Here's an NTC Coin that I will send in to PCGS soon, which looks pretty nice to me!
I expect it to grade at least MS-64 PL, with a shot at MS-64 DMPL or perhaps MS-65 PL. The watery clear reflective fields are a lock for the PCGS PL designation -- they look DMPL to me...
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
<< <i>I read everything, including the title of the thread: or---is NumisTrust really as bad as we give them credit for??
Sorry, but it still looks to me as if the idea here is to give some credence to NTC, which is no better than ACG. That was one of the things I went to Charlotte for, to get a good close look at NTC Morgans, and I can tell you that their grading is a sham. TDN's post is a good explanation for what may have occured here. And for the most part, these are all highly circulated coins. As I said earlier, send them off to PCGS or NGC, or for that matter, ANACS and see what you get. I would be surprised if half of them come back with the same grades as what are on the NTC labels. >>
I would have to agree with the above. That is the INITIAL impressive I got as well. Just my impression though...
My purpose in posting this specific coin experience was to demonstrate that every once-in-a-while you can find a needle in a haystack, if you are willing to take some reasonable measured risk on a 3rd tier grading service slabbed coin (as if you were buying a raw coin).
This is the exception to the rule, but they are out there if you look hard enough.
Of course it's always nice if the e-seller offers a return priviledge, and one is always safer to purchase these higher-risk coins in person...
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
you might be the first person who's responded to this thread in it's entire lifetime who actually has an open mind and gets what was at the heart of it. nothing sinister, the dealer needed to grade the coins for himself to come up with an offer to buy and i thought the list might be informative here. boy, was i wrong!!! what amazes me is that the bias i asked members to "check at the door" came along by the middle of the first page and no kind of discussion ever really transpired about the coins. foolishly, i chose to think i needed to defend some position against wild accusations and insults. had i the whole thing to do over, i'd have not done that.
it all proved to be a good learning experience for me, looking at the group of coins and the whole life of the thread. above everything else, i'd hope collectors understand that they need to actually focus on the coin and not the insert or the grading company. certainly from the standpoint of "chance" a supposition can be formed and a level of trust for a certain company can be made by each of us. but in the end, the coin still needs to be looked at on it's own merits absent the bias which is unavoidable.
it's been dusted off a few times because of members wanting to do searches on NTC and brought TTT either by me or someone else. at other times, i've noticed it on page one, read and responded. my perspective is that it can be useful for someone who can wade through the BS and it's hard to deny that it's a bit funny at times, though reading the whole thing can be a challenge. fortunately, i've already read it!!
why does it bother you?? that's the bigger question that i see. remember, i have no agenda save for open-mindedness.
OK, looks like we need to do a refresher on why NTC and the other third tier slabbers exist.
Junk dealers found it impossible to compete in the coin market once PCGS and NGC established themselves. Turns out buyers got wise, and would only buy "certified" material. Since most of the junk sold by the junk dealers would not make it into PCGS or NGC slabs (or for that matter, straight ANACS holders without net grading) the need for third tier slabs arose for them to push their junk. ACG was the first of these companies, but after they were exposed and Hager earned such a bad reputation, the dealers looked elsewhere, hence the emergence of NTC and PCI gold labels.
These services are primarily designed to service the junk dealers, but to save face, they also offer grading to the general public. It is the coins that are submitted from the general public that are graded pretty much correctly. These amount to a minute percentage of the total amount of these slabs on the market, the vast majority of which were submitted by the favored dealers and more or less assigned grades those dealers wanted. To get on here and advocate buying these slabs sight unseen is doing a tremendous disservice to collectors, since well over 95% of these coins being sold on eBay were submitted by the favored dealers and are grossly overgraded.
