If this article has any merit, then why is the price of Gold not reflecting this large purchase? Or is this just another attempt to manipulate the Gold speculators? >>
The power of paper? That's why asking why if the Hunt Brothers conored the market in 79/80 and it shot up to $50 an ounce then why could Warren Buffet buy more silver than the Hunt's had (physical) and the price was right around $5 an ounce when he sold. To me the difference here is we have ETF's now and the COMEX markets are adding to the scam.
<< <i>I have a question, seems like there are a lot of smart folks posting on this thread so maybe someone can help me. I can kind of understand why the US is having such economic problems, but why are other countries like China, Germany, England, to name just a few that I've heard about, having trouble with their economies also? >>
Who do you think owns a lof of the US debt? Who exports products the the US consumption machine?
In some cases the same banks and other companies that are in trouble are global companies, so they have an impact all over the world.
I'd keep playing. I don't think the heavy stuff will be coming down for quite a while!
<< <i>I have a question, seems like there are a lot of smart folks posting on this thread so maybe someone can help me. I can kind of understand why the US is having such economic problems, but why are other countries like China, Germany, England, to name just a few that I've heard about, having trouble with their economies also? >>
Hey we did them a favor and packaged those sub-prime loans throughout the world
In this scenario he lays out, there isn't much difference between holding "old dollars" and physical gold, is there? If you were to cash in ten old (current) hundred dollar bills, you would get 100 new ones. If you cashed in your ounce of gold, you would get 100 new 100 dollar bills. Now I realize the paper price of gold right now is closer to $700.00, but all of his numbers are just guestimates anyway. Am I not thinking about this correctly? Also, would money in the bank and not physical cash, be considered old money and a zero added to it? Just curious what your thoughts are on this.
Devaluation of all the currencies would put physical gold though the roof. One of the reason it's cheap here is because the dollar went crazy a few months back. If it fall like the rest of the world it would post big gains. Gold is near record highs in most of the worlds currencies.
ttown... good link on the monetary gold standard (g-20) ....something to nibble on for sure. with all assets being "devalued to below rock bottom" (my wording) it only makes sense with regards to paper gold and silver too for that matter.
<< <i>I have a question, seems like there are a lot of smart folks posting on this thread so maybe someone can help me. I can kind of understand why the US is having such economic problems, but why are other countries like China, Germany, England, to name just a few that I've heard about, having trouble with their economies also? >>
Because all of these countries had access to easy credit also. European real estate was more overvalued than in the USA. And China has NO economy if not for Europe and the USA. Foreign currencies were also massively overvalued vs. the US dollar.
<< <i>Foreign currencies were also massively overvalued vs. the US dollar. >>
This was not suppposed to happen with floating exchange rates. Exchange rates were supposed to adjust based on actual trade deficits/surpluses. I guess theory did not factor in investors anticipating currency trends and moving money into offshore investment assets, futures and derivatives based on their expectiations.
"I have a question, seems like there are a lot of smart folks posting on this thread so maybe someone can help me. I can kind of understand why the US is having such economic problems, but why are other countries like China, Germany, England, to name just a few that I've heard about, having trouble with their economies also?”
The entire world is now either Socialistic, or Communistic, and this includes the U.S.A.
In these types of societies fewer and fewer people are left to pay the bills each year.
When these governments can no longer collect enough taxes to pay for all the wars and programs they have promised, they begin to create money out of thin air to meet their obligations.
This of course only last for a few short decades and then collapse in eminent.
We are in the collapses phase now.
About the time our original thirteen states adopted their new constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh , had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years earlier:
'A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government.'
'A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.'
From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.'
'The average age of the world's greatest democratic civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years'
<< <i>"I have a question, seems like there are a lot of smart folks posting on this thread so maybe someone can help me. I can kind of understand why the US is having such economic problems, but why are other countries like China, Germany, England, to name just a few that I've heard about, having trouble with their economies also?”
The entire world is now either Socialistic, or Communistic, and this includes the U.S.A.
In these types of societies fewer and fewer people are left to pay the bills each year.
When these governments can no longer collect enough taxes to pay for all the wars and programs they have promised, they begin to create money out of thin air to meet their obligations.
This of course only last for a few short decades and then collapse in eminent.
We are in the collapses phase now.
About the time our original thirteen states adopted their new constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh , had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years earlier:
'A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government.'
'A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.'
From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.'
'The average age of the world's greatest democratic civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years' >>
<< <i>I am disappointed because the markets are not being allowed to work themselves out. All this money being printed is just going into a black hole in banks balance sheets. It will never come into the economy because it is just fill. There will be no inflation and no economic growth. Banks still do not have money with which to make loans and consumers really dont want the loans anyway. >>
You nailed it buddy....I feel the same way.
Edited to add: I am not sure about the "no inflation" point. The inflation possibility exists because of the increased possibility of a treasury collapse due to the massive debt accumulation by the U.S gov. It wouldnt be a monetary inflation problem...but if the dollar collapsed along with it (depending on what the rest of the world looked like), then price inflation would still be the end result.
All of the $$$ that are being printed are not "out of thin air", this is merely replacement $$$ that have been lost from the housing & stock market slump. The PTB have succeeded in one of the largest redistributions of wealth ever conceived and the greatest crime ever perpetrated on the once middle class working American.
