Congratulations also to Nysoto, your knowledge and persistance helped make this discovery possible!
This is a great event for bust half collectors, the first new die marriage discovery in over 8 years. I could not positively attribute this coin in September, but more analysis was needed to prove the new variety. Evidence to prove the new marriage was provided by a BHNC member, drawing from a published JRJ study done in 1993 on obverse dentil counts. The dentil count on Baley's O.115 is 153, while O.104 has 154 dentils. Other differences such as star measurements can be affected by die state and/or lapping, but not dentil counts. The other attribution point that helped prove the new marriage is the 7 is closer to bust, and is canted to the left relative to O.104, this is not affected by die state or wear. The inspection and overlay at Long Beach confirmed all of the observations.
And that was really interesting. In fact, every way we could think of to try to explain these discrepancies as not a new die was explored, from lapping of the dies, to wear or environmental damage to the coin; the most skeptical dealer there (we'll call him Stuart Levine, since that was his name) even suggested the coin had been "inexpertly" repaired, and the detail re-engraved with, I guess, some letters and dentils re-engraved. But we pointed out that half the stars, as well as the 7 in the date, would also have to have been "worked on" I could tell that he had seen many supposed "different" coins end up not being anything, and this dealer had a sort of amused pity in his eyes as he expected this not to pan out. Even after the overlays were made, this mr levine thought it was a good idea to do the "ring test" so he balances my coin on the tip of his finger and goes to tap it with his key, I gently say, "please don't key my coin" as I pictured what a key can do to a car finish, asking him to use something blunt, such as another silver coin, so he gets this 1795 half from Sheridan and taps the coin, and baby, she ring like a little silver bell! But he has to go back and forth, switching coins, tapping the 1795, then the 1807, making sure that the tone is the same, he says, "hear that?" We were all 100% convinced before that point but Henry Hilgard winks at me and we all nodded and go, "yup"
Now, see, that's why these people are called "nuts". They count dentils!
oh, the dentils were counted and recounted. What's interesting is that the star point-to-dentil alignment on this 1807 obv. is nearly identical to that on the O.104, never off by more than a quarter dentil, however even earlier in this thread some differences were noted..
Bust half "nuts" find these things fascinating. we know it's not of the level of interest to the general public that the "pixxing minuteman" gets, but in our own little draped bust word, it's pretty kewl
Wow, Baley... awesome discovery! And with your love for type coins and getting what's nice (not what's graded best), the discovery couldn't have happened to someone more deserving.
Thanks Bill (sdcollector), just goes to show, type coins can lead to interesting things! Dansco collectors unite!
why did you decide to go with NGC for the certification?
Well, we thought we'd "capture the moment" (as well as document the variety) by having the coin professionally certified. PCGS doesn't attribute this series, so it went to NGC. The other choices there were ANACS, ICG, and SEGS (didn't see nor look for any of the third tier slabbers)
David Lange of NGC was there and saw the overlay images, he spoke with Sheridan and Henry and Steve and Bill, all of whom supported this unknown collector (yours truly) in his claim of a new obv., so I figured I'd better have it walked through, rather than wait until later. (on a coin like this, it is obviously worth much more as a certified coin, even if the eventual buyer cracks it back out to study)
The bad news for us at the show was this: the NGC graders wanted to take the coin back to Florida to spend a little more time with it before encapsulating it, probably because of the potential liability involved in certifying such a coin. They will have to send it when they're done, which will take at least a few days. So lots of folks who heard about it in Long Beach and wanted to have a look at it didn't get the chance, and I didn't get to bring it home yet.
What a fantastic story and find. I remember tossing a grade at that particular coin, being busy, and not bothering taking out my Overton book...........geesh I need to pay more attention sometimes!
LOL, somehow, I think the DB halves, and the year 1807 coins in particular, are going to get a little more attention in the next few weeks and months, as collectors look for O.115s among their coins.
Relayer, thanks again for the package, I received it June 3, the same day as the Long Beach mtg. When it rains it pours! Will do a giveaway on here very soon, need to think of something fun and interesting..
It doesn't get any better than this! Congratulations, Baley!
And, lest we not forget, this discovery coin made it's journey to Long Beach for this momentous occasion safely tucked away in a Slab Caddy™. (Note to any numismatic authors: Feel free to mention that in any forthcoming articles. )
well, 2 more could be found and it would still be R8 (1-3 known). As Nysoto mentions, even the similar 104 is a scarce coin. Thanks Coinlieutenant and lordmarcovan and lathmach and PreTurb,
was the coin weighed by chance? Was a photo taken of the edge?
yes it was weighed, just over 13.0 grams. We also weighed some other coins in similar grade and they ranged from 12.9 to 13.2 grams. Issue weight is 13.48 g.
