Some Thoughts on Classic Commemoratives
Clankeye
Posts: 3,928 ✭
Fatman made this comment in another thread and it touches on some things I've been thinking about of late:
<< <i>With all the dull commems out there luster is king. >>
I think he is 100% correct.
I have been collecting classic commemoratives for a number of years now, and here are some thoughts I'd like to share.
(1) There are many, many of them out there, and almost all types are readily available.
(2) Some of them have very low mintages, but the pool of collectors who chase them is also small. Therefore, they too are usually available.
(3) The bulk of them have average to below average eye appeal. This not taking into account their actual design.
Even with some of the commems that command higher prices--the Lafeyette, Isabella, Missouri, Spanish Trail, Hudson etc. etc. ...on any given day, at any time of the year you can find an example for sale --whether at auction or on a dealer's website.
My point is this: hold out for the nice ones. Hold out for the great luster, the great strike, the nice color. Most classic commems are not rare--most are not even scarce. But, the nice ones--the great examples--those are harder to come by, and they make the hunt worthwhile.
This is not a knock on collecting commemoratives in anyway. They are tremendously interesting and collectible. And what I'm saying does not come down to simply buying the highest grade. It's about holding out for the special coins. The ones that speak to you. And that's a personal thing, but usually you know it when you see it.
Clankeye
<< <i>With all the dull commems out there luster is king. >>
I think he is 100% correct.
I have been collecting classic commemoratives for a number of years now, and here are some thoughts I'd like to share.
(1) There are many, many of them out there, and almost all types are readily available.
(2) Some of them have very low mintages, but the pool of collectors who chase them is also small. Therefore, they too are usually available.
(3) The bulk of them have average to below average eye appeal. This not taking into account their actual design.
Even with some of the commems that command higher prices--the Lafeyette, Isabella, Missouri, Spanish Trail, Hudson etc. etc. ...on any given day, at any time of the year you can find an example for sale --whether at auction or on a dealer's website.
My point is this: hold out for the nice ones. Hold out for the great luster, the great strike, the nice color. Most classic commems are not rare--most are not even scarce. But, the nice ones--the great examples--those are harder to come by, and they make the hunt worthwhile.
This is not a knock on collecting commemoratives in anyway. They are tremendously interesting and collectible. And what I'm saying does not come down to simply buying the highest grade. It's about holding out for the special coins. The ones that speak to you. And that's a personal thing, but usually you know it when you see it.
Clankeye
Brevity is the soul of wit. --William Shakespeare
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I've been looking for the "Right" Stone Mountain for quite some time. And darn it, around six months
ago Mike Printz had one and I missed it. At the time I thought his "Highlights" listed were ALLof his new purchases.
So that's all I would check. I was wrong and when I seen this beautiful Stone Mountain with that vibrant
red and yellow that's seldom seen in a PCGS MS-65 holder, you know what I heard when I starting shaking
and inquired about it. GONE as expected very quick.
Oh well, there will be another some day.
The Lafayette Dollar can be found with great toning and luster and very few marks, but you are looking at a $10 grand plus item. With some patience you can find a nice MS-63 or 64, but you will need to look for a while and pay a premium when you find it.
Ditto for the Missouri.
If you have to have a bright white Isabella, get ready to buy a dipped coin. These pieces are like other classic coins in that they were sold to collectors or placed in circulation and will almost always have some toning.
The Monroe and Sesquicentennial were poorly executed designs. If you are looking for a beautiful “knock out” coin, get ready to have hole in your set. There are decent examples of these coins, but no super ones if you place the same standards on these as you would a San Diego or an Oregon.
There are lots of old commemorative coins available because a very large percent of the mintages still exist. AND from the 1930s on, many coins were sold to collectors who knew how to preserve them in high grade.
The old commutative series is a lot of fun to collect and there are some great books on them that make the series even more fun. BUT insisting that every piece looks like it came from the Franklin Mint is unrealistic. All of them are their quirks and some quirks were more irksome than others.
That's the great thing about a series like commems. To simply fill holes, you could easy buy a set in one turn around the bourse. To get them the way you want them, you can wait for your pitch. In other more scarce series, you may only get a pitch once or twice a year, and you often have to make compromises or risk striking out altogether.
Stman--I know well the great "Stone Mountain" search. Right now you could probably buy 30 graded MS65 in the next hour off the net.
But, finding that one you want to keep in your collection... I've been looking a long time.
Clankeye
In the early 90's I bought my first commemorative. It was a Gettysburg graded NGC63.
That coin has a mintage of 26,928 coins. At the time "the boom" was on. Third party grading was relatively new, wallstreet was coming... etc. 26,928 seemed like nothing. I felt special just to own one.
I took the coin to a fellow named William E. Spears who taught me much about coins. He pointed out to me that it probably had been dipped and there was a problem area on the cheek on the obverse. He was gentle... but, the point was he didn't like the coin much.
Here we are more than twenty years later, and I could buy that coin cheaper now than I did back then.
My point: coin collecting is a small pond, and commemoratives are but a portion of that small pond. 26,928 may not seem like much, but it's relative. Gettysburgs were available then, and they are equally available now.
Hold out for the special coins, the ones that make your heart beat fast.
MS68 already has most of those!!!
I think they represent excellent relative value and can still be acquired on a fairly modest budget.
Clankeye/Carl, it's good to see you posting here.
As an aside, I own the Shepherd Stone Mountain, and while it's nice, it is not an amazing coin; there are very few truly beautiful coins of that issue.
Commems and Early Type
<< <i>As an aside, I own the Shepherd Stone Mountain, and while it's nice, it is not an amazing coin; there are very few truly beautiful coins of that issue. >>
Very true, Dr. Mikey. I owned the 1953-D Carver from Shepherd's collection for awhile and the same could be said for it. No knock on Shepherd's coin--he had a fantastic collection. This just backs up a point Bill Jones was making. Of the 144 piece set--a good majority of them have unique aspects to how you will find them. Stone Mountains just don't come that often with blazing, killer luster or vibrant color. 53-D Carvers are really hard to find with eye appeal and color. Even for the Larry Shepherds of the world.
But, it still means that every coin and every date has standout properties for their type. And there's the hunt.
You have some nice coins, Doc. I loved the MS61 Monroe I saw you post. A great example of finding a special coin.
And Coinguy1... hello to you. I probably should have bought that 37D Oregon.
<< <i>It's about holding out for the special coins. The ones that speak to you. And that's a personal thing, but usually you know it when you see it. >>
I couldn't have phrased it better.
I would consider it a personal favor if you would post a picture of the reverse of that new York of yours to this thread. Just to illustrate what it's all about.
<< <i>Fats,
I would consider it a personal favor if you would post a picture of the reverse of that new York of yours to this thread. Just to illustrate what it's all about.
My pleasure
Bruce Scher
<< <i>I don't think there is any substitute for that maturing process we all go through as we figure out what we like and what others agree is worth coveting. >>
-So many good points made in this thread, this one really spoke to me.
*On a side note, I recently submitted to PCGS some coins that belong to my father which he has had for 40+ years. I was satisfied with most of the grades but thrilled with the 1909 Gold Indian Head $2 1/2 which earned a PCGS MS63. Any thoughts on its' present realistic value? Thanks, John (dizzyfoxx)
I agree with most everything said so far. I would like to stress the importance of luster in this series. In talking with pros like Larry Shepherd I have learned that a one time flash dip can sometimes improve the look of an Early Commem. Any longer than flash, or repeated dips, and the coin appears to lose some of its luster. When I started buying this series, and the first ones were all from Larry in person, I only bought untoned coins.
90% of my Early Commems are "blast white" as Larry calls them. The remaining 10% are beautifully toned originals that still show strong luster, or they are in NGC PL holders where one cannot be too choosy because they hardly ever come onto the market.
The problem I have with toned coins overall is that pleasant toning is in the eye of the beholder, whereas "blast white" seems to be uniformly appreciated.
<< It's about holding out for the special coins. The ones that speak to you. And that's a personal thing, but usually you know it when you see it. >>
I couldn't have phrased it better. But then again, you are the Bard, aren't you.
Thanks for a great thread Clankeye
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
I of course like the Oregon Trail and the 1920 Pilgrim commem... question is which one should I get at Long Beach? I feel obligated to get a US coin now.