I think it's fine and good to remind the educated collector that yes, there ARE some diamonds in the rough and that they, who have the experience to weed out the scammers and grade coins on their own, can find great bargains in that plastic on occasion. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
However, it's also VERY important, when mentioning this, that this requires understanding of coins and the coin market, and of knowing how to grade and spot problem coins. I just fear that some novice collectors could see a thread like this and become a little more "trusting" of these third world holders than they should be. Savvy collectors can find the 5% good stuff and weed out the 95% junk. Less experienced collectors and less competent coin graders can't, and if they let their guard down on these third world slabs at all, they WILL get burned much more often than not.
that's really been the misunderstanding from the beginning. if you look at the first sentences of the original post i clearly state that the dealer needed to look at the coins before he could make his offer to buy, that was the way we ended up with the list in the first place. we both looked at the coins, he assessed the final grade and i acted as his stenographer. i also stated the need to view any coin in any holder on it's merit absent the insert or company on the previous page. heck, bias works both ways, we ignore certain holders and trust others, so i've learned that i need to look at the coin and i try to stress that.
Al. we went thorough this before as you well know. I'm going to leave you with this.
Back in August, four different individuals were staked with $2500 each to buy NTC coins on eBay. The instructions were to buy ten coins each, randomly. The coins were subsequently cracked out and submitted as follows:
Buyer A - Ten coins cracked and sent to ANACS. One coin crossed, six coins downgraded 1-3 points, three returned for PVC. Buyer B- Ten coins cracked and sent to PCGS. One coin crossed, one coin upgraded, three coins downgraded, five coins body bagged. Buyer C- Ten coins cracked and sent to NGC. Four coins downgraded, six coins bodybagged. Buyer D- Ten coins cracked and sent to ICG. Three coins crossed. Two coins upgraded. Three coins downgraded. Two coins bodybagged.
Half Dimes 1839 NTC MS 65 cracked and sent to PCGS MS 63 1853 NTC MS 65 cracked and sent to PCGS MS 63 1871-S NTC MS 63 cracked and sent to PCGS MS 62 1872 NTC MS 63 cracked and sent to PCGS MS 63
I knew they wouldn't cross well, but I had to get them into a respected slab for re-sale. I also bought them from an honest dealer who gave them to me at considerably below the NTC grade. In other words I paid 3 money for the 5's and I paid 60 money for the 3's. So, I was pleasently surprised with the 71-S and 72.
"Don't bother just to be better than your contemporaries or predecessors. Try to be better than yourself." - William Faulkner NoEbayAuctionsForNow
So: well more than a third of these coins have problems so severe, they are essentially ungradable! I couldn't understand how all these dumb services, which no one ever used, stayed in business! Now I see its for sellers who don't want to have ANACS print the problems on the label, or pay NCS to conserve. An entire industry built around Ebay rip-off sellers---interesting.
i had hoped from the start of this thread, as i have repeated ad nauseum, that everyone would take it in the spirit it was offered.
the edit from the "starter" was for the title only, nothing else was changed from the original post. you'll note that we added a short comment for whatever coins we seemed to find problems with. we didn't offer any kind of blanket endorsement and although i haven't read the entire thread---again---i don't feel i did in any subsequent replies. to the contrary, i think i've stayed steady by reminding members that it's important to assess the coin.
my overriding opinion is that with the noteriety that NTC has deservedly heaped upon themselves causes the good coins in their holders to be overlooked with scorn. the bias took it's toll immediately when members saw that initial post and internalized it wrongly. it says what it says, nothing more and nothing less. reread it with an open mind.
I have a search programmed into EBay, that is specifically "NTC, ICG, SEGS, PCI" so that I can search in there for that 5%... and if you look hard enough, you just might find a gem I bought a Bust Half recently on EBay, it was a "Collector-Seller" rather than a Junk-Dealer, so it was a $1 auction start... I found it, it was graded F12 by NTC, I paid strong Fine money for it, and I would grade it a nicec VF20, with awesome grey surfaces, though it did appear to have been cleaned at one time, I think it woulda made it into a PCGS slab, though, it did have one small spot of corrosion on the reverse, but I did see an MS Bust Half in DLRC's Inventory that had a spot of corrosion that was in an NGC slab...
