<< <i>"The Early coins have to be graded by someone that knows the coins. "
Some of these coins in this sale appear to have severe damage the 1817/4, a nearly impossible coin to find, has PVC green all over the coin. Will this coin bring high bids even in this condition? knowing that the coin can never be certified?
This is in no way a slam on a great collection, but a serious question from a Bust half collector. Out of my personal collection of 93 of these coins, 32 have been body bagged by the TPG'S. Some of these coins fall in the R4 to R6 catagory, and I have wondered if I should keep them? >>
Will the 1817/4 bring big money even in this condition? VERY BIG. In fact, it is already gone.
As to your body bagged R4- R6 coins and whether or not you should keep them? Nawww....they are basically worthless. Send them to me and I will even pay the postage!!!.
Serious answer...although, of course, they won't draw the premium an undamaged coin would, believe me, the R-5's and 6's WILL still draw a large premium over type.
Jim >>
Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
"Will the 1817/4 bring big money even in this condition? VERY BIG. In fact, it is already gone."
Jim, can you tell me what it sold for?
"As to your body bagged R4- R6 coins and whether or not you should keep them? Nawww....they are basically worthless. Send them to me and I will even pay the postage!!!"
Many many many Bust coins at some time in their lives, have been cleaned, scratched, or otherwise damaged. And many of the really serious variety collectors of Bust coins, tend to be anti-plastic. A lot of them want to see the 3rd side of the coin. Look at Russ Logan. He had a complete Die Marriage set of Capped Bust Half-Dimes (And maybe even a complete marriage set of Bust Dimes too, but I really don't know) and he busted every single certified coin he bought out... he loved to study the 3rd side. Even to the point, that in Logan and McCloskey's book on Federal Half-Dimes, they identified EVERY collar used to strike CBHDs, right down to the number of reeds and to the range in diameter for each collar.
As to your coins, yes, the R4-R6 coins will definately carry a nice premium, though obviously not as much as an undamaged piece, but will still be sought after by collectors...
Yery few if any advanced specialist die variety collectors of early material have their coins in slabs. Most of them are even anti-slab collectors. Unfortunately the slabs are making inroads into our hobby as well. I was shocked at the number of slabs that I saw at the last EAC convention I attended in Cincinnati last year. At least 15% of the coins displayed in the dealers cases were slabbed. Before that, in 1998, there weren't any.
No it doesn't matter whether R-5 and better material is slabbable. When you have several hundred SERIOUS collectors actively looking for a coin that has less than 75 pieces in existance in ANY condition (Or in the case of the 17/14 half dollar 5 - 7 pieces known total) there will be demand for them in any condition. Think about it, if there is a coin you really want that only shows up on the market about once every twenty years or even less often, and you have the chance at one, are you going to pass because it isn't slabbable? Even though there is a good chance you will NEVER have the opportunity again? And there are dozens or hundreds of people in the same boat you are.
You know Baley I could use that NGC coin in my registry set.Then at least I would have a coin that our friend Dale did not have. Have you been watching the news latley the World is in terrible shape, maybe you can PM me and cut your losses, Ha Ha
I notice that Glenn Peterson has found a second specimen of the 1807 O-115 that was already in his collection. Do you suppose he will have to alter his book, The Ultimate Guide to Attributing Bust Half Dollars?
I notice that Glenn Peterson has found a second specimen of the 1807 O-115 that was already in his collection. Do you suppose he will have to alter his book, The Ultimate Guide to Attributing Bust Half Dollars?
I too have heard this, and seen a somewhat grainy photograph of the coin. I suppose Glenn will indeed revise the book at some point
Ok, still an R8 coin, with 1-3 known, wonder how many more will turn up??
It's still cool Baley... It's funny how one person said it would be a shame if you broke yours out of the "Discovery Coin" slab... but really... as long as the population remains small... it will still be easilly discerned as the Discovery coin... If the 3 examples of the 1833 LM-5 Half-Dime (The only R8 CBHD Die Marriage) were laid out in front of me, I could easilly pick out the Discovery coin...
I believe that Dr. Glenn Peterson's book, "The Ultimate Guide to Attributing Bust Half Dollars", covers only the Capped Bust Half series, the Flowing Hair and Draped Bust coins are not included.