<< <i>
90% of my Early Commems are "blast white" as Larry calls them. The remaining 10% are beautifully toned originals that still show strong luster, or they are in NGC PL holders where one cannot be too choosy because they hardly ever come onto the market.
The problem I have with toned coins overall is that pleasant toning is in the eye of the beholder, whereas "blast white" seems to be uniformly appreciated. >>
I agree with you. But Bright white commens which is common in lower grades. but in High grade(PCGS-66+) is not easy to locate as beautiful toned one in PCGS holder. While NGC is a little easier.
My spin . . . while careful selection at the top end of the grade scale is obviously important to the heavy hitters of the world, it carries down to the small fish who just target an MS65 (average) set as well. This is also inferred in many responses above. I always keep a few sets working (Morgans, Type) at all times . . . and it might be only once a year I actually see a worthy Commem that fits my set (that I need). So . . I appease the collector in me with an eye-appealing Morgan or Type piece at most shows . . .while waiting for the right moment to get that Commem I really want.
You never know when one will surface. I see most of my best at local shops and small shows . . the sharks haven't gotten to them yet and they have just been brought in to the local-yokel shop after sitting in Grandpa's drawer in an original holder for 70 years. Usually they are raw, but if you can grade a smidge . . . you can add some nice pieces without filtering the coins through 5-6 hands prior to yours.
Keep your eyes open . . . .
DRUNNER
ANA Section 25 Rep
<< <i>I see most of my best at local shops and small shows . . the sharks haven't gotten to them yet and they have just been brought in to the local-yokel shop after sitting in Grandpa's drawer in an original holder for 70 years. >>
Oh, I love that scenario. Wish we had a few more local shops around here that brought in that kind of traffic.
Going back to my story about buying the Gettysburg in NGC63---
The great part of that experience was having someone like William Spears sit me down and actually show me what made a more quality coin.
He told me my coin had a dipped out look. He then pulled out about twenty examples of great commems and took the time to sit with me and talk about them. I was able to see what he meant when he talked about "original skin" and great luster, etc.
I will always be thankful to him for that. Unfortunately, he has since passed away. But, there is knowledge we take for granted in this hobby--think it's obvious to all--but, when you are just starting out it's practically a revelation. I was lucky to know that man.
Clankeye
I just went to eBay and Superior has posted commemorative lots for an upcoming auction. Just at a quick glance they had 26 Elgin commems graded 65 thru 66; 10 Lincoln commemoratives (a coin I love) graded MS67 and 16 additional Lincolns in the 65 to 66 grade range.
Lots of coins in high grade. At a glance, most of them looked fairly average. With the Lincolns they are even offering them in lots of three.
Again, there are many coins out there. The Elgin has total mintage of 20,015--and yet here are 26 of them being auctioned in one swoop.
Clankeye
Edited: grammar, grammar, grammar said my mom the English teacher.... Yikes! maybe she should have said spelling, spelling, spelling...
Don't you mean grammar?
Overland Trail Collection Showcase
Dahlonega Type Set-2008 PCGS Best Exhibited Set
I've been trying to complete a circulated type set of classic commems for a long time. You think appealing, unmessed with MS commems are hard to find? Sheesh... I swear some of 'em do not exist in AU or lower unless they've been scrubbed, dipped or mistreated to that low of a grade. Most of the pre '36 pieces aren't too hard to find, but those later years just didn't get into circulation in any quantity. The few EF-AU post '36 pieces you find are usually sliders from wear, but look EF from having been dipped out or mishandled.
I've basically given up on finding the last twenty or so pieces I need in circ...
So, what about that? Are there any honest circ Spanish Trail halves?
<< <i>I was just over to see a part-time guy today who deals out of a very cool antique shop near here, and the same subject came up. He's been at it for four decades handling stuff from 10 cents to 10 grand, and says he has *never* seen a circulated Spanish Trail, ever. This is a guy who gets around, too -- one of the 1848 CAL gold pieces came through his little show last year, for instance.
So, what about that? Are there any honest circ Spanish Trail halves? >>
I never noticed that. In checking Teletrade and Heritage the only thing found for circulated Spanish Trail is net graded ANACS. I'll bet you can tell us about many more issues not found in circulated condition, probably almost all those you have not been able to buy for yourself.
That said, I picked up two nice commems Thursday... looky here!
Jeremy