Lets see, DHeath is a used car dealer, Shiro is too, and so is Traderbobz and so am I. Oh well, there goes 4 of your customers--------------------------BigE
<< <i>Lets see, DHeath is a used car dealer, Shiro is too, and so is Traderbobz and so am I. Oh well, there goes 4 of your customers--------------------------BigE >>
Oh Well. Se la vie
But in the used car business there are the guys who keep the good to decent cars to market, and sell the problem cars to the guys who put saw dust in the transmission. I would assume that out board members only sell cream puffs.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Well, Hell, you mean it only took the ANA 20 years to do this? What's wrong, is ANA membership down or something? Now lets go after Paul Sims, Littleton, Chattanooga Coin and some of the other crooks. As for ACG ads in CW, I'm sure Hager had some kind of long term contract with CW. ACG is dead-even Hager the Horrible is now advertising NGC slabs (not a whole lot of improvement in my opinion.). Didn't think the wardens would let him run a coin business out of a jail cell, but he probably bribes them with ACG graded coins.
<< <i>Lets see, DHeath is a used car dealer, Shiro is too, and so is Traderbobz and so am I. Oh well, there goes 4 of your customers--------------------------BigE >>
Oh Well. Se la vie
But in the used car business there are the guys who keep the good to decent cars to market, and sell the problem cars to the guys who put saw dust in the transmission. I would assume that out board members only sell cream puffs. >>
I was about to protest some comments until I scrolled down and saw the correction.
I'm glad the ANA took a stand, even if it doesn't clean up all the dirty dealing in coin sales.
This is a pleasant change from two years ago. Remember this?
I'm glad I've started reading on this forum, I've already been warned about a couple EBay sellers, now I know more to stay away from.
One comment about posting a list of expelled members. I think they could do it on their Web Site, but if they bought advertising space in a major magazine, then these "Expelled Members" could sue for slander, so it might not be legally feasible for ANA to post expelled member lists.
That's my two Lincolns...
And thx for the information about scummy dealers...
Get a subscription to the Wall Street Journal; you'd be amazed re the legal actions that have been taken in the last few years and are going on right now. William Donaldson really stepped up the the plate on this and took a lot of heat for it in some sections of the business community.
More on point with this thread, with the internet, people can now make inquiries about coin dealers more easily. This is a real plus of forums like this one. My advice:
1) Know how to grade what you are buying and what the price should be in the desired grade. If you don't know this info, get help from someone who does, or else it's a numismatic equivalent of "bend over, I think I love you." 2) Before buying from a new dealer sight unseen, be sure you have a no questions asked 7 day return privilege and get positive feedback re the seller from someone you trust. This is the only way I buy sight unseen. Sometimes I get just an "okay for the grade" coin, but I've never been stuck with a dog this way. 3) Irrespective of your level of expertise, get a second set of eyes to review any sight seen purchase 4) If a coin seems too cheap for the grade: a) it is probably a problem coin that the seller wants to unload on a sucker b) if you see an expensive (for you) coin offered raw, there's a reason for it, and the reason is rarely in the the purchaser's interest 4) Don't be in a hurry to buy coins. There are always mediocre coins available; the nicer ones are harder to find 5) Don't get into a pi@@ing contest re an auction coin with another bidder. Another one will come along eventually.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
I also chose not to renew my ANA member as a form of protest when they accepted a donation from ACG... and I've always been curious how many other people may have done likewise.
<< <i>Hey, it just dawned on me; they caught Saddam and Ken Pines on the same day ! Don't things happen in three's ? Maybe Bin Laden is next !
Then Paul Sims..
Justice ! >>
Ohhhhhh, I'd love to see Sims fry. That sob. When I was a newby I bought an "uncirculated" 32-D Washington and an Isabella quarter for what I thought was a bargain, but still alot of money. I sent them for grading, as a newby, to NTC ( I didn't know better about TPGs either), and even they found them to be cleaned. I was devastated. Of course a few mos. had gone by and I removed them from the original holder so I was SOL.
