Too little info to jump on this. Very one-sided. Seems that people are taking "showing the coin around" to be "shopping the coin around"......is this true? Was that what was done?
I have bought a few coins at shows that, later, I wasn't sure I wanted. But, I kept them. I didn't feel it was worth the time/money/hassle to return them. I would like to think that someone I buy coins from would honor a return within a few days/a week.
Sounds to me like this was either a new customer to the dealer, a low profit customer, or someone not wanted anyway. How much time/effort did the dealer put into this customer for the sale? How much profit? (was it a rip OF the customer?) What WAS the reason given for the return? If the dealer is scared of getting flamed on a chatroom for not taking the return, was there anything wrong with the transaction/coin? Was there disagreement and this was threatened?
Sorry TDN......too much LACK of information on this one. Sure looks damning from the dealer point of view, but you haven't given anything from the other side of the fence for this. Though, for some, especially dealers/sellers, it seems that no reason/circumstances is enough for such a heinous crime as returning a coin bought during a show.
btw....I believe even car sales are not "final" for ~3 days. Someone can agree/correct me on this, but I do believe that if I buy a car, drive off the lot, I still have a couple of days to return it (and pay any reasonable fees (mileage or whatnot) if I change my mind. If that is true, then a coin should be the same.
<< <i>"Only unreasonable people attempt to return a coin they bought sight seen from a dealer. "
Excuse me? Are you aware that the reason this hobby has been HOT is because of the NEW collectors that have entered? Am I to understand that, by your statement, you are lumping all of the newbie/rookie collectors in with the more experienced/knowledgeable veteran collectors? Should all of the newbie/rookie collectors be expected to know all of the rules/intricacies of the hobby immediately upon purchasing their first coin? >>
In my opinion, a newbie should have gained enough knowledge before making purchases where having to return a coin would be necessary. Do you really believe that coins bought at shows should be returnable for the purchase price? Is it the dealer's fault the buyer doesn't know what he is doing?
Ron, you are confusing a purchase contract with an outright purchase. If you walked into a car dealer, and bought a car outright without a purchase contract, you could not return it for a full refund.
I have always bought with a contract so you are most likely right about that.
I still don't think like pure absolutes and think that it would be better to have more info on the issue at hand (and, I am not taking sides until/unless more info is given, so no comment).
A) Dealers are professional, novice collectors are not. Professionals in many businesses are held to higher standard than the novice.
Dealer to dealer transaction are different than dealer to collector. It is assumed that dealers should know what they are doing and not expect a refund. One of the drawbacks to selling to the novice is the refund requests, the benefits are the increased prices they get for subpar coins when dealer day is over and the public shows up.
C) There is no requirement that the dealer take the coin back. If he choses to in order to maintain his status in the collector community thats fine, if he says no, thats his right, if the collector wished to trash him for it, thats his right. It a simple business decision for the dealer. If the price was fair the dealer should not have a big issue with it.
D) I doubt if the collector would be asking for a refund if the other dealers told him the coin was nice or even OK for the money. Most likely he found he paid a premium for a subpar coin, or maybe he found out what I learned a long time ago, "At a coin show, there's no such thing as PQ when you're selling."
In your opinion, what is that "sense of finality" for a show purchase? However you choose to respond, please explain your thoughts. Also, if you wish, please tell us if that "sense" includes or precludes showing the coin around for the balance of the day/show (whatever) and then deciding to return the coin >>
Unfortunately there can be no hard and fast rule here as there are a myriad of facts and circumstances, and there are equities to balance on both the dealer’s side and the collector’s side. Certainly if the collector saw things in the coin that he missed on the bourse floor–flaws such as hairlines or haze, or colors that seem muted or different--that would be a factor in favor of a return. Frankly, finding out that the coin was just an over-graded overpriced dog would weigh in the collector’s favor.
Now if after the show the collector got a call from a competing dealer with the same coin at a better price, I would agree with TDN and other that the collector would be abusing a privilege if he returned the coin.
A tougher call comes when the collector “settles” on a coin at the show after searching around for the best one he can find, but afterward locates a higher grade coin, at a higher price. Here he is upgrading, but not just trying to get a better deal elsewhere. If done in good faith, I would probably tip the scale for the collector, but then I said before that I have a bias for the collector as opposed to the dealer since the collector in most cases has much less expertise and much less access to market information.
Again, the time factor is important. Any return would have t o be made promptly–certainly within the time frame the dealer would allow a return of a coin sent by mail for a sale on approval.
And finally, I would be the first to say that if a collector is not certain at the bourse table he should ask the dealer up front for a return privilege, and if the dealer is reluctant to sell it off the floor that way they should certainly be able to agree that if the coin is still unsold at the end of the show, the dealer will ship it to the customer on approval with the dealer’s normal return privilege applying.
But let me also say that if the dealer allows a 5 day return right and a coin shows up on the 6th day, I would expect the dealer to take it back.
I still think a buyer should have some knowledge about what he is buying, especially if the coin in question is expensive. I'm not taking sides in this particular situation, but it has always been my experience that coins bought at shows are done deals, so you should be absolutely sure you know what you are doing before you lay out loads of cash for a coin at a show.
I don't want anyone to confuse my opinion here to buying coins online through direct sales, websites, or auctions. I will take a return on any coin I sell online, and insist on the same when I buy that way.
"At a coin show, there's no such thing as PQ when you're selling."
Exactly. Has anyone ever shown a coin they bought to another dealer and had them say "that was a great purchase - who sold it to you?"
Whether one finds it acceptable in their mind or not is certainly not the point of the thread. The point of the thread is that if you try to return a coin in this circumstance [certainly if you do it more than once] then you are more than likely done with that dealer. If you want to smooth it over, then ask them to treat you fair and see what they can do.
