why do you want to stick someone with a coin they are not happy with??
I don't. I'm not involved in this or any related transaction. This thread is an educational thread designed to let people know [and obviously by the posts here there are quite a few who would think nothing of it] that if they change their mind and return a coin that they bought sight seen at a show, some or all of the following may happen:
1) The dealer will refuse to accept it 2) The dealer will accept it and then refuse to do future transactions 3) The dealer may take it back only in trade
IMO, the dealer has a reasonable expectation that a sight seen deal is a done deal - ambiguous ANA guidelines or unsubstantiated PNG return policies notwithstanding.
First of all, anyone (collector or dealer) making a multi-thousand dollar coin sight-seen had better know what they are doing....let's consider personal responsibility....go to the School of Hard Knocks with lesser material, it will lessen the inevitiable blow. If you desire an education, spend your money at the ANA Summer School.
Someone buying as TDN describes should either already understand or be 'made aware' that if you 'circle the price', it's a done deal. There are other factors which could be considered but without any specifics - it's done. As a buyer, you don't have to make a snap decision in 15-20 seconds as to grade. Dealers routinely 'buy under the lights'.....lighting is a copout. I sometimes go to Switzerland and buy RAW Swiss coins to be graded and slabbed by the TPGs; I don't go bawling back to the dealer when I make a mistake or miss a hairline....TOUGH!!! I also have never bought a Swiss coin which graded less than MS65, and PCGS made a mistake on that one....
That said, I'm like Mr. Kern....as a professional collector, I only buy what I wouldn't mind owning for the rest of my life. If I were a dealer it would be no different....it's simply my philosophy to buy the best, most eye-appealing coins I can find. Often I buy nothing because it doesn't suit. But, I always also offer to buy these Swiss coins back because I know they're nice. I've even offered full exchange for better graded material if that's what the fellow collector wants to do in the future....WHY IS THAT??
It's called do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
<< <i>why do you want to stick someone with a coin they are not happy with??
I don't. I'm not involved in this or any related transaction. This thread is an educational thread designed to let people know [and obviously by the posts here there are quite a few who would think nothing of it] that if they change their mind and return a coin that they bought sight seen at a show, some or all of the following may happen:
1) The dealer will refuse to accept it 2) The dealer will accept it and then refuse to do future transactions 3) The dealer may take it back only in trade
IMO, the dealer has a reasonable expectation that a sight seen deal is a done deal - ambiguous ANA guidelines or unsubstantiated PNG return policies notwithstanding. >>
TDN, my apologies for attributing the situation to you -- you did mention this was with another dealer.
I don't think the ANA language is ambiguous, but we would probably have to agree to disagree on that.
Finally, I agree this is a good educational thread, and I thank you for bringing the subject up.
I don't believe the 'sight-seen' no return rule should apply on sales from dealers to non-dealers. I believe all sales to collectors from dealers should have a return option regardless of the circumstances of the purchase. Dealers are supposedly considered to be sophisticated and highly knowledgeable in their trade, where collectors are not.
The executive director's office just emailed me the following:
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center>Unfortunately when I copied it, it came out as gibberish. If someone can clean it up, I will be happy to email it to them. Thanx <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: right" align=right><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"> It is not as I remember it, nor, is it as originally intended. I have asked for further clarification. I will bring it up at the next PNG meeting, if I have not been satisfied. This policy has been ammended, of that I am certain.</FONT></SPAN>
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
TDN- why does this subject ire you so? Is it because you lost $5,000 when you returned your coin to a dealer and this particuluar person we are talking about got all his money back? or did this happen to Legend and that makes you mad? mike
I'm still waiting for someone from the "Done Deal" Camp to show me the rule in writing. I made the post below 3 pages back and haven't seen any supporting evidence.
<< <i>Could someone please tell me where I can find the Done Deal rule for coin shows. I'm sure it must be prominently displayed at the coin show web sites but I can't find it. Not the FUN, ANA, Baltimore, etc. I couldn't find it my local club site, my state club site, or my regional club site. You would think that such a known rule would be easy to find.
But I know what the National Club (ANA) site has to say on the matter. Returns are acceptable. Hmmmm.....I can see why that poor collector was so confused. >>
I believe that if you see it, and then buy it, it is your own damn fault if it is not what you expected. It is not as though he bought it sight unseen, and it was misrepresented by the dealer. The dealer should not take it back.
Specifically, to reply to the topic, "How to cut ties with a dealer", that is an easy one. This is a business relationship. To end it, you simply stop buying the dealer's products. No explanation needed.
I'm still waiting for someone from the "Done Deal" Camp to show me the rule in writing.
