How to Cut Ties with a Dealer
tradedollarnut
Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
True story:
Collector buys a certified coin sight seen at a show, walks it around the bourse floor for the rest of his trip eliciting comments from other dealers. Calls up dealer the next week and insists on returning the coin.
And some people say the customer is always right?
Collector buys a certified coin sight seen at a show, walks it around the bourse floor for the rest of his trip eliciting comments from other dealers. Calls up dealer the next week and insists on returning the coin.
And some people say the customer is always right?
0
Comments
I purchased a Morgan dollar way over the greysheet bid (as a dealer at the ANA) with the hope to cross it over to pcgs. That didn't happen and the person offered to buy it back.
I was suprised and believe in my choice to buy it in the first place. It's a very nice coin and proud to show it in my case!
If this was a newer collector possibly I could see this happen. A seasoned collector, no way. Seasoning teaches you the rules of the game.
Ken
he/she was probably trying to turn it for a quick profit at the show and when that didn't work, RETURN please.
<< <i>Calls up dealer the next week and insists on returning the coin. >>
Why? Without knowing the reason why he returned the coin, there is no basis for opining on the reasonableness or unreasonableness of his action.
CG
I thought we were going to talk about "How to cut ties with a dealer". I was planning to offer the "it's not you, it's me" routine.
I believe that your anecdote is played out over and over to varying degrees over the course of time.
In almost every retail business, the customer has the explicit right to return a product within 30 days for any reason. Not with coins.
In almost every business that involves experts, an 'agency' relationship is assumed and the expert is under VERY strict rules about conflict of interest and profits. Not with coins.
In almost every brokerage business, the dealer is required to follow numerous disclosure and code of conduct rules, and subject to strict penalties if they aren't adhered to. Not with coins.
All businesses are required by law to pay taxes and keep good records. Not with coins. Because of the cash nature of coin transactions, almost all coin dealers give the "cash discount" (even to total strangers) and ignore the rules. In fact, I've had coin dealers very viciously attack the idea that they were doing anything wrong by not keeping records on coin transaction turnarounds even though it was clear and understood that taxes were going to be ignored.
Conclusion: If a coin dealer wants to complain, he should stop the wholesale screwing of coin collectors first.
<< <i>
<< <i>Calls up dealer the next week and insists on returning the coin. >>
Why? Without knowing the reason why he returned the coin, there is no basis for opining on the reasonableness or unreasonableness of his action.
CG >>
I agree. There are several possibilities where it would be just fine to do that. I'll reserve judgment for now.
Just tell him all sales are final and deny the refund.
Folks, you buy a coin sight seen at a coin show and it's a done deal. There is no return privilege [unless it's counterfeit].
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
You should see my paper trail. I never deal in cash. I have to keep a trail on EVERYTHING. It's a major pain, but it keeps everything square with the government.
David
<< <i>Folks, you buy a coin sight seen at a coin show and it's a done deal. >>
Absolutely. This should be a no-brainer.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Folks, you buy a coin sight seen at a coin show and it's a done deal. There is no return privilege [unless it's counterfeit]. >>
What if he consensus among the other dealers was that the coin had been puttied or lasered? Something that the collector was not able to detect himself.
Or what if the collector was a novice and it was just an over priced and over graded dog, which again the collector lacked the expertise to know?
By the way, you did not mention whose holder the "certified" coin was in. What if it were in a "third world" holder, and the collector, again being naiive, did not know any better when he purchased it but was quickly given some eye opening advise by the other dealers on the bourse floor?
CG
I generally agree with you. And, of course, a collector can easily be protected by simply asking for a return privilege before closing the deal with the dealer. Quite often, a dealer may be perfectly fine with extending a return privilege on a coin at a show if asked. And, why wouldn't the dealer if asked under certain circumstances (e.g. a coin that has been on the website for 2 months or one where the dealer has 5 of the same coin in stock). On the other hand, if the coin was a freshly made "crown jewel" to a series there might be plenty reason for a dealer to say "no" to the collector's request.
