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OK...Let's see if PCGS has tightened up.

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  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 23,809 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I am stil waiting for all those that complain about PCGS grading to put their money where their mouth is and participate in the World Series of Grading...

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • clackamasclackamas Posts: 5,615


    << <i>I am stil waiting for all those that complain about PCGS grading to put their money where their mouth is and participate in the World Series of Grading... >>



    I am still waiting for PCGS to put something other than Morgans in the WSOG.
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,798 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 23,809 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There are more than Morgans...

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭


    << <i><< I am stil waiting for all those that complain about PCGS grading to put their money where their mouth is and participate in the World Series of Grading... >>

    Unless they think it will be a waste of time since they feel that David Hall will be less than totally unbiased. >>



    David Hall's being biased or unbiased has nothing to do with the World Series of Grading.

    Russ, NCNE
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,798 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i><< I am stil waiting for all those that complain about PCGS grading to put their money where their mouth is and participate in the World Series of Grading... >>

    Unless they think it will be a waste of time since they feel that David Hall will be less than totally unbiased. >>



    David Hall's being biased or unbiased has nothing to do with the World Series of Grading.

    Russ, NCNE >>



    You are correct of course. I misread the statement I was commenting on. I thought he was refering to putting their money where their mouth is for the presidential review. Now that I reread the statement I find myself in agreement and editted my comment to reflect this. Sorry for the confusion.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • RickMilauskasRickMilauskas Posts: 1,985 ✭✭✭
    David,

    I have never submitted a coin to PCGS but Have about a dozen waiting in the wings.

    I'm small time as it goes but am very impressed with the proactive way you are dealing with this issue.

    When I am ready to submit, I am more likely to use PCGS.
  • streeterstreeter Posts: 4,312 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image
    Have a nice day
  • cupronikcupronik Posts: 773 ✭✭✭
    Hello David:

    Thanks for responding to the issue of perceived tightened grading
    standards for modern coins with the offer to view 1-20 coins
    via the Presidential Review process. I will send a group of coins
    and see if I'm "on the ball" or "out to lunch."
  • Well, it seems I missed the original post, and am responding late, BUT---I look forward to the results as I have some coins I would like to submit but have held off with all the rumors!!!
    RAD
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 23,809 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The WSOG test that I participated in had 10 Morgans which is roughly 25% of the coins in the test.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • RGLRGL Posts: 3,784
    I've been sitting on a submission, but it will be on its way knowing David will eyeball any I think were misjudged. Very conscientious and kind of you to make the offer, David.
  • gyocomgdgyocomgd Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭
    Extaordinary. Wish my cell phone service was this good.
    I don't think it's just moderns, though. Grading on gold is so brurtal, I'm terrified of sendinf anything in.
    image
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭
    Bump to make sure as many people as possible have a chance to participate.

    Russ, NCNE
  • dunerlawdunerlaw Posts: 387 ✭✭
    Good deal from David Hall.
    Deserves another look.
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,313 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I am stil waiting for all those that complain about PCGS grading to put their money where their mouth is and participate in the World Series of Grading...

    I'm still waiting for PCGS graders to participate to see if they can grade their own coins.

    roadrunner
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,798 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i> I am stil waiting for all those that complain about PCGS grading to put their money where their mouth is and participate in the World Series of Grading...

    I'm still waiting for PCGS graders to participate to see if they can grade their own coins.

    roadrunner >>

    image

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • cointimecointime Posts: 2,014 ✭✭✭✭✭
    HRH,

    Taking your time here on the boards, listening and doing something about it is just plain old great customer service in the purest form. Thank you for starting a great business and then doing what's needed to be done to keep it going. My hats off to you.


    I have a submission in for modern regrade guarantee (grades can go up or down is ok with me). It was rec. on 05/25/05 and with the weekends and coin shows is not due out until 07/20/2005 "then 35 Business days and now online it shows 42 days image". I don't care if it takes a little longer as long as they are seriously looked at and not just pushed through to get the backlog down. Part of what I sent in is a 1982 no P roosie in a 67 green labelled holder that with the scratches on the cheek should be in a 65 holder. Also 3 Clad Ikes all 1976D type II in MS66, in which one I made (solid grade), two purchased and one of which I believe to be an upgrade candidate. I feel positive that what ever the out come, your folks will do the right thing and I'll still love my coins image
    Regards,
    Ken
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭


    << <i>"then 35 Business days and now online it shows 42 days ". >>



    It's actually calendar days. Business days applies only to guaranteed submissions, not modern or economy.