Regards, John
Need the following OBW rolls to complete my 46-64 Roosevelt roll set: 1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S. Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
Latest update shows a very high level of energy/momentum in gold right now coupled with a 3rd "successfull" retest of the $675-$700 level in gold. According to the author, a very large potential upside with far less downside.
Noted that MS64 $2-1/2 Libs fell to 5-7 year lows at $850. They fell $100 just in the last day or two. I decided to take a position in them while people were panicking. MS63 $2-1/2 Indians at $635 are at cycle lows as well.
mortgages will be home free and silver will move up
along with gold. Folks retired or on a fixed income will
be screwedddddddd like you wouldn't believe as will folks
with money in the bank. >>
Absolutely right Bear. I would think coins would do great.... and, I would think one would possibly want to be back into solid stocks. (The dollar amount of a share may change, but the underlying value should still remain steady). Of course, gold (and probably silver) would certainly be a great thing to be into.
The LAST thing you would want to be into is a cash account of some kind. (hmm.... think of all the money that has been recently transfered into fixed cash accounts for 'safe keeping'.... if a surprise revaluation of 10:1 would take place, think of how much these would be wiped out).
Who knows what surprises they will have in store for us.
Hello communist China, have we got a deal for you!
WASHINGTON (AP) November 13, 2008
October budget deficit hits record of $237.2B
Government begins budget year with record deficit of $237.2 billion.
The Treasury Department said Thursday that the deficit for the first month in the new budget year was the highest monthly imbalance on record. It was far bigger than analysts expected, over four times larger than the October 2007 deficit of $56.8 billion, and more than half the total for all of last year."
Any guesses on how long we have before the world says NO MAS?
Gee I don’t know why we don’t feel elated? Just because half our stock retirement plans are gone, the value of our homes is in the toilet, the government, the car companies, the banks, etc. are broke, we should be thankful that GAS IS CHEAP, HA HA HA HA .
Lower Gas Prices Don’t Make Americans Feel Rich
By CHRISTOPHER MAAG Published: November 13, 2008
CLEVELAND — Drivers are breathing a sigh of relief as gasoline prices plunge across the country. Gas below $1.50 a gallon has appeared in a few places in recent days, and the national average has dropped almost in half since July, to $2.18 a gallon.
But even as worry about gas prices fades, it is being replaced by fear about the broader economy. Each 10-cent drop in gasoline prices puts $12 billion a year back in consumers’ pockets. Instead of spending that cash, people are trying to save it or cut their debt, many said in interviews.
Tha total value of all the gold held by the USG is only $188 billion? They spent $280 billion just in October 2008? I know this is a simplistic way of viewing it, but it seems to indicate spending is way out of control and accelerating, and gold is way undervalued.
<< <i>it seems to indicate spending is way out of control and accelerating, and gold is way undervalued. >>
Since our currency is not backed by gold, how does government spending indicate that gold is undervalued? Does it also mean that aluminium is undervalued? What about wood?
Since our currency is not backed by gold, how does government spending indicate that gold is undervalued? Does it also mean that aluminium is undervalued? What about wood?
Aluminum and wood have not backed leading world currencies in the past. But gold has. Central bankers have hoarded tens of thousands of tonnes in gold for decades. Not true for Aluminum or Wood. I wasn't alive when the world decided to use gold to back their monetary systems. It was their choice, not mine. They must have had a good reason. The fact that Nixon tossed aside a gold standard "on paper" in 1971 doesn't mean that the reality of that is 100% intact.
Wood and/or Aluminum could indeed be undervalued. So could collector quality Pez dispeners. But none of them is gold...never will be.
Your initial statement is not correct imo. The central bankers do indeed consider gold as a back-up currency but would never say that publically. They however do not consider wood or Aluminum as any sort of currency. Gold outshines those and most other commodities in many ways.
I read through this plan and I just cannot see this happening!
Here are the problems I see, first If you did this most of the wealth in the world would be transferred to gold bugs and coin collectors away from those that deal in PAPER and the PAPER guys are the ones with all the political power.
Second, we would certainly know in advance if something of this nature were under foot as it is impossible for anyone to keep a secret in this age, even when there is a “President to President” meeting as there was last week. The gold market is so thin if it shoots up a few hundred dollars in a day that might be a warning signal.
Third, even if they come up with a new currency, or devalue our current currency, this will solve nothing. We will still live in a socialist world where more than half the folks depend on their governments for a hand out and the situation will just rebuild huge debts within a few short years.
I believe that system failure is the only option. The politicians will not cut the size of government on their own.
If the government MUST be cut simply because no one will lend us money, they will not be blamed, and being cowards, I believe this is the road they will take.
I wonder if Larry really believes that the other players in the world are going to give us free reign to just print all the “New Money” we want after the devaluation has occurred?
“<< The G-20’s Secret Debt Solution >>
this has become a top "five" story at nowpublic.com FWIW >>
I can’t tell you what gold price the G-20 would ultimately agree to. But here’s what they will be looking at … · To monetize 100% of the outstanding public and private sector debt in the U.S., the official government price of gold would have to be raised to about $53,000 per ounce. · To monetize 50%, the price of gold would have to be raised to around $26,500 an ounce. · To monetize 20% would require a gold price a hair over $10,600 an ounce.
No bailouts for Americans but everyone else is going for the gold
Illegal Immigrants To Get Next Bailout By IRA MEHLMAN | Posted Friday, November 14, 2008 4:20 PM PT
There are disturbing parallels between the financial crisis and America's illegal immigration crisis. In both cases, the irresponsible acts of the few have become the collective burdens of the majority who behaved responsibly and legally.