Assume a collector bought a coin off a website with a 7 day no question asked return policy and on the 2nd day after receiving it walked it around the entire coin show for 4 days asking for opinions, only to return it on the 7th day. This is an example of why I might be open to offer a collector a return on a coin bought at a coin show, if they asked for one as part of the deal up front. The reality is companies with super flexible return policies often do very well in business - such as Nordstroms - because the vast majority of customers "cooperate".
Wondercoin
If we, collectors, want dealers to play by the rules then we, collectors, damn sure better also. Thats the point.
As TDN pointed out this was a sight seen, DONE DEAL....period. Too bad the dealer backed down on this.
Ken
Jerry
Why don't you open a coin shop and show us how to do it?
In almost every retail business, the transactions are for fungible items not subject to limits of supply and/or tampering. Also the prices are usually very stable with a published wholesale/retail price structure.
When a consumer buys a ....lamp....and then finds another for a lower price, he may return the item even though he was happy at the time of purchase. This is because the retailer runs no risk of a lower probability of sale via the "exposure" of the item.
The "agency" relationship applies in coins on the auction side as they are then selling someone else's property. It is a far different application when the dealer is establishing the price at his own risk.
If coin dealers "screw" everybody, how come you are still in this hobby?
Yes, some dealers wink at sales tax. Those are the dealers who will get whacked at their first audit and leave the business or get "cash short" and begin reneging on deals to other dealers and soon find themselves with no credit anywhere.
You should try shopping around until you find someone who meets your standards and expectations.
Or confine your purchases to retail items with more structured pricing and hired help.
Or what if the collector was a novice and it was just an over priced and over graded dog, which again the collector lacked the expertise to know?
By the way, you did not mention whose holder the "certified" coin was in. What if it were in a "third world" holder, and the collector, again being naiive, did not know any better when he purchased it but was quickly given some eye opening advise by the other dealers on the bourse floor?
I certainly would feel sorry for the individual in each of those situations, but that was not the case. He simply had a change of heart.
ANA Dealers Code of Ethics
Approved August 1967 by the ANA Board of Governors; revised March 2002.
As an ANA member dealer, I agree to .... To frequently publish my statement of return privileges, which will allow my customers a designated period of time in which to return numismatic material for a refund, except bullion or bullion-related material may not be returned for a refund. Said period of time shall not be less than fifteen (15) days from the recorded date of receipt or other transmittal of said material or not less than ten (10) days after my customer's receipt thereof or my attempted delivery thereof to my customer, whichever time period shall be the earlier. If a customer submits a misdescribed or overgraded coin to a certification service for authentication or grading and notifies me of such submission within ten (10) days of my date of mailing or other delivery, I will continue to recognize his/her return privilege for thirty (30) days after my customer's receipt of said coin from me. In an auction sale of consigned material, the return privilege period may be made available only to mail bidders, and the period for the return of such material may be limited to five (5) days from the mail bidder's receipt thereof or fifteen (15) days from the bidder's receipt of the invoice for such material or my attempted delivery of my invoice therefor, whichever time period shall be the earlier. Whether or not an item has been returned within the limited return period, a dealer may be subject to expulsion or other disciplinary action for a) the intentional sale of any counterfeit item or any item with an altered date or mintmark; b) the intentional misrepresentation as to the grade of any item; or c) the failure or refusal to provide a refund or replacement for any item referred to in a) or b) preceding, whether or not the sale or misrepresentation was intentional. Anything herein to the contrary notwithstanding, I shall have the right to enforce my written terms of sale furnished to a customer or the written provisions of my contract with a customer, even if such terms and/or provisions restrict or prohibit the return of numismatic material, contrary to the return privilege provisions set forth herein. However, said terms and provisions may not provide a time limit for the return of a counterfeit coin unless I have informed my customer that a coin may not be genuine and he/she has agreed that the coin cannot be returned to me for a refund in the event it is determined to be counterfeit.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Sight Seen is a Done Deal.
Ken
<< <i> I certainly would feel sorry for the individual in each of those situations, but that was not the case. He simply had a change of heart. >>
A few more observations, some of which have been touched upon by others.
