Ok, i'll fess up. Knowing how to grade is important. If you have a line of 10 $50 round Pan Pacs in PCGS MS 63 holders in a row, oriented from the left to the right with the barely madest coin on the left and the "oh, my goodness, i'm gonna crack this sucker out" coin on the right, the coin on the far left may be very, very difficult to get back into another 63 holder if someone is stupid enough to crack it out.
The coin on the far right hand side on the other hand, is possibly likely (attorney weasel words) to end up in a 64 holder.
Is the coin on the far left worth a whole hell of a lot less than the coin on the far right?
In my book, it is.
So, if money means anything to you, being able to grade is important.
It's funny that most collectors think most dealers can't grade worth a lick. But obviously they [the collector] can. Maybe most collectors can tell the difference between a ms 60 and a ms 65. that's not too tough. The problem is between a ms 58 and a ms 60 or a ms 64 and a ms 65. When you are spending a lot of money, you want to be pretty sure of the grade. I'll take pcgs or ngc anytime. At least they don't have an agenda with my money. They have to try to be right. Or they'll be out of business. Remember business before them. steve
Some dealers overgrade on purpose, so they can get extra profit margin. Did you ever sell a coin to a dealer to be told it was AU, and a few weeks later find it in their case as a MS65? I have. So, I think dealers know how to grade, they are just out to make as much profit as they can. After all business is about making money.
Buyer's beware (and seller's, too).
To get back to the original question. Do dealers know how to grade--YES!
The hidden question. Do dealers take advantage with their knowledge--Some do and many (if not most) are reputable. A few give the rest a bad name.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>It's funny that most collectors think most dealers can't grade worth a lick. But obviously they [the collector] can. Maybe most collectors can tell the difference between a ms 60 and a ms 65. that's not too tough. The problem is between a ms 58 and a ms 60 or a ms 64 and a ms 65. When you are spending a lot of money, you want to be pretty sure of the grade. I'll take pcgs or ngc anytime. At least they don't have an agenda with my money. They have to try to be right. Or they'll be out of business. Remember business before them. steve >>
........hi route 66 welcome to the forum........what you say is true........but i have met many who dont know a ms60 from a ms65........as far as au58 to ms64.........time well spent learning, going to shows, and looking at thousands of coins will cure that.....i firmly beleive anyone who collects coins should know what they are looking at be it a au58 or a ms64.
My suspicions are that to really grade coins well you need an IQ of over 125, excellent vision and at least three years experience messin'
Anaconda is leading me to believe that high IQ corresponds with level of arrogance.
dweeber - I don't see how you can possibly correlate "high IQ" and "arrogance" based on that statement. the only characteristic i see in that statement is "arrogance".
thanks Ron. My problem with your comment about examining thousand of coins and being able to tell a ms 64 is; i'm under the impression that pcgs and ngc have more than one person grading the same coins and sometimes they can't even come to the same conclusion. I'm sure that sometimes you even disagree with some of your dealer friends. If they can't, how can we. And if 3 graders are grading the same coin, why are they [wrong?] so often. If they really are!! I personally will believe pcgs or ngc before I believe a collector who hasn't the same experience. Of course, there are exceptions. Steve
<< <i>thanks Ron. My problem with your comment about examining thousand of coins and being able to tell a ms 64 is; i'm under the impression that pcgs and ngc have more than one person grading the same coins and sometimes they can't even come to the same conclusion. I'm sure that sometimes you even disagree with some of your dealer friends. If they can't, how can we. And if 3 graders are grading the same coin, why are they [wrong?] so often. If they really are!! I personally will believe pcgs or ngc before I believe a collector who hasn't the same experience. Of course, there are exceptions. Steve >>
........hi again steve..true i understand what you are saying....but always remember we can take our time..........we come to a conclusion. they have 3 or 4 people maybe looking at it.and what it comes down to is just an opinion....the diffrence is they charge 16.00 to give it..........thats what the hobby has become.........anyway welcome to the forum, its a lot of fun
<< <i>Ok, i'll fess up. Knowing how to grade is important. If you have a line of 10 $50 round Pan Pacs in PCGS MS 63 holders in a row, oriented from the left to the right with the barely madest coin on the left and the "oh, my goodness, i'm gonna crack this sucker out" coin on the right, the coin on the far left may be very, very difficult to get back into another 63 holder if someone is stupid enough to crack it out.
The coin on the far right hand side on the other hand, is possibly likely (attorney weasel words) to end up in a 64 holder.
Is the coin on the far left worth a whole hell of a lot less than the coin on the far right?
In my book, it is.
So, if money means anything to you, being able to grade is important. >>
................... adrian thats right !............its the most inportant thing one will ever need to know if you are buying or selling any coin..be it a pan-pac ms63 or a 1956 washington quarter...........the grade of the coin will determine the price you pay.......if the opinions rendered by any grading service.........do not meet my standards.......i dont care what the grading services say, as i have seen to many that are one grade today, and a diffrent grade tomorrow.........{an overgraded coin is an overpriced coin}...period! ..collecting since the 1950,s
If most coin dealers don't know how to grade then the next time I see one of those "PQ" stickers on their coins I am not going to believe them-----------BigE
I don't have time to read the whole thread so this may be redundant.
I agree that most dealers can't grade ALL series accurately. It's just too much to ask. If you get a coin from Snow or Cline (both specialists), it's likely the coin is accurately graded.
So, I would ask Hall the same. Does he have specialists in each series grading the coins??
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
<< <i>Great post....in summation......learn how to grade yourself. K >>
................thank you, thats all iam saying.................or anyone else too..........if you take your time, and learn to grade your coins, chances are you wont get stuck with an over graded coin, thus an overpriced coin...........will you be perfect all the time? probably not..........however, your chances are much better that you wont get taken or stuck with a grossly over priced coin........
When I first joined the "boards", I was a little offended by some of the threads and particuarly the dealer bashing. It took a little time but I finally "accepted" it.
In the coin business I try to go about my business and not cause too many waves. It has taken me MANY years (full time) to fine tune my way of doing business. 99% of my business is wholesale. I find that way is easier for me. Not that I don't believe that the retail collector is the most important part, because I do. It's just that I attract the collectors that are sure I'm an idiot and they know more than me. That I don't need. I prefer to interact with people willing to listen and learn when they ask a question of me. Not interupt me and give their opinion. Perhaps that is why I donate my time and money to the ANA at the summer seminars.
Grading is subjective and scientific in my opinion. How you might ask? Well, circulated coins are graded based on the amount of wear, and corresponding detail left, for that example. Mint state examples are graded on the amount of blemishes (post striking) that are evident. Grading is not putting a value on coins, as we have all seen GEM lightly circulated coins sell for more than ugly beat-up 60's or 61's sell fore. Or perhaps that double rainbow toned coin with a bag mark on the face that sells for 5 times it's certified grade.
Alot has been said on this thread. I enjoyed reading them all. I will say this: I AM A PROFESSIONAL NUMISMATIST, AND COIN DEALER. Heck, some people even say that I can grade (not many, coinguy1). I like my vocation, and can't think of anything else I would rather do.
njcoincrank
PS I do realize that it takes years to learn the little differences in all the series. Many dealers take the time, as do many collectors. Unfortunately, many dealers and collectors alike do not.
Tad, I believe it's D. If you assign numbers to the letters at the right of the puzzle corresponding with their position in the alphabet, the sequence is 10,9,8,7 and 11,6,1, ? Continuing to subtract 5, the next number is -4. Ordinal -4 is D. JMO, and good luck.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
"Lets face it, grading is nothing more than a subjective opinion formed by an individual. While there maybe grading standards that are acknowledged, there will always be variations among what EVERYONE will see. At least the services TRY to maintain a consistant approcah to check things in check."
Like I said...Folly!
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Comments
<< <i>Hey Ron! With regards to my ability to grade, I said:
"i'm not saying that i can or can't..."
adrian >>
....yes i know what you are saying...........fess up.........
The coin on the far right hand side on the other hand, is possibly likely (attorney weasel words) to end up in a 64 holder.
Is the coin on the far left worth a whole hell of a lot less than the coin on the far right?
In my book, it is.
So, if money means anything to you, being able to grade is important.
Buyer's beware (and seller's, too).
To get back to the original question. Do dealers know how to grade--YES!
The hidden question. Do dealers take advantage with their knowledge--Some do and many (if not most) are reputable. A few give the rest a bad name.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>It's funny that most collectors think most dealers can't grade worth a lick. But obviously they [the collector] can. Maybe most collectors can tell the difference between a ms 60 and a ms 65. that's not too tough. The problem is between a ms 58 and a ms 60 or a ms 64 and a ms 65. When you are spending a lot of money, you want to be pretty sure of the grade. I'll take pcgs or ngc anytime. At least they don't have an agenda with my money. They have to try to be right. Or they'll be out of business. Remember business before them. steve >>
........hi route 66 welcome to the forum........what you say is true........but i have met many who dont know a ms60 from a ms65........as far as au58 to ms64.........time well spent learning, going to shows, and looking at thousands of coins will cure that.....i firmly beleive anyone who collects coins should know what they are looking at be it a au58 or a ms64.