During the campaign, President-elect Obama promised to address immigration policy — with amnesty for millions of illegal aliens as its centerpiece — during his first year in office.
Couched euphemistically as "comprehensive immigration reform," the plan we can expect from the Obama administration will have the earmarks of another massively expensive taxpayer bailout scheme. The minority of people who acted illegally and irresponsibly would benefit, while the vast majority who played by the rules would get stuck with the bills.
America's worsening financial crisis was brought about by people who borrowed money they could not afford to repay, and the financial institutions who earned huge short-term profits by making irresponsible loans.
Poor Choices
America's illegal immigration crisis was brought about by people who were drawn to this country by jobs they knew they had no legal right to, and employers who profited handsomely from their low-wage labor.
While the vast majority of Americans who resisted the temptation of easy short-term credit, and borrowed within their means, feel bad for those who were enticed by such offers, they do not believe such irresponsible personal behavior should be rewarded.
The unfortunate consequence of these personal borrowing decisions is that many people — along with their innocent children — will lose their homes.
Similarly, while most Americans empathize with the aspirations of those who violated our immigration laws, they do not believe that illegal behavior should be rewarded. The vast majority of Americans support government steps to enforce immigration laws, especially in the workplace, and understand that it is the illegal aliens themselves who are responsible for any consequent hardships experienced by children and other family members.
While Americans have sympathy for individuals who got in over their heads, they feel nothing but seething anger toward the financial institutions that made irresponsible loans and the executives who enriched themselves in the process.
Similarly, the public has nothing but contempt for the businesses that padded their profits while systematically undercutting middle-class workers by hiring illegal aliens, forcing everyone else to subsidize their low-wage workers.
Morally and financially, an illegal-alien amnesty would be the equivalent of another massive bailout program. The individuals who violated our immigration laws would be eligible for a "restructuring" of their status in this country. With a few minor conditions and penalties they would get to remain in the U.S. and, over time, enjoy the full benefits and privileges of citizenship.
The companies that have been illicitly profiting from hiring illegal aliens would get to keep their workers and have easier access to still more foreign labor in the future. Given their success at lobbying to ensure that laws against hiring illegal aliens are never really enforced, no one would be surprised to find history repeating itself a decade or two down the road.
In the meantime, all Americans would be forced to bear the staggering costs of amnesty for many people who, owing to their skill and educational profiles, are certain to rely heavily on government assistance programs.
As amnesty beneficiaries "come out of the shadows," reunite with family members outside the country and give birth to U.S. citizen children, the costs of providing benefits and services to this population will again fall on the shoulders of the American taxpayer.
Going To Hurt
Much like the financial crisis, America's illegal immigration crisis must be resolved and there are no painless options. The only matter to be determined is who will pay the price for decades of rampant disregard for law and the common good.
The best option for the Obama administration would be to continue, or even accelerate, the Bush administration's recent enforcement efforts. Over time, consistent enforcement of laws against the employment of illegal aliens, elimination of nonessential benefits and services to illegal aliens, and cooperation with local law enforcement will reduce the illegal population of the United States to manageable levels.
For once, law-abiding, middle-class workers and taxpayers would actually benefit instead of being required to share the pain for illegal behavior and negligence that they did not contribute to.
Mehlman is national media director for the Federation for American Immigration Reform.
The gold market is so thin if it shoots up a few hundred dollars in a day that might be a warning signal.
The physical gold market might be razor thin, but the paper and derivatives gold market can grow to unlimited "bogus" levels. If one side keeps buying physical, the other side will keep adding the shorts and derivatives to "balance" the market. The only way such a scam gets discovered is when buyers start demanding delivery....or a BSC or Lehman goes down with billions in worthless gold derivatives on the books. And hence the need for a JPM or similar sponge to vacuum up those toxic gold derivatives. When the deliverable gold finally runs into a brick wall, a doubling of gold could occur nearly overnight. And no amount of TA or gold charting can prepare oneself for such an event. The gold cartel already allows double reporting of central bank gold inventories. That is that the parties leasing and acquiring the gold both get to record it on their books. The US will continue to show 8100 tonnes of gold on the books regardless of many tonnes of gold is leased or sold to other parties. As long as no one demands delivery, the game goes on. And if the US actually stores other nation's physical gold in its vaults, that's the law where possession is 90% of the game.
The Saudi's supposedly just purchased $3.5BILL in gold but yet it had no effect on the gold price. Hence that gold was acquired outside the comex and may have been just another lease of the same gold residing in someone else's hands. If they had taken delivery of the physical gold, it should have had an effect on gold prices. The IMF supposedly holds 3000+ tons of gold but it seems likely they would have been one of the first entities to start leasing out gold as the events of 2008 unfolded.
82 year old, stock and commodities analyst Richard Russell has lived through the great depression and other demanding times. Up until recently he didn't really buy the claim that gold was manipulated. He's apparently changing his mind. A rising pog would be a warning flag that the dollar isn't right. And JPMorgan-Treasury-FED (all the same company really) won't tolerate that with the current crisis going on.
From Dow Theory Letter by Richard Russell Thursday, November 13, 2008
I've never been a big fan of the "gold is being manipulated" thesis. However, I'm now giving the manipulation thesis second thoughts.
Most of the world's central banks are now in the process of fighting recession and deflation. This requires government spending and the production of enormous quantities of new fiat money. The last thing the central banks want is for the public to realize what they are doing.
Normally, surging gold would be the signal for the public to ask questions -- rising gold is a red flag for the fiat money creators.
It's amazing and beyond coincidence the way gold rallies and then immediately is hammered down below $740. I know that there are huge short positions in gold on the COMEX. I'm no longer a skeptic on the "gold is being manipulated" claim. Somebody is selling gold every time gold rallies toward a breakout above $870, or more properly gold at $840.
I don't think the manipulators (if there are such people) can keep it up.
<< <i>Why does the FED keep lowering the interest rate. Is this not one of the reasons we are in the condition we are in today. IMO raising the
interest rate 5, 6, 7% makes more senseful way to go. Ya know, induce people to save, not go into debt. >>
The problem is that credit is not being given out.... borrowing is not taking place. If you increase interest rates, that will discourage borrowing even more. And that is the opposite of what they want to happen. They want money to start flowing again.
Was informed that since I am a small business, I've incorporated as a PM dealer for tax benefits, I now qualify for a bailout loan.
Up to $250,000(amount at my discretion), no collateral, signature only loan. I'm having the forms sent to me.
I only have to show 3K in checking deposits per month for the last 12 months and have been in business for over 12 months.
That part is a no brainer.
It sounds as if I fold my corporation, I will owe nothing.
Sounds too good to be true, but I will check it out. Hey, I can re-tool my workshop and melt down 1,000 ounce bars into smaller sizes, stamp my logo on there and away we go!
I think it stinks, but I qualify as a small business, I suppose if they are now handing these things out with only a 2 page form to process, I may as well look into it.
Been paying taxes all my life as well as both sides of FICA and I know I'll never see that, may as well get in the gravy train line while there is one.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
So I got a free 2 hour CD in the mail from a news letter. It was pro gold but it has a lot of interesting facts and a historical references. Any way on the sub-prime mess it has most of the big bank 10-30 billion invested in those instruments. Then came JP Morgan that brought Leaman Brothers they have the lions share at a HUGE 90 trillion you talk about a bank about to go under at least most of it will be in one big bank default. There way of thinking was this brought them 2 or 3 years since they could blame everything on the Leaman takeover.
The other thing they brought out was that the FDIC had about 1% to cover all the deposits in the banks and that was at 100,000 per account max, now that it's at 250k it's well below a half percent. Seems the goverment is not only giving the banks money but they'll be using the FDIC to fight the battle by letting smaller banks fail which most Americans won't consider that as even being part of this whole bailout mess. We're screwed in my opinion and within a year people will be singing a different tune about the value of the dollar and how foolish PM's are. You want to see the real "tin foil" crowd you just have to look at the dollar hoarders, they have all the facts but some how this time is going to be different than anytime in the past.
that 3.5 billion in gold bought by the Saudi's....have been trying to find some concrete evidence that it actually happened....even under the radar it would have made mainstream press, one would think.
yet if there is manipulation going on behind a curtain, i suppose anything is possible to hide and coerce silence
just a passing thought, why doesn't the UAW buy GM ford and Chrysler....like just have them trade their pensions and retirement benefits for ownership? then they can run it the way they wanted to for decades....oopps!!! now they say it's not managements fault...lol
i know this way naive
yet if the government says yes to Autos, where to draw the line? you have Tech companies, Health care, etc will just find it easier to BK oneself and get "free money"
i like DH's idea....maybe that's the "change" he is talking about? j/k
The above links to news articles are not meant to spread doom and gloom, but rather to explain why the dollar has been and will continue to be strong relative to the currency basket.
The other thing they brought out was that the FDIC had about 1% to cover all the deposits in the banks and that was at 100,000 per account max, now that it's at 250k it's well below a half percent. Seems the goverment is not only giving the banks money but they'll be using the FDIC to fight the battle by letting smaller banks fail which most Americans won't consider that as even being part of this whole bailout mess. We're screwed in my opinion and within a year people will be singing a different tune about the value of the dollar and how foolish PM's are. You want to see the real "tin foil" crowd you just have to look at the dollar hoarders, they have all the facts but some how this time is going to be different than anytime in the past. >>
ttown, I had to read this paragraph about three times, I'm a Marine so I'm a little slow. PM's are foolish and the dollar is strong(?)...please illuminate me.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>Saudi Arabia buys $3.5bn of gold in two weeks >>
If this article has any merit, then why is the price of Gold not reflecting this large purchase? Or is this just another attempt to manipulate the Gold speculators? >>
The power of paper? That's why asking why if the Hunt Brothers conored the market in 79/80 and it shot up to $50 an ounce then why could Warren Buffet buy more silver than the Hunt's had (physical) and the price was right around $5 an ounce when he sold. To me the difference here is we have ETF's now and the COMEX markets are adding to the scam.
<< <i>I have a question, seems like there are a lot of smart folks posting on this thread so maybe someone can help me.
I can kind of understand why the US is having such economic problems, but why are other countries like China, Germany, England, to name just a few that I've heard about, having trouble with their economies also? >>
Who do you think owns a lof of the US debt? Who exports products the the US consumption machine?
In some cases the same banks and other companies that are in trouble are global companies, so they have an impact all over the world.
<< <i>I have a question, seems like there are a lot of smart folks posting on this thread so maybe someone can help me.
