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New variety draped bust half dollar 1807 O-115 discovered here, prev. unknown obv. 12 not described

BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
Originally posted Sept 27th 2003, this coin turned out to be not only a previously undescribed marriage in the draped bust half dollar series, but also an entirely new obverse die,
not known to or described by Biestle, Haseltine, Overton, nor anyone else until now. the differences between this coin and the O-104 are subtle..

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Here's an interesting half dollar:

image

what do you think this coin grades?

Overton variety?

Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

«134

Comments

  • BigD5BigD5 Posts: 3,433
    Looks to be a nice F-12 example.
    BigD5
    LSCC#1864

    Ebay Stuff
  • mdwoodsmdwoods Posts: 5,526 ✭✭✭
    F12
    National Register Of Big Trees

    We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
  • VF-20?
  • F12 PCGS And NGC
    VF25 ACG
    VF30 NTC
  • F12
  • I recently had my bust half slabbed and was graded as F-15. Yours have better details on reverse, so I thought it's VF-20.
  • stmanstman Posts: 11,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Baley, I want to see if I can attribute the die variety from my Overton book. Anything not showing in image that I need to know? Thanks for the post.
    Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,859 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Your coin looks to be a well struck VF coin, judging from what I think I see of the peripheral wear vs the central detail/wear.

    EVP

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Stman, I think everything you need to attribute it is in the pic, I'm pretty sure it's an O- ???

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • nwcsnwcs Posts: 13,387 ✭✭✭
    Well, given my recent experiences, I'll guess XF-45. Sure is a beauty!
  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,859 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, given my recent experiences, I'll guess XF-45.

    image

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • stmanstman Posts: 11,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Looks like 0-103 but that's just a quick wag.

    Edit to add... My wag of O-103 I don't think is correct. O-103 says the serif of Y will be higer than the T. It doesn't appear that way now that I look at the image better.
    Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    yep, I'll go with 103 too (not attributed on the holder) Anacs Fine-12.

    Edited: check that. O-104, different obv. with level TY, high 7 in date., same rev. B as 103.

    don't see the milling lumps he talks about between stars 2 and 3, but also the defect to the left of S he talks about is only just starting. early die state i guess.

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • nwcsnwcs Posts: 13,387 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Well, given my recent experiences, I'll guess XF-45.

    image >>

    That's why these are recent experiences. image
  • stmanstman Posts: 11,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Baley... See my edit. Besides that it looks O-103. Heck I'll still call it that.image
    Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    heh, ill see your edit, and raise my edit image

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • stmanstman Posts: 11,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So O-104 it is. If you're seeing the beginning of the lump by S. This forum isn't used to this stuff. We sound like a bunch of coin nerds. What's neat about this IMO... is you don't just look at one of these and give a quick grade. Sometimes it depends on the die state.
    Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
  • NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Looks like O.104 at first glance. What is going on between star 5 to bottom of L on LIBERTY? I have owned 2 104's, both had distinct die lumps between stars 2 and 3 next to the milling. Check the distance of star 7 to L and S6 to S7 with your coin compared to Overton, also the distance of S8 to milling.

    If it is O.104, they are more scarce than the R.3 rating, not many auction records.
    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
  • baccarudabaccaruda Posts: 2,588 ✭✭
    F15
    1 Tassa-slap
    2 Cam-Slams!
    1 Russ POTD!

  • Fine 12
    image
    My posts viewed image times
    since 8/1/6
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    there are two old light scratches on the obverse, one across the hair and shoulder, the other from S5 to L. I think I see the lumps in the milling but they're not real distinct, there is also a very small rim bruise right there.

    But hey, if it's a bit scarcer than Overton's R3 rating, I guess i can forgive a few flaws commensurate with the circulated grade. Usually it's the other way around, isn't it? that the coin is a little more common than he states.

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭
    VF-20, although I would really have to see it in person to confirm that. The reverse is a lot sharper than the obverse, and since these coins tend to come weak on the obverse I'd say that would be a good reason to grade it a little higher than some other have done here.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have seen quite a few 1807s in otherwise fine to very fine condition, but almost no bow and lower left hair detail, they just have a flat area there. I think some varieties this is characteristic?

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • I'm going to say VF30. The obverse on a lot of 1807 Draped Busts is weak and I think this needs to be taken into account. Also, don't know that I agree with O-103 or 104--take a look at O-109 particularly in relation from the distance of stars and Liberty from milling and size of date with 1 almost in the curl. I haven't spent a lot of time on this attribution but if I'm right its an R.3 or 4
    Curmudgeon in waiting!
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    hmmm, at first i thought maybe 109, especially the way the centering and reeding looks on Overton's example, but S7 is too far from L for it to be Obv 6. And it can't be obverse 2 because of the TY.

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,692 ✭✭✭
    f-12 (by type - don't have the brick w/ me right now)

    K S
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    yep, anacs F12

    Dorkkarl, is this an O-104 or a new, previously unknown die marriage of extraordinarily high value?

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,692 ✭✭✭
    hey baley, i'll check tonight - not good at attribing pre-turbs w/out the brick!

    GREAT COIN!!!

    K S
  • NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Baley,

    This is definitely not O.109 because of the reverse, check the relation of the lowest berry to A, and the point of leaf to I, 109 has the same reverse as 107, 108, 109. I am certain it is reverse B, which is on 103 and 104. The distance between S7 and L looks greater on your coin than Overton's 104, and the stars are further from the milling. The Overton example is a late state and very worn, the plates can be deceiving.

    I will check my PCGS XF45 O.104, it might take a couple of days before I can get to the bank. If you can post a closeup of the area between S2 and S3 and the milling we could verify if it is O.104, but then if this is an early die state the die lumps may not show, although there are no known examples of this.

    My XF O.104 has a very sharply struck periphery with sharp stars, and the centers are very mushy, the eagle's head is barely struck. This is a sunken die. The finest known O.104 (and only known MS) is an NGC MS64 than was auctioned at Superior on 10/00 and 5/01 @ $14950. This coin amazingly turned up on ebay about a year ago and did not sell. The centers were very, very soft on this coin, the central curls were not struck up at all.

    David Lange of NGC is the best at professional attribution.

    This is a very interesting post.
    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, here's the coin again

    image

    I can see how it looks like a 109 due to the appearance of the centering, strike, and milling
    except we're pretty sure it has the B reverse

    here's an O-104,

    image

    If it's a 104, at least it's better looking than this example, or Overton's, for that matter!

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,692 ✭✭✭
    definitely reverse b, but a late die-state, so it can't be o-103. that leaves only o-104. the obverse die state looks appropriate for 104, but i was thrown off a bit by s1, which in your image looks like the ne point is too low. assuming that's an aberration of the digi-pic, i'd say definitely o-104, and a danged nice example. didn't bring peterson w/ me, but i'd be interested in the die-state of the rev. any charactersitic die-cracks or lumps you can see? check in particular the tops of the letters near the periphery.

    grade - f-12 by type, vf-20 by variety, since it's obviously a late d.s.

    K S
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dorkkarl, I don't see how you can say it's the same obverse 2 as on the O-104.
    I finally got it from the bank box, here are some new pictures of the coin in question:

    image

    image

    The relationships of the star points to the milling look correct for the 104 (S1B, S7UE, S8UE, S13B) but I could just as easily call 7 and 8 as pointing between denticles. BUT star 1 looks like it is only 1 mm from curl, not 1 1/2. Al O. doesn't give a measurement, but it looks like star 7 is farther from the L than on his example, but not as far as on Obverse 1?. I do not see much when I look closely for the diagnostic lumps near the milling between stars 2 and 3:

    image

    The reverse is certainly B, what I find interesting is the general weakness of the tops of the letters, especially the missing serifs on the U.

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    and what is the deal with the bent point on star 10?

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    for comparison, here's O-102, with obverse 2, reverse A (Y in Liberty well above T)

    image

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, neither condor101 nor I can find that obverse in Overton. Can anyone prove or disprove this is an O-104? Nysoto, can we see a pic of one of your O-104s?

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Baley,

    With your close-up of S1-S7, there is no sign of the diagnostic die lumps between S2-S3. It is possible, as Condor said, they were lapped away, but they would have removed a LOT of material. The top of E and R in LIBERTY do show signs of lapping with the weak top serifs.

    I am going to the bank tonight, I will take a long look at my 1807's.

    If you want, I can post your images on the Bust Half Nut Club server for opinions. If the coin is an O.104, it would be an unlisted die state.

    No more time right now, gotta run.

    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Fine-15, and it's the type of early coin that I like to find. Most of them have cleaned to an unattractive pastey white.

    My guess is that this coin will find its way into a VF-20 holder somewhere down the line.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Well, given my recent experiences, I'll guess XF-45. Sure is a beauty! >>



    Yep, point taken. I've seen a number of early coins recently that have overgraded by one click at least, and by that I don't mean one point on the MS end of the scale. image
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks Bill Nysoto, that would be great.

    Bill Jones, what is your opinion of the die variety of the coin?

    Also discussed a little bit in this thread

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • NapNap Posts: 1,702 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nice coin. I have an 1807 that looks to be in the same condition as yours; mine is NGC graded F-12.

    Unfortunately I don't have my coin or my Overton book with me as I am away at school, so I couldn't be much help in attributing it.
  • MacCoinMacCoin Posts: 2,545 ✭✭
    fine
    image


    I hate it when you see my post before I can edit the spelling.

    Always looking for nice type coins

    my local dealer
  • F-15?
    We are always better off than we deserve. image
  • F12...

    image
    coconut
    image
  • VF20
  • coinlieutenantcoinlieutenant Posts: 9,305 ✭✭✭✭✭
    very nice!!!
  • I really like that coin as an F-12 (or any other grade). I'd have guessed at least F-15.

    BC
    Dip Happens...image
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    thanks guys, I bought this one for the original looking surfaces, and because i had not seen many circulated 1807s with nice hair and fillet detail.

    Looks this might be a newly discovered obverse die, paired with reverse B, proposed name, O-115! image

    I'm planning to attend next Long Beach show to have officers and members of the Bust Half Nut Club take a look at it, in the meantime will take some more pics this weekend.

    My thanks to everyone who responded to the post, especially Nysoto who put me in touch with the BHNC

    stay tuned!

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • coinlieutenantcoinlieutenant Posts: 9,305 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Good luck Baley.

    sounds neat!!
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here are a couple of closeup pictures of the date and Liberty areas, note the distinctive shape of the 8 in the date, none of the known obverses have this feature

    image

    In LIBERTY, note the unusual "arched" base of the R, and the lack of upper serifs on the B and R, and the very weak top of the R.

    image

    again no known obverse has these, although Obv 5 does lack serifs on the B.

    I'd be interested in seeing any pictures you all might have of 1807 half dollars,
    particularly closeups of LIBERTY, if you have them. Thanks!

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

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