<< <i>my overriding opinion is that with the noteriety that NTC has deservedly heaped upon themselves causes the good coins in their holders to be overlooked with scorn. the bias took it's toll immediately when members saw that initial post and internalized it wrongly. it says what it says, nothing more and nothing less. reread it with an open mind. >>
This is absolutely correct. There are a small percentage that are good coins for the grade. The problem is finding them when the vast majority are offered on eBay with poor pictures or scans. I'll tell you this much, if you start buying them sight unseen you are going to lose your bet. If you do know how to grade, and sort through them sight seen at a big show, you can pick out winners. The examples I posted above prove this.
in light of the NNC thread being borne i thought i'd ressurect this old one. i think it has value, especially when the object is to attempt to provide useful information from an objective standpoint. the morale of my little "experiment" is that no good deed shall go unpunished.
I owned one NTC slab. It was a common date Indian Head Cent with nice toning. It was graded 65BN. I cracked it, if you can call it that. A simple twist on the slab and popped apart. I sold it on the Bay as an MS63BN.
JJ
Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
<< <i>in light of the NNC thread being borne i thought i'd ressurect this old one. i think it has value, especially when the object is to attempt to provide useful information from an objective standpoint. the morale of my little "experiment" is that no good deed shall go unpunished. >>
Ain't that the truth. Since I was the one with the NNC thread ("A Closer Look At Some NNC Graded Coins..."), I might as well give a sort of mini-review of them. I've bought over 30 coins in Numistrust slabs, the majority of them MS and all relatively inexpensive. I was going to post my own thread about them, based on my findings, but never got around to it. All I can do, pretty much, is post a few of them with my own grade opinions. Generally speaking (and this applies to their MS graded coins only), there is what I would call an "overgrade" of about 2 points. My grades are based on (1) My own opinions (2) Side by side comparisons with PCGS, NGC & ANACS graded examples (3) Comparisons with images of PCGS & NGC graded examples posted at Heritage and DLRC.
1971 Ike; NTC MS66 My Grade: MS64
1947-D Jefferson (toned); NTC MS64 My Grade: MS65
1952-S Jefferson; NTC MS67 My Grade: MS65
1945-P WLH; NTC MS66 My Grade: MS64
1963-P Franklin; NTC MS66 My Grade: MS64 NOTE: I have 7 Franklin Halves graded 66 by them. My grade is 64 for six of them, 63 for one.
1945-S Lincoln; NTC MS67RD My Grade: MS66RD
1938-S Lincoln; NTC MS66RD My Grade: MS66RD
1952-S Lincoln; NTC MS67RD My Grade: MS65RD
1939-S Lincoln; NTC MS66RD My Grade: MS65RD
1923 Peace; NTC MS65 My Grade: MS63
1917 Buffalo; NTC XF45 My Grade: EF40 NOTE: Sometime after grading this EF40, I was looking through my 2x2 albums and decided to take another look at it because of the golden color. Though I've left the EF40 grade, in all reality, this is an AU58 (virtually no rub) with some reverse strike issues. Also, notice the flatness at the 2nd leg and raised ground. 1944-D Mercury; NTC MS66FB My Grade: MS64FB (Now in an album, as are some of the others.)
1960-P Franklin; NTC MS65FBL My Grade: MS63 (no FBL)
As far as any comparison between NNC and NTC, I should mention that I don't consider NNC to be a legitimate TPG. I consider NTC to be a legitimate TPG that overgrades (most of the time), and there are or have been a few of those (TPG's) and probably always will be. NTC is often equated/confused with ebay seller owned self slabbers. Personally, I don't put them in that category.
again, from the ash heap!!!! the thread that won't die still has legs, and thanks to the K6AZ banning so long ago.......................oh, never mind.
Why are you resurrecting this ancient thread? The right coins, right holders, etc is not a 100% true statement. The only true statement is "buy the coin, not the holder". You have dogs everywhere, not just NTC, ACG, etc. PCGS, NGC, ANACS, and ICG have all had their fair share of dogs.
