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The NTC Experiment---or---is NTC as bad as we give them credit for?

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  • << <i>I was wondering when that con artist was going to start hawking NTC slabs. >>



    What's that comment based on?
  • DCAMFranklinDCAMFranklin Posts: 2,862 ✭✭


    << <i>I was wondering when that con artist was going to start hawking NTC slabs. >>



    That would be pretty strong language. I would like to hear some justification for that kind of labeling.


    image
  • K6AZK6AZ Posts: 9,295
    Only because you hawk them as well.
  • DCAMFranklinDCAMFranklin Posts: 2,862 ✭✭
    That would be a LIE! I bought a small group, sampling, to see how I felt about their grading of Franklins. I didn't keep any of the sampling and sold them off. I have never submitted even one single coin to NTC. I do not own even one single Franklin in a NTC holder. I do have a very nice Cameo cent that I intend to crack out and submit to NGC. Clear enough?


    image
  • braddickbraddick Posts: 24,806 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I was wondering when that con artist was going to start hawking NTC slabs. >>

    I've purchased from this Seller with good results. Should I now be leary?

    peacockcoins

  • DCAMFranklinDCAMFranklin Posts: 2,862 ✭✭


    << <i>I was wondering when that con artist was going to start hawking NTC slabs. >>



    K6AZ- I'm still interested in hearing your FACTual justification for making such an accusation. That's pretty strong language and deserves some substantiation. Don't you think?


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  • that 1795 10.00 has been tooled and would be bagged by anyone who knows what they are looking at..that would exclude dcamfranklin 4thstooge and most others..k6az you are correct ntc sucks
  • 1909-S--------VG-10-------------VG-------------The holdered coin is actually a 1914-D.

    1914-D--------VG-8--------------VG--------------The holdered coin is actually a 1909-S.

    Are the graders at NTC Lysdexic (or is that Dyslexic......hmmmm) or are they just visually impaired?
    "Donate your money to Enron and Worldcom....the largest non-profit companies in world history...Or just buy some nice coins for your portfolio" - Dixfer

    "Always tell the truth; then you don't have to remember anything." - Mark Twain
  • BarryBarry Posts: 10,100 ✭✭✭
    Anitacoin has a long history of buying coins on Ebay, either raw or in reputable slabs, and shortly thereafter, they reappear for sale by him in bottom-feeder slabs, listed for much higher prices. I would never buy anything he sells.
  • Barry,
    Thank you for the insight. K6AZ and Jupiter are only interested in slamming others.
  • From the photo, obverse only, I can see no evidence of re-engraving. But ask yourself this: Why would ANY dealer try to sell a $20,00 coin that's in a 3rd tier holder? To save a few $$ on grading fees?

    Nah.....that coin could would almost certainly have been body bagged by PCGS or NGC, either for cleaning or altered surface, hence the use of NTC as the grading company.

    Anitacoin is blocked from bidding on my eBay auctions because of his dealing with and marketing ACG, NTC and PCI slabbed coins. Nuff said.

    Ira (iras4 on eBay)

    Dealer/old-time collector
  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    hey dixfer

    you make a good point in noting those two coins, a point which was seemingly missed by a few of the early replies. it's quite obvious that when the coins were slabbed there was a labeling mistake. it seems clear that this was a large group of coins submitted at one time by one person and the nature of the entire collection that was being offered for sale would seem to substantiate that. yet there are some who want to add circumstances to a simple thing. to wit-----that this was a cream-of-the-crop grouping assembled by someone and it isn't in any form representative.

    a good example of dorkkarl's reference to Occhams Razor: the simplest explanation tends to be the correct one. in this case, it's simply to easy for some to accept that a collector chose his submission coins, sent them to NTC, they were graded and i posted what we saw in the holders and what it said on the insert. nothing sinister about that, is there??

    perhaps there are some Drama Queens on board who need to invent excitement.

    al h.image
  • This is off the subject, but I think NTC's capsules are attractive.
  • braddickbraddick Posts: 24,806 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>This is off the subject, but I think NTC's capsules are attractive. >>

    In a "Martha Stewart" kind of way?! image

    peacockcoins

  • "From the photo, obverse only, I can see no evidence of re-engraving."" iras4..I wouldnt quit my day job if I were you thats a worked on tooled coin from 4 miles away..4thstooge..are you Hagers lawyer or just a defender of lowlifes, cheats and scumbags..k6az..you are doing a noble job and are correct on all counts..pay no attention to jerks, fools,stooges and nocam
  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,691 ✭✭✭
    dudes, get over it. plastic don't matter, buy the coin if you like it

    K S
  • clackamasclackamas Posts: 5,615
    Keets,

    I had no iea you were as bad a grader as NTC. image

  • NumisEdNumisEd Posts: 1,336
    From the photo, obverse only, I can see no evidence of re-engraving

    Ira, I agree with Jupiter...don't quit your day job. You also were the ONLY one who thought that the Chain Cent and Wreath Cent in a thread a few days ago were real, when everyone else was quick to point out that they were cast counterfeits. Maybe you should stick to state quarters.



    This is off the subject, but I think NTC's capsules are attractive.

    Uh, jadecoin, are you kidding me? You guys are being sarcastic, right? NO plastic is attractive. Period. NTC slabs suck. Have you ever looked closely at one? They are a joke. I am starting to get concerned by your comment. Please explain.
  • newsmannewsman Posts: 2,658 ✭✭✭
    Jupiter and NumisEd,

    How do you all know that coin was tooled? I'm not trying to flame anyone, just learn. image

    Chuck
  • newsman..if you want to learn your in the wrong place..most here know very little to zero about coins..and the few that do are dealers here to get customers
  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,691 ✭✭✭
    the $10 appears holed & plugged between "L" & "I".

    K S
  • NumisEdNumisEd Posts: 1,336
    ......and it was in a jewelry mount. Also, the coin has been polished, but then retoned (or colored) to hide the damage. TOTAL piece of crap.

    Edited to say: total piece of crap, but I would still love to own it since I luv early type coins. The problem is that some newbie collector with big pockets will pay too much for the coin because of the slab that it's in. They might get NTC confused with NGC. NTC really, really sucks. To be fair, I have heard that they are very consistent graders of elongated modern cents and pretty good at grading subway tokens.
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭


    << <i>newsman..if you want to learn your in the wrong place..most here know very little to zero about coins..and the few that do are dealers here to get customers >>



    Jupiter,

    If this forum sucks so bad, why are you here?

    Russ, NCNE
  • K6AZK6AZ Posts: 9,295
    DCAM are you trying to tell me you have never sold a NTC slab?
  • BarryBarry Posts: 10,100 ✭✭✭


    << <i>the $10 appears holed & plugged between "L" & "I". >>


    Good pickup, Karl. I think you're right!
  • .This coin was in an ACG MS65FBL. I agreed with the grade, cracked it out, submitted, and.....Viola......
    ..


    image
  • zennyzenny Posts: 1,547 ✭✭
    deja vu


    and YES, NTC is as bad as we give them credit for, can we stop now?
  • can we stop now? Why? If you don't want to read the thread, don't click on it....Ken
  • K6AZK6AZ Posts: 9,295
    And here is a board member who almost got burned for $500 on an ACG slug:

    1895-O Morgan ACG "AU53"
  • zennyzenny Posts: 1,547 ✭✭
    I think it's pretty obvious that Keets' bunch of coins was, in a way, just like the stupid coinworld "grading test." bunch of low grade coins, most of which don't belong in a slab anyway, not going to prove anything one way or another if they're vg-f-vf, whatever.

    I think we've all had enough experience to know that the really good coins generally don't end up in the lower tiered tpg slabs, simple fact. Every once in a blue moon one is found, it is properly graded and, "viola," someone pops the freakin thing out and places it in a proper slab, obviously embarassed to have it in something other than pcgs (or ngc).

    If anyone here is goofy enough to spend $20,000 plus on a gold coin in an ntc slab, well, I really don't know what to say.

    z


  • And here is a board member that bought the coin, not the holder!!!
    ..This coin was in an ACG MS65FBL. I agreed with the grade, cracked it out, submitted, and.....Viola......
    ..


    image
  • K6AZK6AZ Posts: 9,295
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  • Dog97Dog97 Posts: 7,874 ✭✭✭
    EEEECK!! K6AZ posts a true monster. image
    Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
  • Looks like someone bought the slab, and not the coin...Ken
  • K6AZK6AZ Posts: 9,295
    There is no way you can buy the coin and not the slab when you buy online. That is my point, for every one coin you buy sight unseen that is accurately graded, nine won't be. If you know how to grade and go to shows or shops, yes you can make out on third tier slabs. But if you buy online, you are likely to get burned, and a lot of the sellers of this junk do not take returns on "certified" coins.
  • Exactly, thats why I bought mine sight seen...Ken
  • Dog97Dog97 Posts: 7,874 ✭✭✭
    Yeah I remember when that girl bought that 95-O Morgan.
    She's not a grumpy old hardcore cynical 30+ years in the Morgans like us that can spot a problem coin a mile away.
    All she was trying to do was make a ½ way decent set of Morgans because she really liked Morgans & she thought a slab was a slab and that meant it was ok & all dealers were honest like she is.
    But in reality it like bend over & grab your ankles newbie & get your anus reamed.
    Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
  • K6AZK6AZ Posts: 9,295
    As I suspected you did. You also must keep in mind that ACG has two standards for grading- one is for people they don't know who submit coins to them, which your coin must have been. The other standard is for their "dealer network" who pay large sums over their stated price so they can hawk them online. If you read John Callandrello's statement on my website, it explains everything.

    This is why I think it is important for you to say that you bought that coin sight seen. When you don't say that, people might think they could buy ACG coins online and get accurately graded coins. Over the last couple of years, I have obtained over sixty ACG slabs that were bought online, and only four of those were accurately graded, and they were all coins with a value of less than $50. I have personally inspected an additional 200 ACG coins, mostly Morgan Dollars in MS grades, and all of those have either been 2-3 points off or had prolbems such as cleaning or PVC.
  • K6AZK6AZ Posts: 9,295
    Yeah but Dog, through some very diplomatic communications with the seller of that coin, we got her money back and returned the coin. Of all the work I have done with collectors over this ACG business, that is my favorite success story of a collector who didn't take a screwing and fought back.
  • BigD5BigD5 Posts: 3,433
    From what I've seen, NTC is the worst of the worst. Them, as well as PCI, and ACG push grades to the max, give leeway for cleaning, and regularly slab au coins as mint state. Buying one of these coins is similar to purchasing from one of the larger dealers that advertise in the Trade Magazines. Not EVERY coin these dealers sell is overgraded or a problem coin. Most are, but not all. So, you can find ok coins in these slabs, but in general, they are terrible at putting accurate grades on the coins.
    As for the presented lot.......it is what it is. Unless someone knows the exact history of the coins from that lot, there is no way to comment specifically on them, except to say that the given grades by the eyes that saw them up close and personal semi-agreed with some of the grades. Nothing more.
    The other thing to keep in mind is that circulated coins can be pushed only so far. There are certain attributes on a lot of series where, say, LIBERTY, for example has to have a certain amount of letters visible to reach a certain grade. Those types of coins can only be pushed so far along the grading scale, to any collector. Mint state, or sliders can be pushed a bit more, hence the more popular notion that the prevalent overgrading is in those types of coins.
    At one time, I purchased a substantial sized lot of ACG graded Walkers. All the coins ended up grading at NGC, most lower, some the same, and one graded higher. Overall, I wouldn't trust an ACG grade for the life of me, without seeing the coin in my hands.
    BigD5
    LSCC#1864

    Ebay Stuff
  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is why I think it is important for you to say that you bought that coin sight seen. When you don't say that, people might think they could buy ACG coins online and get accurately graded coins.

    wow, maybe with a softening like that at the beginning of this thread, it would have taken a different tone. instead we had this----Well, the general jist of your post is that NTC coins are accurately graded when the factual point was only we had these coins in our hands and this is what we saw and what the insert said.

    no offense Eric, i've applauded you publicly and offered assistance for your effort through the PM system, but your quest and personal antagonism towards the Hagars and ACG appears to have soured you some and left you unwilling to be objective on any level. opinions are one matter. blanket statements and pigeon-holing approach obsession.

    good luck on your project to clear your name and reputation. good luck on your project to expose ACG for the wrongs they have done.

    al h.image
  • NumisEdNumisEd Posts: 1,336
    holy smokes! I just realized something: look at keets' signature........it's "al h."

    Is keets (al h.) really Al Hagar???
  • K6AZK6AZ Posts: 9,295


    << <i>no offense Eric, i've applauded you publicly and offered assistance for your effort through the PM system, but your quest and personal antagonism towards the Hagars and ACG appears to have soured you some and left you unwilling to be objective on any level. opinions are one matter. blanket statements and pigeon-holing approach obsession. >>



    The business with the eBay feedback is just a small part of the overall picture of what has occured since the Charlotte hearing. Yes, in any case where I see even the smallest hint of giving those people any credibility whatsoever, I tend to go at it hot and heavy. When this entire situation is resolved, and I am able to discuss what has occured off eBay and out of sight of most people, you will understand why.
  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    oh oh, it looks like i've been busted!!

    al h.image
  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,691 ✭✭✭


    << <i>There is no way you can buy the coin and not the slab when you buy online. >>

    totally untrue. if you get a useful return privilege, that is equivalent to sight-seen.



    << <i> That is my point, for every one coin you buy sight unseen that is accurately graded, nine won't be. If you know how to grade and go to shows or shops, yes you can make out on third tier slabs. But if you buy online, you are likely to get burned, and a lot of the sellers of this junk do not take returns on "certified" coins. >>

    that is NOT a problem w/ "slabs"!!! k6az, don't you get it? that is a problem w/ FOOLS who have been duped by slabing co's (yes, PCGS) into thinking that it is safe to buy coins sight-seen ... if they are slabed.

    it is simply the most basic rule of buying coins - DO NOT BUY COINS SIGHT-UNSEEN - END OF STORY!!!. the brand of plastic does not matter, who the seller is does not matter, the price of the coin does not matter, the shape of today's sun-spots does not matter!!!

    the basic rule never changes:

    DO NOT BUY COINS SIGHT-UNSEEN

    K S
  • K6AZK6AZ Posts: 9,295
    You are totally out of it Karl. I have bought almost all of my coins in the last three years sight unseen. And I have done very well be sticking to reputable slabs, with dealers who have a rock solid return policy, and by knowing how to grade myself. Not everyone can make it large shows, and local coin shops are quickly becoming a thing of the past.
  • Dog97Dog97 Posts: 7,874 ✭✭✭
    <<<Yeah but Dog, through some very diplomatic communications with the seller of that coin, we got her money back and returned the coin.>>>
    K6AZ all I can say is that she was lucky that she had a heavy like you helping her. She still continues to collect & enjoy her Morgans instead of getting shanked and leaving the hobby is disgust & shame like some many newbies do after buying 3rd world slabs on sleazeBay.
    Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
  • K6AZK6AZ Posts: 9,295
    Yes, she was one of the lucky ones. For those who haven't seen it, here is a little story about one of the unlucky ones:

    Statement by Kristen Donnan (PDF)
  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,691 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I have bought almost all of my coins in the last three years sight unseen ... with dealers who have a rock solid return policy >>

    hey k6az, i believe we have a miscommunication - my fault. note that i classify any purchase w/ a useful return policy as sight seen. russ mentioned the same thing as well in another thread.

    to recoup: buying a coin such that you are not committed to it until examining in-hand, i classify as sight-seen.

    but my previous comment stands, do not buy coins sight-unseen, period

    K S
  • NumisEdNumisEd Posts: 1,336
    k6AZ,

    What's the full story on that Norma letter??? Dude, did Hagar screw some old lady out of $300K? If he did, I will personally track that punk down and, well, I will tell you the rest in a pm.

    What was the ANA's response to this letter?? More details on this story please....

    ACG and Hagar sux big time. K6AZ should be praised for his efforts of bringing the evil ACG empire to ruins.

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