    Russ, NCNE
  • cointimecointime Posts: 2,014 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Russ,

    You're right I stand corrected image I wont go edit my post image
    Ken
  • Well David HRH Hall- what was the consensus of your grading staff? Tight or just right?


    image

  • leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,484 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Well David HRH Hall- what was the consensus of your grading staff? Tight or just right?


    image >>



    I don't believe the average turn around time has passed to have a report this soon.

    Leo

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

  • He said until 6/01- with a 20 coin max, I believe today is 6/6- that if you take into account that it takes 6 seconds to grade a coin- he could have viewed at least 2000 by now. He is the expert you know, and if the expert takes longer than 6 seconds a coin- then what are we to think of the graders on staff?

    Some kind of update should have been posted. That is all I am saying.
  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,556 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So, he doesn't have other work? He didn't go to any shows?
    He doesn't have other responsibilities and should jump at your beck and call?

    Uhhh...yeah......REALITY CHECK please!


    btw...he was busy doing a grade guarantee on my coin for awhile image

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • itsnotjustmeitsnotjustme Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭
    A bit optimistic to expect him to be done. For each coin he must

    A. Review the coin
    B. Compare his grade to that on the slab and that of the submitter
    C. Write a response on each coin
    D. Where appropriate, direct a change in the coins grade

    After this he must compile and analyse the results....

    # Reviewed
    # Upgraded
    # Downgraded
    Statistical significance based on sample size
    Draw conclusions
    Determine changes (if required)
    Direct Implementation
    Prepare report to the boards
    Give Blood (Red Bags) & Platelets (Yellow Bags)!
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭


    << <i>He said until 6/01- with a 20 coin max, I believe today is 6/6- that if you take into account that it takes 6 seconds to grade a coin- he could have viewed at least 2000 by now. He is the expert you know, and if the expert takes longer than 6 seconds a coin- then what are we to think of the graders on staff?

    Some kind of update should have been posted. That is all I am saying. >>



    He said he would accept coins until 6.01. He did not say he would post results on 6.01. His exact words were:



    << <i>I'll post facts and figures after June 1. >>



    Russ, NCNE

  • A. Review the coin*** 6-7 seconds per coin....
    B. Compare his grade to that on the slab and that of the submitter***** believe the grader
    C. Write a response on each coin*** response is grader was right....
    D. Where appropriate, direct a change in the coins grade**** no change- the grade stands

    After this he must compile and analyse the results....

    # Reviewed***#of coins X 6 seconds
    # Upgraded**** no brainer......
    # Downgraded***** ooops got 10 total- the boys slipped- no bonus for June.
    Statistical significance based on sample size**** done in A,B,D
    Draw conclusions***** done in C
    Determine changes (if required)**** see #downgraded
    Direct Implementation**** see #downgraded
    Prepare report to the boards **** advised to read the forum notes....

    All kidding aside- I am curious to know how many actually submitted.



  • cointimecointime Posts: 2,014 ✭✭✭✭✭
    MORGANHUNTER2

    I don't think your comments are very funny! I did not even see a smilely face. If you have some constructive criticism, that's fine, but I think you crossed the line and need to re-think before you type.
  • DD Posts: 1,997 ✭✭✭
    I'd like to see anyone on these forums accurately grade any coin handed to them in six seconds. Let alone hundreds in one day.

    -Daniel
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

    -Aristotle

    Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.

    -Horace
  • Mr. House-

    Although you did not see a smiley image, it was there- I have an opinion- just like each an everyone here- you don't have to accept what I say- that is YOUR choice, but to infer that I am ridiculing someone- I'm not- I asked a specific- this is a logical form of what the original post was many weeks ago- to date- no updates or response- just more posts to this thread. I'm sure Mr. Hall has had plenty of disgruntled collectors over the last 19 years- and odds are he will have many more- this is part of the business- and this is where in life I AM ALLOWED to ask a question be it cynical or snide- I am allowed.