Unfortunately, in all the excitement I forgot to take pictures of the edge. I did examine the edge and it was unremarkable, FIFTY CENTS OR HALF A DOLLAR somewhat worn, no lettering errors that I saw.
Ok one more and you probably knew this was coming..... "Will The Darn Thing Cross?" Oh, I see, you wanted to get it in a NGC holder first then in turn have a better chance at it crossing. -Stman
LOL, get this: we cracked it out of an ANACS F12 holder, right? Well, rumor has it that it's going to grade VF20 and NGC!
So will it cross?
at that grade to PCGS, and would they attribute it?
probably not, to both questions.
has anyone ever seen an early half dollar in a PCGS holder, with the overton variety designated?
Baley, congratulations and what a fantastic and entertaining story! You have to be inquisitive, alert, and fortunate to find a discovery piece/new die variety even once in several lifetimes.
TomT-1794
Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
Once it was proven that the obverse did not match any known Overton obverse, this issue was authenticity. As Baley mentioned, 13.00 grams was appropriate for that level of wear. Then there was the "ring" test that Levine did, as Baley watched nervously. Struck silver is work hardened and has a particular tone of ring, wheareas a cast bogus coin will have more of a thud.
My PCGS XF45 O.104 has a semi-prooflike reverse, so O.104 was the first usage of this reverse in the emission order.
Baley's decision to have NGC slab the coin is a good idea. Most discovery coins have been butchered up and would never make it into a slab, Baleys is very nice for the grade. Also, I suggested David Lange in September when I could not attribute the coin, he is a great numismatist and his stamp of approval will add value to this incredible coin.
This has been a monumental event. New bust half discoveries will be few and far between in the future, if at all.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
I was at Tom Reynolds's table on Thursday when I heard of the discovery.......
I guess word got around... a couple of times, later in the day, Steve and I stopped at a table, and people would ask him if he'd heard about the new half dollar variety? He'd say, why yes, and here's the owner right here!
<< <i>Hopefully I will make such a find someday >>
Keep studying numismatics and doublechecking attributions and it can happen. Other than my involvement with this new half I have discovered two other new die varieties (1873-S V-2 half dime and Shropshire D&H 13Bis Conder Token), two new edge varieties on Conder tokens, confirmed the discovery of the Invernesshire D&H 6 Conder token, and debunked the existance of a previously "dscovered" variety of Conder token. (Lancashire D&H 137Bis, "discovered sometime between 1970 and 1990, is actually the same as Lincolnshire D&H 3b.)
quick update: I was notified that NGC has holdered the coin, it was mailed from Florida on Monday, so today could be the day! (eagerly checked the box Wed and Thurs, looking for that little peach colored slip, but realize Registered can take a little longer, so not really starting to expect it until today)
This was the talk of the Long Beach show, even taking up a good bit of the discussion time at the EAC meeting (where silver-colored thingies usually are verboten to discuss).
It's a great find and a really memorable event, I'm sure, for all involved. I found out about it after the overlays had been completed -- I look forward to seeing the coin someday in the round.
Congrats Baley! You could have a cottage industry on your hands selling a one page flyer for the rest of us to stick into our Overton books.
What a wonderful discovery. It's so neat to have a coin in your collection labeled "Discovery Piece" in your honor. This is the best thread I've read on these boards. Congrads Baley!
Gosh, thanks guys! and thanks for being here to share this with (my wife just says "that's nice, dear" and hopes that someday I will shut up about the damned coin just kidding, my friends and family think it's cool, but don't really understand the way you collectors do..
anyway, I don't have it back yet, NGC is taking its sweet time with it but here's the picture from their website:
I'm pretty sure they rotated the rev. image, the eagle should be upside down?
Baley, I have no idea how I missed that whole thread but what a very cool find! Congrats and great detective work on the part of yourself and other board members. Of course, the real question now is whether you hang onto it or sell it and go after some cool pre-1800 gold
Tom
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981 Current focus 1855 date type set
This was the talk of the Long Beach show, even taking up a good bit of the discussion time at the EAC meeting (where silver-colored thingies usually are verboten to discuss).
Maybe it's an old enough coin, at 197 years, to transcend the metallurgical preferences of the EACers Wonder what all was said? Sometimes, during the show, we would stop at a dealer's table who handled early US coins and Steve or Bill or Sheridan would casually mention the news of a new bust half variety found and the dealer would have heard of it and ask if we'd seen it, and they'd reply, yes, here's the owner right here! and that was kind of fun.
I look forward to seeing the coin someday in the round.
I will bring this coin to the next Long Beach show in Sept, hope to see you there.