Eric you are batting your head against a stone wall just as I did earlier.
Damn the collector is always correct. Thats it folks and never forget it. It is probably best that a collector should never learn anything. Depend on the dealer making everything Okay for you. ...
>Exactly. Has anyone ever shown a coin they bought to another dealer and had them say "that was a great purchase - who sold it to you?"
Once. I bought a very nice 2c and a dealer I was showing it off to (he's a nice guy so I was sharing what I had) wanted to buy it off of me for at least 1 grade higher than the slab grade. It's a 62 (really 63) and he thought even possible 64. I kept the coin, though.
Overall, for this scenario here I still reserve judgment because there aren't enough facts. Although I agree with the person earlier who said that dealers would do well to have a sign saying "all sales final except by agreement." That would solve much.
So have I, stman, but it's usually 20-1 the other way. Immediate talkdown of the coin - doesn't matter where it came from. Dealers know that if you walk away from the table to show the coin elsewhere odds are that you'll never buy it.....
One last point - I actually find it ironic that so many blasted the poor guy who had to retract his bids at Heritage [well in advance, I might add], yet see nothing wrong with reversing a sight seen coin sale....
<< <i>So have I, stman, but it's usually 20-1 the other way. Immediate talkdown of the coin - doesn't matter where it came from. Dealers know that if you walk away from the table to show the coin elsewhere odds are that you'll never buy it..... >>
Agreed
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
Could someone please tell me where I can find the Done Deal rule for coin shows. I'm sure it must be prominently displayed at the coin show web sites but I can't find it. Not the FUN, ANA, Baltimore, etc. I couldn't find it my local club site, my state club site, or my regional club site. You would think that such a known rule would be easy to find.
But I know what the National Club (ANA) site has to say on the matter. Returns are acceptable. Hmmmm.....I can see why that poor collector was so confused.
I hold the dealer to a higher standard. In most every case, if this is not a repeat thing with one customer, take the coin back. Dealers have so much in their favor it's not funny.
On numerous occasions I've had people show me coins at shows and I could care less about whether I ever sell them something or not. I tell them exactly what I think of their coin....good or bad. If they got a great deal, I'd love to know the source. And if not, "is your coin for sale?"
People buy things sight seen everyday, not just coins and are allowed to return them. Why should coins be any different? There are laws to protect consumers in every state and consumers have the right to use them at their discretion. Why should coin dealers be exempt from consumer protection laws? I also agree with what Mr Eureka pointed out. If you are an ANA member and you are selling coins, then you must honor the ANA dealer code of ethics and allow no questions asked returns for the period stated in the code. Is it really worth the hassle of going before an ANA mediator and possibily losing your credentials because you violated the code?
You look at a coin, you buy it, internet auctions also, you pay for whatever arena you buy the coin in, of course it's a done deal. Don't buy it if you don't appreciate the view or hire someone to look at it for you________________BigE
The answer depends upon the terms of the sale IMO.
If the parties had agreed on an unconditional right to return within X days, a deal is a deal and a refund should be forthcoming.
If it was expressly sold without a return privilege, the buyer's SOL except for authenticity.
Most deals fall in the middle, hence the dispute arena. The dealer who wants repeat biz accepts the return. The dealer who wants to stick to his (former) customer sez SOL. Which dealer would you want to deal with?
If a collector whores a coin around to get opinions, solicte profit offers, I might not accept it back
I agree with you I wouldn't take it back either if that was the case. Collectors and Dealers need to be responsible for there own actions.
If I walk up to a dealers table and exam the coin and like it enough to buy it, as far as I am concerned the deal is done.
If I buy a coin on ebay and the coin dosen't look like the picture or match the description then I expect that I should be able to return it
My daughter was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at the age of 2 (2003). My son was diagnosed with Type 1 when he was 17 on December 31, 2009. We were stunned that another child of ours had been diagnosed. Please, if you don't have a favorite charity, consider giving to the JDRF (Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation)
Perhaps people who are flat out stealing on E-Bay should be held to a different standard than those who are simply lying----------------------------BigE
I think that the title of the thread is quite draconian and belies the subtlely of the point that is being made.
I would agree with the assumption that a coin show purchase is a done deal. There are many reasons why this is different from the mail order purchase as discussed by other posters (collectors and dealers alike) in this thread. I have a few additional points that I would bring up from my own personal experience.
1. The lighting in most shows sucks! The coins almost always look different when you take them outside. Where color, luster, and/or toning is an issue (and when is one or more of these not an issue?), the bourse floor is about the worst place to look at a coin.
2. There is a big--no, HUGE--difference between a collector buying a coin at a show for his collection and wishing to trade it back a month later for something more in keeping with his collecting theme AND a collector/investor buying a coin at a show from a dealer with the intent of selling it on the same bourse floor. To me, the first is acceptable to some degree and the second is not. There is probably a lot of gray in between.
3. Sometimes a dealer will let you look at the "newps" at a show, the ones he/she intends to sell to the customer base back home. If you buy one of these, show it around, and take it back, you have really hosed the dealer and may have made it more difficult to get the coin sold.
4. As in all coin (and other) transactions, let your conscience be your guide. If there is any question about the transaction, put yourself in the other's position, and see if you think it is fair. If there is any hesitation, chances are it is not reasonable or at the very least, the dealer is doing you a favor by taking the coin back. Keep track of how many "favors" the dealer does for you and see if you can do some favors for the dealer to even things out.