But I know what the National Club (ANA) site has to say on the matter. Returns are acceptable.
Apparently they don't really believe all that as here are excerps from the rules the ANA itself enforces against the YN's:
10. Coins sold referencing a third party grading service are sold 'as is' without any express or implied warranty.....
11. Mail bidders may return no lots without a written request by the successful bidder and the written approval of the ANA Education Department......No certified coins may be returned because of possible differences of opinion with respect to the grade offered by any third party organization, dealer or service....No lots purchased by floor bidders may be returned.
13. All bidders who have inspected the lots prior to auction will not be granted any return privileges.
Now if the ANA [frequently quoted on this board as defenders of the return privilege] enforces 'sight seen, no return' against the YN's [arguably the group most deserving of protection], how can one truly think they mandate a sight seen return policy at a show?
I stiill do not understand why the approach I have seen over the years by time honored dealers is not the overriding and accepted norm and embraced by everyone:
I am surprised no one even thought of my old time approach! Quite frankly, it does give fair play to all parties dealer as well as collector. Of course abusers would be reined in with this approach. Market would be on an even keel. We must equate coin inventory to seasonal items with very tight return restrictions.
Of course I brought it up late.
I think that collectors should have a reasonable two week period to return a (non bullion related) coin purchased at a show BUT ONLY WITH AN EVEN EXCHANGE MEANING NO CASH REFUNDS AND CAN ONLY APPLY THE PURCHASE PRICE TOWARDS OTHER COINS AND/OR SUPPLIES THE DEALER HAS IN THEIR INVENTORY.
This would be similar to many retail stores policy of not allowing cash refunds on seasonal items but only exchanges.
It is reasonable and fair. If the dealer does not have the inventory for the collector to purchase at the time of the return then the dealer and the collector can make arrangements for the collector to look at new dealer inventory acquisitions.
Of course, dealer to dealer transactions; no returns unless authenticity or good title is involved. >>>>>>>>>>>>
This would have resolved your concerns indeed?
In a private pm a concern was brought up as the following:
<<<<<The problem with that approach is that each coin is an individual circumstance. What happens if the dealer uses the fact it's sold to go out and buy another example of the same date - and then two weeks later gets hit with the return.... The best policy for both parties is to have a clear understanding up front what the return policy is - with a default to 'no returns' on a sight seen transaction. >>>>>>>>>>>>
My response was as follows:
Any dealer would be smart enough to delay his replacement of sold coins until the return period is over. I have heard this many times. They are NOT going to buy another one at the show while the return of the first is still a possibilty.
Also if he got another coin of the same date then the collector may indeed like that one more than the intitial coin purchased.
Also, the dealer is not out any funds under my approach, Yes, once in a while may have two of the same coin in his inventory in different grades. Sometimes having a choice of two coins in different grades makes them MORE saleable. Example; key dates.
The key is cash flow. Dealers cannot be blindsided by having to offer cash refunds. This approach satisfies everyone.
But prudence is always in order. If I sell a coin, I buy a replacement within two weeks at my own risk. Most dealers will wait longer than two weeks to replace hard to sell coins.
Any dealer would be smart enough to delay his replacement of sold coins until the return period is over. I have heard this many times. They are NOT going to buy another one at the show while the return of the first is still a possibilty.
YES and especially in today's market: you SNOOZE you LOSE. Basically then a dealer's hands are tied because of a return that may never happen. UNLESS he wants to tie up wads of cash.
Bajjerfan: But that dealer is not tying up anymore money under my approach than without any return rights,
Many dealers like to stock more than one of each coin of the same date anyway.
Dealers I know, after selling the coin obtain another coin of the same date/mm on consignment from another dealer until the return period is over so that there is no snooze you loose possibility. Also without any risk of duplication of inventory.
I do not see the negatives here.
I did that back in the 1970's as a dealer. I sold coins by mail (and in person). I wanted to replace my inventory right away so I took the sets I wanted on consignment with an agreed upon price if I wanted to keep them (for resale) once my return period was over. Even the other dealer knew what I was doing. It was fine with him as well.
Most collectors that attend shows tend to pretty much know what they are doing. That said, I agree with tradedollarnut that a sight seen purchase at a show or at the office is a done deal. The only exception should be if the dealer very obviously lied or mislead the buyer with verfiably false statements of fact about a coin/coins.
There are many collectors who buy coins at shows then try to flip them for a profit at the show which is perfectly fine but at that point the "Collector" is now a vestpocket dealer and needs to hold only himself accountable for mistakes. Buying a coin sight seen, hawking it around the floor and perhaps realizing he goofed and then trying to return it by putting his "poor collector" hat back on is unacceptable.