I can kind of understand why the US is having such economic problems, but why are other countries like China, Germany, England, to name just a few that I've heard about, having trouble with their economies also? >>
Hey we did them a favor and packaged those sub-prime loans throughout the world
<< <i>The G-20’s Secret Debt Solution >>
In this scenario he lays out, there isn't much difference between holding "old dollars" and physical gold, is there? If you were to cash in ten old (current) hundred dollar bills, you would get 100 new ones. If you cashed in your ounce of gold, you would get 100 new 100 dollar bills. Now I realize the paper price of gold right now is closer to $700.00, but all of his numbers are just guestimates anyway. Am I not thinking about this correctly? Also, would money in the bank and not physical cash, be considered old money and a zero added to it? Just curious what your thoughts are on this.
<< <i>I have a question, seems like there are a lot of smart folks posting on this thread so maybe someone can help me.
I can kind of understand why the US is having such economic problems, but why are other countries like China, Germany, England, to name just a few that I've heard about, having trouble with their economies also? >>
Because all of these countries had access to easy credit also. European real estate was more overvalued than in the USA. And China has NO economy if not for Europe and the USA. Foreign currencies were also massively overvalued vs. the US dollar.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>Foreign currencies were also massively overvalued vs. the US dollar. >>
This was not suppposed to happen with floating exchange rates. Exchange rates were supposed to adjust based on actual trade deficits/surpluses. I guess theory did not factor in investors anticipating currency trends and moving money into offshore investment assets, futures and derivatives based on their expectiations.
CG
"I have a question, seems like there are a lot of smart folks posting on this thread so maybe someone can help me.
I can kind of understand why the US is having such economic problems, but why are other countries like China, Germany, England, to name just a few that I've heard about, having trouble with their economies also?”
The entire world is now either Socialistic, or Communistic, and this includes the U.S.A.
In these types of societies fewer and fewer people are left to pay the bills each year.
When these governments can no longer collect enough taxes to pay for all the wars and programs they have promised, they begin to create money out of thin air to meet their obligations.
This of course only last for a few short decades and then collapse in eminent.
We are in the collapses phase now.
About the time our original thirteen states adopted their new constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh , had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years earlier:
'A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government.'
'A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.'
From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.'
'The average age of the world's greatest democratic civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years'
<< <i>The G-20’s Secret Debt Solution >>
this has become a top "five" story at nowpublic.com FWIW
<< <i>
<< <i>The G-20’s Secret Debt Solution >>
this has become a top "five" story at nowpublic.com FWIW >>
which always end with, "if you want to know more subscribe to my
mailing list for $$$ per year".
<< <i>"I have a question, seems like there are a lot of smart folks posting on this thread so maybe someone can help me.
I can kind of understand why the US is having such economic problems, but why are other countries like China, Germany, England, to name just a few that I've heard about, having trouble with their economies also?”
The entire world is now either Socialistic, or Communistic, and this includes the U.S.A.
In these types of societies fewer and fewer people are left to pay the bills each year.
When these governments can no longer collect enough taxes to pay for all the wars and programs they have promised, they begin to create money out of thin air to meet their obligations.
This of course only last for a few short decades and then collapse in eminent.
We are in the collapses phase now.
About the time our original thirteen states adopted their new constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh , had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years earlier:
'A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government.'
'A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.'
From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.'
'The average age of the world's greatest democratic civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years' >>
very sobering GS
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The G-20’s Secret Debt Solution >>
this has become a top "five" story at nowpublic.com FWIW >>
which always end with, "if you want to know more subscribe to my
mailing list for $$$ per year". >>
thanks, not quite, but i am still looking for "someone's" ORIGINAL certified copy of birth
<< <i>I am disappointed because the markets are not being allowed to work themselves out. All this money being printed is just going into a black hole in banks balance sheets. It will never come into the economy because it is just fill. There will be no inflation and no economic growth. Banks still do not have money with which to make loans and consumers really dont want the loans anyway. >>
You nailed it buddy....I feel the same way.
Edited to add: I am not sure about the "no inflation" point. The inflation possibility exists because of the increased possibility of a treasury collapse due to the massive debt accumulation by the U.S gov. It wouldnt be a monetary inflation problem...but if the dollar collapsed along with it (depending on what the rest of the world looked like), then price inflation would still be the end result.
siliconvalleycoins.com
The PTB have succeeded in one of the largest redistributions of wealth ever conceived and the greatest crime ever perpetrated on the once middle class working American.
Regards,
John
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
siliconvalleycoins.com
Credit cards create credit out of thin air.
Leveraging assets such as mortgage tranches
creates money out of thin air.
Manipulation of stock prices creates money out
of thin air.
Issuing paper on non existent gold and silver is
creating money out of thin air.
Any time one inflates profits by the stroke of the pencil
and covers up losses, you are inflating the under lying
value of the stock or investment paper creating wealth
out of thin air.
Now, when the Treasury creates 2 trillion dollars for the cost
of paper , ink and printing, that is really creating money out of
the very thinnest air that there is. Within 12 months of its
creationwe will see the inflation results of this little piccadillo.
The funny thing is, they put John Dillinger in prison for
robbing a bank of 3 thousand dollars.
Instead of rewarding the banking and financial robber barons
with 100 million dollar severance packages, they should be
burned at the stake and all of their assets
siezed to refund to the poor souls who got taken in
the giant fraud. Throw Paulson and
Bernake in with that bunch to be burned at the stake.