<< <i>Dealers know that if you walk away from the table to show the coin elsewhere odds are that you'll never buy it..... >>
How true......This happens all the time. It's OK though, and, as a dealer, it's something you live with. From what I can gather in this thread, collectors seem to think that dealers simply live their lives ripping coins and foisting them on the poor, unsuspecting collector. As I ponder this, it's kind of sad.... Maybe there will be a new catagory of jokes soon......Like blond jokes, lawyer jokes, now coin dealer jokes...... Paul
I got outbid on a 15 coin early commemorative lot in the Goldberg sale last week and I know I could have sold them for more than the dealer who bought them did---------------------------BigE
My unsolicited opinion is that unless there was a gross misrepresentation of the coin at the time of purchase it is a done deal. To return it after hawking it around the show is highly unethical in my world.
<< <i>Sorry, I have no specifics. In my mind, it didn't matter. >>
To me specifics really should matter:
If a dealer proudly displays an "ANA Member" sign at their table and doesn't specifically state in writing that there is no return priviledge then I think the buyer really does have a legitimate expectation for the dealer to abide by the code of ethics that is propagated by the ANA.
(By the way, if the same "ANA Member" regularly allows returns for sight seen sales in the brick and mortar shop, should they behave in a completely different manner at a show?)
You also stated in the initial post that the buyer showed it around to others on the bourse. There was no mention of attempts to sell or flip the coin. If there was, say, a liner coin that didn't look great on the bourse, or looked significantly different under that dealers light, that began to look, for instance, on the underside of the line after showing/talking to several knowledgeable dealers that had seen the coin. And perhaps the dealer, tired from all the shows this year, decided to leave early to get some rest before having to board up the house from Ivan, so when the buyer came back already unhappy with the purchase at the show the cases were empty and the table abandoned....
I guess all I'm saying is that right or wrong, if a dealer signs that little piece of paper that makes them an "ANA Dealer" they really should think twice about making a fuss over returns that should be no-brainers.
(although, to be honest, i can't see myself ever actually doing such a thing.)
and a little ps. for Laura: If you really don't believe the ANA does anything for the "hobby" (aka, the business that puts food on your table) you maybe should take a trip to Colorado Springs and take a stroll through the library or museum, or pick up a copy of "The Numismatist" or possibly even take part somehow in the summer seminar program that has seen so many of the professional members of this board making positive contributions by way of donating their time/talent/expertise and yes, simply their love of numismatics.
see coinguy, i'm not only a collector basher..........
I agree it was a done deal...but if I was the dealer I wouldn't be THAT upset. After all, I've just learned about someone (collector) whom I'll never deal with again....and it didn't cost me any money to learn the lesson. In my business (and most others I believe) if we can undo our bad decsions (or bad luck), or identify the bad players in our industry, without it costing us any money, we should feel pretty lucky. Most of the time it costs you money to acquire that information.
After returning this coin, this individual would get no consideration again and god forbid should he pay full freight for another coin I had, he wouldn't get the coin in hand until there was a clear verbalization that this was a 'done deal' and I wouldn't take any 'sight seen' returns like last time.
Some dealers that I have met play the religious and pious angle, very convincingly. They quote the scriptures, claim to be a true christian all the while plotting to ram a plunger up ones ass.
What the heck, I had a deal with Jonathan Kern four years ago in which I bought an 1856 FE cent in PCGS AU-50 S-3 in the older green insert. He gave me a two year full money back guaranttee since, as he said, he would love to have that coin back some day.
I suspect that he would gladly extend that full money back guarantee through the end of this year as well as next year as well at no additional charge!
So to say that all dealers are not as good as the retail stores honoring the 30 day money back guarantee then here is one dealer that gave me a 730 day money back guarantee.
I'm a little late in reading this thread, so hopefully I'm not bringing up something already said (I'm on page 1). TDN said:
<< <i>Folks, you buy a coin sight seen at a coin show and it's a done deal. There is no return privilege [unless it's counterfeit]. >>
I don't agree. Often, lighting at shows are awful, and flaws cannot be seen until the coin is home and looked at under better conditions. Would you ask PCGS to grade a coin at a dealer's table?
I once bought a coin at a local show, got it home, took another look and realized it was whizzed. I explained to the dealer, he took it back without a hassle.
Are we talking a collector here or another dealer? If he walked it around the show it sounds more like a dealer or a dealer/collector. Or was it a nervous newbie trying to get reassurance he got a good deal?( I have seen this many times). Regardless if it was a standup coin sold at a fair price the dealer should have no problem taking it back from a collector that paid retail. If it was a dealer even a dealer/collector I would call it a DONE DEAL. mike
The ANA code of ethics states clearly what a dealer's return privilege should be. If a dealer represents him/her self as an ANA member then he/she should abide by such code. I don't see any exception for bourse floor sight-seen trading. I don't understand whay so many posters on this thread have a problem with the ANA code of ethics, unless they have a problem with the ANA in general (which one person appeared to).
Anyway, if the deal was fair and the coin is desirable, why would the dealer not take it back and sell it to someone else? The customer might appreciate taking the coin back and do future business with the dealer. If the customer repeatedly returns coins, then the dealer can choose not to do business with the customer.
Forgive me, but the ANA code of ethics is clearly written toward mail order and [IMO] does not apply to retail sight seen sales of certified coins. Period.
Ever try to return a coin you bought sight seen out of auction? Good luck. And what is the difference between that and returning a coin you bought sight seen at a show....