I also chose not to renew my ANA member as a form of protest when they accepted a donation from ACG... and I've always been curious how many other people may have done likewise.
I am a life member, and quitting wouldn't much good, I fear.
The Hagers resigned from the ANA and are now suing the ANA in Florida.
The Hagers (accugrade) sued the ANA in DC Federal Court and lost the whole case on a pre-trial motion for failure to state a claim for which relief could be granted. (FRCP Rule 12(b)(6)) See the decision reported at the ANA site:
Sure glad I can linky-dinky. Or I guess I would hear about it.
There's always that saying that there is no Santa Claus in business so when you see one of his ads featuring coins for cheap people should know better than to expect top coins for bargain prices.
I would like to know why the dealers mentioned ARE mentioned. I am new to this and don't wish to get "taken". I prefer circulated coins so it's unlikely I will have to worry about buying coins that are labeled uncirculated but have been in reality cleaned, but I would like to know anyway, just in case.
Especially I would like to know about Littleton. I've been buying from them since the early part of this decade, but only modern, mainly the State Quarters which my brother has been buying me, and now the Presidentail Dollars. And now that I'm really getting into the hobby they have a lot of things I wish to purchase.
<< <i>I would like to know why the dealers mentioned ARE mentioned. I am new to this and don't wish to get "taken". I prefer circulated coins so it's unlikely I will have to worry about buying coins that are labeled uncirculated but have been in reality cleaned, but I would like to know anyway, just in case.
Especially I would like to know about Littleton. I've been buying from them since the early part of this decade, but only modern, mainly the State Quarters which my brother has been buying me, and now the Presidentail Dollars. And now that I'm really getting into the hobby they have a lot of things I wish to purchase.
What does "Whizzed" mean? >>
"Whizzed" normally means that the surfaces of a coin have been altered with a mechanical tool, often grinding off the top layer in an attempt to get rid of scratches and contact marks. When tools are doing the work they will make a "whizzing" sound.
The coins that Littleton Coin Company sells tend to be problem free coins that are usually very nice for their advertised grades. Littleton's prices are very expensive, though.
Thanks for the info-I DEFINITLY don't want to get any of them! I have a dremel and I couldn't imagine taking it to a coin-that would surely ruin it. Heck, I've ruined more model cars with it then not! I wondered what mechinally altered was as well but had not gotten around to asking yet. It never ceases to amaze me how...dishonest and unscrupulous (spelled wrong, probably) some people can be.
Wouldn't that also make the coins thinner? removing some of the metal would affect that, I imagine.
Thanks for the info about Littleton...I am glad to hear the main issue is pricing, and not altered coins. The pricing is why I havn't ordered more yet. It's funny, I gave my mom a list of coins I would be interested in (for birthdays, Christmas, whatever) based off the Littleton catalog. She doesn't see a problem with spending $5 or more for a penny from the early 1900s but I'm too cheap to do that. (It's a lot funnier then it sounds, which I'm going to guess is not very-I guess you'd have to be a family member to get it).
You know, I've seen a lot of posts since I joined telling about how bad some dealers are. And that's NEEDED, so as inexperienced or trusting people aren't cheated. But it would be very nice to be able to open a post and see a listing of dealers that ARE trustworthy and good to shop from-people that aren't going to sell you bad coins (and by this I mean stuff like Whizzed or cleaned, not meaning condition) and that are safe to buy from regularly. I havn't actually ordered anything from any dealers since I got into the hobby, YET, but I would like to be able to open a post and find the dealer I'm thinking about ordering from, to see if they are trustworthy or not. I suppose that's probably too much to ask because each person has had different experiences and it's all subjective. Not to mention the sheer volume of dealers I've heard of-and I'm sure there's lots more I have not heard about yet.
Does Coast to Coast actually doctor the coins they sell are is that the way they buy them? I bought a few coins from him years ago when i started up. Not the best nor the worst i have ever seen. I realize that most members here are way ahead of Ken Pines products, his prices seem fair for what you are getting. There are plenty of messed with coins running around and someone gets stuck selling them, and someone gets stuck buying them. I do not think Ken Pines is the worst by far. The T.V. hackers and the "Balistic roll" sellers are higher up the old screw ladder. Some people are extremely happy with what they buy from ken pines. not everyone needs a top pop certified or all there coins to grade ms/pf 67. The coin market is huge and there are lots of pieces of the pie to be served buy more than 1 type of seller. Now if Ken Pines is the one actually whizzing the coins and dipping them all is off on my post. I figure he goes out of his way to buy problem coins. I have never noticed that K.P. sells state quarters in gold, silver and plat. He sells a lot of mint sealed items,bullion and other common coin items. Not everything he sales is jacked over and he does not sell a lot of high end rarities.
The guy that doctors on a true high end rariety is much worse than ken pines and the widgets he sells. These people puttying 50,000 dollar coins and thumbing this and tone this proof seated half top pop, getting the lazer gun out are destroying the future for a quick flip and gouge of green. These forums have a large number of guys that have acestone and other chemicals laying around to fix a issue on a coin.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
Bottom line is you have to educate your self first in any endevor you go into. Buying 2500 dollars worth of raw coins of different series as your first purchase is a recipe for disaster. There are plenty of coin show dealers and brick and mortar dealers that rip a new collector as well or better than Ken Pines, Paul Simms and the like. Wether you are buying a used car, mobile home lot, vacation timeshare, stocks, bonds etc. the world is full of less than honorable sellers. Even advanced collectors can get burned buy the so called good guys. I would say 90 percent of the seller/dealers out there have done a rip or sold a coin without be 100 percent thruthful to a buyer. Dealer to Dealer is probably a worse percentage. When Sex, Guns, drugs and Money is involved someone better be paying attention.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
<< <i>These forums have a large number of guys that have acestone and other chemicals laying around to fix a issue on a coin. >>
I don't think acetone should be lumped in with other doctoring chemicals. Used properly, acetone does not damage the surfaces of the coin and it's used merely to remove contaminants and not to otherwise alter the surfaces.
A friend of mine who has been involved with collecting coins since the 70s has done a lot of business with Coast to Coast....I do not know anything about Mr.Pines but always wondered why people would buy something from them based on the date, mintmark and someone's grade(raw),using generalizations without any description given and stock photos!?!?
I was going to say "Long overdue", until I saw that the thread is 4 years old. I bought 7 or 8 "Red BU" Indian Cents a few years back, all early 1900's dates. All of them were remarkably the exact same color. A local dealer confirmed that they had been cleaned, and had a few choice words about the company. I returned them, received a refund and haven't bought from the big CW advertisers since.
This thread started years before I entered the fray, but notice that the ANA did not expel this guy for selling cleaned coins, etc.
He got expelled for "his failure to respond to multiple complaints." It's a huge difference. The ANA is not in the business of judging what is an acceptable amount of cleaning, or what dealers should charge for their coins. They do, however, require dealers to respond to complaints. When dealers don't respond, they can get expelled.
This guy would probably still be an ANA member if he had responded to the complaints, denied doing anything wrong, and offered everyone their money back.
<< <i>This guy would probably still be an ANA member if he had responded to the complaints, denied doing anything wrong, and offered everyone their money back. >>
Very doubtful that he would still be a member if he answered the complaints since the complaints were too numerous to be ignored.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
About 13 years ago I asked for a 20 cent piece for Christmas and my grandfather ordered it from them. It's a nice VG coin and is still in my type set today. The only reason I'll upgrade it is for one that has "liberty" visible. My grandfather also got me an 1835 CBH from them. It's VF but dipped, not polished thankfully. There are far worse coins than it, and it's one of my favorites because for a long time it was my oldest, biggest coin. Not everything they sold was bad stuff.
It would be interesting to see what would happen if somebody advertised accurately graded coins at 10% more than C2C's advertised prices. My guess is that the newcomer would be out of business in 3 months.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Was this the place that had the huge ads for IHCs in CW?
The pics looked too good to be true and it said something like "all coins are choice full red" but the prices were much lower than market prices. That sends a red flag!
<< <i>It would be interesting to see what would happen if somebody advertised accurately graded coins at 10% more than C2C's advertised prices. My guess is that the newcomer would be out of business in 3 months. >>
I agree. Sad to say, but the attraction of those ads is their "too good to be true" prices.
Who was it who said, "There is no Santa Claus in numismatics"?
<< <i>It would be interesting to see what would happen if somebody advertised accurately graded coins at 10% more than C2C's advertised prices. My guess is that the newcomer would be out of business in 3 months. >>
I agree. Sad to say, but the attraction of those ads is their "too good to be true" prices.
Who was it who said, "There is no Santa Claus in numismatics"? >>
Ironically, one of the first purchases I made when I got back into coins 10 years ago was a complete run of proof Silver Eagles from Coast to Coast for a little over $300. Needless to say, I did pretty well on that purchase. Actually, "complete" is a misnomer. I could have ordered the 1995-W for around $700, but I figured I could always add that one later. Then it tripled in price in short order, and I thought I had missed the boat. Then it doubled again from there.
Enough of my rambling, except to say that C2C did replace a couple of the Eagles that had some minor spotting with no questions asked, and I was completely satisfied with their service overall. However, I quickly outgrew the kinds of coins they deal in.
Bought earlier proof ASE and Modern Silver and Gold Commems in Mint capsules years back from C.to C. and work out very well. Best prices around . Sorry about those who bought the raw cleaned stuff. I bought a few Morgans in the early day. They reside in a "Slider" album
The first, and LAST, coin I purchased from him was a "Brilliant Uncirculated" $10 Gold Indian that was not only neither of those descriptors, but also a fake.
Fortunately, I got a kranky (obviously, overworked return-oriented person) on the phone that did refund my money.
Comments
what's it tell you about the "ANA"? who's the WORSE crook? is it really coast-to-coast? or maybe it's the ana?
or maybe it's the png......
K S
<< <i>Lets see, DHeath is a used car dealer, Shiro is too, and so is Traderbobz and so am I. Oh well, there goes 4 of your customers
Oh Well. Se la vie
But in the used car business there are the guys who keep the good to decent cars to market, and sell the problem cars to the guys who put saw dust in the transmission. I would assume that out board members only sell cream puffs.
As for ACG ads in CW, I'm sure Hager had some kind of long term contract with CW. ACG is dead-even Hager the Horrible is now advertising NGC slabs (not a whole lot of improvement in my opinion.). Didn't think the wardens would let him run a coin business out of a jail cell, but he probably bribes them with ACG graded coins.
<< <i>or maybe it's the png...... >>
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
<< <i>
<< <i>Lets see, DHeath is a used car dealer, Shiro is too, and so is Traderbobz and so am I. Oh well, there goes 4 of your customers
Oh Well. Se la vie
But in the used car business there are the guys who keep the good to decent cars to market, and sell the problem cars to the guys who put saw dust in the transmission. I would assume that out board members only sell cream puffs. >>
I was about to protest some comments until I scrolled down and saw the correction.
I'm glad the ANA took a stand, even if it doesn't clean up all the dirty dealing in coin sales.
This is a pleasant change from two years ago. Remember this?
Obscurum per obscurius
FrederickCoinClub
One comment about posting a list of expelled members. I think they could do it on their Web Site, but if they bought advertising space in a major magazine, then these "Expelled Members" could sue for slander, so it might not be legally feasible for ANA to post expelled member lists.
That's my two Lincolns...
And thx for the information about scummy dealers...
42/92
<< <i>After reading the Sarosi thread, I thought it would be worthwhile to resurrect some others. >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Get a subscription to the Wall Street Journal; you'd be amazed re the legal actions that have been taken in the last few years and are going on right now. William Donaldson really stepped up the the plate on this and took a lot of heat for it in some sections of the business community.