Camelot
and inflate values, then rare coins would seem
primed to move heavenward. People already having
mortgages will be home free and silver will move up
along with gold. Folks retired or on a fixed income will
be screwedddddddd like you wouldn't believe as will folks
with money in the bank.
Camelot
Latest update shows a very high level of energy/momentum in gold right now coupled with a 3rd "successfull" retest of the $675-$700 level in gold. According to the author, a very large potential upside with far less downside.
Noted that MS64 $2-1/2 Libs fell to 5-7 year lows at $850. They fell $100 just in the last day or two. I decided to take a position in them while people were panicking. MS63 $2-1/2 Indians at $635 are at cycle lows as well.
roadrunner
<< <i>If the G-20 were to decide to revalue gold
and inflate values, then rare coins would seem
primed to move heavenward. People already having
mortgages will be home free and silver will move up
along with gold. Folks retired or on a fixed income will
be screwedddddddd like you wouldn't believe as will folks
with money in the bank. >>
Absolutely right Bear. I would think coins would do great.... and, I would think one would possibly want to be back into solid stocks. (The dollar amount of a share may change, but the underlying value should still remain steady). Of course, gold (and probably silver) would certainly be a great thing to be into.
The LAST thing you would want to be into is a cash account of some kind. (hmm.... think of all the money that has been recently transfered into fixed cash accounts for 'safe keeping'.... if a surprise revaluation of 10:1 would take place, think of how much these would be wiped out).
Who knows what surprises they will have in store for us.
WASHINGTON (AP) November 13, 2008
October budget deficit hits record of $237.2B
Government begins budget year with record deficit of $237.2 billion.
The Treasury Department said Thursday that the deficit for the first month in the new budget year was the highest monthly imbalance on record. It was far bigger than analysts expected, over four times larger than the October 2007 deficit of $56.8 billion, and more than half the total for all of last year."
Any guesses on how long we have before the world says NO MAS?
Just because half our stock retirement plans are gone, the value of our homes is in the toilet, the government, the car companies, the banks, etc. are broke, we should be thankful that GAS IS CHEAP, HA HA HA HA .
Lower Gas Prices Don’t Make Americans Feel Rich
By CHRISTOPHER MAAG
Published: November 13, 2008
CLEVELAND — Drivers are breathing a sigh of relief as gasoline prices plunge across the country. Gas below $1.50 a gallon has appeared in a few places in recent days, and the national average has dropped almost in half since July, to $2.18 a gallon.
But even as worry about gas prices fades, it is being replaced by fear about the broader economy. Each 10-cent drop in gasoline prices puts $12 billion a year back in consumers’ pockets. Instead of spending that cash, people are trying to save it or cut their debt, many said in interviews.
Gold rush
I don't think that the outcome of this meeting will dethrone the dollar.
I think at best the outcome of this and following meetings is a basket of currencies to include e.g. Euro, Yuan, Yen and the Dollar.
The eventuality will be to bundle this basket in some time into a world currency.
A multi-lateral approach instead of the 60 year dollar dominated world.
Ren
<< <i>it seems to indicate spending is way out of control and accelerating, and gold is way undervalued. >>
Since our currency is not backed by gold, how does government spending indicate that gold is undervalued? Does it also mean that aluminium is undervalued? What about wood?
CG
They haven't earned the money. I don't have any outstanding loans with them. Why are my duly-elected representatives giving my money to these bankers?
It's not about liquidity. It's not about the housing market. It's not about libor. It's not about international trade. It's about corruption.
I knew it would happen.
Whither the US dollar?
Insurers pull cover from GM and Ford suppliers
Aluminum and wood have not backed leading world currencies in the past. But gold has.
Central bankers have hoarded tens of thousands of tonnes in gold for decades. Not true for Aluminum or Wood.
I wasn't alive when the world decided to use gold to back their monetary systems. It was their choice, not mine. They must have had a good reason. The fact that Nixon tossed aside a gold standard "on paper" in 1971 doesn't mean that the reality of that is 100% intact.
Wood and/or Aluminum could indeed be undervalued. So could collector quality Pez dispeners. But none of them is gold...never will be.
Your initial statement is not correct imo. The central bankers do indeed consider gold as a back-up currency but would never say that publically. They however do not consider wood or Aluminum as any sort of currency. Gold outshines those and most other commodities in many ways.
roadrunner
I read through this plan and I just cannot see this happening!
Here are the problems I see, first If you did this most of the wealth in the world would be transferred to gold bugs and coin collectors away from those that deal in PAPER and the PAPER guys are the ones with all the political power.
Second, we would certainly know in advance if something of this nature were under foot as it is impossible for anyone to keep a secret in this age, even when there is a “President to President” meeting as there was last week. The gold market is so thin if it shoots up a few hundred dollars in a day that might be a warning signal.
Third, even if they come up with a new currency, or devalue our current currency, this will solve nothing. We will still live in a socialist world where more than half the folks depend on their governments for a hand out and the situation will just rebuild huge debts within a few short years.
I believe that system failure is the only option. The politicians will not cut the size of government on their own.
If the government MUST be cut simply because no one will lend us money, they will not be blamed, and being cowards, I believe this is the road they will take.
I wonder if Larry really believes that the other players in the world are going to give us free reign to just print all the “New Money” we want after the devaluation has occurred?