Bill
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
<< <i>I believe that Dr. Glenn Peterson's book, "The Ultimate Guide to Attributing Bust Half Dollars", covers only the Capped Bust Half series, the Flowing Hair and Draped Bust coins are not included. Bill >>
Maybe this will encourage him to expand his coverage, then!
I looked at the book for a short moment at a convention, and was amazed by the detailed photography used in it's production. It ALMOST made me wish for a second there were more dime marriages so that a similar book could be produced for them. . . . . . Then I regained my senses.
Now that a couple years have passed, some more info can be told. The third 07 115 was bought off the ebay seller for around the auction price it was stalled at. It was brought to FUN and examined by several people, and sold thru a well known bust dealer into a famous collection. The sale price was well below what the Peterson example brought. The coin was first turned down by a preturb whale for being excessively fugly, and the current owner hates it as well. No new examples have surfaced since this one.
Since Baley shared a reference to this 2003 thread from a coin discovery thread, I want to post a question regarding Baley's coin regarding current rarity. Baley mentioned that the 4th specimen was noticed in 2008. It's now almost 2014 - any updates? What would be the considered market value of Baley's coin now?
Two of the coins still remain with their owners. The highest graded, the P20, sold for $24,150 almost four years ago at FUN and the coin I consider to be the finest, the P12, sold in a Downey sale for $17k and change.
I rank the four as follows-
1. P12, now in an eastern collection and the most recently discovered. Very nice for the grade with no problems.
2. N20, the discovery coin. It has some corrosion or other surface issues according to two who have seen the coin. I haven't seen this coin.
3. P20 ex Meyer, not as nice as it appears in the Heritage image (cleaned) and it has that scratch. That captivating scratch.
4. The buried example. It is ugly.
Who knows what any of these coins would sell for on any given day? The preturb market in general is very thin and one person showing up can set the market for a couple years as has happened recently.
Fantastic find and a wonderful thread. Huge congrats, Baley. I love the insights from so many great experts.
I imagine every O.104 has been scrutinized by now. I've only checked two with no luck.
"Why so rare?" is anyone's guess. I suppose the die pair was taken out of service quickly, but not because of die failure.
Was it ever determined where the O.115 sits with regard to emission order? It would be fun to learn it was last (just after the O.103, the last pre-turb) and striking of turban halves was the reason for its short life.
In Steve Tompkin's new book on early half dollars (a great book, btw) he has stated that a fifth example of 1807 T-10 is "Rumored to exist" as a F15. I suppose there are a few more out there, especially since this one is not easy to attribute.
Steve has T-10 as the second to last draped bust half dollar, as T-11 has die stages on the reverse (same rev die as T-10) including a crack, that places it after T-10 in emission. This still could cause the rarity, as T-10 could have been pulled for some reason, then T-11 finished the series. The T-10 also shares some attributes with two other 1807's that could have been experimental.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
Thanks Nysoto, very interesting. Perhaps after a few impressions, Obv 12, used only for T-10, was pulled because of the unsatisfactory impression of the R in Liberty, and/or the two "bullet" projections behind the head. One could speculate that they might have tried to improve the die further and return it to service, but either they made it worse, or, more likely, the new design of dies became ready, and T-11 was simply the end of the draped bust design.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>"The Early coins have to be graded by someone that knows the coins. "
Some of these coins in this sale appear to have severe damage the 1817/4, a nearly impossible coin to find, has PVC green all over the coin. Will this coin bring high bids even in this condition? knowing that the coin can never be certified?
This is in no way a slam on a great collection, but a serious question from a Bust half collector.
Out of my personal collection of 93 of these coins, 32 have been body bagged by the TPG'S.
Some of these coins fall in the R4 to R6 catagory, and I have wondered if I should keep them? >>
Will the 1817/4 bring big money even in this condition? VERY BIG. In fact, it is already gone.
As to your body bagged R4- R6 coins and whether or not you should keep them? Nawww....they are basically worthless. Send them to me and I will even pay the postage!!!
Serious answer...although, of course, they won't draw the premium an undamaged coin would, believe me, the R-5's and 6's WILL still draw a large premium over type.
Jim >>
Jim, can you tell me what it sold for?