<< <i>Why are you resurrecting this ancient thread? The right coins, right holders, etc is not a 100% true statement. The only true statement is "buy the coin, not the holder". You have dogs everywhere, not just NTC, ACG, etc. PCGS, NGC, ANACS, and ICG have all had their fair share of dogs. >>
I mentioned "accurately graded coins getting into the right holder if they're worth it ". I never brought up dogs, you did. Why ?
This is kinda like a zombie thread.... keeps moving and bumbling and stumbling forward... muuuahhhhaahhhhahhha... I have 1 coin in a NTC slab... i will admit it- it's a nice morgan with nice toning, and i actually purchased it from another forum member on the bst. Otherwise, i can't remember ever seeing a coin in an NTC holder that i actually desired...
My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
Not that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard, every coin in my collection has been purchased as you say sight unseen.....I assume you mean via online photograph which imho isn't sight unseen since you are viewing a photo, it's more correctly not in hand for visual inspection.
i think most members would agree that buying from an online photograph is considered sight-unseen, but i could be wrong. perhaps you should conduct a Poll.
So what do you you call it when a dealer has a listing without photos if not sight unseen? And when Laura of Legend says she doesn't buy sight unseen unless it is CAC stickered what does that mean?
OK, i'll play, what do you call either?? just to clarify, unless i'm looking at the coin in my own hand i call it sight unseen.
this isn't really a point worth arguing about. to be honest, i am surprised that you feel the way you do and would be equally surprised by any members who also consider a picture to be "sight seen" when considering a coin. i presume that you will agree(but maybe not) that there are a multitude of problems which can be impossible to detect from a picture, and that often the picture(s) intentionally don't show those problems or are unable to show them satisfactorily. thus, the in-hand/sight-seen requirement.
in simplest terms, seeing a picture of a coin isn't really "seeing" the coin. you should really pose this as a thread or start a Poll if you are confused at all about the issue. i consider something of that nature to be the best use of this forum, not some of the fodder which passes as edification here, stuff like all the eBay chatter, etc.
If the coin dealer has a fair return policy, any coin purchased from him is a sight seen purchase for all practical purpurses since the deal isn't completed until the buyer examines the coin and decides to keep it.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
If the coin dealer has a fair return policy, any coin purchased from him is a sight seen purchase for all practical purpurses since the deal isn't completed until the buyer examines the coin and decides to keep it.
this is a good point which i have resisted making since it changes the eqation and essentially becomes a "w/contingency" purchase which is typical. it also proves the point i have making-----buying from a picture isn't sight-seen until you actually have the coin in-hand to SEE.
absent any other criteria i would ask the question, with no "IF's AND's or BUT's" attached to the question------is buying a coin based solely on a picture a sight-seen purchase??
<< <i>absent any other criteria i would ask the question, with no "IF's AND's or BUT's" attached to the question------is buying a coin based solely on a picture a sight-seen purchase?? >>
I would say that it depends on the quality of the pics---size, resolution, lighting, etc. I've seen large, high quality pics that show detail that wouldn't normally be visible with an in hand examination unless a quality loupe was used under a good light source.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
OK, i give up. i can't decide whether i'm discussing something with my ex-wife or a politician. thanks for engaging in the discussion, Perry. it might be more productive if you'd quit adding elements, but i don't readily expect that to happen. clarity isn'y your strong suit.
Comments
it's close to that Egyptian town on the Nile, bum-something-or-other!!
al h.
I expect it to grade at least MS-64 PL, with a shot at MS-64 DMPL or perhaps MS-65 PL. The watery clear reflective fields are a lock for the PCGS PL designation -- they look DMPL to me...
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
<< <i>I read everything, including the title of the thread: or---is NumisTrust really as bad as we give them credit for??