You could have a cottage industry on your hands selling a one page flyer for the rest of us to stick into our Overton books.
Baley, in the thread there is a mention of overlays of two coins that were used to assist in the verification; do you have these? I would love to see them.
Here is the pic I took with my digital camera of the computer screen at the show, this is the image we saw and all said, "oh yes!" It is an overlay of the O.115 with Nysoto's PCGS XF45 1807 O.104.
The original pictures are on a disk somewhere but i don't have a copy yet.
Hey Baley, got a group hug picture of you guys at the show? I heard you all that collect by variety are "Coin Geeks." Just want to see if it's true. Congratulations again Dude, and glad she's back home. I guess NGC wanted their publicity first.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
Hey Baley, So this coin is unique right? Lets say someone is building a full Overton plus set, then they need your coin right? Or lets say they are building a shorter set of just the earlier half dollars, they need your coin right?
So is this a $500,000 coin?
On a personal note, I have not had time to do the research on mine we discussed, I will get back to you on that.
got a group hug picture of you guys at the show? I heard you all that collect by variety are "Coin Geeks." Just want to see if it's true
Nysoto did have a couple pictures of us taken at Sheridan's table, maybe he can post them or mail them to me and I will do it. And yes, we're a motley crew.
So this coin is unique right? Lets say someone is building a full Overton plus set, then they need your coin right? Or lets say they are building a shorter set of just the earlier half dollars, they need your coin right?
Yes, theoretically, if someone were building a complete set of DB halves by variety, they would "need" examples of all marriages, including the very tough R7s and as well as the 4 unique ones. No one has done it yet, I don't know if anyone is trying.
<< <i>got a group hug picture of you guys at the show? I heard you all that collect by variety are "Coin Geeks." Just want to see if it's true
Nysoto did have a couple pictures of us taken at Sheridan's table, maybe he can post them or mail them to me and I will do it. And yes, we're a motley crew. >>
Sheridan is out of the country until July 21st so you will have to wait a while.
Hey Baley, got a group hug picture of you guys at the show? I heard you all that collect by variety are "Coin Geeks." Just want to see if it's true.
Here's me and Nysoto at Long Beach on July 3rd:
From Left to right: Henry Hilgard, Sheridan Downey (seated), Bill's O.104, the new O.115 (in hands) , then Gary Beedon, myself, Don See, and Steve Herrman
Congratulations again Dude, and glad she's back home. I guess NGC wanted their publicity first.
Thanks again, and that's exactly it. NGC waited until the CW issue went to press before shipping the coin.
It's Steve Herman who looks happiest. He knows this coin is in strong enough hands that he won't have to change the layout when he next updates his Bust Auction Prices.
Jim
Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
<< <i>Yes, theoretically, if someone were building a complete set of DB halves by variety, they would "need" examples of all marriages, including the very tough R7s and as well as the 4 unique ones. No one has done it yet, I don't know if anyone is trying. >>
Well obviously no one has all of them because they would have to have yours, and I don't think the other three unique pieces are in the same hands. I do believe that there HAS been one person who managed to finish a complete set of all of the varieties in the 1970 Overton book which is I think all but the last few new discoveries. I believe 450 varieties. There have been a few others who have gotten within a dozen pieces. The problem is those last few are very rare and are in strong hands. If these half dollar sets were ever auctioned you would probably see something like we did with the early date large cents.
When Robbie Brown sold his complete Sheldon number set in 1986 there were four other collectors there who had complete sets except for the 1795 S-79. So Robbie sold his set and Jack Robinson completed his. When Jack sold in 89 Lee Kuntz completed his. When Lee sold John Frankenfield completed his. When John sold DWH finished his. DWH aquired a second one some how and sold the S-79 back to Robbie Brown, which allowed him to complete the set for a second time. (Robbie is the only person to ever do it twice.) And the It was sold off with Robbies second set in 1996. I don't know who owns it now but his set is not complete. Having a line up of sets like that can really push up the price. The problem comes when you have the last set in the line. The sale price for the S-79 between 1986 and 1996 went like this, RSB I $63,000, JHR $89,000, LK $120,000, JRF $148,000, DWH to RSB about $170,000, RSB II I believe $58,000. Yes Robbie lost over $100,000 on it because there weren't two or more deep pocket collectors needing that last piece to finish their set. (Oh and this coin grades G-5 and has in Robbies words "a serious case of the uglies".