This thread is really fascinating because it says so much about attitudes in this business. I am a little surprised that this post came from TDN; there must be more not stated that raised his ire. I must say that I am picky about my purchases and even pickier about those I deal with. <<< BTW, My dealings with Legend have always been excellent>>>> I really do not understand why a business with high ethical standards would not stand by their product. If I bought a coin from a dealer selling under a retail umbrella at a show and after further review found a fault not recognized earlier and returned a coin within a reasonable time (ie 5days), I would think a refund is reasonable. Any dealer that would not accept the coin back under these circumstances must not think much of their product. I can see that there are exceptions and they could be stated up front. Now I do not think the dealer has a legal obligation to provide the refund but good will is what a successful dealer is looking for. The issue of asking other peoples opinions does not seem to fall into the description of "whoring"; an experienced purchaser will not need much validation, a less experienced one may need help. If the inexperienced purchaser asked a half dozen people their opinion and they all said this was a poor quality coin for the price then their must be a problem. If I were the dealer, I would not want to have sold an inferior product to a disgruntled customer. I do have a caveat: As a dealer, I would not wish to service a customer that was trying to turn a coin at the show and returns the merchandice that could not be sold for a refund; this is a different situation as in this case he/she is serving the role of a dealer and essentially trying to sell merchandice with no risk. I guess the message is that the coin market is not the friendliest place and buyer beware. I strongly suggest that things that are too good to be true are usually not. Find dealers that you trust , develop a comfortable relationship and buy judiciously.
I am a little surprised that this post came from TDN
Depends on how you look at it. Are you surprised that I believe in keeping commitments [and make no mistake that buying a certified coin sight seen is making a commitment]? Are you surprised that, as a businessman, I look at things sometimes from a business point of view? Are you surprised that I would think that a collector who made the decision to buy a coin can simply change his mind at any point in the future and return the coin - for no reason other than he changed his mind? Are you suprised that the point of this thread was to educate people as to the possible consequences of their actions, even if a dealer graciously takes the coin back?
<< <i> Are you suprised that the point of this thread was to educate people as to the possible consequences of their actions, even if a dealer graciously takes the coin back? >>
As a businessman, though, I'd imagine that you'd also believe that for the right customer, one who gives you a lot of business and referrals, and who doesn't abuse the privilege, it would probably be "bad business" not to accept a return once in a while, even if there was no really good reason for the return. The desire to keep the customer happy and the business relationship continuing is likely well worth it on occasion.
Obviously if you have a customer (collector) who abuses "return privileges" or the dealer's goodwill in accepting returns, at some point you'd want to put your foot down and stop accepting them. Given the headache that kind of customer can be, if you lose them, no big loss. But I think just about anyone in the business world who wants to nurture long-term, profitable relationships with their "better" customers would be foolish not to cut a little slack once in a while. Not that returning a sight-seen coin should be a God-given right, but an *occasional* privilege to good customers would be foolish, IMO, not to grant.
PNG dealers accept returns for fourteen days from the public.
The public cannot be abused. All dealers should recognize that. If a collector abuses the dealer, the dealer can choose not to do business with the collector.
Dealers, for the most part, are intelligent businessmen and understand the above. The ones that do not should try to understand it.
After reading more of the thread, I must stress that this is a hobby for the public. It may be an investment, as well. If the collector/investor is trying to turn an immediate profit, s/he may be held to a different standard, but the bottom line is that they are still the ultimate consumer. Dealers must continue to recognize that.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
Very well stated, Ziggy. There are obviously going to be cases where the customer is blatantly wrong or the circumstances completely unreasonable. An intelligent dealer can make case-by-case decisions. I still firmly believe that it is the responsibility of the dealer to stand behind his product and be willing to accept returns with few exceptions, but recognizing that those exceptions exist.
Education...the key to collector success! ANA#R216999 WINS#482 EAC#5255 CONECA#N-3902 Coin Community Forum
I don't get it, I WISH that most of the coins I've sold in the past were returned to me now for a full no questions asked refund regardless of the amount of time that has passed, LOL.
Oh....I forgot to add: Sometimes you show a coin(s) to a dealer who tells you they don't really like them, they're nothing special, and they're not really interested in buying them........until you mention that you had purchased them from that dealer who sold them to you as PQ+ coins at a large premium, so I guess it works both ways.
Professional Numismatists Guild membership standards are strict. One of the requirements is an agreement to adhere to the Code of Ethics. Each PNG member takes the following pledge:
1. To furnish advice to my non-professional customers on numismatic matters to the best of my ability. 2. To deliver coins that I sell promptly unless otherwise agreed in writing between myself and my customer. 3. To pay for coins I have purchased promptly unless otherwise agreed in writing between myself and my customer. 4. To refrain from publishing any misrepresentations relating to the prices, quality or guarantees attached to my merchandise or that of my competitors. 5. To assist governmental authorities in investigating and prosecuting dealers in numismatic items when appropriate. 6. To refrain from knowingly dealing in stolen numismatic items. 7. To refrain from knowingly dealing in counterfeit, altered or repaired numismatic items without fully disclosing their status to my customers. 8. To grade coins accurately to the best of my ability and in accordance with recognized industry standards (or disclose fully my particular grading standards and how they may differ from recognized industry standards). 9. To refrain from any of the following in dealing with non-professional customers: (a) buying or selling at unreasonable prices; (b) using high pressure sales techniques; (c) using misleading performance data; (d) comparing coins graded by a fringe grading service with those graded by an industry standard independent grading service in a way calculated to create an inaccurate impression; (e) intentionally misrepresenting the origin, provenance or pedigree of a coin; (f) intentionally misrepresenting the weight of a coin; (g) intentionally misrepresenting the value of a coin. (h) intentionally misrepresenting the investment potential of coins; (i) intentionally misrepresenting an affiliation between myself and any Government agency. 10. To make an oral or written disclosure to my retail customers that (a) the coin market is speculative and unregulated; (b) many areas of numismatics lend themselves to third-party grading and authentication; (c) certification does not eliminate all risks associated with the grading of coins; and (d) as a PNG member, I am obliged to arbitrate any dispute relating to the purchase, sale or trade of coins and numismatic items. 11. To respect my contracts with fellow PNG members, whether written or oral. 12. To respect my fellow members' contracts with third parties and not interfere with same. 13. To freely exchange non-proprietary information with my fellow members when requested to do so. 14. To refrain from intentionally defaming the character of a fellow member or the quality of that member's products or services for commercial advantage. 15. To give evidence at PNG arbitrations upon request. 16. To honor the provisions of PNG arbitration awards to which I am a party. 17. If I am in the business of conducting public auctions of numismatic items, to abide by guidelines issued from time to time by the PNG Board.