Sorry, but it still looks to me as if the idea here is to give some credence to NTC, which is no better than ACG. That was one of the things I went to Charlotte for, to get a good close look at NTC Morgans, and I can tell you that their grading is a sham. TDN's post is a good explanation for what may have occured here. And for the most part, these are all highly circulated coins. As I said earlier, send them off to PCGS or NGC, or for that matter, ANACS and see what you get. I would be surprised if half of them come back with the same grades as what are on the NTC labels. >>
I would have to agree with the above. That is the INITIAL impressive I got as well. Just my impression though...
This is the exception to the rule, but they are out there if you look hard enough.
Of course it's always nice if the e-seller offers a return priviledge, and one is always safer to purchase these higher-risk coins in person...
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
you might be the first person who's responded to this thread in it's entire lifetime who actually has an open mind and gets what was at the heart of it. nothing sinister, the dealer needed to grade the coins for himself to come up with an offer to buy and i thought the list might be informative here. boy, was i wrong!!! what amazes me is that the bias i asked members to "check at the door" came along by the middle of the first page and no kind of discussion ever really transpired about the coins. foolishly, i chose to think i needed to defend some position against wild accusations and insults. had i the whole thing to do over, i'd have not done that.
it all proved to be a good learning experience for me, looking at the group of coins and the whole life of the thread. above everything else, i'd hope collectors understand that they need to actually focus on the coin and not the insert or the grading company. certainly from the standpoint of "chance" a supposition can be formed and a level of trust for a certain company can be made by each of us. but in the end, the coin still needs to be looked at on it's own merits absent the bias which is unavoidable.
BTW, my pal chose not to buy the coins.
al h.
it's been dusted off a few times because of members wanting to do searches on NTC and brought TTT either by me or someone else. at other times, i've noticed it on page one, read and responded. my perspective is that it can be useful for someone who can wade through the BS and it's hard to deny that it's a bit funny at times, though reading the whole thing can be a challenge. fortunately, i've already read it!!
why does it bother you?? that's the bigger question that i see. remember, i have no agenda save for open-mindedness.
al h.
Junk dealers found it impossible to compete in the coin market once PCGS and NGC established themselves. Turns out buyers got wise, and would only buy "certified" material. Since most of the junk sold by the junk dealers would not make it into PCGS or NGC slabs (or for that matter, straight ANACS holders without net grading) the need for third tier slabs arose for them to push their junk. ACG was the first of these companies, but after they were exposed and Hager earned such a bad reputation, the dealers looked elsewhere, hence the emergence of NTC and PCI gold labels.
These services are primarily designed to service the junk dealers, but to save face, they also offer grading to the general public. It is the coins that are submitted from the general public that are graded pretty much correctly. These amount to a minute percentage of the total amount of these slabs on the market, the vast majority of which were submitted by the favored dealers and more or less assigned grades those dealers wanted. To get on here and advocate buying these slabs sight unseen is doing a tremendous disservice to collectors, since well over 95% of these coins being sold on eBay were submitted by the favored dealers and are grossly overgraded.
please point me to the instance(s) where i've done that, advocated buying NTC holdered coins sight unseen??
al h.
However, it's also VERY important, when mentioning this, that this requires understanding of coins and the coin market, and of knowing how to grade and spot problem coins. I just fear that some novice collectors could see a thread like this and become a little more "trusting" of these third world holders than they should be. Savvy collectors can find the 5% good stuff and weed out the 95% junk. Less experienced collectors and less competent coin graders can't, and if they let their guard down on these third world slabs at all, they WILL get burned much more often than not.
that's really been the misunderstanding from the beginning. if you look at the first sentences of the original post i clearly state that the dealer needed to look at the coins before he could make his offer to buy, that was the way we ended up with the list in the first place. we both looked at the coins, he assessed the final grade and i acted as his stenographer. i also stated the need to view any coin in any holder on it's merit absent the insert or company on the previous page. heck, bias works both ways, we ignore certain holders and trust others, so i've learned that i need to look at the coin and i try to stress that.
al h.