If the dealer had sent the coin to the customer by mail, the customer would have had several days to examine the coin and "think it over." On day one he may have loved it. On day two he may have loved it. On day three he may have begun having doubts. And by day five he may have wanted a divorce. So back the coin would have gone to the dealer. Same result the only difference is that a coin show was not involved.
Also why do I suspect that this was a walk-up customer who did not have a long time business realtionship with the dealer? If the customer was a long time customer who had done hundreds of thousands of dollars of business with the dealer over the years, and just decided that the coin really was not quite "right," wouldn't the dealer take it back and still love that kind of customer?
Let me put it more bluntly and in real life terms, if TDN were the customer and returned a four or five figure coin, I would take it back just to keep him happy. If it were someone else who had purchased a low ticket item, I would take it back because that's business BUT I'd grouse about since I'm only human.
And just as an aside. With all of the wailing we read here over how hard it is to find "nice" coins in the current market, the dealer should have no qualms about putting a "nice" coin back in stock--assuming of course that it was a "nice" coin and the market was not in the process of tanking.
CG
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
CG
But it was raw [wouldn't slab out as a proof] and he really didn't want it back. If I'd had put it in auction, I'd have only gotten $5k for the coin I think. He stretched, I stretched and we both went away relatively happy.
But I always knew it was a done deal.
<< <i>The last time I changed my mind about a done deal coin, I told the dealer to 'treat me fair'. I got $10,000 back on a $16,000 purchase. >>
This is a completely different circumstance. If the collector mentioned here would have done this everything would have been Okay. Is this the case?
Ken
<< <i>Yes, the dealer took the coin back. Only because it's not worth the risk of getting flamed in a chatroom - it's much easier to never do business with said collector again. Folks, you buy a coin sight seen at a coin show and it's a done deal. There is no return privilege [unless it's counterfeit]. >>
And that is what is most pathetic of all. General flames with little to no real information.
I agree, sight seen = no return. It's a shame the Dealer had to give in due to a possibility of being flamed via a one sided complaint.
peacockcoins
Ken
Also I think (twice in 1 thread, really scary) that a return policy should have been discussed or posted by the dealer at his table prior to the transaction and this would have been avoided. Even as simple as: Any coin returned within 7 days -20% or something like that. TDN lost $6,000 (60%) on a returned coin is pretty hefty.
I am a real rookie on raw coins and would like a return policy--but if I looked at it first I would say DONE DEAL also.
I guess attitude--communication--fairness should always rule.
My 2 cents worth.
Rookie Joe
Does the dealer get to change his mind after the sale? Perhaps the dealer decided to grant a 15% discount to raise some cash and then an hour later someone says 'oh, I would have paid full price'! Does the dealer have the right to void the sale? No - why not? Because it's a done deal!
I realize that I am new to the board and may be steppin' out of line, but I gotta say, if there were no customers there would be no dealers. Being a business owner myself (15 years), I deal with all kinds. Some are pleasant and some are hell, but you have to take the good with the bad if you want to stay in business. I have to say that when I started to collect coins, in the beginning, I came across some real a**hole dealers that I am surprised were getting any business at all simply for the fact that they had the same attitude just as you are describing in your posts.
I realize that the coin business is a little different than my service business, but I gotta say the customer's money is what puts food on the table, good or bad. -Dan
I have always felt that a purchase made face to face is a done deal.
If it fake and I miss it I expect the dealer to take it back.
If it's just a problem coin or over priced and I miss it, it's my problem.
<< <i>Does the dealer have the right to void the sale? No - why not? Because it's a done deal! >>
No, not because its a done deal. Because he is a dealer-- he is a professional in the trade--he sets the terms of the transaction and is chargeable with full knowledge of the market for the goods in which he trades. Sure, in a rising market many sales could have been done at a higher price a short time later but the dealer knows this and decides at what price he is willing or needs to turn inventory.
The collector just does not stand in the same shoes as the dealer.
We are just not going to agree on this issue, but I will say that the amount of time that passes between the sale at the show and the request to return is important. There has to be some sense of finality in the market place or else dealers will never know what their financial position is. The customer cannot sit on the coin for weeks and then expect to get a full refund. At some point he does own it and will have to sell it back. But here it seems like he acted quickly right after the transaction. Yes the dealer might have changed position in reliance, perhaps using the proceeds from the sale to buy something else, and if that caused a significant financial hardship the dealer might be justified in declining to buy the coin back at full price. These cases are very fact oriented.
CG
ANA#R216999
WINS#482
EAC#5255
CONECA#N-3902
Coin Community Forum
I am a collector and not a dealer. The attitude I have on this subject is very strong and I really believe if collectors want dealers to treat us fair then we should do the same thing. When a collector buys a coin sight seen he is useing his own judgement and not getting shystered on Ebay or through a Web Site. The collector must take responsibility for his own actions.
Hey I can bash a dealer just as well as a collector. If a dealer tries to buy coins from me Sight Seen useing the Blue Sheet they get a well deserved bash.
Don't you think this attitude is fair.
Ken
if not, why not?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i> When a collector buys a coin sight seen he is useing his own judgement and not getting shystered on Ebay or through a Web Site. The collector must take responsibility for his own actions. >>
Once again it depends on the facts. Lets consider some real life transactions that have been reported on this forum by some top industry players.
A certain collector is considering a beautifully toned, high grade, high priced seated proof and just happens to have a chance to see it in sun light, rather than on the bourse floor. In the sunlight he catches on that under the toning is a patch of hairlines that in his opinion causes the coin to be overgraded. Since he and his heir would be buried in said coin for generations if he were to purchase said coin at said price, he graciously returns it.
A certain dealer purchases a high grade gold coin and shortly thereafter notices that it is hazing in the holder. Turns out the coin has been puttied. Dealer covers their loss by making a grading claim against PCGS. What if the dealer had sold it to a collector? Should the collector have been stuck with a "done deal" and be told to go cry to PCGS? If that happened to me I would part ways with the dealer.
CG
This exact instance happened to me on a certain 20 cent piece that will remain nameless.... ah, the advantages of buying by mail!
Think this fool will see his money refunded?
In other words, if in fact this is the case, inform the buying public of these alleged rules.
It appears that this "done deal" rule is only applicable when it is to the dealers favor.
Jim
<< <i>If all "sight seen" transactions are "done deals" and therefore, all transactions at shows would then fall under this umbrella statement, then why, pray tell, doesn't every dealer at these shows place an "All Sales Final" sign at each and every table?
In other words, if in fact this is the case, inform the buying public of these alleged rules.
It appears that this "done deal" rule is only applicable when it is to the dealers favor.
Jim >>
Most of us collectors who have been around understand that coins bought sight seen are final sales. Only unreasonable people attempt to return a coin they bought sight seen from a dealer.
<< <i>Think this fool will see his money refunded? >>
I know those bidders are not bidding on a National Collector's Proof replica coin. You have to read through so much garbage to even find out that's what it is. It's dealers like this that make me ashamed that I sell on eBay for a living.
ANA#R216999
WINS#482
EAC#5255
CONECA#N-3902
Coin Community Forum
Excuse me? Are you aware that the reason this hobby has been HOT is because of the NEW collectors that have entered? Am I to understand that, by your statement, you are lumping all of the newbie/rookie collectors in with the more experienced/knowledgeable veteran collectors? Should all of the newbie/rookie collectors be expected to know all of the rules/intricacies of the hobby immediately upon purchasing their first coin?
Jim
CalGold (or anyone else),
In your opinion, what is that "sense of finality" for a show purchase? However you choose to respond, please explain your thoughts. Also, if you wish, please tell us if that "sense" includes or precludes showing the coin around for the balance of the day/show (whatever) and then deciding to return the coin.
Do not assume his motive for showing the coin around, and do not assume why he's returning the coin. If we must assume, let's assume something benign about this collector like, e.g., he's new to the series/collecting, accidentally overspent, trouble with wife, etc. Don't make him out to be a demon, and don't make him out to be a victim of circumstance either. Just benign and neutral...
Regards,
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>[L=Think this fool will see his money refunded] >>
Holy Cow !! Good eyes Al !!
Paul