The collector went around and showed the coin expecting to get validation that he got a good deal.. Of course the dealers, thinking the coin might be for sale, wouldn't acknowledge that it was PQ, buying PQ coins at sheet is how they make thier nut. So they said, "Its OK, nothing special, how much you want for it?" Now after 5 of those the collector thinks he paid PQ money for an average coin. Which , BTW, maybe he did. All coins are "PQ" when they are selling to a novice and "just OK" when the novice is selling.
Reminds me of the days before grading services. Each coin had 2 grades, The buyers and the sellers. Today its the PQ game. Has anyone here every gotten PQ money from a dealer they didn't know while at a coin show? Has a dealer you didn't know every said the coin you were selling was PQ?
This collector got "worked over " at the "show game" and wanted to get his money back, is that so bad, even though he may or may not have gotten a decent deal.
I edited an earlier post, Bruce, about dealers' relationship with the public. I am unable to find the return policy on the PNG site.
However, we do have a return policy for the public. It was 30 days, and eventually eroded to fourteen days.
I will attempt to get it clarified ASAP.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
<< <i>Forgive me, but the ANA code of ethics is clearly written toward mail order and [IMO] does not apply to retail sight seen sales of certified coins. Period.
Ever try to return a coin you bought sight seen out of auction? Good luck. And what is the difference between that and returning a coin you bought sight seen at a show.... >>
I do not see anywhere in the code that states it applies to mail order business only. Your interpretation that is does appears to be a stretch, and a large one at that.
In any event, why do you want to stick someone with a coin they are not happy with??
Comments
Seems that people are taking "showing the coin around" to be "shopping the coin around"......is this true? Was that what was done?
I have bought a few coins at shows that, later, I wasn't sure I wanted. But, I kept them. I didn't feel it was worth the time/money/hassle to return them. I would like to think that someone I buy coins from would honor a return within a few days/a week.
Sounds to me like this was either a new customer to the dealer, a low profit customer, or someone not wanted anyway.
How much time/effort did the dealer put into this customer for the sale?
How much profit? (was it a rip OF the customer?)
What WAS the reason given for the return?
If the dealer is scared of getting flamed on a chatroom for not taking the return, was there anything wrong with the transaction/coin?
Was there disagreement and this was threatened?
Sorry TDN......too much LACK of information on this one. Sure looks damning from the dealer point of view, but you haven't given anything from the other side of the fence for this.
Though, for some, especially dealers/sellers, it seems that no reason/circumstances is enough for such a heinous crime as returning a coin bought during a show.
btw....I believe even car sales are not "final" for ~3 days. Someone can agree/correct me on this, but I do believe that if I buy a car, drive off the lot, I still have a couple of days to return it (and pay any reasonable fees (mileage or whatnot) if I change my mind. If that is true, then a coin should be the same.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>"Only unreasonable people attempt to return a coin they bought sight seen from a dealer. "
Excuse me? Are you aware that the reason this hobby has been HOT is because of the NEW collectors that have entered? Am I to understand that, by your statement, you are lumping all of the newbie/rookie collectors in with the more experienced/knowledgeable veteran collectors? Should all of the newbie/rookie collectors be expected to know all of the rules/intricacies of the hobby immediately upon purchasing their first coin? >>
In my opinion, a newbie should have gained enough knowledge before making purchases where having to return a coin would be necessary. Do you really believe that coins bought at shows should be returnable for the purchase price? Is it the dealer's fault the buyer doesn't know what he is doing?
I have always bought with a contract so you are most likely right about that.
I still don't think like pure absolutes and think that it would be better to have more info on the issue at hand (and, I am not taking sides until/unless more info is given, so no comment).
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
C) There is no requirement that the dealer take the coin back. If he choses to in order to maintain his status in the collector community thats fine, if he says no, thats his right, if the collector wished to trash him for it, thats his right. It a simple business decision for the dealer. If the price was fair the dealer should not have a big issue with it.
D) I doubt if the collector would be asking for a refund if the other dealers told him the coin was nice or even OK for the money. Most likely he found he paid a premium for a subpar coin, or maybe he found out what I learned a long time ago, "At a coin show, there's no such thing as PQ when you're selling."
Now where did i put that RETRACT MY BID button ?
<< <i>CalGold (or anyone else),
In your opinion, what is that "sense of finality" for a show purchase? However you choose to respond, please explain your thoughts. Also, if you wish, please tell us if that "sense" includes or precludes showing the coin around for the balance of the day/show (whatever) and then deciding to return the coin >>
Unfortunately there can be no hard and fast rule here as there are a myriad of facts and circumstances, and there are equities to balance on both the dealer’s side and the collector’s side. Certainly if the collector saw things in the coin that he missed on the bourse floor–flaws such as hairlines or haze, or colors that seem muted or different--that would be a factor in favor of a return. Frankly, finding out that the coin was just an over-graded overpriced dog would weigh in the collector’s favor.
Now if after the show the collector got a call from a competing dealer with the same coin at a better price, I would agree with TDN and other that the collector would be abusing a privilege if he returned the coin.
A tougher call comes when the collector “settles” on a coin at the show after searching around for the best one he can find, but afterward locates a higher grade coin, at a higher price. Here he is upgrading, but not just trying to get a better deal elsewhere. If done in good faith, I would probably tip the scale for the collector, but then I said before that I have a bias for the collector as opposed to the dealer since the collector in most cases has much less expertise and much less access to market information.
Again, the time factor is important. Any return would have t o be made promptly–certainly within the time frame the dealer would allow a return of a coin sent by mail for a sale on approval.
And finally, I would be the first to say that if a collector is not certain at the bourse table he should ask the dealer up front for a return privilege, and if the dealer is reluctant to sell it off the floor that way they should certainly be able to agree that if the coin is still unsold at the end of the show, the dealer will ship it to the customer on approval with the dealer’s normal return privilege applying.
But let me also say that if the dealer allows a 5 day return right and a coin shows up on the 6th day, I would expect the dealer to take it back.
And with that said, I bid you all a good evening.
CG
I don't want anyone to confuse my opinion here to buying coins online through direct sales, websites, or auctions. I will take a return on any coin I sell online, and insist on the same when I buy that way.
Exactly. Has anyone ever shown a coin they bought to another dealer and had them say "that was a great purchase - who sold it to you?"
Whether one finds it acceptable in their mind or not is certainly not the point of the thread. The point of the thread is that if you try to return a coin in this circumstance [certainly if you do it more than once] then you are more than likely done with that dealer. If you want to smooth it over, then ask them to treat you fair and see what they can do.
Just a word to the wise.
Damn the collector is always correct. Thats it folks and never forget it. It is probably best that a collector should never learn anything. Depend on the dealer making everything Okay for you. ...
Ken
<< <i>Exactly. Has anyone ever shown a coin they bought to another dealer and had them say "that was a great purchase - who sold it to you?" >>
Actually YES.
Once. I bought a very nice 2c and a dealer I was showing it off to (he's a nice guy so I was sharing what I had) wanted to buy it off of me for at least 1 grade higher than the slab grade. It's a 62 (really 63) and he thought even possible 64. I kept the coin, though.
Overall, for this scenario here I still reserve judgment because there aren't enough facts. Although I agree with the person earlier who said that dealers would do well to have a sign saying "all sales final except by agreement." That would solve much.
<< <i>So have I, stman, but it's usually 20-1 the other way. Immediate talkdown of the coin - doesn't matter where it came from. Dealers know that if you walk away from the table to show the coin elsewhere odds are that you'll never buy it..... >>
Agreed
But I know what the National Club (ANA) site has to say on the matter. Returns are acceptable. Hmmmm.....I can see why that poor collector was so confused.
On numerous occasions I've had people show me coins at shows and I could care less about whether I ever sell them something or not. I tell them exactly what I think of their coin....good or bad. If they got a great deal, I'd love to know the source. And if not, "is your coin for sale?"
roadrunner
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
If the parties had agreed on an unconditional right to return within X days, a deal is a deal and a refund should be forthcoming.
If it was expressly sold without a return privilege, the buyer's SOL except for authenticity.
Most deals fall in the middle, hence the dispute arena. The dealer who wants repeat biz accepts the return. The dealer who wants to stick to his (former) customer sez SOL. Which dealer would you want to deal with?
I agree with you I wouldn't take it back either if that was the case. Collectors and Dealers need to be responsible for there own actions.
If I walk up to a dealers table and exam the coin and like it enough to buy it, as far as I am concerned the deal is done.
If I buy a coin on ebay and the coin dosen't look like the picture or match the description then I expect that I should be able to return it
My daughter was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at the age of 2 (2003). My son was diagnosed with Type 1 when he was 17 on December 31, 2009. We were stunned that another child of ours had been diagnosed. Please, if you don't have a favorite charity, consider giving to the JDRF (Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation)
JDRF Donation
<< <i>If a collector whores a coin around to get opinions, solicte profit offers, I might not accept it back
I agree with you I wouldn't take it back either if that was the case. Collectors and Dealers need to be responsible for there own actions.
If I walk up to a dealers table and exam the coin and like it enough to buy it, as far as I am concerned the deal is done.
If I buy a coin on ebay and the coin dosen't look like the picture or match the description then I expect that I should be able to return it >>
Exactly.
I think that the title of the thread is quite draconian and belies the subtlely of the point that is being made.
I would agree with the assumption that a coin show purchase is a done deal. There are many reasons why this is different from the mail order purchase as discussed by other posters (collectors and dealers alike) in this thread. I have a few additional points that I would bring up from my own personal experience.
1. The lighting in most shows sucks! The coins almost always look different when you take them outside. Where color, luster, and/or toning is an issue (and when is one or more of these not an issue?), the bourse floor is about the worst place to look at a coin.
2. There is a big--no, HUGE--difference between a collector buying a coin at a show for his collection and wishing to trade it back a month later for something more in keeping with his collecting theme AND a collector/investor buying a coin at a show from a dealer with the intent of selling it on the same bourse floor. To me, the first is acceptable to some degree and the second is not. There is probably a lot of gray in between.
3. Sometimes a dealer will let you look at the "newps" at a show, the ones he/she intends to sell to the customer base back home. If you buy one of these, show it around, and take it back, you have really hosed the dealer and may have made it more difficult to get the coin sold.