Back in August, four different individuals were staked with $2500 each to buy NTC coins on eBay. The instructions were to buy ten coins each, randomly. The coins were subsequently cracked out and submitted as follows:
Buyer A - Ten coins cracked and sent to ANACS. One coin crossed, six coins downgraded 1-3 points, three returned for PVC.
Buyer B- Ten coins cracked and sent to PCGS. One coin crossed, one coin upgraded, three coins downgraded, five coins body bagged.
Buyer C- Ten coins cracked and sent to NGC. Four coins downgraded, six coins bodybagged.
Buyer D- Ten coins cracked and sent to ICG. Three coins crossed. Two coins upgraded. Three coins downgraded. Two coins bodybagged.
Edited for spelling, again.
Half Dimes
1839 NTC MS 65 cracked and sent to PCGS MS 63
1853 NTC MS 65 cracked and sent to PCGS MS 63
1871-S NTC MS 63 cracked and sent to PCGS MS 62
1872 NTC MS 63 cracked and sent to PCGS MS 63
I knew they wouldn't cross well, but I had to get them into a respected slab for re-sale. I also bought them from an honest dealer who gave them to me at considerably below the NTC grade. In other words I paid 3 money for the 5's and I paid 60 money for the 3's. So, I was pleasently surprised with the 71-S and 72.
NoEbayAuctionsForNow
the edit from the "starter" was for the title only, nothing else was changed from the original post. you'll note that we added a short comment for whatever coins we seemed to find problems with. we didn't offer any kind of blanket endorsement and although i haven't read the entire thread---again---i don't feel i did in any subsequent replies. to the contrary, i think i've stayed steady by reminding members that it's important to assess the coin.
my overriding opinion is that with the noteriety that NTC has deservedly heaped upon themselves causes the good coins in their holders to be overlooked with scorn. the bias took it's toll immediately when members saw that initial post and internalized it wrongly. it says what it says, nothing more and nothing less. reread it with an open mind.
al h.
42/92
<< <i>my overriding opinion is that with the noteriety that NTC has deservedly heaped upon themselves causes the good coins in their holders to be overlooked with scorn. the bias took it's toll immediately when members saw that initial post and internalized it wrongly. it says what it says, nothing more and nothing less. reread it with an open mind. >>
This is absolutely correct. There are a small percentage that are good coins for the grade. The problem is finding them when the vast majority are offered on eBay with poor pictures or scans. I'll tell you this much, if you start buying them sight unseen you are going to lose your bet. If you do know how to grade, and sort through them sight seen at a big show, you can pick out winners. The examples I posted above prove this.
JJ
<< <i>in light of the NNC thread being borne i thought i'd ressurect this old one. i think it has value, especially when the object is to attempt to provide useful information from an objective standpoint. the morale of my little "experiment" is that no good deed shall go unpunished. >>
Ain't that the truth. Since I was the one with the NNC thread ("A Closer Look At Some NNC Graded Coins..."), I might as well give a sort of mini-review of them. I've bought over 30 coins in Numistrust slabs, the majority of them MS and all relatively inexpensive. I was going to post my own thread about them, based on my findings, but never got around to it. All I can do, pretty much, is post a few of them with my own grade opinions. Generally speaking (and this applies to their MS graded coins only), there is what I would call an "overgrade" of about 2 points. My grades are based on (1) My own opinions (2) Side by side comparisons with PCGS, NGC & ANACS graded examples (3) Comparisons with images of PCGS & NGC graded examples posted at Heritage and DLRC.
1971 Ike; NTC MS66 My Grade: MS64
1947-D Jefferson (toned); NTC MS64 My Grade: MS65
1952-S Jefferson; NTC MS67 My Grade: MS65
1945-P WLH; NTC MS66 My Grade: MS64
1963-P Franklin; NTC MS66 My Grade: MS64 NOTE: I have 7 Franklin Halves graded 66 by them. My grade is 64 for six of them, 63 for one.