Anaconda is leading me to believe that high IQ corresponds with level of arrogance.
dweeber - I don't see how you can possibly correlate "high IQ" and "arrogance" based on that statement. the only characteristic i see in that statement is "arrogance".
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
<< <i>thanks Ron. My problem with your comment about examining thousand of coins and being able to tell a ms 64 is; i'm under the impression that pcgs and ngc have more than one person grading the same coins and sometimes they can't even come to the same conclusion. I'm sure that sometimes you even disagree with some of your dealer friends. If they can't, how can we. And if 3 graders are grading the same coin, why are they [wrong?] so often. If they really are!! I personally will believe pcgs or ngc before I believe a collector who hasn't the same experience. Of course, there are exceptions. Steve >>
........hi again steve..true i understand what you are saying....but always remember we can take our time..........we come to a conclusion. they have 3 or 4 people maybe looking at it.and what it comes down to is just an opinion....the diffrence is they charge 16.00 to give it..........thats what the hobby has become.........anyway welcome to the forum, its a lot of fun
..................................................................plus or minus 35 points. Now when it comes to forged coins
and AT coins I am accurate only 99% of the time.
Camelot
<< <i>Ok, i'll fess up. Knowing how to grade is important. If you have a line of 10 $50 round Pan Pacs in PCGS MS 63 holders in a row, oriented from the left to the right with the barely madest coin on the left and the "oh, my goodness, i'm gonna crack this sucker out" coin on the right, the coin on the far left may be very, very difficult to get back into another 63 holder if someone is stupid enough to crack it out.
The coin on the far right hand side on the other hand, is possibly likely (attorney weasel words) to end up in a 64 holder.
Is the coin on the far left worth a whole hell of a lot less than the coin on the far right?
In my book, it is.
So, if money means anything to you, being able to grade is important. >>
................... adrian thats right !............its the most inportant thing one will ever need to know if you are buying or selling any coin..be it a pan-pac ms63 or a 1956 washington quarter...........the grade of the coin will determine the price you pay.......if the opinions rendered by any grading service.........do not meet my standards.......i dont care what the grading services say, as i have seen to many that are one grade today, and a diffrent grade tomorrow.........{an overgraded coin is an overpriced coin}...period! ..collecting since the 1950,s
If you really want to know what makes money for dealers, it isn't their abilities at grading coins.
It's their ability to instill confidence in people they deal with. They talk sellers into selling (or consigning) and buyers into buying.
This can be done honestly or dishonestly.
Camelot
I agree that most dealers can't grade ALL series accurately. It's just too much to ask. If you get a coin from Snow or Cline (both specialists), it's likely the coin is accurately graded.
So, I would ask Hall the same. Does he have specialists in each series grading the coins??
(I typed the word "I", in the previous post and then hit "reply to thread" and then edit and then i finished the thought)
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
<< <i>Great post....in summation......learn how to grade yourself. K >>
................thank you, thats all iam saying.................or anyone else too..........if you take your time, and learn to grade your coins, chances are you wont get stuck with an over graded coin, thus an overpriced coin...........will you be perfect all the time? probably not..........however, your chances are much better that you wont get taken or stuck with a grossly over priced coin........
In the coin business I try to go about my business and not cause too many waves. It has taken me MANY years (full time) to fine tune my way of doing business. 99% of my business is wholesale. I find that way is easier for me. Not that I don't believe that the retail collector is the most important part, because I do. It's just that I attract the collectors that are sure I'm an idiot and they know more than me. That I don't need. I prefer to interact with people willing to listen and learn when they ask a question of me. Not interupt me and give their opinion. Perhaps that is why I donate my time and money to the ANA at the summer seminars.
Grading is subjective and scientific in my opinion. How you might ask? Well, circulated coins are graded based on the amount of wear, and corresponding detail left, for that example. Mint state examples are graded on the amount of blemishes (post striking) that are evident. Grading is not putting a value on coins, as we have all seen GEM lightly circulated coins sell for more than ugly beat-up 60's or 61's sell fore. Or perhaps that double rainbow toned coin with a bag mark on the face that sells for 5 times it's certified grade.
Alot has been said on this thread. I enjoyed reading them all. I will say this: I AM A PROFESSIONAL NUMISMATIST, AND COIN DEALER. Heck, some people even say that I can grade (not many, coinguy1). I like my vocation, and can't think of anything else I would rather do.
njcoincrank
PS I do realize that it takes years to learn the little differences in all the series. Many dealers take the time, as do many collectors. Unfortunately, many dealers and collectors alike do not.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
"Lets face it, grading is nothing more than a subjective opinion formed by an individual. While there maybe grading standards that are acknowledged, there will always be variations among what EVERYONE will see. At least the services TRY to maintain a consistant approcah to check things in check."
Like I said...Folly!