“<< The G-20’s Secret Debt Solution >>
this has become a top "five" story at nowpublic.com FWIW >>
I can’t tell you what gold price the G-20 would ultimately agree to. But here’s what they will be looking at …
· To monetize 100% of the outstanding public and private sector debt in the U.S., the official government price of gold would have to be raised to about $53,000 per ounce.
· To monetize 50%, the price of gold would have to be raised to around $26,500 an ounce.
· To monetize 20% would require a gold price a hair over $10,600 an ounce.
No bailouts for Americans but everyone else is going for the gold
Illegal Immigrants To Get Next Bailout
By IRA MEHLMAN | Posted Friday, November 14, 2008 4:20 PM PT
There are disturbing parallels between the financial crisis and America's illegal immigration crisis. In both cases, the irresponsible acts of the few have become the collective burdens of the majority who behaved responsibly and legally.
During the campaign, President-elect Obama promised to address immigration policy — with amnesty for millions of illegal aliens as its centerpiece — during his first year in office.
Couched euphemistically as "comprehensive immigration reform," the plan we can expect from the Obama administration will have the earmarks of another massively expensive taxpayer bailout scheme. The minority of people who acted illegally and irresponsibly would benefit, while the vast majority who played by the rules would get stuck with the bills.
America's worsening financial crisis was brought about by people who borrowed money they could not afford to repay, and the financial institutions who earned huge short-term profits by making irresponsible loans.
Poor Choices
America's illegal immigration crisis was brought about by people who were drawn to this country by jobs they knew they had no legal right to, and employers who profited handsomely from their low-wage labor.
While the vast majority of Americans who resisted the temptation of easy short-term credit, and borrowed within their means, feel bad for those who were enticed by such offers, they do not believe such irresponsible personal behavior should be rewarded.
The unfortunate consequence of these personal borrowing decisions is that many people — along with their innocent children — will lose their homes.
Similarly, while most Americans empathize with the aspirations of those who violated our immigration laws, they do not believe that illegal behavior should be rewarded. The vast majority of Americans support government steps to enforce immigration laws, especially in the workplace, and understand that it is the illegal aliens themselves who are responsible for any consequent hardships experienced by children and other family members.
While Americans have sympathy for individuals who got in over their heads, they feel nothing but seething anger toward the financial institutions that made irresponsible loans and the executives who enriched themselves in the process.
Similarly, the public has nothing but contempt for the businesses that padded their profits while systematically undercutting middle-class workers by hiring illegal aliens, forcing everyone else to subsidize their low-wage workers.
Morally and financially, an illegal-alien amnesty would be the equivalent of another massive bailout program. The individuals who violated our immigration laws would be eligible for a "restructuring" of their status in this country. With a few minor conditions and penalties they would get to remain in the U.S. and, over time, enjoy the full benefits and privileges of citizenship.
The companies that have been illicitly profiting from hiring illegal aliens would get to keep their workers and have easier access to still more foreign labor in the future. Given their success at lobbying to ensure that laws against hiring illegal aliens are never really enforced, no one would be surprised to find history repeating itself a decade or two down the road.
In the meantime, all Americans would be forced to bear the staggering costs of amnesty for many people who, owing to their skill and educational profiles, are certain to rely heavily on government assistance programs.
As amnesty beneficiaries "come out of the shadows," reunite with family members outside the country and give birth to U.S. citizen children, the costs of providing benefits and services to this population will again fall on the shoulders of the American taxpayer.
Going To Hurt
Much like the financial crisis, America's illegal immigration crisis must be resolved and there are no painless options. The only matter to be determined is who will pay the price for decades of rampant disregard for law and the common good.
The best option for the Obama administration would be to continue, or even accelerate, the Bush administration's recent enforcement efforts. Over time, consistent enforcement of laws against the employment of illegal aliens, elimination of nonessential benefits and services to illegal aliens, and cooperation with local law enforcement will reduce the illegal population of the United States to manageable levels.
For once, law-abiding, middle-class workers and taxpayers would actually benefit instead of being required to share the pain for illegal behavior and negligence that they did not contribute to.
Mehlman is national media director for the Federation for American Immigration Reform.
The physical gold market might be razor thin, but the paper and derivatives gold market can grow to unlimited "bogus" levels. If one side keeps buying physical, the other side will keep adding the shorts and derivatives to "balance" the market. The only way such a scam gets discovered is when buyers start demanding delivery....or a BSC or Lehman goes down with billions in worthless gold derivatives on the books. And hence the need for a JPM or similar sponge to vacuum up those toxic gold derivatives. When the deliverable gold finally runs into a brick wall, a doubling of gold could occur nearly overnight. And no amount of TA or gold charting can prepare oneself for such an event. The gold cartel already allows double reporting of central bank gold inventories. That is that the parties leasing and acquiring the gold both get to record it on their books. The US will continue to show 8100 tonnes of gold on the books regardless of many tonnes of gold is leased or sold to other parties. As long as no one demands delivery, the game goes on. And if the US actually stores other nation's physical gold in its vaults, that's the law where possession is 90% of the game.
The Saudi's supposedly just purchased $3.5BILL in gold but yet it had no effect on the gold price. Hence that gold was acquired outside the comex and may have been just another lease of the same gold residing in someone else's hands. If they had taken delivery of the physical gold, it should have had an effect on gold prices. The IMF supposedly holds 3000+ tons of gold but it seems likely they would have been one of the first entities to start leasing out gold as the events of 2008 unfolded.