Also, in this business their are all too many dealers out there that will find fault with ANY coin because they didn't sell it and showing any coin around the floor is always going to be an interesting excercise.
Any restriction on liquidity in the marketplace is undesirable - from both a dealer's and a collector's point of view. To a collector, less liquidity means less demand when it comes time to sell and higher prices when it comes time to buy. I know that I certainly don't want to pay a 2 week sight seen return 'tax' when both buying and selling - make no mistake, that's what the effect would be!
By the way, there is some confusion on my part. A 2 weelk return period is proper for mail sales whereas, I should have corrected myself that a 7 day return (really an exchange) policy is quite sufficient for on-site purchases.
<< <i>There are many collectors who buy coins at shows then try to flip them for a profit at the show which is perfectly fine but at that point the "Collector" is now a vestpocket dealer and needs to hold only himself accountable for mistakes. Buying a coin sight seen, hawking it around the floor and perhaps realizing he goofed and then trying to return it by putting his "poor collector" hat back on is unacceptable. >>
If a vestpocket dealer really wanted to "flip" a coin then he could approach the dealer and ask the dealer if he wanted to consign the coin to him for a few hours to see what the vestpocket dealer could do with a back up deal to buy the coin at an agreed upon price.
If the vestpocket dealer is well respected the answer could very well be yes.
If not, the answer of course would be NO!
Many well respected dealers, including those on this message boards have from time to time taken in consigned inventory. It is a reasonable extension of the way to do business.
<< <i>If a vestpocket dealer really wanted to "flip" a coin then he could approach the dealer and ask the dealer if he wanted to consign the coin to him for a few hours to see what the vestpocket dealer could do with a back up deal to buy the coin at an agreed upon price. >>
Sure, provided this was negotiated and agreed upon ahead of time. Perfectly acceptable.
I don't think we're necessarily talking about the case where this is a mutually agreed-upon arrangement.
After reading some more into this subject, I have to say that if you buy a coin with the intent of selling it at the same show for a profit, you have crossed the line into 'dealerhood' and should be denied returns. Trying to resell, shows that you have at least as much knowledge about coins as the dealers with tables, hence aren't at a disadvantage like an average collector would be. Also, you are now competing with those same dealers who paid their money and often travelled great distances to be there. Dealers who walk around on the floor instead of buying a table should be banned from shows. I know I would be mad as hell if I paid good money for a space only to have someone walking around undercutting me because they don't have any overhead to meet.
<< <i>I know I would be mad as hell if I paid good money for a space only to have someone walking around undercutting me because they don't have any overhead to meet. >>
Dealers who walk around on the floor instead of buying a table should be banned from shows. I know I would be mad as hell if I paid good money for a space only to have someone walking around undercutting me because they don't have any overhead to meet.
Actually, retail sales by vest pockets is frowned on if not outright banned by most promoters. These dealers are primarily wholesaling coins to dealers with tables. As a dealer that typically takes a table, I see no problem with this type of arrangement.
In the spirit of the title of the thread "How To Cut Ties With A Dealer", I think a lot of the posts on this thread may end up doing just that. Regardless of the "rules", buyers want to know that dealers stand behind their products, whether sight seen or unseen. This is a very reasonable view. Every dealer has their own views of what they consider to be an acceptable reason for return, and yes, there is a lot to be said for basing decisions on a case-by-case basis. However, I believe that the foundation of any scrupulous dealer's return policy should be unconditional. Overall, regardless of the reason for the return, the coin is either worth what you sold it for or not. If it's not and the customer realizes this, the dealer has an obligation to accept the return.
Education...the key to collector success! ANA#R216999 WINS#482 EAC#5255 CONECA#N-3902 Coin Community Forum
If it's shopping a coin around to other dealers, I think it's ok as long as they bring the coin with them when they walk in, but not if they buy a coin from a dealer in attendance and then try to return it later if it doesn't sell. Trying to sell to showgoers is just wrong, and should be banned.
Comments
I don't. I'm not involved in this or any related transaction. This thread is an educational thread designed to let people know [and obviously by the posts here there are quite a few who would think nothing of it] that if they change their mind and return a coin that they bought sight seen at a show, some or all of the following may happen:
1) The dealer will refuse to accept it
2) The dealer will accept it and then refuse to do future transactions
3) The dealer may take it back only in trade
IMO, the dealer has a reasonable expectation that a sight seen deal is a done deal - ambiguous ANA guidelines or unsubstantiated PNG return policies notwithstanding.