    I wrote what I felt- and I'm stickin with it.
    Here's your smiley.

    image

  • morgannut2morgannut2 Posts: 4,293
    Seems like a pretty fair offer. Some older coins next?
    morgannut2
  • DatentypeDatentype Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭
    David, I sent mine in a couple of months back to you and none of them upgraded until i cracked them out and resubmitted them and 60% of them so far have upgraded.
  • gripgrip Posts: 9,962 ✭✭✭✭✭
    << This kind of action is the reason PCGS will remain the number one grading service in the hobby. Kudos. >>
    Agree,And cannot believe some of the responsesimage
    Al
  • BoomBoom Posts: 10,165
    Here I am a Platinum member accustomed to looking at nothing but 66s and 67s and I'm scared to death to submit anything. I need to but just can't bring myself to do so. See for yourselves. Click the sig.

    Lotta good all these coins are doing just sitting here instead of being graded by the company I chose to spend my money with.
  • 6/09/05- any response to the tightness of the house?
  • BoomBoom Posts: 10,165
    Regardless of what the official statement is fron the top brass, the fact remains that way too many seasoned collectors/

    submitters have all stepped forward, en masse, and have stated that something has definitely changed. If it were a simple case

    of a random few it COULD BE that they (we) are just over-reacting but this many simply cannot be wrong or ignored. Someone

    knows.

  • BigGreekBigGreek Posts: 1,090
    My last submission had the following grades for 3 Walkers:

    63 - expected 64
    64 - expected 65
    66 - expected 65

    What's interested is that the "error" (on my part or the grader) is in both
    directions. This means that one of us will sometimes grade above or below
    the "real" grade.

    I've seen this effect several times and I have no concrete explanation but
    my theory is that PCGS graders have different standards and your grade
    depends heavily on who picks up your coin.

    I am willing to live with this effect. I don't like it but I can understand it.

    The problem that some of us have seen in recent months was that we were
    seeing a shift in mean. Whereas I could receive an average grade of 64.5
    for a submission I expected as 65. Now we were seeing average grades
    of 64 or 63. Interestingly, it appears that the deviation of "error" also
    increased. By this I mean that I was still getting the odd overgraded coin
    mixed in with a bunch of (what I believed to be) undergraded coin.

    My theory for this effect is that new graders were brought in who had
    tougher standards and that coins which did not go through them were
    still sometimes overgraded. Coins which the new graders saw were often
    undergraded. I have no proof for this theory.

    I'm hoping that now that we've gotten the attention of PCGS and the issue
    has been addressed, that a review of the grading standards will take place
    and that the deviation will get corrected.

    We all want the same thing: consistency which leads to trust.




    image
    Please check out my eBay auctions!
    My WLH Short Set Registry Collection
  • itsnotjustmeitsnotjustme Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭
    Any results yet?
    Give Blood (Red Bags) & Platelets (Yellow Bags)!
  • itsnotjustmeitsnotjustme Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭
    ttt
    Give Blood (Red Bags) & Platelets (Yellow Bags)!
  • BoomBoom Posts: 10,165
    I do believe that the following quote, posted by a fellow forum member, somehow slipped under the radar and not enough people caught it or understand the significance thereof.




    << <i>David, I sent mine in a couple of months back to you and none of them upgraded until i cracked them out and resubmitted them and 60% of them so far have upgraded. >>




    That statement is VERY interesting and leads to some serious unanswered questions. Just HOW can this be? image
  • mercurydimeguymercurydimeguy Posts: 4,625 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I do believe that the following quote, posted by a fellow forum member, somehow slipped under the radar and not enough people caught it or understand the significance thereof.




    << <i>David, I sent mine in a couple of months back to you and none of them upgraded until i cracked them out and resubmitted them and 60% of them so far have upgraded. >>




    That statement is VERY interesting and leads to some serious unanswered questions. Just HOW can this be? image >>



    Why so? When you send coins in for grading or regrading, as the case may be, what you're doing is paying for a professional's opinion, and that's what they give you on any given/specific day. If you send the coins in again, on a different day, their opinion might be different. And they might even be different yet again on another day.

    In the legal or medical proffesion getting 2nd and 3rd opinions is a common practice. One thing about experts that's for sure -- they usually agree on some things but definitely disagree on others. Moreover, the same proffessional in any other profession might give you a different opinion on any given day you ask him or her.