82 year old, stock and commodities analyst Richard Russell has lived through the great depression and other demanding times. Up until recently he didn't really buy the claim that gold was manipulated. He's apparently changing his mind. A rising pog would be a warning flag that the dollar isn't right. And JPMorgan-Treasury-FED (all the same company really) won't tolerate that with the current crisis going on.
From Dow Theory Letter
by Richard Russell
Thursday, November 13, 2008
I've never been a big fan of the "gold is being manipulated" thesis. However, I'm now giving the manipulation thesis second thoughts.
Most of the world's central banks are now in the process of fighting recession and deflation. This requires government spending and the production of enormous quantities of new fiat money. The last thing the central banks want is for the public to realize what they are doing.
Normally, surging gold would be the signal for the public to ask questions -- rising gold is a red flag for the fiat money creators.
It's amazing and beyond coincidence the way gold rallies and then immediately is hammered down below $740. I know that there are huge short positions in gold on the COMEX. I'm no longer a skeptic on the "gold is being manipulated" claim. Somebody is selling gold every time gold rallies toward a breakout above $870, or more properly gold at $840.
I don't think the manipulators (if there are such people) can keep it up.
roadrunner
interest rate 5, 6, 7% makes more senseful way to go. Ya know, induce people to save, not go into debt.
<< <i>Why does the FED keep lowering the interest rate. Is this not one of the reasons we are in the condition we are in today. IMO raising the
interest rate 5, 6, 7% makes more senseful way to go. Ya know, induce people to save, not go into debt. >>
The problem is that credit is not being given out.... borrowing is not taking place. If you increase interest rates, that will discourage borrowing even more. And that is the opposite of what they want to happen. They want money to start flowing again.
Was informed that since I am a small business, I've incorporated as a PM dealer for tax benefits, I now qualify for a bailout loan.
Up to $250,000(amount at my discretion), no collateral, signature only loan. I'm having the forms sent to me.
I only have to show 3K in checking deposits per month for the last 12 months and have been in business for over 12 months.
That part is a no brainer.
It sounds as if I fold my corporation, I will owe nothing.
Sounds too good to be true, but I will check it out. Hey, I can re-tool my workshop and melt down 1,000 ounce bars into smaller sizes, stamp my logo on there and away we go!
I think it stinks, but I qualify as a small business, I suppose if they are now handing these things out with only a 2 page form to process, I may as well look into it.
Been paying taxes all my life as well as both sides of FICA and I know I'll never see that, may as well get in the gravy train line while there is one.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
The other thing they brought out was that the FDIC had about 1% to cover all the deposits in the banks and that was at 100,000 per account max, now that it's at 250k it's well below a half percent. Seems the goverment is not only giving the banks money but they'll be using the FDIC to fight the battle by letting smaller banks fail which most Americans won't consider that as even being part of this whole bailout mess. We're screwed in my opinion and within a year people will be singing a different tune about the value of the dollar and how foolish PM's are. You want to see the real "tin foil" crowd you just have to look at the dollar hoarders, they have all the facts but some how this time is going to be different than anytime in the past.
that 3.5 billion in gold bought by the Saudi's....have been trying to find some concrete evidence that it actually happened....even under the radar it would have made mainstream press, one would think.
yet if there is manipulation going on behind a curtain, i suppose anything is possible to hide and coerce silence
UAW say help
just a passing thought, why doesn't the UAW buy GM ford and Chrysler....like just have them trade their pensions and retirement benefits for ownership? then they can run it the way they wanted to for decades....oopps!!! now they say it's not managements fault...lol
i know this way naive
yet if the government says yes to Autos, where to draw the line? you have Tech companies, Health care, etc will just find it easier to BK oneself and get "free money"
i like DH's idea....maybe that's the "change" he is talking about? j/k
Australian, New Zealand Dollars Slide
Japan's Economy Shrinks 0.4%, Confirming Recession
Argentina, Iceland, Hungary, Belarus, Serbia, Ukraine
Ireland Facing Deflation in 2009 for First Time in Six Decades
Canadas first budget deficit in a decade
The above links to news articles are not meant to spread doom and gloom, but rather to explain why the dollar has been and will continue to be strong relative to the currency basket.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
The other thing they brought out was that the FDIC had about 1% to cover all the deposits in the banks and that was at 100,000 per account max, now that it's at 250k it's well below a half percent. Seems the goverment is not only giving the banks money but they'll be using the FDIC to fight the battle by letting smaller banks fail which most Americans won't consider that as even being part of this whole bailout mess. We're screwed in my opinion and within a year people will be singing a different tune about the value of the dollar and how foolish PM's are. You want to see the real "tin foil" crowd you just have to look at the dollar hoarders, they have all the facts but some how this time is going to be different than anytime in the past. >>
ttown, I had to read this paragraph about three times, I'm a Marine so I'm a little slow. PM's are foolish and the dollar is strong(?)...please illuminate me.
R
<< <i>G-20 statement >>
There sure are a lot of "shoulds" in there.
I suspect they should have been doing a lot of those all along......but heh, the bonuses wouldn't have been nearly as good.
<< <i>Some people ask, "What comes first, the chicken or the egg?", I ask, "What comes first--inflation or deflation?"
W. O. W. ! Nice chart.
Not much negative change since 1933.