<< <i>Yes, theoretically, if someone were building a complete set of DB halves by variety, they would "need" examples of all marriages, including the very tough R7s and as well as the 4 unique ones. No one has done it yet, I don't know if anyone is trying. >>
Well obviously no one has all of them because they would have to have yours, and I don't think the other three unique pieces are in the same hands. I do believe that there HAS been one person who managed to finish a complete set of all of the varieties in the 1970 Overton book which is I think all but the last few new discoveries. I believe 450 varieties. There have been a few others who have gotten within a dozen pieces. The problem is those last few are very rare and are in strong hands. If these half dollar sets were ever auctioned you would probably see something like we did with the early date large cents.
>>
No one has ever completed the Draped bust series by variety. Floyd Farley probably came the closest of anyone I know of. Plus he was only a couple of varieties short of completing all 453 capped bust varieties. Charlton Meyer in the late 90's did complete all 453 capped busts...the only time done.
As a side note the John Tidwell collection of capped busts is being sold by Sheridan Downey at Pittsburgh. This collection only lacks the 1829 O-120 (three known). If anyone is interested
Jim (Just stay away from the 1827 O-137
Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
It's Steve Herman who looks happiest. He knows this coin is in strong enough hands that he won't have to change the layout when he next updates his Bust Auction Prices.
Actually, I'm pretty sure Steve will want change the layout of the next AMBPR at least a little bit
At minimum he will rewrite the "editor's notes" on the inside front cover and add a line at the very end of the Draped Bust section.
I was glad to sneak a few pictures on the bourse to "capture the moment!"
As Conder and Jim mentioned, a complete die marriage collection of capped bust halves was publicly reported in the 90's. For clarification, this was a complete capped bust collection for the Overton 3rd (1990) edition, 450 varieties. The reported collection did not include the 3 crushed lettered edge varieties of 1833, 1834, and 1835, which now are generally accepted and make the 453 capped bust varieties. The CLE's were proofs struck in 1836.
The Flowing Hair and Draped Bust (Pre-Turban) varieties now number 106 with Baley's 1807 O.115. The Pre-Turban collection with the most varieties that was publicly reported was 99 in the 1993 JRCS census, that collection has been sold. The unique coins all currently have seperate owners, athough 1794 O.109 is only unique in silver with Andy Lustig's report of the 2 die trials recently found. The 1795 O.118 is not believed to exist by most and is not included in the totals (remember 1795 O.132 was "rediscovered" after 70 years!).
There are current complete collections of bust half dimes, bust dimes, and bust quarters. An early dollar collection of all die marriages has never been completed, Jules Reiver was close, and I believe another collector now has more varieties than Reiver. The next JRJ will have the ED census.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
Hey thanks for the pictures Nysoto and Baley. I met Sheridan Downey and I believe one or two of the others pictured at a Santa Clara show a while back. Interesting.... it appears Bust collectors don't look like the typical "Geek" coin collector. Must be something to that.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
This is one awesome Thread!!! Congrats Baley!!! Now that you have it back in hand... is it a rotated reverse? Or did they rotate the reverse side of the holder?
Member Steamfitters Local 614 USMC Veteran 1981-1992 Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
This is an unbelievable thread.... From a pretty good coin to a unique plate discovery coin. Unreal. Permit me to add my voice to the chorus of congratulatory notes.
“There are current complete collections of bust half dimes, bust dimes, and bust quarters. An early dollar collection of all die marriages has never been completed, Jules Reiver was close, and I believe another collector now has more varieties than Reiver. The next JRJ will have the ED census.”
“No one has ever completed the Draped bust series by variety. Floyd Farley probably came the closest of anyone I know of. Plus he was only a couple of varieties short of completing all 453 capped bust varieties. Charlton Meyer in the late 90's did complete all 453 capped busts...the only time done.”
“As a side note the John Tidwell collection of capped busts is being sold by Sheridan Downey at Pittsburgh.”
Okbustchaser,
Thanks for the link.
For those of you that follow these sets, I noticed in the Tidwell sale that most of the coins are un-certified? I also noticed a few weeks ago a large collection coming to market in CW, this might be this collection, many of these were also un-certified. Is it the case that many of these older collections containing coins with high R ratings have many cleaned or damaged coins?
"The Early coins have to be graded by someone that knows the coins. "
PTVETTER,
O.K. well Sir, who would that be? The Dealer Seller?
Some of these coins in this sale appear to have severe damage the 1817/4, a nearly impossible coin to find, has PVC green all over the coin. Will this coin bring high bids even in this condition? knowing that the coin can never be certified?
This is in no way a slam on a great collection, but a serious question from a Bust half collector. Out of my personal collection of 93 of these coins, 32 have been body bagged by the TPG'S. Some of these coins fall in the R4 to R6 catagory, and I have wondered if I should keep them?
Many of these older Bust halves do not match up with coins in the Overton book. I own at least 2 of these that Baley and i have already discussed here.