4. As in all coin (and other) transactions, let your conscience be your guide. If there is any question about the transaction, put yourself in the other's position, and see if you think it is fair. If there is any hesitation, chances are it is not reasonable or at the very least, the dealer is doing you a favor by taking the coin back. Keep track of how many "favors" the dealer does for you and see if you can do some favors for the dealer to even things out.
<< <i>Dealers know that if you walk away from the table to show the coin elsewhere odds are that you'll never buy it..... >>
How true......This happens all the time. It's OK though, and, as a dealer, it's something you live with. From what I can gather in this thread, collectors seem to think that dealers simply live their lives ripping coins and foisting them on the poor, unsuspecting collector. As I ponder this, it's kind of sad....
Maybe there will be a new catagory of jokes soon......Like blond jokes, lawyer jokes, now coin dealer jokes......
Paul
people like those mentioned, on the Forum?
Camelot
<< <i>Sorry, I have no specifics. In my mind, it didn't matter. >>
To me specifics really should matter:
If a dealer proudly displays an "ANA Member" sign at their table and doesn't specifically state in writing that there is no return priviledge then I think the buyer really does have a legitimate expectation for the dealer to abide by the code of ethics that is propagated by the ANA.
(By the way, if the same "ANA Member" regularly allows returns for sight seen sales in the brick and mortar shop, should they behave in a completely different manner at a show?)
You also stated in the initial post that the buyer showed it around to others on the bourse. There was no mention of attempts to sell or flip the coin. If there was, say, a liner coin that didn't look great on the bourse, or looked significantly different under that dealers light, that began to look, for instance, on the underside of the line after showing/talking to several knowledgeable dealers that had seen the coin. And perhaps the dealer, tired from all the shows this year, decided to leave early to get some rest before having to board up the house from Ivan, so when the buyer came back already unhappy with the purchase at the show the cases were empty and the table abandoned....
I guess all I'm saying is that right or wrong, if a dealer signs that little piece of paper that makes them an "ANA Dealer" they really should think twice about making a fuss over returns that should be no-brainers.
(although, to be honest, i can't see myself ever actually doing such a thing.)
and a little ps. for Laura: If you really don't believe the ANA does anything for the "hobby" (aka, the business that puts food on your table) you maybe should take a trip to Colorado Springs and take a stroll through the library or museum, or pick up a copy of "The Numismatist" or possibly even take part somehow in the summer seminar program that has seen so many of the professional members of this board making positive contributions by way of donating their time/talent/expertise and yes, simply their love of numismatics.
see coinguy, i'm not only a collector basher..........
z
After returning this coin, this individual would get no consideration again and god forbid should he pay full freight for another coin I had, he wouldn't get the coin in hand until there was a clear verbalization that this was a 'done deal' and I wouldn't take any 'sight seen' returns like last time.
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
Some dealers that I have met play the religious and pious angle, very convincingly. They quote the scriptures, claim to be a true christian all the while plotting to ram a plunger up ones ass.
I suspect that he would gladly extend that full money back guarantee through the end of this year as well as next year as well at no additional charge!
So to say that all dealers are not as good as the retail stores honoring the 30 day money back guarantee then here is one dealer that gave me a 730 day money back guarantee.
TDN said:
<< <i>Folks, you buy a coin sight seen at a coin show and it's a done deal. There is no return privilege [unless it's counterfeit]. >>
I don't agree. Often, lighting at shows are awful, and flaws cannot be seen until the coin is home and looked at under better conditions. Would you ask PCGS to grade a coin at a dealer's table?
I once bought a coin at a local show, got it home, took another look and realized it was whizzed. I explained to the dealer, he took it back without a hassle.
Anyway, if the deal was fair and the coin is desirable, why would the dealer not take it back and sell it to someone else? The customer might appreciate taking the coin back and do future business with the dealer. If the customer repeatedly returns coins, then the dealer can choose not to do business with the customer.
Ever try to return a coin you bought sight seen out of auction? Good luck. And what is the difference between that and returning a coin you bought sight seen at a show....
I must say that I am picky about my purchases and even pickier about those I deal with. <<< BTW, My dealings with Legend have always been excellent>>>>
I really do not understand why a business with high ethical standards would not stand by their product.
If I bought a coin from a dealer selling under a retail umbrella at a show and after further review found a fault not recognized earlier and returned a coin within a reasonable time (ie 5days), I would think a refund is reasonable. Any dealer that would not accept the coin back under these circumstances must not think much of their product. I can see that there are exceptions and they could be stated up front. Now I do not think the dealer has a legal obligation to provide the refund but good will is what a successful dealer is looking for.
The issue of asking other peoples opinions does not seem to fall into the description of "whoring"; an experienced purchaser will not need much validation, a less experienced one may need help. If the inexperienced purchaser asked a half dozen people their opinion and they all said this was a poor quality coin for the price then their must be a problem. If I were the dealer, I would not want to have sold an inferior product to a disgruntled customer. I do have a caveat: As a dealer, I would not wish to service a customer that was trying to turn a coin at the show and returns the merchandice that could not be sold for a refund; this is a different situation as in this case he/she is serving the role of a dealer and essentially trying to sell merchandice with no risk.
I guess the message is that the coin market is not the friendliest place and buyer beware. I strongly suggest that things that are too good to be true are usually not. Find dealers that you trust , develop a comfortable relationship and buy judiciously.
Depends on how you look at it. Are you surprised that I believe in keeping commitments [and make no mistake that buying a certified coin sight seen is making a commitment]? Are you surprised that, as a businessman, I look at things sometimes from a business point of view? Are you surprised that I would think that a collector who made the decision to buy a coin can simply change his mind at any point in the future and return the coin - for no reason other than he changed his mind? Are you suprised that the point of this thread was to educate people as to the possible consequences of their actions, even if a dealer graciously takes the coin back?
