Do You Consider Paying Over "Sheet" Price A Premium?
stman
Posts: 11,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
I just have to ask this question. I see all too often on this board folks considering paying over "Sheet" price a premium.
I guess many coins on ebay go for these prices, and many bidders on ebay are buyers and sellers, or "Wannabe dealers."
Another reason I bring this up is perhaps some newer collectors are missing out on purchasing a great coin because they're afraid if they pay over sheet price that it's a "Premium." So do YOU consider paying over Grey-sheet ask for a coin, a premium? I don't!!!!! Not for a nice coin.
BTW, I've very seldom bought a nice or great coin for anything close to bid price. I also believe many collectors are doing themselves a great disservice by being tied to ebay all the time and comparing everything in the market to ebay. There is a whole other world in coins out there
besides ebay folks. You can slap me but please don't yell at me OK?
I guess many coins on ebay go for these prices, and many bidders on ebay are buyers and sellers, or "Wannabe dealers."
Another reason I bring this up is perhaps some newer collectors are missing out on purchasing a great coin because they're afraid if they pay over sheet price that it's a "Premium." So do YOU consider paying over Grey-sheet ask for a coin, a premium? I don't!!!!! Not for a nice coin.
BTW, I've very seldom bought a nice or great coin for anything close to bid price. I also believe many collectors are doing themselves a great disservice by being tied to ebay all the time and comparing everything in the market to ebay. There is a whole other world in coins out there
besides ebay folks. You can slap me but please don't yell at me OK?
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
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And to be honest it doesn't bother me. The coins I end up paying above sheet for always end up being the ones I don't want to sell off or end up being worth MUCH more later on. Once again, almost without exception.
jom
<< <i>Whether I call an over "ask" price a "premium" is not really relevant >>
Yes it is "relevant" because I asked the question making it relevant.
Michael
I guess maybe what you are getting at is whether I think paying over ASK is too much. In that case I'd have to say NO.
jom
That being said, a pet peeve of mine are the people that actually expect someone to pay PQ money for a mediocre coin.
PS: Mike, I have just received the ultimate insult; at the current Heritage auction, I was the under-bidder on a Shield Nickel
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
K S
peacockcoins
<< <i>So do YOU consider paying over Grey-sheet ask for a coin, a premium? >>
If I want the coin, I pay accordingly as to how bad I want it. If I want it bad enough to pay double Grey-sheet, then I guess it is the dealers lucky day. Grey-sheet is an excellent guide but you can't place value on true desire. In short, my answer would be no.
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It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
<< <i>
Hard to say. I guess I'd start with saying it appears more choice and with better eye appeal for its type/date than nearly any other coin you've seen in its grade. I'm not sure you can quantify it; it's a pretty subjective thing. But if you look at a lot of coins, and you see one that truly stands out from almost all the rest for its grade, you may have az "special coin." And don't expect to snag it at or below what the sheets say. If you do, congratulations. But more often than not, enough other collectors will recognize true premium quality that there's little chance you'll get much of a discount from "book value," if any.
ROFLMAO
I can quit collecting anytime I want to.....I just don't want to!
Specialists in certain areas (IE: Barber Collectors) have long realized that the Greysheet BID prices for choice material has not kept up with the market. Most key dates ASK prices are also out of whack.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Jeremy
<< <i>Simply as a point of definition, it is a premium, as sheet is the guidline. Who says, "I paid 2x redbook value"? No one! But most experienced collectors have concluded if you want to get PQ coins you will pay a premium. (So maybe therefore it's not a premium?). All I know is when I want a laugh, I think of the collector that said, "I like to buy PQ coins and I don't like to pay more than greysheet."
ROFLMAO >>
Exactly. And these are usually the same guys who when they sell want ask + 50-70% for run of the mill white Morgans.
Cameron Kiefer
<< <i>Wouldn't anything over sheet be considered retail? Is it wrong to pay retail prices? >>
This is part of the reason for this thread. I believe some of the great coins are in REAL dealers hands, and nothing wrong with paying retail.
Unless of course someone is looking to just flip the coin than it can be tough.
<< <i> All I know is when I want a laugh, I think of the collector that said, "I like to buy PQ coins and I don't like to pay more than greysheet." >>
I see this statement on here all the time, and another reason I started this thread.
Thanks for all the discussion folks. Some interesting replies. I don't like to pay anymore than the next person. But if I want quality (which I do)
I use the sheet as a starting point to see how much over I'm going. I believe 20-30% over ask is a normal retail price.
Also, in reality, the Greysheet is basically a wholesale guide for dealer to dealer transactions. What I see on here is people expecting to get great coins at dealer wholesale levels. Enjoy the hunt!!!!
The bottom line is that people who use any sheet or price guide as a strict guideline are bound to accumulate coins that are low end for the grade. I'll go to my grave thinking that. Every auction I see proves it, and with all the recent auctions, I have a lot of proof.
<< <i>Your question suggests that the "sheet" may be right in the first place, which it never is. >>
This is also true. I watched today's Signature auction, and there were some real bidding wars going on for PL and DMPL Morgans. I saw a couple go for two and a half times sheet.
<< <i>Your question suggests that the "sheet" may be right in the first place >>
Hi Lava, if it looked this way it was not my intent to infer the sheets are always correct. Quite the opposite actually. BUT, there are some dealers when selling you a coin will say the sheet is off on everything they are selling. But for some reason when they are buying from you the sheets are always correct.
I'm more into old classics these days and if I went by the sheets I'd be lucky to buy cleaned damaged coins. These pieces not only trade above the sheets, but also into the next grade or two up and sometimes a premium above that
For solid Choice AU coins I often offer well over 50 ask, and many times I pay at or over 60 money if the coin is unmollested, attractive and therefore choice (or "PQ" if you will) for the grrade. In other words "premium" or choice money ... but only for choice coins. Am I paying a "premium"? I don't think so. I'd never have a chance to own these coins otherwise.
Now if I was to pay over AU50 ask money for a "dipped out/scruffy", that most services will still put in AU53 and 55 plastic, well then I'd just be foolish. I guess I have that right, but I try not to spend my money or my time that way.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
But the TPC's are really fouling this thinking up. Their move to "Market Grading" now has the "premium" coins presented in graded slabs that already represent the "premium" price. This market grading is leaving average and lesser desired coins in grades commensurate to their technical grade and bumping the more desireable coins to upper grades. The grading companies today are no longer grading coins, they are placing values on the coins using the grading scale as the value based upon the sheets. I've heard it directly from the horse's mouth (David Lang-NGC) that if they have a technical 65 coin with great appeal (I believe that is the basis of a "premium" coin) that they know should bring a premium price they will grade it a 66 or 67. David Hall is on record saying PCGS market grades as well.
So here's the rub. In many cases the premium is already represented by the inflated grade awarded the coin. This Market Grading is nothing but a tool provided by the TPC's for the dealers to get higher prices from collectors. I see wonderful coins all the time that scream to be in my collection that are in slabs that the grade has already been bumped. They don't end up in my collection because the dealer wants a "premium" over the already bumped grade. This is the classic double bump that is ripping the collector.
With the above in mind I do watch the sheets closely. When I find a properly graded coin with great appeal I will pay over sheet. Heck, I paid 6 times sheet for my toned Bay Bridge this year. But I am finding more and more nice looking coins with bumped grades that I will not pay over sheet. Heck, at sheet they are already priced at a "premium" simply because of the "market grade" on the label.
David
I won't defend the pricing, nor say that the guy was wrong in declining. He very well may have been correct, and that we priced it too high. Nevertheless, I think it would have behooved him at least to look at the coin. Just look at the friggin' coin!!! Sheesh!!!
FYI, the coin in question is a CC DMPL at a grade where the next grade up costs substantially more.
Honestly, folks, is it too much to ask that a prospective buyer actually look at the coin?!? Well, at least the gentleman was polite...
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
There are several examples of coins that have increased in value over the past 3-5 years and being too tight with respect to certain coins just turns into lost opportunities and sad stories to share on the forum. Laugh if you choose, but it is true. As an example, I paid well over bid for an 1893-s Morgan that was a high end original VF years ago and today, it would be difficult to replace.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>Honestly, folks, is it too much to ask that a prospective buyer actually look at the coin?!? Well, at least the gentleman was polite... >>
Oh come on! You know as well as anyone the slab label tells you all you need to know about a coin. You should know this....you WORK in the business. Get a clue.
jom
<< <i>and being too tight with respect to certain coins just turns into lost opportunities and sad stories to share on the forum. >>
I've gotten use to overpaying, so I'm comfortable with it.
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since 8/1/6
fatman probably spoke a bit more truth than many are willing to reconcile with, though it's been bandied about here by us all ad nauseum. the "premium" is already there in most cases, you've all already posted about the changing standards. why double up if you don't have to?? it's OK to pay strong money for coins just as it's OK to bemoan the escalating prices. my perspective is that in a growing/rising/expanding/escalating------take your pick-----more expensive market like we have today, it's probably wiser to buy with caution and perhaps wait till things soften. there's no need to be parted from our money unless the coin in question is a "gotta have it...can't live without it...may never see it again...once in a lifetime...coin. all the ones i thought i needed to have in the past but hedged on due to my perceived gouging have faded from memory and been replaced by the next coin in the batters box!!!
al h.
we know you want a nice coin and can't afford the higher grade, so we're gonna soak you if you really want this one.-----what the collector probably thought. he didn't need to look at the coin.
al h.
EX: The CDN just "adjusted" 1839 no drapery halves from $13,000 in MS63 to $21,000! Hey, nice 61% adjustment. Did CDN just wake up and puruse the market for a change? A similar increase was placed on the MS64's. Makes you wonder where they have been for the past 2-1/2 years when there have been 3 confirmed sales on MS63's ranging from $20K to $22K! Yet they steadfastly clung to the old bid levels. But I have to give them a touch of credit. They finally raised the price by $500 sometime in the last year. Way to go CDN. But, at least they have the right price now! A decent MS63 just sold out of Jung for $24,150.
Sheet prices? Use them as a guide. Paying above or below sheet is just a starting point. I think the dealers and seasoned specialists like it when the price guides are in error. They can buy cheaper and then sell to those in the know for much more.
roadrunner
<< <i>Some very predictable responses to a softball question. Of course I'll pay over sheet for the right coin and yes I consider it a premium. Why, because premium coins come only at a premium price.. >>
Well said!
I, like most, like to "buy right", and sometimes that means having to pay a bit over sheet. I refuse to pay a big premimum though, and will simply "pass" on the piece.
In some circumstances, "the sheet" is patently low. As an example, couple of years ago, 1901 S quarters in good were stuck $ 1800-2000 on the sheet and couldn't be had for 30% over. I paid the premimum on 3 pieces, and they have more than doubled since then!
When the table is turned, and you are a seller, it's difficult to get sheet prices from a dealer. Depending on the item, they usually pay 10-30% "back" of sheet. The dealer's "spread" is actually a combination of the discount and premimum below and above sheet, and you can't begruge them their margin as they have overheads, time invested and need to make a living too!
I think it kept me from buying quite a few coins for fear of paying too much.
Now I haven't bought a sheet in a year or two. All the coins I want, I know the price of. And if I want the coin I'd better not
quibble over a buck or two.
Keets, I completely agree with you. The problem is I'm not patient enough to wait out a year or two for things to shake out.
I bought my first "real" (read expensive) coin of the year yesterday. Paid way too much (much more than I had passed on similar coins
2 years ago). But what are you going to do? I would have to stop reading these boards, stop visiting Heritage's site and unsubscribe
from a few dealer's mailing lists if I really wanted to stop buying coins and wait for the prices to come down. Hopefully the premium I
paid for yesterday's coin will be balanced out by the relative cheapness of coins I bought a few years ago.
-KHayse