This coins is marked as follows: 1823 O.113 R.7 Fine. Olin Carter's discovery coin! Ex Farley.
Without being certified just exactly is the final judge on a coin like this being a discovery coin.
<< <i>"The Early coins have to be graded by someone that knows the coins. "
Some of these coins in this sale appear to have severe damage the 1817/4, a nearly impossible coin to find, has PVC green all over the coin. Will this coin bring high bids even in this condition? knowing that the coin can never be certified?
This is in no way a slam on a great collection, but a serious question from a Bust half collector. Out of my personal collection of 93 of these coins, 32 have been body bagged by the TPG'S. Some of these coins fall in the R4 to R6 catagory, and I have wondered if I should keep them? >>
Will the 1817/4 bring big money even in this condition? VERY BIG. In fact, it is already gone.
As to your body bagged R4- R6 coins and whether or not you should keep them? Nawww....they are basically worthless. Send them to me and I will even pay the postage!!!.
Serious answer...although they won't draw the premium an undamaged coin would believe me, the R-5's and 6's WILL still draw a large premium over type.
Jim
Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
Comments
This is a great event for bust half collectors, the first new die marriage discovery in over 8 years. I could not positively attribute this coin in September, but more analysis was needed to prove the new variety. Evidence to prove the new marriage was provided by a BHNC member, drawing from a published JRJ study done in 1993 on obverse dentil counts. The dentil count on Baley's O.115 is 153, while O.104 has 154 dentils. Other differences such as star measurements can be affected by die state and/or lapping, but not dentil counts. The other attribution point that helped prove the new marriage is the 7 is closer to bust, and is canted to the left relative to O.104, this is not affected by die state or wear. The inspection and overlay at Long Beach confirmed all of the observations.
And that was really interesting. In fact, every way we could think of to try to explain these discrepancies as not a new die was explored, from lapping of the dies, to wear or environmental damage to the coin; the most skeptical dealer there (we'll call him Stuart Levine, since that was his name) even suggested the coin had been "inexpertly" repaired, and the detail re-engraved with, I guess, some letters and dentils re-engraved. But we pointed out that half the stars, as well as the 7 in the date, would also have to have been "worked on" I could tell that he had seen many supposed "different" coins end up not being anything, and this dealer had a sort of amused pity in his eyes as he expected this not to pan out. Even after the overlays were made, this mr levine thought it was a good idea to do the "ring test" so he balances my coin on the tip of his finger and goes to tap it with his key, I gently say, "please don't key my coin" as I pictured what a key can do to a car finish, asking him to use something blunt, such as another silver coin, so he gets this 1795 half from Sheridan and taps the coin, and baby, she ring like a little silver bell! But he has to go back and forth, switching coins, tapping the 1795, then the 1807, making sure that the tone is the same, he says, "hear that?" We were all 100% convinced before that point but Henry Hilgard winks at me
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
oh, the dentils were counted and recounted. What's interesting is that the star point-to-dentil alignment on this 1807 obv. is nearly identical to that on the O.104, never off by more than a quarter dentil, however even earlier in this thread some differences were noted..
Bust half "nuts" find these things fascinating. we know it's not of the level of interest to the general public that the "pixxing minuteman" gets, but in our own little draped bust word, it's pretty kewl
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Congrats!
Dansco collectors unite!
why did you decide to go with NGC for the certification?
Well, we thought we'd "capture the moment" (as well as document the variety) by having the coin professionally certified. PCGS doesn't attribute this series, so it went to NGC. The other choices there were ANACS, ICG, and SEGS (didn't see nor look for any of the third tier slabbers)
David Lange of NGC was there and saw the overlay images, he spoke with Sheridan and Henry and Steve and Bill, all of whom supported this unknown collector (yours truly) in his claim of a new obv., so I figured I'd better have it walked through, rather than wait until later. (on a coin like this, it is obviously worth much more as a certified coin, even if the eventual buyer cracks it back out to study)
The bad news for us at the show was this:
the NGC graders wanted to take the coin back to Florida to spend a little more time with it before encapsulating it, probably because of the potential liability involved in certifying such a coin. They will have to send it when they're done, which will take at least a few days. So lots of folks who heard about it in Long Beach and wanted to have a look at it didn't get the chance, and I didn't get to bring it home yet.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
What a fantastic story and find. I remember tossing a grade at that particular coin, being busy, and not bothering taking out my Overton book...........geesh I need to pay more attention sometimes!
LOL, somehow, I think the DB halves, and the year 1807 coins in particular, are going to get a little more attention in the next few weeks and months, as collectors look for O.115s among their coins.
Relayer, thanks again for the package, I received it June 3, the same day as the Long Beach mtg. When it rains it pours! Will do a giveaway on here very soon, need to think of something fun and interesting..
