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The NTC Experiment---or---is NTC as bad as we give them credit for?
keets
Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
This all happened by accident. I know someone who recently was offered a group of coins which were all holdered by NTC. Before making a decision, he went through them and noted the holdered grade and his grade, with any notation he felt was pertinent.
I'll add that I'm generally in agreement with this gentlemans grading, especially on circulated coins which constituted the bulk of this group. Since most of the trash talking here with regards to NTC holdered coins is directed at Mint-State-Modern coinage, I'd ask that everyone try to be at least somewhat unbiased as they peruse the list. Remember, I'm posting this simply as information, not to pass judgement either way on the service.
Here's the list in no particular order:
Indian Head Cents
Date-------NTC Grade-------Our Grade-------Notes
1867----------XF-45--------------XF
1873----------AU-55--------------XF
1877----------AG-3----------------AG
1877----------G-6------------------G
1908-S--------VG-10--------------VG
1908-S--------VF-35---------------F
1909-S--------G-4------------------G------------Spotted
1909-S--------VG-8----------------VG
Lincoln Cents
Date-------NTC Grade-------Our Grade-------Notes
1909-S--------G-4----------------G
1909-S--------VG-10-------------VG-------------The holdered coin is actually a 1914-D.
1909-S--------F-15---------------F
1909-S--------VF-25-------------VF
1909-S--------XF-40-------------VF/XF
1909-S--------XF-45-------------XF
1909-S--------MS-63RD---------MS-60----------Spotted
1909-S VDB---F-12--------------F
1909-S VDB---VF-20-------------F
1909-S VDB---XF-40-------------VF/XF
1909-S VDB---MS-64RB---------MS-60/62-----Spotted
1914-D--------G-4----------------AG/G
1914-D--------VG-8--------------VG--------------The holdered coin is actually a 1909-S.
1914-D--------F-12---------------F
1922-D--------F-------------------G/AG-----------Type 3.
Washington Quarters
Date-------NTC Grade-------Our Grade-------Notes
1932-D-------AG-3---------------AG
1932-D-------AG-3---------------AG
1932-D--------G-4----------------G
1932-D--------G-6----------------G
1932-D--------G-6----------------G
1932-D--------VG-10-------------VG
1932-D--------VG-10-------------VG
1932-D--------F-15----------------F
1932-D--------VF-30--------------VF
1932-D--------XF-40--------------XF
1932-S--------AG-3---------------AG
1932-S--------F-12---------------F
1932-S--------F-12---------------F
1932-S--------F-15---------------F
1932-S--------VF-20-------------F
1932-S--------VF-20-------------F------------------Damaged with 4 rim cuts.
Bust Dollar
Date-------NTC Grade-------Our Grade-------Notes
1800----------VF-25--------------VF----------------How'd that get in there!!!!!!!!
Fire away with comments but no threats, please.
Al H.
edited for the title
!!!
I'll add that I'm generally in agreement with this gentlemans grading, especially on circulated coins which constituted the bulk of this group. Since most of the trash talking here with regards to NTC holdered coins is directed at Mint-State-Modern coinage, I'd ask that everyone try to be at least somewhat unbiased as they peruse the list. Remember, I'm posting this simply as information, not to pass judgement either way on the service.
Here's the list in no particular order:
Indian Head Cents
Date-------NTC Grade-------Our Grade-------Notes
1867----------XF-45--------------XF
1873----------AU-55--------------XF
1877----------AG-3----------------AG
1877----------G-6------------------G
1908-S--------VG-10--------------VG
1908-S--------VF-35---------------F
1909-S--------G-4------------------G------------Spotted
1909-S--------VG-8----------------VG
Lincoln Cents
Date-------NTC Grade-------Our Grade-------Notes
1909-S--------G-4----------------G
1909-S--------VG-10-------------VG-------------The holdered coin is actually a 1914-D.
1909-S--------F-15---------------F
1909-S--------VF-25-------------VF
1909-S--------XF-40-------------VF/XF
1909-S--------XF-45-------------XF
1909-S--------MS-63RD---------MS-60----------Spotted
1909-S VDB---F-12--------------F
1909-S VDB---VF-20-------------F
1909-S VDB---XF-40-------------VF/XF
1909-S VDB---MS-64RB---------MS-60/62-----Spotted
1914-D--------G-4----------------AG/G
1914-D--------VG-8--------------VG--------------The holdered coin is actually a 1909-S.
1914-D--------F-12---------------F
1922-D--------F-------------------G/AG-----------Type 3.
Washington Quarters
Date-------NTC Grade-------Our Grade-------Notes
1932-D-------AG-3---------------AG
1932-D-------AG-3---------------AG
1932-D--------G-4----------------G
1932-D--------G-6----------------G
1932-D--------G-6----------------G
1932-D--------VG-10-------------VG
1932-D--------VG-10-------------VG
1932-D--------F-15----------------F
1932-D--------VF-30--------------VF
1932-D--------XF-40--------------XF
1932-S--------AG-3---------------AG
1932-S--------F-12---------------F
1932-S--------F-12---------------F
1932-S--------F-15---------------F
1932-S--------VF-20-------------F
1932-S--------VF-20-------------F------------------Damaged with 4 rim cuts.
Bust Dollar
Date-------NTC Grade-------Our Grade-------Notes
1800----------VF-25--------------VF----------------How'd that get in there!!!!!!!!
Fire away with comments but no threats, please.
Al H.
edited for the title
!!! 0
Comments
Cameron Kiefer
If you get more information, please keep us updated.
Tom
cut me some slack here, OK. we weren't trying to be a grading company and we were'nt trying to nit-pick or prove anything. simply looking at the coin and judging VF, F, XF...........where there was some question it is a split grade. otherwise it should be assumed as F meaning solid F.
the point of this whole thing is only to provide information., no kind of assessment on our part. that's for you to do......or should i say have done. chill dude.
al h.
20% were definitely overgraded, by your standards, including the only two mint state coins.
None were undergraded.
5% were apparently placed in the wrong slabs.
okay, I have one comment, "not particularly impressed."
z
For some life lasts a short while, but the memories it holds last forever.
-Laura Swenson
In memory of BL, SM, and KG. 16 and forever young, rest in peace.
Cameron Kiefer
I've bought a couple dozen NTC slabbed 1964 proof Kennedys and every single one was overgraded by a wide margin. Worse than ACG. But, who knows, maybe they only suck ass in proof Kennedys and do fine with all other series.
Russ, NCNE
al h.
A collector with a good eye could replicate this performance from any grading company - including ACG. Likewise, if one so desired, the polar opposite could be done with even PCGS.
hey Eric
what did you make that assumption based on? certainly not anything in my post. did you read the opening 2 paragraphs or jump right to the coin list and think?
Remember, I'm posting this simply as information, not to pass judgement either way on the service.
i guess i was being somewhat prophetical when i added, tongue in cheek i might say, fire away. i can take the jabs, but before we get too far into it, my sole purpose was to present this as information and not as a commentary or anything about the service.
such a wonderful day today, maybe i should go work in the garden or kick the dog!!
al h.
edited to fix the bold trauma!!
Sorry, but it still looks to me as if the idea here is to give some credence to NTC, which is no better than ACG. That was one of the things I went to Charlotte for, to get a good close look at NTC Morgans, and I can tell you that their grading is a sham. TDN's post is a good explanation for what may have occured here. And for the most part, these are all highly circulated coins. As I said earlier, send them off to PCGS or NGC, or for that matter, ANACS and see what you get. I would be surprised if half of them come back with the same grades as what are on the NTC labels.
it was random in so much as the coins were what was offered for sale. perhaps the seller did as you suggest, i have no way of knowing about that. all my intentions are is to say "this is what we saw and this is what we thought they graded" period.
now eddie, where in the world did you come up with that???? my patience with stupid people is never very high, so make some sense, OK? you have entrenched yourself here as somewhat of the forum fool, so you don't have to audition for the part, it's already yours!! please accept this list in the spirit of helpfull information that it was given in or move on, my friend. we certainly don't need to joust on this thread.
have you a short memory?? you are a poor knight and usually get knocked off your horse, high-horse that is.
al h.
i edited the title so as not to mislead or be misunderstood. perhaps NTC is as bad as ACG. my experience with them was limited to MS and Proof moderns which i see as mostly overgraded, prior to this. i simply posted what we saw. if you're unable to accept the fact that a company is capable of grading correctly sometime, so be it. have some Black Cherry!!
there will be no sending off anywhere. the coins aren't mine and i never had any thoughts of buying them, i just thought i'd come here and say.................but i see some minds are set like a steel trap and there's nothing wrong with that.
personally Eric, oh, never mind.
al h.
Let me say it another way, since you seem to be having trouble comprehending things today. Your grading opinion was just slightly better than NTC's opinion. So, either NTC graded those coins conservatively (bwuahahahahahha).......or you have loosened your grading standards.
Just in case I haven't made my position totally clear, in my opinion, NTC, ACG and the new PCI exist simply to sell overgraded and problem coins to unsupecting people, mainly via online auctions. Their grading and authenication is absolutely abysmal, and if you want to believe otherwise, that is your privilege. However, any time I see anyone attempting to give any one of these three companies any sort of credence whatsoever, they will hear my opinion.
David
How is your dog, has he bit you yet? BTW, I get what you were trying to do and say. See you in Baltimore, hopefully.
BUY THE COIN...NOT THE SLAB!!!
Frank
<< <i>As Lori showed earlier, she found a $1500 coin in a misgraded NTC holder. >>
Whoah! Where? What? That woman is having way too much goodness lately. She needs to leave some for the rest of us!
Russ, NCNE
since we're into opinions, here's mine, Eric. no, no maybe i better not. i'll get back to eddie......hey, i better not go there either.
you guys have a nice day. i regret trying to be helpful. if anyone has anything unbiased or constructive about what i posted, please PM and we can enter into a reasoned discussion of what i had in hand to look at. otherwise, i guess this can die a slow death on page 7 and we can bury our heads in the sand, those who choose to do so.
i'm anxious for the next time i see a post to buy the coin and not the holder.
al h.
<< <i>Frank, that is fine and dandy if you go to shows and can look before you buy. But the truth is, NTC, ACG and PCI coins are specifically targeted to those who buy in online auctions, and sight unseen. These companies would not survive for three months otherwise. Sure, they will screw up on a very occasional coin, but I can just about bet you if you randomly bought 100 of these coins online, at least 90 of them would be overgraded or have problems. And this is the problem I have with Keets post, it is not representive of the NTC slabs that are out there >>
Eric - I think you've hit the nail on the head. And in my book when you buy coins in these holders, you might as well buy them raw. I too have looked at my share of third tier coins at auctions and shows, particularly Franklins, and like yours, my experience has been that I've not purchased one for cracking and re-submitting since I started getting seriously into my collecting. This is the main concern I have with allowing rare coins into retirement plans. You'll have a flood of unscrupulous marketers hawking this cra p and people will be taken to the cleaners. So, yes, as with other advice that has been given and will hopefully continue to be given in these boards, buyers must be very aware of what they're sinking their money into, because certified grading is merely an opinion. If you don't have some "meat on the bone" left when you get a coin graded, you're running one heck of a risk on high priced coins.
Frank
<< <i>i'm anxious for the next time i see a post to buy the coin and not the holder. >>
This is what I am saying, you can not buy the coin and not the holder when you buy online, which, as I stated in my last post, is what these slabs are targeted for. This company sprung up from an eBay seller who hawked ACG garbage, and apparently he got tired of paying AH his "preferred" rate for seriously overgrading coins. Sure, you may find some that aren't overgraded, but I guarantee you if you buy a large random sample off eBay or any other online venue you are going to get burned.
Long story short: grading companies are evil and they are only getting worse.
Admittingly- on the higher proof and mint state coins, especially Moderns, the grades are a couple too high. For example I had what I thought was a killer 1965 SMS in PCI MS69. Pretty nice CAM (for a 1965) and crossed with NGC. The coin arrived earlier this week and is an NGC MS67 (SMS). No CAM. Dang.
So, my success rate on the higher grades prove out to be a point or two off (MS68 PCI Clad Ike is now a NGC MS66- in the same grouping as the SMS Kennedy). But circulated? They're pretty good- based on my experience.
peacockcoins
The big attraction to NTC or PCI is how quickly and cheaply they can turn around orders.
I wish PCGS did not require 75 days for an economy turn around. If that time were half as long, I believe some of the other grading companies would suffer greatly.
My only issue is if PCGS is the leader (and I think they are), why are people still submitting to NGC or ANACS. I see no great difference in cost or turnaround time when using NGC or ANACS as compared to PCGS. Am I missing something or am I misinformed?
Numonebuyer
<< <i>Long story short: grading companies are evil and they are only getting worse. >>
The unfortunate problem with this statement is that without the grading companies, the hobby would be in much worse shape. Recall the headdy days of the 70's and 80's when people were losing their shirts because people in the coin business were calling anything with shine on it CH GEM BU. The grading services do set a standard, and it's up to us who are in the hobby to make sure that the standard is used. At least now we have something to cling on to. Before it was chaos. And no - I'm not talking about the coins in major collections, I'm talking about those bought by the little guy like you and me.
<< <i>The big attraction to NTC or PCI is how quickly and cheaply they can turn around orders. >>
And, how easily one can get a problem coin in to one of their holders, or get two or three extra points on the label. If the real issue were just turnaround time, the coins would be going to NGC. See below.
<< <i>I see no great difference in cost or turnaround time when using NGC or ANACS as compared to PCGS. >>
I don't know about ANACS, but NGC is consistently turning around economy submissions in under 30 calendar days.
Russ, NCNE
A lot of them still play this game. Not only do all of the grading services suck lately, I also think that most coin dealers suck. To be fair, I will say that there are a few really good dealers, including several whom are a part of this forum. From those dealers I buy both raw and certified coins (buy the coin not the holder). These dealers have one thing in common: honest. Unfortuanately, I can't find one nice thing to say about ANY grading service. They make me sick.
<< <i>A lot of them still play this game. >>
And hence the best thing for us to do is to continue our process of educating ourselves in the hobby. Only when you have the "cojones" to look a dealer in the eye and disagree with him/her based on solid factual information will you ever do well in this hobby.
See boys - we can agree sometimes!
<< <i>. As Lori showed earlier, she found a $1500 coin in a misgraded NTC holder. >>
Frank- What coin are we talking about here? Are you saying Lori cracked a coin out of a NTC holder and had it holdered at PCGS at a level that will bring $1,500? Wow! I had not read of this. More details please.
Keets- I appreciate the intent of your experiment. To know that you and another collector essentially agree with the NTC grades about 80% of the time is a good bit of knowledge. Can you tell us if the seller had submitted the coins to NTC? If he did then I would consider the group of coins to be relatively "random". If not, then it brings into account the "collector's good eye" and makes the sample less random. Glad to know you are open-minded enough to actually do some work in assessing another grading service. I've not seen many NTC coins. I've bought and sold a few Franklins, both proof and business strikes, and don't find their grading of the Franklin series to be very accurate. However, I would never try and condemn any grading service for their work on only one series. I think it is important to personally assess at least 100 coins in a series and at least 8 or 9 series before you can make a good judgement of a grading service.
<< <i>However, I would never try and condemn any grading service for their work on only one series. I think it is important to personally assess at least 100 coins in a series and at least 8 or 9 series before you can make a good judgement of a grading service. >>
What other series is there besides Morgan Dollars?
...Ken
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.This coin was in an ACG MS65FBL. I agreed with the grade, cracked it out, submitted, and.....Viola......
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Sorry, but I can sit here the rest of the evening and post thirty horror stories about people who got screwed buying ACG slabs to your one.
1895-O Morgan Dollar ACG "AU53"
There have also been comments in this thread on PCI. I have several PCI coins in my collection. Of the pre-1934 pieces I would rate most as mid-range to low range of grade but not always. One coin is a 1914 Lincoln which PCI graded MS65 RED. The coin is a fully original blazer and may actually be undergraded! All of the PCI coins (including the 1914 cent) were obtained at steep discounts versus buying a PCGS coin. I rate them as good values for the money. I will but PCI coins but only when a return priv. is offered.
Green Label, ten digit serial number- Very conservative grading, at all grades. These slabs with a PQ designation almost always upgrade a point at PCGS. All PCI slabs seem to be lumped together on eBay as far as price goes, so you can find some real steals on these slabs.
Green Label, fourteen digit serial number- Accurate grading up to MS65. Very liberal on MS66 and above. Again, great deals can be had on these, but stay away from MS66 and over.
Green Label, nine digit serial number- The serial numbers on PCI slabs went to nine digits when the ownership changed. Grading became atrocious, usually Morgans overgraded by at least two points, cleaned coins with no mention on the holder, and altered coins slabbed as genuine. Absolutely stay away from these slabs.
Gold Label, nine digit serial number- Same as above, atrocious grading.