More on point with this thread, with the internet, people can now make inquiries about coin dealers more easily. This is a real plus of forums like this one. My advice:
1) Know how to grade what you are buying and what the price should be in the desired grade. If you don't know this info, get help from someone who does, or else it's a numismatic equivalent of "bend over, I think I love you."
2) Before buying from a new dealer sight unseen, be sure you have a no questions asked 7 day return privilege and get positive feedback re the seller from someone you trust. This is the only way I buy sight unseen.
Sometimes I get just an "okay for the grade" coin, but I've never been stuck with a dog this way.
3) Irrespective of your level of expertise, get a second set of eyes to review any sight seen purchase
4) If a coin seems too cheap for the grade:
a) it is probably a problem coin that the seller wants to unload on a sucker
b) if you see an expensive (for you) coin offered raw, there's a reason for it, and the
reason is rarely in the the purchaser's interest
4) Don't be in a hurry to buy coins. There are always mediocre coins available; the nicer ones are harder to find
5) Don't get into a pi@@ing contest re an auction coin with another bidder. Another one will come along eventually.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>Hey, it just dawned on me; they caught Saddam and Ken Pines on the same day !
Don't things happen in three's ? Maybe Bin Laden is next !
Then Paul Sims..
Justice ! >>
Ohhhhhh, I'd love to see Sims fry. That sob. When I was a newby I bought an "uncirculated" 32-D Washington and an Isabella quarter for what I thought was a bargain, but still alot of money. I sent them for grading, as a newby, to NTC ( I didn't know better about TPGs either), and even they found them to be cleaned. I was devastated. Of course a few mos. had gone by and I removed them from the original holder so I was SOL.
Looking for alot of crap.
I am a life member, and quitting wouldn't much good, I fear.
The Hagers resigned from the ANA and are now suing the ANA in Florida.
The Hagers (accugrade) sued the ANA in DC Federal Court and lost the whole case on a pre-trial motion for failure to state a claim for which relief could be granted. (FRCP Rule 12(b)(6))
See the decision reported at the ANA site:
Sure glad I can linky-dinky. Or I guess I would hear about it.
Maybe it is time to end the protest?
good news never gets old.
Especially I would like to know about Littleton. I've been buying from them since the early part of this decade, but only modern, mainly the State Quarters which my brother has been buying me, and now the Presidentail Dollars. And now that I'm really getting into the hobby they have a lot of things I wish to purchase.
What does "Whizzed" mean?
As in using a drill or dremmel.
<< <i>I would like to know why the dealers mentioned ARE mentioned. I am new to this and don't wish to get "taken". I prefer circulated coins so it's unlikely I will have to worry about buying coins that are labeled uncirculated but have been in reality cleaned, but I would like to know anyway, just in case.
Especially I would like to know about Littleton. I've been buying from them since the early part of this decade, but only modern, mainly the State Quarters which my brother has been buying me, and now the Presidentail Dollars. And now that I'm really getting into the hobby they have a lot of things I wish to purchase.
What does "Whizzed" mean? >>
"Whizzed" normally means that the surfaces of a coin have been altered with a mechanical tool, often grinding off the top layer in an attempt to get rid of scratches and contact marks. When tools are doing the work they will make a "whizzing" sound.
The coins that Littleton Coin Company sells tend to be problem free coins that are usually very nice for their advertised grades. Littleton's prices are very expensive, though.
Wouldn't that also make the coins thinner? removing some of the metal would affect that, I imagine.
Thanks for the info about Littleton...I am glad to hear the main issue is pricing, and not altered coins. The pricing is why I havn't ordered more yet. It's funny, I gave my mom a list of coins I would be interested in (for birthdays, Christmas, whatever) based off the Littleton catalog. She doesn't see a problem with spending $5 or more for a penny from the early 1900s but I'm too cheap to do that.
You know, I've seen a lot of posts since I joined telling about how bad some dealers are. And that's NEEDED, so as inexperienced or trusting people aren't cheated. But it would be very nice to be able to open a post and see a listing of dealers that ARE trustworthy and good to shop from-people that aren't going to sell you bad coins (and by this I mean stuff like Whizzed or cleaned, not meaning condition) and that are safe to buy from regularly. I havn't actually ordered anything from any dealers since I got into the hobby, YET, but I would like to be able to open a post and find the dealer I'm thinking about ordering from, to see if they are trustworthy or not. I suppose that's probably too much to ask because each person has had different experiences and it's all subjective. Not to mention the sheer volume of dealers I've heard of-and I'm sure there's lots more I have not heard about yet.
The guy that doctors on a true high end rariety is much worse than ken pines and the widgets he sells. These people puttying 50,000 dollar coins and thumbing this and tone this proof seated half top pop, getting the lazer gun out are destroying the future for a quick flip and gouge of green. These forums have a large number of guys that have acestone and other chemicals laying around to fix a issue on a coin.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>These forums have a large number of guys that have acestone and other chemicals laying around to fix a issue on a coin. >>
I don't think acetone should be lumped in with other doctoring chemicals. Used properly, acetone does not damage the surfaces of the coin and it's used merely to remove contaminants and not to otherwise alter the surfaces.
He got expelled for "his failure to respond to multiple complaints." It's a huge difference. The ANA is not in the business of judging what is an acceptable amount of cleaning, or what dealers should charge for their coins. They do, however, require dealers to respond to complaints. When dealers don't respond, they can get expelled.
This guy would probably still be an ANA member if he had responded to the complaints, denied doing anything wrong, and offered everyone their money back.
Like many uniformed collectors, a slick, glossy monthly mailer boasting "Specials" can tempt you into spending $$$
<< <i>This guy would probably still be an ANA member if he had responded to the complaints, denied doing anything wrong, and offered everyone their money back. >>
Very doubtful that he would still be a member if he answered the complaints since the complaints were too numerous to be ignored.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
I've had much worse from Sims.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
The pics looked too good to be true and it said something like "all coins are choice full red" but the prices were much lower than market prices. That sends a red flag!
<< <i>It would be interesting to see what would happen if somebody advertised accurately graded coins at 10% more than C2C's advertised prices. My guess is that the newcomer would be out of business in 3 months. >>
I agree. Sad to say, but the attraction of those ads is their "too good to be true" prices.
Who was it who said, "There is no Santa Claus in numismatics"?
Coin Rarities Online
<< <i>
<< <i>It would be interesting to see what would happen if somebody advertised accurately graded coins at 10% more than C2C's advertised prices. My guess is that the newcomer would be out of business in 3 months. >>
I agree. Sad to say, but the attraction of those ads is their "too good to be true" prices.
Who was it who said, "There is no Santa Claus in numismatics"? >>
Ironically, one of the first purchases I made when I got back into coins 10 years ago was
a complete run of proof Silver Eagles from Coast to Coast for a little over $300. Needless
to say, I did pretty well on that purchase. Actually, "complete" is a misnomer. I could
have ordered the 1995-W for around $700, but I figured I could always add that one later.
Then it tripled in price in short order, and I thought I had missed the boat. Then it doubled
again from there.
Enough of my rambling, except to say that C2C did replace a couple of the Eagles that had
some minor spotting with no questions asked, and I was completely satisfied with their service
overall. However, I quickly outgrew the kinds of coins they deal in.
<< <i>I will join the ANA as a life member when they give that $3,000 back to Hagar and expose him for what he is. Until then, I will never join. >>
A organization that went around "exposing" people would soon be sued out of existence. Someone is either a member in good standing, or not.
<< <i>I will join the ANA as a life member when they give that $3,000 back to Hagar and expose him for what he is. Until then, I will never join. >>
That's why I dropped my membership.
in Mint capsules years back from C.to C. and work out very well.
Best prices around . Sorry about those who bought the
raw cleaned stuff. I bought a few Morgans in the early day.
They reside in a "Slider" album
100% Positive BST transactions
Fortunately, I got a kranky (obviously, overworked return-oriented person) on the phone that did refund my money.
Lesson learned.
Miles