Do You Agree With D. Halls Comment That Most Dealers Can't Grade Coins?
dragon
Posts: 4,548 ✭✭
A few poeple took offense to that comment, but I think for the most part that it's 100% correct. I wonder how many so-called respected dealers would even be able to conduct business these days with so many knowledgeable collectors out there if they couldn't use slabbed coins as a crutch. I would classify many dealers as nothing more than slab brokers.
I know a lot of it is just your typical sales pitch, but I've looked at coins for sale from LARGE NATIONAL DEALERS at big shows and they tell me how "PQ" this coin is, and that they resubmitted it 5 times for an upgrade and so on, and in reality the coin is really nothing special at all for the grade. I once looked at an expensive Morgan dollar from a VERY well respected national dealer that was in a PCGS MS64 holder. He swore to me the coin was grossly undergraded, PCGS was nuts, and it should've easily been an MS66 all day long, and it wasn't for sale because he was going to walk it through again at the show to PCGS. In reality, the coin was probably a nice 65 but had faint horizontal slide marks all over Libertys cheek that were only visible when tilting the coin, and was correctly graded an MS64. This is just one example of MANY I've seen, and I think D. Hall was correct in his comments about many dealers grading skills.
There is however a minority of dealers that are in fact very, very sharp, but I also think there's a LOT of dealers out there that couldn't consistently and correctly grade coins to save their life.
dragon
I know a lot of it is just your typical sales pitch, but I've looked at coins for sale from LARGE NATIONAL DEALERS at big shows and they tell me how "PQ" this coin is, and that they resubmitted it 5 times for an upgrade and so on, and in reality the coin is really nothing special at all for the grade. I once looked at an expensive Morgan dollar from a VERY well respected national dealer that was in a PCGS MS64 holder. He swore to me the coin was grossly undergraded, PCGS was nuts, and it should've easily been an MS66 all day long, and it wasn't for sale because he was going to walk it through again at the show to PCGS. In reality, the coin was probably a nice 65 but had faint horizontal slide marks all over Libertys cheek that were only visible when tilting the coin, and was correctly graded an MS64. This is just one example of MANY I've seen, and I think D. Hall was correct in his comments about many dealers grading skills.
There is however a minority of dealers that are in fact very, very sharp, but I also think there's a LOT of dealers out there that couldn't consistently and correctly grade coins to save their life.
dragon
0
Comments
Glen
it is really REALLY uncommon for a dealer and/or collector to have profecency in grading coins
sincerely michael
I'm not saying the dealers are crooked are anything like that, they're just highly optimistic about their own coins and in their rush to sell sell sell they never took the time to realize & understand the finer points of coin grading.
Lets state one absolute about dealers. After ten, twenty or thirty years in the business if you can't tell which coins are original, and which are harshly cleaned you are in the wrong business or a bold faced liar.
Tyler
<< <i>Dealers know how to grade very well. Whether they honestly declare the grade they think it grades is altogether different! >>
I feel this statement by Arco holds true in many situations. And when you are selling they seem to sharpen up and the whole story changes. And ohhhh how I hate the stories.
Glenn
Some dealers just don't care. I know a few major dealers who view coins as "widgets" and are only out to sell as many as they can.
You'd be amazed at how many dealers call me and tell me they have wild colored coins when in reality the coins are ugly. Some of them know, and whats really sad, some have no clue.
With a few major "crackout" dealers-especially those who know how to grade, everything is the next grade up. Theres a lot to weed through out there.
I will stand by this statement, overall MOST MAJOR dealers DO know how to grade-its just they are out to sell coins.
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
again, i go back to, that a grade comes AFTER you, as the owner of the coin, determine what it's worth TO YOU. so if a common morgan dollar worn down to a barely legible date is worth 500 bucks to me, then it grades ms-65 TO ME. it doesn't mean i can't grade, it means i have a ridiculous attachment to the coin
these kinds of arguments go on & on because enough hype & misinformation has been bandied about that your average joe-blow collector today actually believes that a grade is somehow inherent to a coin. IT'S NOT
what i'm trying to say is that today's collector goes in w/ the attitude "i'm looking for this coin in that grade", rather than "i'm looking for this coin in this price range".
however 199% agreement w/ your term "slab broker". been using that term for years.
K S
Did you guys know that most "major" dealers don't even own their coins? Most of the high dollar coins in dealer's cases belong to wealthy collectors. Therefore, one could argue that a dealer with only $100,000 of coins in his case could own more stock than a dealer with $1,000,000 in her case.
Here's another thought: some dealers who specialize in a certain series, whether it be colonial coins or Franklin halves, will more than likely know WAY more about their specialty than any of the graders at the services OR any of the self purported experts at the "major" dealers.
jmho
Ed
My suspicions are that to really grade coins well you need an IQ of over 125, excellent vision and at least three years experience messin'
with coins.
The average person has an IQ of around 100. That fact alone, in my opinion, precludes most from ever learning how to grade.
Of course, grading is subjective, but there is an vein of objectivity about it.
<< <i>Yes, and I'll go one step further. Most people can't grade coins.
My suspicions are that to really grade coins well you need an IQ of over 125, excellent vision and at least three years experience messin'
with coins.
The average person has an IQ of around 100. That fact alone, in my opinion, precludes most from ever learning how to grade.
Of course, grading is subjective, but there is an vein of objectivity about it. >>
Adrian, what's your IQ?
Adrian - getting a jump start on Friday?
For some - they just can't help themselves, it's ingrained into their very being. I've had a major dealer give me a heads up on a nice trade dollar in for grading saying they expected it to 64 and then when it came back as a 65 saying it should have 66'd. It just comes naturally and you learn to tune it out.
If I said it was 140 you'ld say big deal.
If I said it was 100, you'ld laugh at me.
Seems like a totally losing answer to give.
adrian
Why do I say that? Look at all the inconsistencies we read about on this board every day. Coin bagged for AT one day, slabbed 63 the next day, cracked again and 64 the next time, etc. etc.
He then called an associate in to also look at a couple of them and there was consensus on most and slight disagreement on one or two of them.
My observation is that most of us can determine G, F, or AU vs MS. It's in the more technical numerical grading within those categories that it gets tough.
The rub on the coin, hairlines etc. That is where the pro's have it over me and most dealers.
Dan
O.K., I've got that off my chest. Grading is the offering of an opinion. Some opinions are more well informed than others but I've been around long enough and have seen enough variations in grading from those that are suppose to be the "professionals" that for me investing in that opinion or spending more than disposible income to enjoy this hobby where the prices are closely tied to those opinions is out of the question.
As for the comments that I read here about the quality of the coins they see at shows, my response is that overgrading by the certification companies is the norm. What you see is only slightly lower than the average. The reason I say "slightly lower" is that many of the PQ and dead on graded coins get into collections, and they stay there. When they brought on the market, three things usually happen them. (1) They are sold quickly, often at premium prices, to select clients or want list customers. (2) They get cracked out and regraded. Sometimes the choice EF-45 ends up an AU-55 or 58 holder and joins the "overgraded group." (3) The dealers ask prices that are too high and the coin sits in inventory for a while.
I did not read Mr. Hall's comments, but if they were what they seem to be, I'd suggest that he should to look closer at home before he hurls any more mud balls at other people’s professional abilities. His grading service ON AVERAGE is the best, but it is hardly the paragon of consistency or virtue.
I agree totally and stand corrected with regard to the implication you drew from my comment.
who can grade and buy coins at reasonable prices."
I disagree. Many dealers stay in business by buying from the public and paying shamefully low prices.
adrian
Most dealers can probably accurately grade one or two series that they specialized in as collectors (before they became a dealer) the problem comes when they try to sell a little of everything and have no clue how to properly evaluate the true condition (strike/luster) of coins they know little about.
RR, very true, and even with that statement we're being nice as most don't know how to grade, period!
On a similar note, you can easily tell just from these boards, dealer-wise who can grade well - seems those with generally intelligent insight and posts/threads offer a wide knowledge of coins plus caring attitude to the customers like Legend, Adrian, Mark (CoinGuy) and Mike P @ Whitlow just to mention a few at the top.....they rule in those areas. All the other, as DH stated indeed know zilch about grading, are generally clueless, and rip off most newbie's and uninformed collectors.
Marc
And I have to disagree right back. Over the nine years that I have been in business, I have purchased very little from the public. I've purchased a couple of small collections and accumulations, but very very little at the shows. Over 95% of what I buy is from other dealers, and if I had not known how to grade I would have been history long ago.
Undoubtedly intrinsic visual recognition and memory are important. Nevertheless, It is a skill can be taught but has little to do with global IQ scores (witin the normal range).
Coin grading is not theoretical mathmatics.
Most people grossly overimagine their intellegence (even coin collectors and dealers).
Adrian I think my IQ is 98 and I make my living by my grading skills. In the series I deal with every day I can pretty much nail what the coin will grade. I'm the first to admit if you covered the grades on the coins in your inventory and I tried to grade them I'd be all over the map.
It is hard to grade coins. A few months ago at the Dallas Coin Club we had a little grading test. There were only a few collectors who got more than three out of ten right. It was a real eye opener for many of these guys just how hard it is to grade them. It's a lot easier to look at a coin someone else has graded and be a critic than to grade them yourself.
<< <i>I disagree. Many dealers stay in business by buying from the public and paying shamefully low prices. >>
ANACONDA does say MANY dealers not ALL dealers or MOST dealers. As a "collector" I track offering, sale and auction prices of coins (so I know what coins are worth)...I also offer many coins for sale through different venues. I don't even try to sell my coins to large national dealers anymore...the prices I have been offered by several such dealers in the past were so far from the reality of the marketplace (and their selling prices) it was disgusting. I know of no worse way to sell coins (and no I won't mention names). This is only a reflection on these dealers, not on dealers in general. The thing that slays me is that the markups of these type of dealers are often defended by their need to cover overhead...why is it that in this industry alone the economy of scale principal is reversed?
RELLA
who boasts of twenty years experience in his craft
while in fact he has had only one year of experience...
twenty times.
GRADING IS 100% SUBJECTIVE
the grade of a coin is based ENTIRELY on what the owner thinks the coin is worth. it is not even a stable number, ie as billjones points out, xf-45 today could very easily mean au-53 tomorrow, if tomorrow's owner thinks the coin is worht that much more. i don't care what rhetoric a plastic co. tries to ram down your throat, no matter what anyone says, grading is, and always will be, 100% subjective
K S
1) how honest they are in their assessments
2) how objective they are about their own coins.
Many think in terms of dollars and profits, rather than the actual accuracy of the grading.
I often hear people speak of how much more a given coin is worth in the next higher grade, without regard to whether the coin has any realistic claims to that grade.
I also frequently hear that someone has paid a price that corresponds to way over grade such and such for a coin, so it must/should grade a point higher. That is obviously not necessarily the case!
Finally, I see people compare their coins to others that have been overgraded and expect/want theirs to be overgraded too. In those situations, they are ignoring the other hundreds or thousands of coins of the same type and/or date that are accurately graded and which better match theirs, quality/grade wise.
assorted specialists. You look for the following : Competence, good chemistry, straight talk,
availability and honesty. I now only deal with 5 regular dealers, each for specialties that I am
interested in. Each carries quality material at fair prices. Each will buy back coins at fair prices.
each offers coins that are truly choice for the grade. Each will offer services such as payment plans,
will act as agents in reviewing and bidding on auction lots. Each will give good and reliable advice
in building a collection that will be a beautiful and economically sound asset. Each dealer will go the
extra mile to look out for your collecting interests and inform you of choice material that may be of interest
to you.
In return, these dealers are shown loyalty and respect for their knowledge. Even though it is a
bussiness relationship, a bond of mutual friendship and trust is formed over the test of time.
Camelot
ARCO: Whether they honestly declare the grade they think it grades is altogether different!
stman: when you are selling they seem to sharpen up and the whole story changes.
Legend: Some of them know, and whats really sad, some have no clue.
Steve27: on the other hand grading is somewhat subjective
dorkkarl: "grading" means nothing more than applying a value to a coin
NumisEd: some dealers who specialize in a certain series...... will more than likely know WAY more about their specialty than any of the........self purported experts at the "major" dealers.
ANACONDA: Most people can't grade coins.
AbesNeighbor: most of us can determine G, F, or AU vs MS. It's in the more technical numerical grading within those categories that it gets tough.
pmh1nic: How can we begin to have a discussion about how accurately one group versus another can graded when we haven't first established that there are firm, precisely defined, unchanging grading standards.
BillJones: about the quality of the coins they see at shows........What you see is only slightly lower than the average.
TheNumish: It's a lot easier to look at a coin someone else has graded and be a critic than to grade them yourself.
I'm not saying the dealers are crooked are anything like that, not talking about wannabe dealers on eBay, or your former grader Pinnacle Rarities type dealer, just your average ole run of the mill coin shop owner.
You guys are too used to PCGS slabs and your PCGS dealers in your PCGS world, who aren't the typical collectors & dealers. Most average collectors don't even know what PCGS is or even care. To most average dealers the grade on the slab is for cross referencing the gray sheet if they are even sophiscated enough to have a graysheet. It doesn't matter to them if the grade is assigned by PCGS, ICG, SEGS, PCI or ACG. They really don't know or care about the difference nor do their customers.
At my club auction the auctioner was pushing a PCI coin at a dealer one time because nobody else was bidding (it was because of the series, not the slab) even called him by name and said bid on this, it's a good deal and you can sell it in your shop, and this dealer who is a grumyp old timer about 80 years old scratches his head, pushed his glasses back up on his nose and said "Weeelllllll, that grading company isn't really that accurate."
I hollered AMEN brother and started praising the Lord, my eyes rolled back in my head and I started speaking tounges and the prez told me to be quite or leave.
I took a $500 bag toned toned CC Morgan in an NGC holder with me one night and passed it around and all the other members thought I was weird, they thought the coin was weird, and they thought the holder was weird. They were totally clueless.
I hate it when you see my post before I can edit the spelling.
Always looking for nice type coins
my local dealer
Speaking strictly for myself i wish i was better at grading, when i reach the level i wish to achieve i would be on equal ground with Pcgs/Ngc graders especially on consistency, something that requires almost daily involvement to stay sharp with any series.
My hats off to all the graders of the top services!
I've noticed at some shows, EVERYONE including myself will blow it on some pieces!
Dave
I believe David Hall's comments agitated a good number of dealers. Rightfully so. I know it cost them some nice business. Plenty of people that were splitting their submissions between PCGS and NGC, took their PCGS box, re-packaged the coins and sent them to NGC. A pretty unwise statement to make on this Forum.
Billjones said - "And I have to disagree right back. Over the nine years that I have been in business, I have purchased very little from the public. I've purchased a couple of small collections and accumulations, but very very little at the shows. Over 95% of what I buy is from other dealers, and if I had not known how to grade I would have been history long ago. "
My response - Bill, you, I am sure, are not one of the many dealers I am talking about. Pick up your phone book. Hand someone who is not known by the local dealers, a hand full of nice coins, graded or not. Tell them to go to 5 coin dealers and get offers on the coins. You might have an eye opener.
There are probably thousands of dealers in the United States. Only an extremely small fraction of coin dealers attend shows. "Many" does not mean "most" (or you) and "dealers" does not mean "dealers who attend coin shows."
adrian
Not true, and clealy so. And to prove my point --
Show me a coin that grades Good 4 by most people. No one will grade it uncirculated.
It is indeed subjective to a degee but it is not completely subjective.
<< <i>It is hard to grade coins. A few months ago at the Dallas Coin Club we had a little grading test. There were only a few collectors who got more than three out of ten right. It was a real eye opener for many of these guys just how hard it is to grade them. >>
I'm presuming the ten coins were slabbed MS coins.
That's not a very fair test because it presumes all ten coins were graded perfectly the first time. Since we all know coins get cracked out and they may go up or down a point especially if submitted to a different service, that's what I'd use as a benchmark - how many were graded within one point of the slabbed grade. If I got nine out of ten I would think I knew a little about grading MS coins.
If I think a slabbed 64 is a 67, I have a problem. If I think a slabbed 64 is a 65, I wouldn't assume I'm necessarily wrong. It could be just a difference of opinion.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
gotta agree there - in general. my dealer i use regularly is a great guy and generally uses variations of Bid and Ask prices when buying and selling - fair enough.
i've watched the others, however, offer prices to old ladies that would make you do a mike brady-style doubletake, forcing you into a drooling catatonic state that leaves you paralyzed for several minutes.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
And...
Grading is the processing of information. Information about strike, luster, color, centering, defects and also how lighting and mood affect the processing of that information ......it's the nuances of the aforementioned and how they relate to each other and affect value and desireabliity. It also has to do with memory which has nothing to do, generally speakikng, with IQ. It also has to do with a few other things including but not limited to having your pulse on the market.
The quality of the information processessor affects the output.
A: Dealer is buying... They'll always be graded too LOW.
B: Dealer is selling... They'll always be graded too HIGH.
C: They work for a grading company... They'll always be graded WRONG typically on the HIGH side.
E: Collector is buying.... They'll typically be graded too LOW.
F: E-Bay seller.... "Someone who told them its worth a fortune and/or is rare." is typically way WRONG on everything.
Anaconda, I pretty much agree with you, however, when I took the 3 1/2 hr. Mensa admission test a long time ago, I remember the last 45 minutes of the test was based solely on memory and recollection of exact details of a given situation. At least I think it was, I really can't remember......
dragon
<< <i>There are probably thousands of dealers in the United States. >>
i would dispute that assertion in a second. there may be thousands of dealer-wannabes, but actual coin dealers, i seriously doubt it. i'd guess there are at most HUNDREDS of coin dealers.
but agree w/ the rest of that sentence
<< <i>"GRADING IS 100% SUBJECTIVE" Not true, and clealy so. And to prove my point -- Show me a coin that grades Good 4 by most people. No one will grade it uncirculated. >>
that don't prove diddly. the degree to which it is subjective is irrelevant. i'm sure you could find a flipped-out whack-job somewhere who would value it as uncirculated, which it follows that he therefore grades it uncirculated. put it another way, there is nothing objective about how one values a coin.
1 last thing, the whole "i-q" thing is a bunch of bogus baloney. when i was in middle school, i scored in the 80's on a i-q test. the school though i might have mental problems, so i was retested a year later, & it had magically risen to 148. yet i was the same person, right? same w/ coins. you call it g-4, i call it ms-65, it's still the same dang coin. all that matters is what YOU value it at
K S
Ie., you don't take a Large Cent to Gus Tiso, you don't take a Seated Dollar to Tom Reynolds, and you don't take a Buffalo Nickel to Jay Cline.
I think as long as a reasonably knowledgeable collector is buying coins from someone who specializes in his niche, I don't think the discussed grading issues will surface.
The smart dealers know what they do well, and what they don't. Ie., if you want a high end PF modern, someone like Laura will direct you to another dealer, she would not make a claim to be knowledgeable in this area.
Know which dealers specialize in what, and you, as a collector, should have fewer headaches.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I think they were right the first time.
Bwuahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!
Russ, NCNE