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
And, lest we not forget, this discovery coin made it's journey to Long Beach for this momentous occasion safely tucked away in a Slab Caddy™.
Russ, NCNE
well, 2 more could be found and it would still be R8 (1-3 known). As Nysoto mentions, even the similar 104 is a scarce coin. Thanks Coinlieutenant and lordmarcovan and lathmach and PreTurb,
was the coin weighed by chance? Was a photo taken of the edge?
yes it was weighed, just over 13.0 grams. We also weighed some other coins in similar grade and they ranged from 12.9 to 13.2 grams. Issue weight is 13.48 g.
Unfortunately, in all the excitement I forgot to take pictures of the edge. I did examine the edge and it was unremarkable, FIFTY CENTS OR HALF A DOLLAR somewhat worn, no lettering errors that I saw.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
-Stman
LOL, get this: we cracked it out of an ANACS F12 holder, right?
Well, rumor has it that it's going to grade VF20 and NGC!
So will it cross?
at that grade to PCGS, and would they attribute it?
probably not, to both questions.
has anyone ever seen an early half dollar in a PCGS holder, with the overton variety designated?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
Cameron Kiefer
Once it was proven that the obverse did not match any known Overton obverse, this issue was authenticity. As Baley mentioned, 13.00 grams was appropriate for that level of wear. Then there was the "ring" test that Levine did, as Baley watched nervously. Struck silver is work hardened and has a particular tone of ring, wheareas a cast bogus coin will have more of a thud.
My PCGS XF45 O.104 has a semi-prooflike reverse, so O.104 was the first usage of this reverse in the emission order.
Baley's decision to have NGC slab the coin is a good idea. Most discovery coins have been butchered up and would never make it into a slab, Baleys is very nice for the grade. Also, I suggested David Lange in September when I could not attribute the coin, he is a great numismatist and his stamp of approval will add value to this incredible coin.
This has been a monumental event. New bust half discoveries will be few and far between in the future, if at all.
I was at Tom Reynolds's table on Thursday when I heard of the discovery.......
I guess word got around... a couple of times, later in the day, Steve and I stopped at a table, and people would ask him if he'd heard about the new half dollar variety? He'd say, why yes, and here's the owner right here!
thanks Dennis88!
Hopefully I will make such a find someday.....
Anything is possible!
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
thanks Russ!
some collectors in Long Beach were heard to say,
"never mind the coin, where did you get that fantastic Slab Caddy™?"
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Hopefully I will make such a find someday >>
Keep studying numismatics and doublechecking attributions and it can happen. Other than my involvement with this new half I have discovered two other new die varieties (1873-S V-2 half dime and Shropshire D&H 13Bis Conder Token), two new edge varieties on Conder tokens, confirmed the discovery of the Invernesshire D&H 6 Conder token, and debunked the existance of a previously "dscovered" variety of Conder token. (Lancashire D&H 137Bis, "discovered sometime between 1970 and 1990, is actually the same as Lincolnshire D&H 3b.)
Post a picture of the whole slab!-Cameron
Will do, as soon as it arrives.
quick update: I was notified that NGC has holdered the coin, it was mailed from Florida on Monday, so today could be the day! (eagerly checked the box Wed and Thurs, looking for that little peach colored slip, but realize Registered can take a little longer, so not really starting to expect it until today)
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
It's a great find and a really memorable event, I'm sure, for all involved. I found out about it after the overlays had been completed -- I look forward to seeing the coin someday in the round.
Congrats Baley! You could have a cottage industry on your hands selling a one page flyer for the rest of us to stick into our Overton books.
John K.
Betts medals, colonial coins, US Mint medals, foreign coins found in early America, and other numismatic Americana
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and thanks for being here to share this with
(my wife just says "that's nice, dear" and hopes that someday I will shut up about the damned coin
just kidding, my friends and family think it's cool, but don't really understand the way you collectors do..
anyway, I don't have it back yet, NGC is taking its sweet time with it but here's the picture from their website:
I'm pretty sure they rotated the rev. image, the eagle should be upside down?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I have no idea how I missed that whole thread but what a very cool find! Congrats and great detective work on the part of yourself and other board members. Of course, the real question now is whether you hang onto it or sell it and go after some cool pre-1800 gold
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
Maybe it's an old enough coin, at 197 years, to transcend the metallurgical preferences of the EACers
Wonder what all was said? Sometimes, during the show, we would stop at a dealer's table who handled early US coins and Steve or Bill or Sheridan would casually mention the news of a new bust half variety found and the dealer would have heard of it and ask if we'd seen it, and they'd reply, yes, here's the owner right here! and that was kind of fun.
I look forward to seeing the coin someday in the round.
I will bring this coin to the next Long Beach show in Sept, hope to see you there.
You could have a cottage industry on your hands selling a one page flyer for the rest of us to stick into our Overton books.
hey that is not a bad idea!
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Dan
The original pictures are on a disk somewhere but i don't have a copy yet.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
So this coin is unique right?
Lets say someone is building a full Overton plus set, then they need your coin right?
Or lets say they are building a shorter set of just the earlier half dollars, they need your coin right?
So is this a $500,000 coin?
On a personal note, I have not had time to do the research on mine we discussed, I will get back to you on that.
Nysoto did have a couple pictures of us taken at Sheridan's table, maybe he can post them or mail them to me and I will do it. And yes, we're a motley crew.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Or lets say they are building a shorter set of just the earlier half dollars, they need your coin right?
Yes, theoretically, if someone were building a complete set of DB halves by variety, they would "need" examples of all marriages, including the very tough R7s and as well as the 4 unique ones. No one has done it yet, I don't know if anyone is trying.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>got a group hug picture of you guys at the show? I heard you all that collect by variety are "Coin Geeks." Just want to see if it's true
Nysoto did have a couple pictures of us taken at Sheridan's table, maybe he can post them or mail them to me and I will do it. And yes, we're a motley crew.
Sheridan is out of the country until July 21st so you will have to wait a while.
I heard you all that collect by variety are "Coin Geeks." Just want to see if it's true.
Here's me and Nysoto at Long Beach on July 3rd:
From Left to right: Henry Hilgard, Sheridan Downey (seated), Bill's O.104, the new O.115 (in hands) ,
then Gary Beedon, myself, Don See, and Steve Herrman
Congratulations again Dude, and glad she's back home. I guess NGC wanted their publicity first.
Thanks again, and that's exactly it. NGC waited until the CW issue went to press before shipping the coin.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
42/92
My OmniCoin Collection
My BankNoteBank Collection
Tom, formerly in Albuquerque, NM.
<< <i>Baley doesn't look happy now, does he ?
It's Steve Herman who looks happiest. He knows this coin is in strong enough hands that he won't have to change the layout when he next updates his Bust Auction Prices.
Jim
<< <i>Yes, theoretically, if someone were building a complete set of DB halves by variety, they would "need" examples of all marriages, including the very tough R7s and as well as the 4 unique ones. No one has done it yet, I don't know if anyone is trying. >>
Well obviously no one has all of them because they would have to have yours, and I don't think the other three unique pieces are in the same hands. I do believe that there HAS been one person who managed to finish a complete set of all of the varieties in the 1970 Overton book which is I think all but the last few new discoveries. I believe 450 varieties. There have been a few others who have gotten within a dozen pieces. The problem is those last few are very rare and are in strong hands. If these half dollar sets were ever auctioned you would probably see something like we did with the early date large cents.
When Robbie Brown sold his complete Sheldon number set in 1986 there were four other collectors there who had complete sets except for the 1795 S-79. So Robbie sold his set and Jack Robinson completed his. When Jack sold in 89 Lee Kuntz completed his. When Lee sold John Frankenfield completed his. When John sold DWH finished his. DWH aquired a second one some how and sold the S-79 back to Robbie Brown, which allowed him to complete the set for a second time. (Robbie is the only person to ever do it twice.) And the It was sold off with Robbies second set in 1996. I don't know who owns it now but his set is not complete. Having a line up of sets like that can really push up the price. The problem comes when you have the last set in the line. The sale price for the S-79 between 1986 and 1996 went like this, RSB I $63,000, JHR $89,000, LK $120,000, JRF $148,000, DWH to RSB about $170,000, RSB II I believe $58,000. Yes Robbie lost over $100,000 on it because there weren't two or more deep pocket collectors needing that last piece to finish their set. (Oh and this coin grades G-5 and has in Robbies words "a serious case of the uglies".
Well done
<< <i>
<< <i>Yes, theoretically, if someone were building a complete set of DB halves by variety, they would "need" examples of all marriages, including the very tough R7s and as well as the 4 unique ones. No one has done it yet, I don't know if anyone is trying. >>
Well obviously no one has all of them because they would have to have yours, and I don't think the other three unique pieces are in the same hands. I do believe that there HAS been one person who managed to finish a complete set of all of the varieties in the 1970 Overton book which is I think all but the last few new discoveries. I believe 450 varieties. There have been a few others who have gotten within a dozen pieces. The problem is those last few are very rare and are in strong hands. If these half dollar sets were ever auctioned you would probably see something like we did with the early date large cents.