"As to your body bagged R4- R6 coins and whether or not you should keep them? Nawww....they are basically worthless. Send them to me and I will even pay the postage!!!"
Alrighty Then, did you P.M. me your address?
As to your coins, yes, the R4-R6 coins will definately carry a nice premium, though obviously not as much as an undamaged piece, but will still be sought after by collectors...
42/92
No it doesn't matter whether R-5 and better material is slabbable. When you have several hundred SERIOUS collectors actively looking for a coin that has less than 75 pieces in existance in ANY condition (Or in the case of the 17/14 half dollar 5 - 7 pieces known total) there will be demand for them in any condition. Think about it, if there is a coin you really want that only shows up on the market about once every twenty years or even less often, and you have the chance at one, are you going to pass because it isn't slabbable? Even though there is a good chance you will NEVER have the opportunity again? And there are dozens or hundreds of people in the same boat you are.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
42/92
Cool Things
Bust Coin Forum
I too have heard this, and seen a somewhat grainy photograph of the coin.
I suppose Glenn will indeed revise the book at some point
Ok, still an R8 coin, with 1-3 known, wonder how many more will turn up??
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
42/92
Bill
<< <i>I believe that Dr. Glenn Peterson's book, "The Ultimate Guide to Attributing Bust Half Dollars", covers only the Capped Bust Half series, the Flowing Hair and Draped Bust coins are not included. Bill >>
Maybe this will encourage him to expand his coverage, then!
I looked at the book for a short moment at a convention, and was amazed by the detailed photography used in it's production. It ALMOST made me wish for a second there were more dime marriages so that a similar book could be produced for them. . . . . . Then I regained my senses.
Cool Things
Bust Coin Forum
A third example has been discovered
Any new developments? Has it changed hands?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
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<< <i>Let's TTT this one for the newbies
Good move
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>I just checked my example and its still just a lonely O-102
Mine hasn't changed any either.
Also, congratulations on your awesome find! (Even though I'm 6 years late!)
-Paul
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I've got an unattributed 1807 PCGS MS62. I'll have to check it.
One of those things I keep putting off.
<< <i>Nice!!
I've got an unattributed 1807 PCGS MS62. I'll have to check it.
One of those things I keep putting off.
thanks! You should consider checking it, might even be an O-116
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
If so, that's AWESOME!!!
And Baley - what a discovery and what a thread!
I rank the four as follows-
1. P12, now in an eastern collection and the most recently discovered. Very nice for the grade with no problems.
2. N20, the discovery coin. It has some corrosion or other surface issues according to two who have seen the coin. I haven't seen this coin.
3. P20 ex Meyer, not as nice as it appears in the Heritage image (cleaned) and it has that scratch. That captivating scratch.
4. The buried example. It is ugly.
Who knows what any of these coins would sell for on any given day? The preturb market in general is very thin and one person showing up can set the market for a couple years as has happened recently.
A little late for a congrats probably but congrats anyway!
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I imagine every O.104 has been scrutinized by now. I've only checked two with no luck.
"Why so rare?" is anyone's guess. I suppose the die pair was taken out of service quickly, but not because of die failure.
Was it ever determined where the O.115 sits with regard to emission order? It would be fun to learn it was last (just after the O.103, the last pre-turb) and striking of turban halves was the reason for its short life.
Lance.
In Steve Tompkin's new book on early half dollars (a great book, btw) he has stated that a fifth example of 1807 T-10 is "Rumored to exist" as a F15. I suppose there are a few more out there, especially since this one is not easy to attribute.
Steve has T-10 as the second to last draped bust half dollar, as T-11 has die stages on the reverse (same rev die as T-10) including a crack, that places it after T-10 in emission. This still could cause the rarity, as T-10 could have been pulled for some reason, then T-11 finished the series. The T-10 also shares some attributes with two other 1807's that could have been experimental.
Thanks Nysoto, very interesting. Perhaps after a few impressions, Obv 12, used only for T-10, was pulled because of the unsatisfactory impression of the R in Liberty, and/or the two "bullet" projections behind the head. One could speculate that they might have tried to improve the die further and return it to service, but either they made it worse, or, more likely, the new design of dies became ready, and T-11 was simply the end of the draped bust design.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry