCNE
Deserves another look.
I'm still waiting for PCGS graders to participate to see if they can grade their own coins.
roadrunner
<< <i> I am stil waiting for all those that complain about PCGS grading to put their money where their mouth is and participate in the World Series of Grading...
I'm still waiting for PCGS graders to participate to see if they can grade their own coins.
roadrunner >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Taking your time here on the boards, listening and doing something about it is just plain old great customer service in the purest form. Thank you for starting a great business and then doing what's needed to be done to keep it going. My hats off to you.
I have a submission in for modern regrade guarantee (grades can go up or down is ok with me). It was rec. on 05/25/05 and with the weekends and coin shows is not due out until 07/20/2005 "then 35 Business days and now online it shows 42 days
Regards,
Ken
My Washington Type B/C Set
<< <i>"then 35 Business days and now online it shows 42 days ". >>
It's actually calendar days. Business days applies only to guaranteed submissions, not modern or economy.
Russ, NCNE
You're right I stand corrected
Ken
My Washington Type B/C Set
<< <i>Well David HRH Hall- what was the consensus of your grading staff? Tight or just right?
I don't believe the average turn around time has passed to have a report this soon.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Some kind of update should have been posted. That is all I am saying.
He doesn't have other responsibilities and should jump at your beck and call?
Uhhh...yeah......REALITY CHECK please!
btw...he was busy doing a grade guarantee on my coin for awhile
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
A. Review the coin
B. Compare his grade to that on the slab and that of the submitter
C. Write a response on each coin
D. Where appropriate, direct a change in the coins grade
After this he must compile and analyse the results....
# Reviewed
# Upgraded
# Downgraded
Statistical significance based on sample size
Draw conclusions
Determine changes (if required)
Direct Implementation
Prepare report to the boards
<< <i>He said until 6/01- with a 20 coin max, I believe today is 6/6- that if you take into account that it takes 6 seconds to grade a coin- he could have viewed at least 2000 by now. He is the expert you know, and if the expert takes longer than 6 seconds a coin- then what are we to think of the graders on staff?
Some kind of update should have been posted. That is all I am saying. >>
He said he would accept coins until 6.01. He did not say he would post results on 6.01. His exact words were:
<< <i>I'll post facts and figures after June 1. >>
Russ, NCNE
A. Review the coin*** 6-7 seconds per coin....
B. Compare his grade to that on the slab and that of the submitter***** believe the grader
C. Write a response on each coin*** response is grader was right....
D. Where appropriate, direct a change in the coins grade**** no change- the grade stands
After this he must compile and analyse the results....
# Reviewed***#of coins X 6 seconds
# Upgraded**** no brainer......
# Downgraded***** ooops got 10 total- the boys slipped- no bonus for June.
Statistical significance based on sample size**** done in A,B,D
Draw conclusions***** done in C
Determine changes (if required)**** see #downgraded
Direct Implementation**** see #downgraded
Prepare report to the boards **** advised to read the forum notes....
All kidding aside- I am curious to know how many actually submitted.
I don't think your comments are very funny! I did not even see a smilely face. If you have some constructive criticism, that's fine, but I think you crossed the line and need to re-think before you type.
My Washington Type B/C Set
-Daniel
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
Although you did not see a smiley
I wrote what I felt- and I'm stickin with it.
Here's your smiley.
Agree,And cannot believe some of the responses
Al
Lotta good all these coins are doing just sitting here instead of being graded by the company I chose to spend my money with.
submitters have all stepped forward, en masse, and have stated that something has definitely changed. If it were a simple case
of a random few it COULD BE that they (we) are just over-reacting but this many simply cannot be wrong or ignored. Someone
knows.
63 - expected 64
64 - expected 65
66 - expected 65
What's interested is that the "error" (on my part or the grader) is in both
directions. This means that one of us will sometimes grade above or below
the "real" grade.
I've seen this effect several times and I have no concrete explanation but
my theory is that PCGS graders have different standards and your grade
depends heavily on who picks up your coin.
I am willing to live with this effect. I don't like it but I can understand it.
The problem that some of us have seen in recent months was that we were
seeing a shift in mean. Whereas I could receive an average grade of 64.5
for a submission I expected as 65. Now we were seeing average grades
of 64 or 63. Interestingly, it appears that the deviation of "error" also
increased. By this I mean that I was still getting the odd overgraded coin
mixed in with a bunch of (what I believed to be) undergraded coin.
My theory for this effect is that new graders were brought in who had
tougher standards and that coins which did not go through them were
still sometimes overgraded. Coins which the new graders saw were often
undergraded. I have no proof for this theory.