>>
No one has ever completed the Draped bust series by variety. Floyd Farley probably came the closest of anyone I know of. Plus he was only a couple of varieties short of completing all 453 capped bust varieties. Charlton Meyer in the late 90's did complete all 453 capped busts...the only time done.
As a side note the John Tidwell collection of capped busts is being sold by Sheridan Downey at Pittsburgh. This collection only lacks the 1829 O-120 (three known). If anyone is interested
Jim (Just stay away from the 1827 O-137
It's Steve Herman who looks happiest. He knows this coin is in strong enough hands that he won't have to change the layout when he next updates his Bust Auction Prices.
Actually, I'm pretty sure Steve will want change the layout of the next AMBPR at least a little bit
At minimum he will rewrite the "editor's notes" on the inside front cover and add a line at the very end of the Draped Bust section.
and yes, I was pretty excited that day!
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
As Conder and Jim mentioned, a complete die marriage collection of capped bust halves was publicly reported in the 90's. For clarification, this was a complete capped bust collection for the Overton 3rd (1990) edition, 450 varieties. The reported collection did not include the 3 crushed lettered edge varieties of 1833, 1834, and 1835, which now are generally accepted and make the 453 capped bust varieties. The CLE's were proofs struck in 1836.
The Flowing Hair and Draped Bust (Pre-Turban) varieties now number 106 with Baley's 1807 O.115. The Pre-Turban collection with the most varieties that was publicly reported was 99 in the 1993 JRCS census, that collection has been sold. The unique coins all currently have seperate owners, athough 1794 O.109 is only unique in silver with Andy Lustig's report of the 2 die trials recently found. The 1795 O.118 is not believed to exist by most and is not included in the totals (remember 1795 O.132 was "rediscovered" after 70 years!).
There are current complete collections of bust half dimes, bust dimes, and bust quarters. An early dollar collection of all die marriages has never been completed, Jules Reiver was close, and I believe another collector now has more varieties than Reiver. The next JRJ will have the ED census.
USMC Veteran 1981-1992
Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
“There are current complete collections of bust half dimes, bust dimes, and bust quarters. An early dollar collection of all die marriages has never been completed, Jules Reiver was close, and I believe another collector now has more varieties than Reiver. The next JRJ will have the ED census.”
“No one has ever completed the Draped bust series by variety. Floyd Farley probably came the closest of anyone I know of. Plus he was only a couple of varieties short of completing all 453 capped bust varieties. Charlton Meyer in the late 90's did complete all 453 capped busts...the only time done.”
“As a side note the John Tidwell collection of capped busts is being sold by Sheridan Downey at Pittsburgh.”
Okbustchaser,
Thanks for the link.
For those of you that follow these sets, I noticed in the Tidwell sale that most of the coins are un-certified? I also noticed a few weeks ago a large collection coming to market in CW, this might be this collection, many of these were also un-certified. Is it the case that many of these older collections containing coins with high R ratings have many cleaned or damaged coins?
Does anyone have the complete list of this sale?
PTVETTER,
O.K. well Sir, who would that be? The Dealer Seller?
Some of these coins in this sale appear to have severe damage the 1817/4, a nearly impossible coin to find, has PVC green all over the coin. Will this coin bring high bids even in this condition? knowing that the coin can never be certified?
This is in no way a slam on a great collection, but a serious question from a Bust half collector.
Out of my personal collection of 93 of these coins, 32 have been body bagged by the TPG'S.
Some of these coins fall in the R4 to R6 catagory, and I have wondered if I should keep them?
Many of these older Bust halves do not match up with coins in the Overton book. I own at least 2 of these
that Baley and i have already discussed here.
This coins is marked as follows:
1823 O.113 R.7 Fine. Olin Carter's discovery coin! Ex Farley.
Without being certified just exactly is the final judge on a coin like this being a discovery coin.
<< <i>"The Early coins have to be graded by someone that knows the coins. "
Some of these coins in this sale appear to have severe damage the 1817/4, a nearly impossible coin to find, has PVC green all over the coin. Will this coin bring high bids even in this condition? knowing that the coin can never be certified?
This is in no way a slam on a great collection, but a serious question from a Bust half collector.
Out of my personal collection of 93 of these coins, 32 have been body bagged by the TPG'S.
Some of these coins fall in the R4 to R6 catagory, and I have wondered if I should keep them? >>
Will the 1817/4 bring big money even in this condition? VERY BIG. In fact, it is already gone.
As to your body bagged R4- R6 coins and whether or not you should keep them? Nawww....they are basically worthless. Send them to me and I will even pay the postage!!!
Serious answer...although they won't draw the premium an undamaged coin would believe me, the R-5's and 6's WILL still draw a large premium over type.
Jim