    If a person sent in coins for regrading and they came back the same grade, on that day the professionals pronounced an opinion that was identical to their previous one. If the person resubmitted the coins and some came back a different grade, then on that day the professionals had a differing opinion. Seems kind of simple.
  • SteveSteve Posts: 3,312 ✭✭✭


    << <i> Seems kind of simple. >>



    Yes, it is simple. It is all about the M O N E Y !

    Steveimage
  • tmot99tmot99 Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I do believe that the following quote, posted by a fellow forum member, somehow slipped under the radar and not enough people caught it or understand the significance thereof.




    << <i>David, I sent mine in a couple of months back to you and none of them upgraded until i cracked them out and resubmitted them and 60% of them so far have upgraded. >>




    That statement is VERY interesting and leads to some serious unanswered questions. Just HOW can this be? image >>




    I'm not sure if people don't understand the significance of that statement. I think it helps explain why HRH may not be answering this. There isn't an answer. They should just add a disclaimer that "The opinion of the graders can and will change from day to day. The grade given can vary by as much as + or - 4 steps on any given day."image
  • mercurydimeguymercurydimeguy Posts: 4,625 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i> Seems kind of simple. >>



    Yes, it is simple. It is all about the M O N E Y !

    Steveimage >>



    That's a fairly sensational statement there, but c'mon now you don't really believe that, do you?

    Just go look at the results of the grading shootout. Jeff and Andy are pretty good graders, yet even they had a difference of opinion on a good number of coins. Had they been grading your coin (and Andy used to), you would have had different results on some coins. And on any given day even their own results might have been different

    Coin grading is a matter of professional opinion, and when you send in your coins in for grading to any TPG that is what they give you. Like in any profession, a professional's opinion might be different on any give day, and they will also vary among a number of professionals from time to time.

    The reality, perhaps, is a lot less sensational than your statement, but nonetheless it is the reality. Coming to terms with this reality will enable you to much better enjoy the wonderful hobby of numismatics.
  • joefrojoefro Posts: 1,872 ✭✭


    << <i>
    By this I mean that I was still getting the odd overgraded coin
    mixed in with a bunch of (what I believed to be) undergraded coin.

    My theory for this effect is that new graders were brought in who had
    tougher standards and that coins which did not go through them were
    still sometimes overgraded.... >>



    My theory is they have to throw in at least 1 good one to keep you coming back for more. image

    Editted my stupid html
    Lincoln Cent & Libertad Collector
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 12,133 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hmmm, this is almost becoming a scenario similar to watching the Federal Reserve in action. image

    We are waiting for David Hall to make the next pronouncement even though everyone thinks they are really is up to date on the happenings of PCGS.

    Sometimes the mystery of it all makes things more interesting.

    Fortunately for David Hall, he doesn't have to sit before members of Congress and speak in a manner no one understands! image
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • MyqqyMyqqy Posts: 9,777
    A. Review the coin*** 6-7 seconds per coin....
    B. Compare his grade to that on the slab and that of the submitter***** believe the grader
    C. Write a response on each coin*** response is grader was right....
    D. Where appropriate, direct a change in the coins grade**** no change- the grade stands

    I don't think your comments are very funny! I did not even see a smilely face. If you have some constructive criticism, that's fine, but I think you crossed the line and need to re-think before you type.

    Cointime- I think morganhunter2's comments were very funny...... sounds like you've been drinking a little too much koolaid recently.....
    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
  • Please don't PM me due to confusion with Morganhunter2---I think DH is just great!!image
    morgannut2
  • RickMilauskasRickMilauskas Posts: 1,985 ✭✭✭

    I think there is a very simple explanation on any given day you may get graders A,B and C on another day D,E and F then the next day

    A,C and F. If you hit the right combination it may make the difference b/w a 67 vrs a 66. If you get real unlucky you could end up

    with a combination that yeilds a 65. I would imagine 95% of the time the combination does not matter meaning they all come up

    with the same answer in this case a 66. However 5% of the time they will be off by a point. I suspect they will grade about 2.5 % too high

    and 2.5% too low. Your job is to find the 2.5% that are graded too low based on random graders.


    I think Craig has a valid point here.

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