1945-S Lincoln; NTC MS67RD My Grade: MS66RD
1938-S Lincoln; NTC MS66RD My Grade: MS66RD
1952-S Lincoln; NTC MS67RD My Grade: MS65RD
1939-S Lincoln; NTC MS66RD My Grade: MS65RD
1923 Peace; NTC MS65 My Grade: MS63
1917 Buffalo; NTC XF45 My Grade: EF40 NOTE: Sometime after grading this EF40, I was looking through my 2x2 albums and decided to take another look at it because of the golden color. Though I've left the EF40 grade, in all reality, this is an AU58 (virtually no rub) with some reverse strike issues. Also, notice the flatness at the 2nd leg and raised ground.
1944-D Mercury; NTC MS66FB My Grade: MS64FB (Now in an album, as are some of the others.)
1960-P Franklin; NTC MS65FBL My Grade: MS63 (no FBL)
As far as any comparison between NNC and NTC, I should mention that I don't consider NNC to be a legitimate TPG. I consider NTC to be a legitimate TPG that overgrades (most of the time), and there are or have been a few of those (TPG's) and probably always will be. NTC is often equated/confused with ebay seller owned self slabbers. Personally, I don't put them in that category.
1948-S Jefferson; NTC MS65 My Grade: MS65
1946-D Jefferson; NTC MS65 My Grade: MS65
1963-P Franklin; NTC MS65 My Grade: MS64
1958-P Franklin; NTC MS66 My Grade: MS64
1948-D Franklin; NTC MS66FBL My Grade: MS63 (no FBL)
1963-P Roosevelt; NTC MS66 My Grade: MS66
1962-D Roosevelt; NTC MS67 My Grade: MS65
The NTC slab "generations"...
1960-D Roosevelt; NTC MS66 My Grade: MS63
1962-P Roosevelt; NTC MS66 My Grade: MS65
1962-D Roosevelt; NTC MS67 My Grade: MS65
WS
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Why are you resurrecting this ancient thread? The right coins, right holders, etc is not a 100% true statement. The only true statement is "buy the coin, not the holder". You have dogs everywhere, not just NTC, ACG, etc. PCGS, NGC, ANACS, and ICG have all had their fair share of dogs. >>
I mentioned "accurately graded coins getting into the right holder if they're worth it ".
I never brought up dogs, you did. Why ?
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
The name is LEE!
I have 1 coin in a NTC slab... i will admit it- it's a nice morgan with nice toning, and i actually purchased it from another forum member on the bst. Otherwise, i can't remember ever seeing a coin in an NTC holder that i actually desired...
therein lies the problem, buying NTC holdered coins sight unseen.
i think most members would agree that buying from an online photograph is considered sight-unseen, but i could be wrong. perhaps you should conduct a Poll.
<< <i>i think most members would agree that buying from an online photograph is considered sight-unseen... >>
I would not agree. It's not as good as in-hand, but it's certainly much better than buying blind i.e. sight unseen.
OK, i'll play, what do you call either?? just to clarify, unless i'm looking at the coin in my own hand i call it sight unseen.
in simplest terms, seeing a picture of a coin isn't really "seeing" the coin. you should really pose this as a thread or start a Poll if you are confused at all about the issue. i consider something of that nature to be the best use of this forum, not some of the fodder which passes as edification here, stuff like all the eBay chatter, etc.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
this is a good point which i have resisted making since it changes the eqation and essentially becomes a "w/contingency" purchase which is typical. it also proves the point i have making-----buying from a picture isn't sight-seen until you actually have the coin in-hand to SEE.
absent any other criteria i would ask the question, with no "IF's AND's or BUT's" attached to the question------is buying a coin based solely on a picture a sight-seen purchase??
<< <i>absent any other criteria i would ask the question, with no "IF's AND's or BUT's" attached to the question------is buying a coin based solely on a picture a sight-seen purchase?? >>
I would say that it depends on the quality of the pics---size, resolution, lighting, etc. I've seen large, high quality pics that show detail that wouldn't normally be visible with an in hand examination unless a quality loupe was used under a good light source.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
have a nice day.