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OK...Let's see if PCGS has tightened up.

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  • Come on! The suspense is killing us!
    "Wars are really ugly! They're dirty
    and they're cold.
    I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
    Mary






    Best Franklin Website
  • itsnotjustmeitsnotjustme Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭
    ttt
    Give Blood (Red Bags) & Platelets (Yellow Bags)!
  • itsnotjustmeitsnotjustme Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭
    ttt

    We are waiting.....
    Give Blood (Red Bags) & Platelets (Yellow Bags)!
  • ttt.............
    Nick
  • I had about 12 coins in for the free review and at least one upgraded as I saw it change in my reg set. The coins were sent back to me a few weeks ago but I am out of state for the fall and won't see them or the comments about them until Dec.


  • << <i>Hi Everybody,

    Many have said PCGS has tightened its grading standards for 20th century issues. I have not seen any evidence of this. However, I'm willing to give it a closer look on your behalf.

    For the next weeks, i.e. until June 1, I'll do a free Presidential Review for up to twenty coins. The coins have to be 1934 to date and they have to be graded between 5-17 and 6-1-05. Just call customer service and refer them to this post. I'll send everyone who does this a brief note on each coin and I'll post facts and figures after June 1. I'll give each coin an honest look.

    Thanks,

    David Hall

    >>



    A very responsible course of action, indeed.

    Now, how about a definitive ststement on PCGS's responsibility if a slabbed coin turns out to be non-authentic. The so-called guarantee (s/b guaranty) is illusory at best.
  • Are we EVER going to hear the results? Its been almost 3 months. Maybe this thread is just supposed to quietly die.....
  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Now, how about a definitive ststement on PCGS's responsibility if a slabbed coin turns out to be non-authentic. The so-called guarantee (s/b guaranty) is illusory at best. >>

    MBT, I think you're incorrect on both counts.

    I have heard of a small number of non-authentic coins being discovered in PCGS holders over the years and in each case, PCGS made good on what you call an "illusory" guarantee. On the other hand, I have never heard of PCGS not making good on a counterfeit coin - if you have proof to the contrary, please share it with us here or stop making such false accusations/claims.

    Regarding the use of "guaranty" or "guarantee" - look below and you should see that the correct word ("guarantee") is being used.

    guaranty - "a collateral agreement to answer for the debt of another in case that person defaults"

    guarantee - " a written assurance that some product or service will be provided or will meet certain specifications"




  • << <i>Are we EVER going to hear the results? Its been almost 3 months. Maybe this thread is just supposed to quietly die..... >>




    Shhhhhh...............
  • ldhairldhair Posts: 7,340 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Now, how about a definitive ststement on PCGS's responsibility if a slabbed coin turns out to be non-authentic. The so-called guarantee (s/b guaranty) is illusory at best. >>


    Seriously, majorbigtime...do you really think PCGS wouldn't step up to the plate and take care of a bad coin?
    I don't feel many folks worry that this would ever be a problem.image
    Larry

  • ttt
    The glass is half full!
    image
  • tmot99tmot99 Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭
    I find it interesting that the Q&A forum has been, for the most part, quiet since June 1 when this whole thing was to come to an end. There has only been a week or two that there has been a "full" Q&A.
  • ........ah yes ; Mr. hall said he wouldn't just go thru the motions - he was serious about this sheet :

    hey home run : it's frealkin' 90 days after you said you would let us know. play ball !!!!


  • << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>Hi Everybody,

    Many have said PCGS has tightened its grading standards for 20th century issues. I have not seen any evidence of this. However, I'm willing to give it a closer look on your behalf.

    For the next weeks, i.e. until June 1, I'll do a free Presidential Review for up to twenty coins. The coins have to be 1934 to date and they have to be graded between 5-17 and 6-1-05. Just call customer service and refer them to this post. I'll send everyone who does this a brief note on each coin and I'll post facts and figures after June 1. I'll give each coin an honest look.

    Thanks,

    David Hall

    >>





    A very responsible course of action, indeed.

    Now, how about a definitive ststement on PCGS's responsibility if a slabbed coin turns out to be non-authentic. The so-called guarantee (s/b guaranty) is illusory at best. >>




    MBT you keep harping on a non issue. Either show us proof that someone has been neglected or zip the lips. PLEASE!! >>





    It may be a non-issue to you, but I beleive everybody that owns PCGS coins should be entitled to a definitive statement on recourse if a slabbed coin proves to be "bad"!


  • << <i>

    << <i>Now, how about a definitive ststement on PCGS's responsibility if a slabbed coin turns out to be non-authentic. The so-called guarantee (s/b guaranty) is illusory at best. >>

    MBT, I think you're incorrect on both counts.

    Iegarding the use of "guaranty" or "guarantee" - look below and you should see that the correct word ("guarantee") is being used.

    guaranty - "a collateral agreement to answer for the debt of another in case that person defaults"

    guarantee - " a written assurance that some product or service will be provided or will meet certain specifications" >>



    Guaranty is the noun!
  • jpkinlajpkinla Posts: 822 ✭✭✭
    I have a few coins which I believe are graded "tightly". Is the offer to submit coins for your review still available? I doubt I have 20 but I bet I have 10.....
  • BoomBoom Posts: 10,165
    The more I read Mercurydimeguy's post(s), although totally logical and quite understandable, the more I find his position UNACCEPTABLE HERE BECAUSE PCGS is supposed to be THE pre-eminent grading service on the face of the planet.

    Following his logic, bearing in mind that one point can make HUGE differences ( and I do mean HUGE DIFFERENCES) in premium, the less his argument becomes "acceptable", from that perspective. People want to be able to submit and to buy WITH CONFIDENCE !

    Inconsistancies would make buyers most wary of forking over BIG BUCKS for Top Pop coins only to find that if sent back in (cracked out for some reason) in an attempt to obtain yet a HIGHER GRADE, that their (the graders') opinions were too lofty to begin with and on such and such a day their opinions have once again changed and therefore the coin(s) grade lower. Yes, they (the PCGS Graders) are human beings BUT they are supposed to be THE BEST OF THE BEST. If a coin is a 67 today it should be a 67 everytime it is graded. Granted the "line" (Grading curve) does move often BUT either said coin has "67 properties" or it does not. Maybe the "Curve" itself should cease to be and therefore help consistancy "to be."

    I STILL see computerized grading in the very near future with humans being finalizers for aesthetics. This is the ONLY way to obtain consistancy. PERIOD.

    My position can best be summed up in one word..."Consistancy". If this company has been dubbed the undiputed king of tpg services, consistancy and attention to detail MUST be a given. If they are truly #1 and as good as we and the buying public believe them to be, they MUST be consistant.

    In this particular instance there were simply way too many seasoned collectors all complaining at the same time. If there were but a few, MAYBE they could be wrong but again, Way too many stepped forward after Russ made his statement which tells me that something was definitely going on at that time. For the record, I applaud Mr. Hall for taking on such a monumental task.....so much so that I did not even bother to send any in and add to his self imposed workload.

    With him taking this long it also tells ME that he is taking his time and conducting a serious internal investigation. image Of course, all of this is just MHO, for the purpose of debate and the desire to continue to learn even after all these years. When we stop learning or wanting to learn, we're Toast and have begun to die.
  • krankykranky Posts: 8,709 ✭✭✭


    << <i> People want to be able to submit and to buy WITH CONFIDENCE !

    Inconsistancies would make buyers most wary of forking over BIG BUCKS for Top Pop coins only to find that if sent back in (cracked out for some reason) in an attempt to obtain yet a HIGHER GRADE, that their (the graders') opinions were too lofty to begin with and on such and such a day their opinions have once again changed and therefore the coin(s) grade lower. Yes, they (the PCGS Graders) are human beings BUT they are supposed to be THE BEST OF THE BEST. If a coin is a 67 today it should be a 67 everytime it is graded. Granted the "line" (Grading curve) does move often BUT either said coin has "67 properties" or it does not. Maybe the "Curve" itself should cease to be and therefore help consistancy "to be."
    >>



    Isn't this argument an inconsistency on its own? Sounds as though you are saying people should be able to take a shot at upgrades without any risk of a downgrade.

    And people indeed can buy with confidence. The coin will be authentic, unaltered, and within a point of the slabbed grade 99.9% of the time. Now, whether people choose to pay 10x more money for one point higher on the label, that's up to them. It's not the TPG's doing. They brought the risk on themselves, fully knowing what can happen if they crack the coin out.

    And if they crack one out and it downgrades, then try it again. 25% of all MS coins are liners.

    New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.

  • mercurydimeguymercurydimeguy Posts: 4,625 ✭✭✭✭

    image
  • This thread is nothing but BS. What, did PCGS do a flip flop-again?

    PCGS needs to tighten up on its 20th Century and a lot of other areas. Anyone see any of the"stuff" thats out there?

    How many Walkers must we see with hits in the the fields that are graded MS65? Or, how many purely overgraded Saints must we see?

    Hall trying to "spin" issues for positive responses here just doesn't mean anything to me.

    All of the coins in my collection were selected based on the coin, not the grade on the plastic.



  • the issue here is Mr. Halls credability - he said he would respond ; and he has not .
    And by the way , i guess if your sitting on the #1 set of Washington Quarters , having submitted some coins several times to get the correct grade, you could give a hoot about tight or loosey !
  • MyqqyMyqqy Posts: 9,777
    It may be a non-issue to you, but I beleive everybody that owns PCGS coins should be entitled to a definitive statement on recourse if a slabbed coin proves to be "bad"!

    image

    mbt- nobody is very interested in your off topic rambles- take them elsewhere!! image
    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
  • BearBear Posts: 18,953 ✭✭✭
    When it comes to whether it is tighter or looser

    the answer is yes. Somewhat more puckered

    then tight. More goosey then loosey.
    There once was a place called
    Camelotimage


  • << <i>It may be a non-issue to you, but I beleive everybody that owns PCGS coins should be entitled to a definitive statement on recourse if a slabbed coin proves to be "bad"!

    image

    mbt- nobody is very interested in your off topic rambles- take them elsewhere!! image >>








    You must be kidding--people can't be that stupid. Do you check the guaranty when you buy an automoblie? Don't you care about the proctection accorded to you when you buy a PCGS coin?

    As I said, I beleive everybody that owns PCGS coins should be entitled to a definitive statement on recourse if a slabbed coin proves to be "bad.

    Ask yourself, "why won't PCGS respond?"
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,799 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Actions speak louder than words. PCGS has ALWAYS stood behind their product.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • Steve27Steve27 Posts: 13,275 ✭✭✭
    Anyone know or hear anything new?
    "It's far easier to fight for principles, than to live up to them." Adlai Stevenson
  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    i know nothing knew, but i'm glad i didn't take HRH up on what's turning into a lame offer. frankly, if i'm reading/understanding the happenings of the offer correctly i can't believe some of the guys have allowed PCGS to hold their coins hostage. however, i do believe that PCGS would hold out as long as possible. not good, not good at all.
  • streeterstreeter Posts: 4,312 ✭✭✭✭✭
    MAJORBIGDOOFUS, you are a perpetual thorn. Your attempt to salt the well is really getting lame.
    Have a nice day
  • mercurydimeguymercurydimeguy Posts: 4,625 ✭✭✭✭

    If a TPG can be influenced by its customers to grade one way or another, it's probably not going to be a top-tier TPG for long.
  • cointimecointime Posts: 2,014 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have made my mind up in part after this last sub. One coin was under graded and another was marked as cleaned but was not. I have been with PCGS right after I signed on here in 2001. Two nights ago I joined CCG and will try NGC's grading. I am going to send them 3 raw coins and 2 cracked out from PCGS and go from there image
    Ken

    Just a side note: If you pull up this invoice you will see coin #2 did not even have a picture attached. I didn't call or say anything, but I think their service is lacking something. If you pay for a service you should get it the 1st time out. Enough said from me image



    LINE # CERT # COIN DATE DENOMINATION VARIETY COUNTRY GRADE
    1 22061957 1955-S 10C USA MS66
    2 22061958 1953-D 10C USA MS65FB
    3 22061959 1962 25C USA Cleaning
    4 22061960 1963-D 50C USA MS64FL
    5 22061961 1901 50C USA XF45

    Date Received: 08/31/2005
    Date Shipped: 09/23/2005

    Edited to add: The invoice# 3299505 and now after a month it has a picture. I got tired of checking after a couple weeks.
  • gripgrip Posts: 9,962 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think your right.And the key word is ,get it right the first time.I wonder if three graders realy
    do look at the coin before finalizing.
    Al
  • BearBear Posts: 18,953 ✭✭✭
    No TPG can please all the people all the time.

    Grading is part scientific and part judgement.

    Its amazing anyone is as consistant as the major TPG

    are. Its a tough job. I wonder how many of us could match

    let alone excell the PCGS Graders. I dont suck uo, I just call

    them as I see them.
    There once was a place called
    Camelotimage
  • nwcsnwcs Posts: 13,386 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I think your right.And the key word is ,get it right the first time.I wonder if three graders realy
    do look at the coin before finalizing.
    Al >>

    PCGS no longer has a finalizer. It's a majority rules situation. If the first two graders agree then that's it. If they do not, then a third looks. If two then agree then that is the grade. If not, then it gets discussed until consensus. The only think the "finalizer" does is make sure that the coin is in the holder correctly. Though they do make the occassional mistake. But then again, so does NGC.
  • Cmon....people quit posting to this thread....its supposed to quietly die image
  • Steve27Steve27 Posts: 13,275 ✭✭✭
    Who submitted coins under this offer?
    "It's far easier to fight for principles, than to live up to them." Adlai Stevenson
  • gripgrip Posts: 9,962 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Steve
    Good question!I was going to ask the same.Anyone,if so,did you get them back.
    Or do they still have them?
    Al
  • RonyahskiRonyahski Posts: 3,119 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Who submitted coins under this offer? >>



    I did, at least I thought so. I had three submissions in that I were hoping to be graded during the time period. None were. Then, I requested free grading coupons under their turnaround guarantee. After several weeks, emails, phone calls, etc., I finally got coupons on one of the submissions. They refused on the second. I asked customer service for the presidential review, per this post, on my submissions - nothing doing.

    I just realized, it's now been months, and I haven't submitted anything to PCGS since. Hmmm.
    Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
  • BlindedByEgoBlindedByEgo Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ttt
  • BoomBoom Posts: 10,165
    I don't understand this at all. I have purposely submitted coins that are actually superior to past submissions all this past year and without fail all the grades have been VERY disappointing. I could post pix all day of past 66s and 67s versus the coins I scrutinized at great length side by side with these coins and in every last case these better coins have come back graded lower.

    OK, so if this is the new standard then that means all my coins graded before this year are obviously overgraded and I need to send every one of them in and be compensated accordingly.
  • raycycaraycyca Posts: 1,706 ✭✭✭
    IS HRH out there? Anybody? Where is the answer, or do we all assume the truth wasn't what we wanted to hear? Ray
    You only live life once, enjoy it like it's your last day. It just MIGHT be!

    image
  • misterRmisterR Posts: 2,305 ✭✭
    HRH is history.

    Ron Guth is in.

    Ron Guth new president

  • ebaytraderebaytrader Posts: 3,312 ✭✭✭


    << <i>OK, so if this is the new standard then that means all my coins graded before this year are obviously overgraded and I need to send every one of them in and be compensated accordingly. >>




    image


    Good luck!
  • raycycaraycyca Posts: 1,706 ✭✭✭
    You're right, HRH is out. So is his promise. I guess they figured we'd forget too. My last submission is at PCGS now. With NGC's new clear plastic holder, CUSTOMER SERVICE, etc, I think they are getting a lot more service now. Ray image(
    You only live life once, enjoy it like it's your last day. It just MIGHT be!

    image
  • tmot99tmot99 Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭


    << <i>IS HRH out there? Anybody? Where is the answer, or do we all assume the truth wasn't what we wanted to hear? Ray >>



    More like the answer is what PCGS doesn't want to admit.
  • DatentypeDatentype Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭
    I agree ray, The customer service at NGC from every angle is around is 2000% better than PCGS. I am a firm believer at this point that for the most part NGC grades the coins correctly and PCGS undergrades them. You are going to see a huge change in the mix of coins submitted to these companies during the next year. I'm not saying PCGS will drop in total just the types of stuff they grade. They will cater to the quick glance stuff vs. the closer look stuff. I too have cracked out several older coins that were borderline undergraded in hopes of catching one just to get them back one or two grades lower. How do the French say it - se la vi??
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
    How many other companies do you deal with happily that after 6 months still haven't made good on a promise they made to their customers? Or do you think this deal got cancelled with a new president at the helm?
  • When this thread first started..I never expected an official reply. Its a no-winner either way. You're either telling people feeling that tightening had occurred (myself included) are wrong or you concede that it does go on.
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
    VamCollector, I agree. I found it humerous that so many plauded it. Still it would be nice to get some kind of response on what happened.
  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭


    << <i>When this thread first started..I never expected an official reply >>

    Well, I did. After all, the original post stated in part:

    << <i>I'll post facts and figures after June 1 >>

    Don't say it if you can't or wont follow through. image

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