I'm hoping that now that we've gotten the attention of PCGS and the issue
has been addressed, that a review of the grading standards will take place
and that the deviation will get corrected.
We all want the same thing: consistency which leads to trust.
Please check out my eBay auctions!
My WLH Short Set Registry Collection
<< <i>David, I sent mine in a couple of months back to you and none of them upgraded until i cracked them out and resubmitted them and 60% of them so far have upgraded. >>
That statement is VERY interesting and leads to some serious unanswered questions. Just HOW can this be?
<< <i>I do believe that the following quote, posted by a fellow forum member, somehow slipped under the radar and not enough people caught it or understand the significance thereof.
<< <i>David, I sent mine in a couple of months back to you and none of them upgraded until i cracked them out and resubmitted them and 60% of them so far have upgraded. >>
That statement is VERY interesting and leads to some serious unanswered questions. Just HOW can this be?
Why so? When you send coins in for grading or regrading, as the case may be, what you're doing is paying for a professional's opinion, and that's what they give you on any given/specific day. If you send the coins in again, on a different day, their opinion might be different. And they might even be different yet again on another day.
In the legal or medical proffesion getting 2nd and 3rd opinions is a common practice. One thing about experts that's for sure -- they usually agree on some things but definitely disagree on others. Moreover, the same proffessional in any other profession might give you a different opinion on any given day you ask him or her.
If a person sent in coins for regrading and they came back the same grade, on that day the professionals pronounced an opinion that was identical to their previous one. If the person resubmitted the coins and some came back a different grade, then on that day the professionals had a differing opinion. Seems kind of simple.
<< <i> Seems kind of simple. >>
Yes, it is simple. It is all about the M O N E Y !
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>I do believe that the following quote, posted by a fellow forum member, somehow slipped under the radar and not enough people caught it or understand the significance thereof.
<< <i>David, I sent mine in a couple of months back to you and none of them upgraded until i cracked them out and resubmitted them and 60% of them so far have upgraded. >>
That statement is VERY interesting and leads to some serious unanswered questions. Just HOW can this be?
I'm not sure if people don't understand the significance of that statement. I think it helps explain why HRH may not be answering this. There isn't an answer. They should just add a disclaimer that "The opinion of the graders can and will change from day to day. The grade given can vary by as much as + or - 4 steps on any given day."
<< <i>
<< <i> Seems kind of simple. >>
Yes, it is simple. It is all about the M O N E Y !
Steve
That's a fairly sensational statement there, but c'mon now you don't really believe that, do you?
Just go look at the results of the grading shootout. Jeff and Andy are pretty good graders, yet even they had a difference of opinion on a good number of coins. Had they been grading your coin (and Andy used to), you would have had different results on some coins. And on any given day even their own results might have been different
Coin grading is a matter of professional opinion, and when you send in your coins in for grading to any TPG that is what they give you. Like in any profession, a professional's opinion might be different on any give day, and they will also vary among a number of professionals from time to time.
The reality, perhaps, is a lot less sensational than your statement, but nonetheless it is the reality. Coming to terms with this reality will enable you to much better enjoy the wonderful hobby of numismatics.
<< <i>
By this I mean that I was still getting the odd overgraded coin
mixed in with a bunch of (what I believed to be) undergraded coin.
My theory for this effect is that new graders were brought in who had
tougher standards and that coins which did not go through them were
still sometimes overgraded.... >>
My theory is they have to throw in at least 1 good one to keep you coming back for more.
Editted my stupid html
We are waiting for David Hall to make the next pronouncement even though everyone thinks they are really is up to date on the happenings of PCGS.
Sometimes the mystery of it all makes things more interesting.
Fortunately for David Hall, he doesn't have to sit before members of Congress and speak in a manner no one understands!
B. Compare his grade to that on the slab and that of the submitter***** believe the grader
C. Write a response on each coin*** response is grader was right....
D. Where appropriate, direct a change in the coins grade**** no change- the grade stands
I don't think your comments are very funny! I did not even see a smilely face. If you have some constructive criticism, that's fine, but I think you crossed the line and need to re-think before you type.
Cointime- I think morganhunter2's comments were very funny...... sounds like you've been drinking a little too much koolaid recently.....
I think there is a very simple explanation on any given day you may get graders A,B and C on another day D,E and F then the next day
A,C and F. If you hit the right combination it may make the difference b/w a 67 vrs a 66. If you get real unlucky you could end up
with a combination that yeilds a 65. I would imagine 95% of the time the combination does not matter meaning they all come up
with the same answer in this case a 66. However 5% of the time they will be off by a point. I suspect they will grade about 2.5 % too high
and 2.5% too low. Your job is to find the 2.5% that are graded too low based on random graders.
I think Craig has a valid point here.