Someone buying as TDN describes should either already understand or be 'made aware' that if you 'circle the price', it's a done deal. There are other factors which could be considered but without any specifics - it's done. As a buyer, you don't have to make a snap decision in 15-20 seconds as to grade. Dealers routinely 'buy under the lights'.....lighting is a copout. I sometimes go to Switzerland and buy RAW Swiss coins to be graded and slabbed by the TPGs; I don't go bawling back to the dealer when I make a mistake or miss a hairline....TOUGH!!! I also have never bought a Swiss coin which graded less than MS65, and PCGS made a mistake on that one....
That said, I'm like Mr. Kern....as a professional collector, I only buy what I wouldn't mind owning for the rest of my life. If I were a dealer it would be no different....it's simply my philosophy to buy the best, most eye-appealing coins I can find. Often I buy nothing because it doesn't suit. But, I always also offer to buy these Swiss coins back because I know they're nice. I've even offered full exchange for better graded material if that's what the fellow collector wants to do in the future....WHY IS THAT??
It's called do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
<< <i>
Folks, you buy a coin sight seen at a coin show and it's a done deal. There is no return privilege [unless it's counterfeit]. >>
Agree 100%.
Ray
<< <i>why do you want to stick someone with a coin they are not happy with??
I don't. I'm not involved in this or any related transaction. This thread is an educational thread designed to let people know [and obviously by the posts here there are quite a few who would think nothing of it] that if they change their mind and return a coin that they bought sight seen at a show, some or all of the following may happen:
1) The dealer will refuse to accept it
2) The dealer will accept it and then refuse to do future transactions
3) The dealer may take it back only in trade
IMO, the dealer has a reasonable expectation that a sight seen deal is a done deal - ambiguous ANA guidelines or unsubstantiated PNG return policies notwithstanding. >>
TDN, my apologies for attributing the situation to you -- you did mention this was with another dealer.
I don't think the ANA language is ambiguous, but we would probably have to agree to disagree on that.
Finally, I agree this is a good educational thread, and I thank you for bringing the subject up.
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center>Unfortunately when I copied it, it came out as gibberish. If someone can clean it up, I will be happy to email it to them. Thanx
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: right" align=right><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman">
It is not as I remember it, nor, is it as originally intended. I have asked for further clarification. I will
bring it up at the next PNG meeting, if I have not been satisfied. This policy has been ammended, of that I am certain.</FONT></SPAN>
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
That doesn't make it right for a someone to return a coin after a major show.
I believe all those rules apply to mail order anyway.
Mike
<< <i>Sure, everyone quotes the rule of PNG and ANA. Big deal. >>
If that's how you feel, and you are neither a member of the PNG or the ANA, then fine.
<< <i> I believe all those rules apply to mail order anyway. >>
What, specifically, leads you to believe this?
<< <i>Could someone please tell me where I can find the Done Deal rule for coin shows. I'm sure it must be prominently displayed at the coin show web sites but I can't find it. Not the FUN, ANA, Baltimore, etc. I couldn't find it my local club site, my state club site, or my regional club site. You would think that such a known rule would be easy to find.
But I know what the National Club (ANA) site has to say on the matter. Returns are acceptable. Hmmmm.....I can see why that poor collector was so confused. >>
Specifically, to reply to the topic, "How to cut ties with a dealer", that is an easy one. This is a business relationship. To end it, you simply stop buying the dealer's products. No explanation needed.
AMOR VINCIT OM
The Estate Of Dustin T. Wonders
But I know what the National Club (ANA) site has to say on the matter. Returns are acceptable.
Apparently they don't really believe all that as here are excerps from the rules the ANA itself enforces against the YN's:
10. Coins sold referencing a third party grading service are sold 'as is' without any express or implied warranty.....
11. Mail bidders may return no lots without a written request by the successful bidder and the written approval of the ANA Education Department......No certified coins may be returned because of possible differences of opinion with respect to the grade offered by any third party organization, dealer or service....No lots purchased by floor bidders may be returned.
13. All bidders who have inspected the lots prior to auction will not be granted any return privileges.
Now if the ANA [frequently quoted on this board as defenders of the return privilege] enforces 'sight seen, no return' against the YN's [arguably the group most deserving of protection], how can one truly think they mandate a sight seen return policy at a show?
Hardly sounds like a mandate; seems more like an option to me.
I am surprised no one even thought of my old time approach! Quite frankly, it does give fair play to all parties dealer as well as collector. Of course abusers would be reined in with this approach. Market would be on an even keel. We must equate coin inventory to seasonal items with very tight return restrictions.
Of course I brought it up late.
I think that collectors should have a reasonable two week period to return a (non bullion related) coin purchased at a show BUT ONLY WITH AN EVEN EXCHANGE MEANING NO CASH REFUNDS AND CAN ONLY APPLY THE PURCHASE PRICE TOWARDS OTHER COINS AND/OR SUPPLIES THE DEALER HAS IN THEIR INVENTORY.
This would be similar to many retail stores policy of not allowing cash refunds on seasonal items but only exchanges.
It is reasonable and fair. If the dealer does not have the inventory for the collector to purchase at the time of the return then the dealer and the collector can make arrangements for the collector to look at new dealer inventory acquisitions.
Of course, dealer to dealer transactions; no returns unless authenticity or good title is involved. >>>>>>>>>>>>
This would have resolved your concerns indeed?
In a private pm a concern was brought up as the following:
<<<<<The problem with that approach is that each coin is an individual circumstance. What happens if the dealer uses the fact it's sold to go out and buy another example of the same date - and then two weeks later gets hit with the return....
The best policy for both parties is to have a clear understanding up front what the return policy is - with a default to 'no returns' on a sight seen transaction. >>>>>>>>>>>>
My response was as follows:
Any dealer would be smart enough to delay his replacement of sold coins until the return period is over. I have heard this many times. They are NOT going to buy another one at the show while the return of the first is still a possibilty.
Also if he got another coin of the same date then the collector may indeed like that one more than the intitial coin purchased.
Also, the dealer is not out any funds under my approach, Yes, once in a while may have two of the same coin in his inventory in different grades. Sometimes having a choice of two coins in different grades makes them MORE saleable. Example; key dates.
The key is cash flow. Dealers cannot be blindsided by having to offer cash refunds. This approach satisfies everyone.
But prudence is always in order. If I sell a coin, I buy a replacement within two weeks at my own risk. Most dealers will wait longer than two weeks to replace hard to sell coins.
YES and especially in today's market: you SNOOZE you LOSE. Basically then a dealer's hands are tied because of a return that may never happen. UNLESS he wants to tie up wads of cash.
Many dealers like to stock more than one of each coin of the same date anyway.
Dealers I know, after selling the coin obtain another coin of the same date/mm on consignment from another dealer until the return period is over so that there is no snooze you loose possibility. Also without any risk of duplication of inventory.
I do not see the negatives here.
I did that back in the 1970's as a dealer. I sold coins by mail (and in person). I wanted to replace my inventory right away so I took the sets I wanted on consignment with an agreed upon price if I wanted to keep them (for resale) once my return period was over. Even the other dealer knew what I was doing. It was fine with him as well.
There are many collectors who buy coins at shows then try to flip them for a profit at the show which is perfectly fine but at that point the "Collector" is now a vestpocket dealer and needs to hold only himself accountable for mistakes. Buying a coin sight seen, hawking it around the floor and perhaps realizing he goofed and then trying to return it by putting his "poor collector" hat back on is unacceptable.
Also, in this business their are all too many dealers out there that will find fault with ANY coin because they didn't sell it and showing any coin around the floor is always going to be an interesting excercise.
<< <i>There are many collectors who buy coins at shows then try to flip them for a profit at the show which is perfectly fine but at that point the "Collector" is now a vestpocket dealer and needs to hold only himself accountable for mistakes. Buying a coin sight seen, hawking it around the floor and perhaps realizing he goofed and then trying to return it by putting his "poor collector" hat back on is unacceptable. >>
If a vestpocket dealer really wanted to "flip" a coin then he could approach the dealer and ask the dealer if he wanted to consign the coin to him for a few hours to see what the vestpocket dealer could do with a back up deal to buy the coin at an agreed upon price.
If the vestpocket dealer is well respected the answer could very well be yes.
If not, the answer of course would be NO!
Many well respected dealers, including those on this message boards have from time to time taken in consigned inventory. It is a reasonable extension of the way to do business.
<< <i>If a vestpocket dealer really wanted to "flip" a coin then he could approach the dealer and ask the dealer if he wanted to consign the coin to him for a few hours to see what the vestpocket dealer could do with a back up deal to buy the coin at an agreed upon price. >>
Sure, provided this was negotiated and agreed upon ahead of time. Perfectly acceptable.
I don't think we're necessarily talking about the case where this is a mutually agreed-upon arrangement.
<< <i>I know I would be mad as hell if I paid good money for a space only to have someone walking around undercutting me because they don't have any overhead to meet. >>
Then you sure won't make many sales.
Cameron Kiefer
Actually, retail sales by vest pockets is frowned on if not outright banned by most promoters. These dealers are primarily wholesaling coins to dealers with tables. As a dealer that typically takes a table, I see no problem with this type of arrangement.
WH
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