Nice sob story. But what is it that ACG did that was illegal?
Nothing, you say?
That's right!
Hager 'invented' his own grading standard using a 1 to 70 scale. You know, the one based on luster and strike. Kind of the same thing PCGS did with 11 grades of uncirculated. People that misinterpet ACG's grades because they didn't perform due diligence are their own worst enemy. Hager takes advantage of that lack of coin collecting accumen. The real deceivers are those that represent ACG grades as being comparable to PCGS or NGC. That is where the real problem lies.
OK Karl, using your terms of sight seen/sight unseen then we agree.
The problem is, most new collectors don't understand these differences, and end up getting burned. These third tier slabs are virtually custom made for the sleazy sellers such as this one:
"I sell certified coins that are professionally graded. These grades are the opinion of the grading services. I will not argue grades with a customer, and this is not a sale on approval. If a coin is damaged during shipment or if I misrepresented the coin in my description, I will gladly give a complete refund, but all sales are considered final. Please feel free to contact me direct with any questions, and please ask any questions before you bid. Check my feedback, and bid with confidence. Thank you for looking, and good luck bidding."
<< <i>The real deceivers are those that represent ACG grades as being comparable to PCGS or NGC. That is where the real problem lies. >>
Well then stooge, explain this direct quote from one of Hager's own auctions:
YOU CAN FIND IT AT THIS PRICE ONLY WITH US... GOOD LUCK!!! AND PLEASE VISIT OUR OTHER AUCTIONS... ............Best prices on NGC and ACG coins. **********ACG OFFERS A COMPARABLE GRADE TO PCGS & NGC AT A BETTER PRICE****ACCUGRADE, INC has never had a major complaint filed against them in 19 years.
Ed, before AH sold on eBay, he employed telemarketers to sell coins in his slabs. Norma Donnan was contacted by a telemarketer and roped in to spending $356,000 in coins that have a true value of under $30,000.
Let's see ... I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure fraud is still illegal, and common sense tells me that manipulating the grades on coins based on how much you're paid (see the ANA hearing transcript) could be considered fraud in some places. So could telling your customers your grades are comparable to NGC and PCGS until you're forced to admit they're not (ANA hearing again). Also, it seems to me that if PCGS compiles a price list based on sales of PCGS-graded coins, then that list is PCGS' intellectual property -- meaning it has a right to prevent unauthorized use of that list in other people's ads, even after it's published in a public forum such as a website.
Holy smokes! I can't believe that anyone could be so evil as Hagar. Did he really do that to an old lady? Did PCGS or NGC slab any of the coins, or did they just give a written opinion regarding the grades?
If I were a judge, I would make Hagar buy back the coins from the old lady for 50% of what she paid. Of course she is entitled to 100% of what she paid, but let's be reasonable. That would at least give her some money to live out her final years with some comfort. If that greasy, slimeball, piece of $hit Hagar doesn't have the money then he should lose his house, car and everything else.
ATTENTION: Anyone who supports Hagar or ACG is just as bad as them. May you all rot in he11
If that happened to one of my relatives you had better believe that I would be taking a trip down to Florida with my 2 best friends (Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson).
The relationship between AH and the telemarketers is not totally clear, but I do know he sold most of his ACG coins through telemarketers before 2000. In the Charlotte hearing, DH tried to disassociate ACG from the telemarketers. In any case, AH at least shares equal responsibility for this since he is the one who severely overgraded and put them in ACG holders.
I wouldn't advocate taking the law into your own hands. Sometimes it takes a while, but I am sure before too much longer you will see AH facing the music for his misdeeds.
Would it be illegal if I mailed ACG a dog turd and asked them to slab it? I mean I would fill out the proper paper work and everything. I would love to see the look on Hagar's face when he opened my package.
I think MadMarty already did that. . .As for Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson, I believe Mr. Colt and a 40 rounder would more fit the case. Forget one shot, one kill. Use all 40 rounds. First one takes off a big toe, etc........ .....Ken
<< <i>That's a typo on the 1886-O, right? You mean she paid $160 for a $60 Morgan. The report says she paid $160,000 for a $60 Morgan. >>
That's greysheet bid value if the coin were actually an MS65. I was pretty shocked at that one myself, so I looked it up. That coin has a HUGE price increase for only one point. In MS64 it has a bid of $5500.
I can't believe the number of people who will stand up for ACG and the others of this type saying things like "They don't do anything illegal" or some mombo jumbo like that.
People who claim they saw some correctly graded ACG coins should realize that they may occasionally decide to grade a coin lower to help make them look more legit. It certainly wouldn't surprise me if they have a policy of overgrading most coins 2-8 points, but occasionally trying to get one right.
Also any dealer who sells a fair amount of this stuff knows MOST of it is overgraded and knows they are selling overgraded stuff to their customers without telling their customers that. How then are they legitimate dealers?
I want to thank K6AZ again for sticking up for the honest people.
JJacks
Always buying music cards of artists I like! PSA or raw! Esp want PSA 10s 1991 Musicards Marx, Elton, Bryan Adams, etc. And 92/93 Country Gold AJ, Clint Black, Tim McGraw PSA 10s
I'm probably wrong, but I think the "A"and the "3" next to the MS65 on the insert means it is a "commercial unc" and the coin has been cleaned (referring to the back of the slab on the legend- if this is one of those longer ACG slabs with the photo.
<<<I know she didn't pay $160k for it, I think it was more along the lines of a "bargain" at $25k. You figure it out, it's an AU55 coin.>>>
DAMN!!! And to think my dumbazz has been in construction for 25 years making a hard but honest living. Even @ $25k that's simply amazing. And we flip out when somebody bids $600 for a Fake Proof CC Morgan with a COA from the National Collectors Mint. Simply amazing that somebody could turn such an enjoyable hobby into such high level fraud. Is this sposed to be hush hush or something? I mean I never saw these documents before and I do check your site from time to time K6AZ. How come us average joes never hear about it?
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
Dog, to my knowledge, there is nothing hush, hush about this stuff.
As a witness in the hearing, I saw the documents/grading reports which compared the ACG, PCGS and NGC grades, etc. I also viewed a few of the coins (I don't recall which) and it was extremely disturbing, though not at all surprising.
I don't see how dealers selling modern bullion coins in PCGS 70 holders for $9K have the right to say ANYTHING bad about ACG. It's not the grade, it's how much $$$ you overpay that matters. Especially since all the "reputable" grading services refuse to abide by a common standard. The ANA COULD do something about it, but they WON'T. Probably because the grading shenanigans AH is accused of aren't isolated to ACG, PCI or even NTC. You can find ALL the grading services do it, one way or another. Whether it's AT coins selling for 10X sheet, bullion coins in 70 holders, or an overgraded ACG Morgan matters little. Somebody still got ripped off You want to clean up the hobby? Would be more efficient to start at the top and work your way down to ACG
Actually Braddick you're not entirely correct but pretty darn close. The C= dull or cleaned. Man that really leaves a lot of room for subjectability doesn't it? something like "Well it might be scrubbed with a brillo pad or it just might not be a lusterous blazer. We really don't want to say anything other than it's not real shiny":
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
Crito, you are another stooge trying to play innocent here. Would you like me to start posting some of your NTC auctions over the last 18 months? You are no different than the stooge, except for some strange reason you still proudly display your eBay ID.
crito there's 1 thing wrong with what you're saying. See the little line on my insert that says ACG accepts no liability for the grade?
@ least PCGS & NGC back their grades. It is about the GRADE since the grade is used to cross reference a price guide to determine how much to scam the buyer for and ACG likes to quote PCGS prices. It is about the grade.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
I don't need to be a lawyer to know this: If you think that poor old lady's story is no big deal, you might want to check with one of the sweepstakes companies like Publisher's Clearinghouse and ask how many millions of dollars they had to pay after being sued by just about every state in the union because of sob stories like that one. I also have friends who are TV producers who would give their right arm for tips on heartrending stories about old ladies being cheated by sleazy merchants.
Maybe I'll see you on TV sometime soon. Have a good nite.
PCI is not as bad by any means. At least not by what I have seen. Now, I am not saying PCI is cream of the crop, but they are easily one of the top 4 or 5, and my personal belief is they deserve a little bit (notice I said a little bit) more credit than they get. How can you compare PCI to NTC or ACG? Show us some slab pics to compare all three on a same grade coin.
I am replying to an earlier post on the first page to someone who slammed all three.
I looked at the NTC thread. The bunch really DID light up on you. I have always found that there are some things which people can't rationally discuss and therefore should be avoided -- like religion and politics. I would add grading to that list, especially by services who dont' currently wear the blue ribbon ratings of PCGS, NGC and ANACS. I've been at this collecting since the 50's and I have a whole boatload of fancy, high graded, impossibly expensive, slabs fgraded by the big boys-- some I agree with and some I don't. I['ve played the crack-out game and both won and lost, although I do best with raw coins on first submissions. And, being a lawyer and having that burning curiosity to read more than the average man (like I'm the only dude left who still reads computer and software instruction books) - you know I've read all the grading books and I've spent hours at shows and auction viewings comparing the grading of the big boys. Go figure. It's 49% science, 10% art and the rest b.s.
But, I still get the greatest kick out of buying raw coins and filling my Dansco albums. I'm on Large cents now, where grading, unless you are talking huge dollars, don't matter so much. I buy what I like.
I think you definitely struck a raw nerve for some reason, but, it's a good group here and you seem like a good guy.
<< <i>when you buy on eBay you are buying sight unseen, relying on the certification company's authentication and grading. Well, ACG, PCI and NTC give absolutely no guarantee of the grade or authenticity of any coin in their holders. The bottom line is, if you know how to grade and can view the coins first, that is one thing. But you are playing long shot odds buying these coins online, and usually when it comes to eBay, there are "no return of certified coins". >>
i remember reading the first couple pages of this thread a long time ago. k6az's statement as i just quoted always bugged me, becuase i have never seen any claim by acg or pci or ntc, that collectors <i>should</i> bid on their slabs sight-unseen.
pcgs's own website, otoh, does imply (strongly) that you can buy their slabs sight-unseen.
the bottom line is you should never buy coins sight unseen, period. & i don't care if you do live in podunk montana, or at the bottom of the ocean, never buy coins sight-unseen!
i don't know at what point in the thread that pasted comment came from or the context. we had the coins in hand, which is why i found it strange that some took such umbrage to the thread. i beleive it may have been the title which some tended to read as meaning i thought NTC was much more legitimate than they are generally given credit for. i tried at first to explain that there was no bias involved. the dealer who had the coins and was kind enough to give me his analysis really knows how to grade and is detached from any kind of slab bias. i got the message after the first page and gave up on trying to convince anyone of my sincerity with the "experiment" and let it slide into oblivion.
the bottom line is you should never buy coins sight unseen, period. & i don't care if you do live in podunk montana, or at the bottom of the ocean, never buy coins sight-unseen!
K S >>
Where is podunk Montana? I don't recall ever being there. Sounds like a fun place.
(As for NTC grading, from my limited first hand knowledge of seeing the coins in their holders, they are all over the place)
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
Comments
Nothing, you say?
That's right!
Hager 'invented' his own grading standard using a 1 to 70 scale. You know, the one based on luster and strike. Kind of the same thing PCGS did with 11 grades of uncirculated. People that misinterpet ACG's grades because they didn't perform due diligence are their own worst enemy. Hager takes advantage of that lack of coin collecting accumen. The real deceivers are those that represent ACG grades as being comparable to PCGS or NGC. That is where the real problem lies.
The problem is, most new collectors don't understand these differences, and end up getting burned. These third tier slabs are virtually custom made for the sleazy sellers such as this one:
"I sell certified coins that are professionally graded. These grades are the opinion of the grading services. I will not argue grades with a customer, and this is not a sale on approval. If a coin is damaged during shipment or if I misrepresented the coin in my description, I will gladly give a complete refund, but all sales are considered final. Please feel free to contact me direct with any questions, and please ask any questions before you bid. Check my feedback, and bid with confidence. Thank you for looking, and good luck bidding."
Auction
<< <i>The real deceivers are those that represent ACG grades as being comparable to PCGS or NGC. That is where the real problem lies. >>
Well then stooge, explain this direct quote from one of Hager's own auctions:
YOU CAN FIND IT AT THIS PRICE ONLY WITH US... GOOD LUCK!!! AND PLEASE VISIT OUR OTHER AUCTIONS... ............Best prices on NGC and ACG coins. **********ACG OFFERS A COMPARABLE GRADE TO PCGS & NGC AT A BETTER PRICE****ACCUGRADE, INC has never had a major complaint filed against them in 19 years.
Auction
<< <i>These third tier slabs are virtually custom made for the sleazy sellers such as this one: >>
That seller has an excellent selection of all the garbage slabbers: PCI, NTC and ACG.
Russ, NCNE
GO GET 'EM!
K S
I don't know how anybody could possibly defend ACG after seeing that report.
Russ, NCNE
Let's see ... I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure fraud is still illegal, and common sense tells me that manipulating the grades on coins based on how much you're paid (see the ANA hearing transcript) could be considered fraud in some places. So could telling your customers your grades are comparable to NGC and PCGS until you're forced to admit they're not (ANA hearing again). Also, it seems to me that if PCGS compiles a price list based on sales of PCGS-graded coins, then that list is PCGS' intellectual property -- meaning it has a right to prevent unauthorized use of that list in other people's ads, even after it's published in a public forum such as a website.
Does that help, stooge?
<< <i>
Does that help, stooge? >>
He's one of al's boys.He's to busy givin it to get it.
If I were a judge, I would make Hagar buy back the coins from the old lady for 50% of what she paid. Of course she is entitled to 100% of what she paid, but let's be reasonable. That would at least give her some money to live out her final years with some comfort. If that greasy, slimeball, piece of $hit Hagar doesn't have the money then he should lose his house, car and everything else.
ATTENTION:
Anyone who supports Hagar or ACG is just as bad as them. May you all rot in he11
If that happened to one of my relatives you had better believe that I would be taking a trip down to Florida with my 2 best friends (Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson).
I wouldn't advocate taking the law into your own hands. Sometimes it takes a while, but I am sure before too much longer you will see AH facing the music for his misdeeds.
.
.As for Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson, I believe Mr. Colt and a 40 rounder would more fit the case. Forget one shot, one kill. Use all 40 rounds. First one takes off a big toe, etc......
.....Ken
The report says she paid $160,000 for a $60 Morgan.
<< <i>That's a typo on the 1886-O, right? You mean she paid $160 for a $60 Morgan.
The report says she paid $160,000 for a $60 Morgan. >>
That's greysheet bid value if the coin were actually an MS65. I was pretty shocked at that one myself, so I looked it up. That coin has a HUGE price increase for only one point. In MS64 it has a bid of $5500.
Russ, NCNE
I can't believe the number of people who will stand up for ACG and the others of this type saying things like "They don't do anything illegal" or some mombo jumbo like that.
People who claim they saw some correctly graded ACG coins should realize that they may occasionally decide to grade a coin lower to help make them look more legit. It certainly wouldn't surprise me if they have a policy of overgrading most coins 2-8 points, but occasionally trying to get one right.
Also any dealer who sells a fair amount of this stuff knows MOST of it is overgraded and knows they are selling overgraded stuff to their customers without telling their customers that. How then are they legitimate dealers?
I want to thank K6AZ again for sticking up for the honest people.
JJacks
peacockcoins
DAMN!!! And to think my dumbazz has been in construction for 25 years making a hard but honest living.
Even @ $25k that's simply amazing. And we flip out when somebody bids $600 for a Fake Proof CC Morgan with a COA from the National Collectors Mint.
Simply amazing that somebody could turn such an enjoyable hobby into such high level fraud.
Is this sposed to be hush hush or something? I mean I never saw these documents before and I do check your site from time to time K6AZ. How come us average joes never hear about it?
As a witness in the hearing, I saw the documents/grading reports which compared the ACG, PCGS and NGC grades, etc. I also viewed a few of the coins (I don't recall which) and it was extremely disturbing, though not at all surprising.
<< <i>The C= dull or cleaned. >>
Dog,
Actually it depends on the era. On some, the 3 means just plain cleaned.
Russ, NCNE
@ least PCGS & NGC back their grades. It is about the GRADE since the grade is used to cross reference a price guide to determine how much to scam the buyer for and ACG likes to quote PCGS prices. It is about the grade.
<< <i>Let's see ... I'm not a lawyer, >>
You're right, newsman, you're not a lawyer.
peacockcoins
I don't need to be a lawyer to know this: If you think that poor old lady's story is no big deal, you might want to check with one of the sweepstakes companies like Publisher's Clearinghouse and ask how many millions of dollars they had to pay after being sued by just about every state in the union because of sob stories like that one. I also have friends who are TV producers who would give their right arm for tips on heartrending stories about old ladies being cheated by sleazy merchants.
Maybe I'll see you on TV sometime soon. Have a good nite.
<< <i>Maybe I'll see you on TV sometime soon. Have a good nite. >>
BTW, I slept like a baby last night. Thanks!
.
.
.
..
<< <i>BTW, I slept like a baby last night. Thanks! . . . .. >>
Waking up every two hours crying?
Tom
CoinPeople.com || CoinWiki.com || NumisLinks.com
Thank you for the information.
This is a tough crowd.
al h.
I am replying to an earlier post on the first page to someone who slammed all three.
I looked at the NTC thread. The bunch really DID light up on you. I have always found that there are some things which people can't rationally discuss and therefore should be avoided -- like religion and politics. I would add grading to that list, especially by services who dont' currently wear the blue ribbon ratings of PCGS, NGC and ANACS. I've been at this collecting since the 50's and I have a whole boatload of fancy, high graded, impossibly expensive, slabs fgraded by the big boys-- some I agree with and some I don't. I['ve played the crack-out game and both won and lost, although I do best with raw coins on first submissions. And, being a lawyer and having that burning curiosity to read more than the average man (like I'm the only dude left who still reads computer and software instruction books) - you know I've read all the grading books and I've spent hours at shows and auction viewings comparing the grading of the big boys. Go figure. It's 49% science, 10% art and the rest b.s.
But, I still get the greatest kick out of buying raw coins and filling my Dansco albums. I'm on Large cents now, where grading, unless you are talking huge dollars, don't matter so much. I buy what I like.
I think you definitely struck a raw nerve for some reason, but, it's a good group here and you seem like a good guy.
David
<< <i>How can you compare PCI to NTC or ACG? Show us some slab pics to compare all three on a same grade coin. >>
Here's one data point for you, presented without comment:
PCI 69 = ICG 66 = PCGS 66 = ANACS 67 = NGC 68
Same coin, run through five services. (The NGC slabbing included an NCS wash-down.)
<< <i>when you buy on eBay you are buying sight unseen, relying on the certification company's authentication and grading. Well, ACG, PCI and NTC give absolutely no guarantee of the grade or authenticity of any coin in their holders. The bottom line is, if you know how to grade and can view the coins first, that is one thing. But you are playing long shot odds buying these coins online, and usually when it comes to eBay, there are "no return of certified coins". >>
i remember reading the first couple pages of this thread a long time ago. k6az's statement as i just quoted always bugged me, becuase i have never seen any claim by acg or pci or ntc, that collectors <i>should</i> bid on their slabs sight-unseen.
pcgs's own website, otoh, does imply (strongly) that you can buy their slabs sight-unseen.
the bottom line is you should never buy coins sight unseen, period. & i don't care if you do live in podunk montana, or at the bottom of the ocean, never buy coins sight-unseen!
K S
i don't know at what point in the thread that pasted comment came from or the context. we had the coins in hand, which is why i found it strange that some took such umbrage to the thread. i beleive it may have been the title which some tended to read as meaning i thought NTC was much more legitimate than they are generally given credit for. i tried at first to explain that there was no bias involved. the dealer who had the coins and was kind enough to give me his analysis really knows how to grade and is detached from any kind of slab bias. i got the message after the first page and gave up on trying to convince anyone of my sincerity with the "experiment" and let it slide into oblivion.
al h.
<< <i>
the bottom line is you should never buy coins sight unseen, period. & i don't care if you do live in podunk montana, or at the bottom of the ocean, never buy coins sight-unseen!
K S >>
Where is podunk Montana? I don't recall ever being there. Sounds like a fun place.
(As for NTC grading, from my limited first hand knowledge of seeing the coins in their holders, they are all over the place)