If so, that surprises me...
<< <i> Are you suprised that the point of this thread was to educate people as to the possible consequences of their actions, even if a dealer graciously takes the coin back? >>
As a businessman, though, I'd imagine that you'd also believe that for the right customer, one who gives you a lot of business and referrals, and who doesn't abuse the privilege, it would probably be "bad business" not to accept a return once in a while, even if there was no really good reason for the return. The desire to keep the customer happy and the business relationship continuing is likely well worth it on occasion.
Obviously if you have a customer (collector) who abuses "return privileges" or the dealer's goodwill in accepting returns, at some point you'd want to put your foot down and stop accepting them. Given the headache that kind of customer can be, if you lose them, no big loss. But I think just about anyone in the business world who wants to nurture long-term, profitable relationships with their "better" customers would be foolish not to cut a little slack once in a while. Not that returning a sight-seen coin should be a God-given right, but an *occasional* privilege to good customers would be foolish, IMO, not to grant.
The public cannot be abused. All dealers should recognize that. If a collector abuses the dealer, the dealer can choose not to do business with the collector.
Dealers, for the most part, are intelligent businessmen and understand the above. The ones that do not should try to understand it.
After reading more of the thread, I must stress that this is a hobby for the public. It may be an investment, as well. If the collector/investor is trying to turn an immediate profit, s/he may be held to a different standard, but the bottom line is that they are still the ultimate consumer. Dealers must continue to recognize that.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
ANA#R216999
WINS#482
EAC#5255
CONECA#N-3902
Coin Community Forum
dragon
dragon
Really? For top tier certified coins sold sight seen? I don't believe it - please support that assertion!
Professional Numismatists Guild membership standards are strict. One of the requirements is an agreement to adhere to the Code of Ethics. Each PNG member takes the following pledge:
1. To furnish advice to my non-professional customers on numismatic matters to the best of my ability.
2. To deliver coins that I sell promptly unless otherwise agreed in writing between myself and my customer.
3. To pay for coins I have purchased promptly unless otherwise agreed in writing between myself and my customer.
4. To refrain from publishing any misrepresentations relating to the prices, quality or guarantees attached to my merchandise or that of my competitors.
5. To assist governmental authorities in investigating and prosecuting dealers in numismatic items when appropriate.
6. To refrain from knowingly dealing in stolen numismatic items.
7. To refrain from knowingly dealing in counterfeit, altered or repaired numismatic items without fully disclosing their status to my customers.
8. To grade coins accurately to the best of my ability and in accordance with recognized industry standards (or disclose fully my particular grading standards and how they may differ from recognized industry standards).
9. To refrain from any of the following in dealing with non-professional customers:
(a) buying or selling at unreasonable prices;
(b) using high pressure sales techniques;
(c) using misleading performance data;
(d) comparing coins graded by a fringe grading service with those graded by an industry standard independent grading service in a way calculated to create an inaccurate impression;
(e) intentionally misrepresenting the origin, provenance or pedigree of a coin;
(f) intentionally misrepresenting the weight of a coin;
(g) intentionally misrepresenting the value of a coin.
(h) intentionally misrepresenting the investment potential of coins;
(i) intentionally misrepresenting an affiliation between myself and any Government agency.
10. To make an oral or written disclosure to my retail customers that (a) the coin market is speculative and unregulated; (b) many areas of numismatics lend themselves to third-party grading and authentication; (c) certification does not eliminate all risks associated with the grading of coins; and (d) as a PNG member, I am obliged to arbitrate any dispute relating to the purchase, sale or trade of coins and numismatic items.
11. To respect my contracts with fellow PNG members, whether written or oral.
12. To respect my fellow members' contracts with third parties and not interfere with same.
13. To freely exchange non-proprietary information with my fellow members when requested to do so.
14. To refrain from intentionally defaming the character of a fellow member or the quality of that member's products or services for commercial advantage.
15. To give evidence at PNG arbitrations upon request.
16. To honor the provisions of PNG arbitration awards to which I am a party.
17. If I am in the business of conducting public auctions of numismatic items, to abide by guidelines issued from time to time by the PNG Board.
The collector went around and showed the coin expecting to get validation that he got a good deal.. Of course the dealers, thinking the coin might be for sale, wouldn't acknowledge that it was PQ, buying PQ coins at sheet is how they make thier nut. So they said, "Its OK, nothing special, how much you want for it?" Now after 5 of those the collector thinks he paid PQ money for an average coin. Which , BTW, maybe he did. All coins are "PQ" when they are selling to a novice and "just OK" when the novice is selling.
Reminds me of the days before grading services. Each coin had 2 grades, The buyers and the sellers. Today its the PQ game. Has anyone here every gotten PQ money from a dealer they didn't know while at a coin show? Has a dealer you didn't know every said the coin you were selling was PQ?
This collector got "worked over " at the "show game" and wanted to get his money back, is that so bad, even though he may or may not have gotten a decent deal.
However, we do have a return policy for the public. It was 30 days, and eventually eroded to fourteen days.
I will attempt to get it clarified ASAP.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
<< <i>Forgive me, but the ANA code of ethics is clearly written toward mail order and [IMO] does not apply to retail sight seen sales of certified coins. Period.
Ever try to return a coin you bought sight seen out of auction? Good luck. And what is the difference between that and returning a coin you bought sight seen at a show.... >>
I do not see anywhere in the code that states it applies to mail order business only. Your interpretation that is does appears to be a stretch, and a large one at that.
In any event, why do you want to stick someone with a coin they are not happy with??