The ten coins were graded and were pretty average coins. The lighting in the room wasn't that great but we did this for fun. It was still an eye opener seeing the range of grades each coin received.
If you ever get a chance have a friend cover up some coins and grade them to see how you do. They don't have to be tricky coins but just average coins for the grade. I agree if you come within a point your doing pretty well. It's a great way to learn.
I think all the points have been well made here, but I would also like to add that grading is applying a numerical value to an opinion. Statisticans will tell you that you cannot do this accurately for anything. You are mixing ordinal and cardinal values, i.e. oranges and apples. The precision we seek is extremely difficult at best given perfect information and a stationary universal grading standard. None of this happens in the real world of grading.
I would suggest that there is a percentage of folks who make quite a nice living by having strong grading capabilities. However, this skill is not required to be a successful coin dealer, although it does help if you have the skill. It is the difference between being a professional golfer, are you a club pro or a PGA professional? A club pro is still pretty good, but he earns his living a different way.
We also have to differentiate between the super eye graders and the folks who get it right pretty much most of the time. I would guess that even at the best shops, i.e. Legend, there is someone whose opinion on certain series carries more weight because of their eye.
Retired United States Mint guy, now working on an Everyman Type Set.
In one of Traver's books he recounts a story about 20 dealers looking at the same coins to express an opinion on grades. There was considerable disparity in the grades. I agree with Hall on his comment that only a few dealers really know how to grade (don't everyone faint on me). I witnessed the expert in a series do a walkthrough for upgrades at a show. PCGS did not upgrade one coin. Was it wishful thinking or were they near misses that on another day might upgrade? I don't know, quite frankly I ain't that smart, but I do know if he was 0 for ten then I better stay out of that game.
Most of the dealers at the local shows I attend couldn't grade an AU from a 63 or a 65 from a 66 etc. They aren't full time graders, they are dealers and I don't expect them to be the final word on grades.
How can we begin to have a discussion about how accurately one group versus another can graded when we haven't first established that there are firm, precisely defined, unchanging grading standards.
Bingo!
We are ranging from Karl, who asserts that grading is merely assigning value to Anaconda, who's opinion is that most collectors are too unintelligent to learn how to grade. Apparently they are employing their own standards, and although they don't arrive at the same results, to me it's about as farfetched as THAT company employing its own standard and trying to imply it is "mainstream." (No offense intended to either of you)
My experience is that a great many of the "dealers" I've met are within the norm, with the main exception being that the assign a grade commensurate with the money they want to receive or spend, for the same coin.
Anaconda Really don't know what kind of people you are dealing with to feel so poorly about people in general, but I find it hard to accept that the average person is as "limited" as you claim is your experience.
Most of you guys have a tremendous amount of real world experience, much more than I (Joe average collector). But I've read quite a bit on the subject (ANA grading guide, PCGS grading guide, Photograde) and attended a three day ANA grading seminar. I've spent a lot of time (probably too many of hours) discussing this subject with many other collectors and dealers so I have some basis to comment.
The idea that coins can be consistently graded based on a floating set of standards that are not universally accepted and change somewhat depending on the series and in which subjective aspects have a significant bearing on the grade is ludicrous.
And the motivation for promoting that myth ... PROFIT.
So this discussion is an illustration of a dog chasing his tail.
I work a company that manufacturers electronic components. A tremendous amount of time is spent among industry organizations determine standards and tolerance for those standards. You can not have a conversation about accuracy and consistence UNTIL the standards have been established.
Before we can have an intelligent discussion about grading accuracy and consistency among dealers and collectors there first needs to be an agreed upon standard and someway to remove or reduce the influence of subjective factors.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
the IQ numbers being tossed around here are hardly believable. the average range is 80-120. 130 is exceptional intelligence, 140-150 borderline genius.
baccaruda, a monkey could get lucky & score a 150. it don't mean diddly. genius isn't a measure of how much brain power you have, but what you use it for
However we Dealers don't just over grade we under grade also. I sold a raw 1911-D $2-1/2 indain to a collector as a XF/AU, he was afraid it was fake and asked me to send it in and have it authenticated.
Just got it back on friday NGC AU58
I need to learn to grade too.
One thing for sure my customers keep coming back, I used to think it was my personality. LOL
<< <i>baccaruda, a monkey could get lucky & score a 150. it don't mean diddly. genius isn't a measure of how much brain power you have, but what you use it for
take it from ... a non-genius
K S >>
Exactly Karl, I waited for somebody to bash IQ before I added more about IQ. I have been labeled as a 143 IQ, and To me it's a load of crap. Yes, I am considered by my peers to be smarter than the average bear. In my case I feel its intuition, cosmic consciousness, right brain with a healthy dose of left brain, so on and so on. So how does IQ account for the right/left brain dominance or balance. Scientists still don't understand exactly how the brain processes information, let alone intuition, discernment, etc ("soul" or "spirit" qualities). The problem with man is that we always have to categorize everything (My take of Adam and Eve in the garden, naming all the animals, etc) Some people are always going to be better at something, worse at something, average at something. David hall must be pretty good at something, what, I don't know all his talents, but he's pretty damn successful.
Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
<< <i>I fiquere my IQ ranks up there with the grade of Type coins I like to collect 64 - 68. >>
Bear, I don't know what empirical number you might achieve from any given test, but you have always displayed WISDOM, and that is a true gift. Another point. My family has lot's of Dyslexia, word retrieval problems, learning disabilities, etc. (usually associated with high IQ) My lil sis was actually labeled mentally retarded by the board of education she was under. At some point in her life, a non conformist teacher recognized some things, and got her straightened out. She graduated from college with numerous honors, 4.0 GPA, on a full blown scholarship. This should be a good example of how flawed the "system" is!
Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
Before I said my IQ was 98 but I lied. I really think it's 97 or 96. Maybe after the party I went to last weekend it's 95.
My wife will tell you my IQ is really about 75. The same as a chimp except she'll tell you I can't be trained as well. I can tie my own shoes and can drive a car. That's something.
However we Dealers don't just over grade we under grade also. I sold a raw 1911-D $2-1/2 indain to a collector as a XF/AU, he was afraid it was fake and asked me to send it in and have it authenticated.
Randy,
I don't want to start a ngc flame but you may have been one of those honest dealers that indeed know how to grade. Your XF/AU piece that came back NGC-58 makes me almost bet that coin is indeed an XF-45 at best!! Keep it up!!! Something to think about as huge percentage of NGC stuff is overgraded by one point, IMHO
<< <i>However we Dealers don't just over grade we under grade also. I sold a raw 1911-D $2-1/2 indain to a collector as a XF/AU, he was afraid it was fake and asked me to send it in and have it authenticated.
Randy,
I don't want to start a ngc flame but you may have been one of those honest dealers that indeed know how to grade. Your XF/AU piece that came back NGC-58 makes me almost bet that coin is indeed an XF-45 at best!! Keep it up!!! Something to think about as huge percentage of NGC stuff is overgraded by one point, IMHO
Marc >>
Marc: was Rick Montgomery over grading gold by one point when he was at PCGS or did he just start doing that when he left to go to work for NGC???????
TextMarc: was Rick Montgomery over grading gold by one point when he was at PCGS or did he just start doing that when he left to go to work for NGC???????
Irish/ Mike,
Sorry, indeed so, I believe when he left to NGC ! , I mean it - I am really disspaointed w/NGC grading . AT PCGS I find a much much lower percentage, really more like 20% if even that high, and I'm being nice. Thats why most dealers ship coins to NGC for grading, they know they'll get better grades period! NGC however is up there with PCGS but we all know serious grading is @PCGS. I don't care for any comments here to rebutt it all, I've heard it all - so whatever, everyone has his opinion, and its JMHO!!!!!! Mike, if your as busy as I am, and I know you are lets get on to writing 1003's
My family has lot's of Dyslexia, word retrieval problems, learning disabilities, etc.
i can see that. true IQ tests are all abstract thinking. you'll never see anything where numbers or memory are important. it's all based on how your mind relates sequences, patterns, and shapes.
To answer dragon`s question.IMOP,of the dealers I encounter,take 10 at random: 1 in 10 are very good,they are the ones you see at the show early scarfing up the RIPS from the other 9 below.These dealers for the most part do not deal with the public,instead they buy from the 9 below.On the other hand,many of these "dealers" do not sell to the public,instead, they sell to other dealers,or have "salespeople" do the "dirty work"!
3 in 10 are ok at grading,they do alright,picking up some RIPS now and then from other dealers, as well as making some goof-ups along the way.These dealers generally treat the public decently.
The other 6 do not have a clue,they rely on the expertise,or lack thereof, of other dealers and collectors.3 are honestly clueless,3 are deceitful and clueless.
At first,Homerunhall`s comments rubbed me the wrong way.After thinking about it the months since his comments hit these boards,I`ve come to realize,he`s right.(I`d hope I was one of the "Gifted" wannabes who could grade.Alot of dealer(wannabes)can`t grade well.
If anything,his inappropriate comments changed the way I feel about PCGS,as well as other grading companies.They are businesses managed and run by HUMANS.People make mistakes,AND,more importantly,some mistakes are made on purpose.
A dealer once asked me if I noticed any three-legged buffalos on the bourse,to which I replied,"...no,but I saw alot of two-legged jackasses..."
i think the dealers who really love the business/ hobby , and have been in it a long time do......i also think one can , not take the time to learn, pass it off onto the grading companies, you know let them do the work......whatever they say type of thinking.......i have seen many graded coins that were very overgraded......oh but you see thats when they were loose on thier grading standards.........i have also seen a few that were undergraded........bought them, waited a few months, and sure enough they up-graded them.........the best thing one can do is .....learn how to grade your coins.........maybe thats the problem............so many dont take the time to learn............
Someone once said that competitive sports don't build character but, they do reveal character. I think that also applies to coin dealers and their grading of coins.
I used to do a fair amount of business with a California dealer that specialized in rare date, type coins. A few years back I received 2 coins graded Good and valued at around 600 dollars combined. I returned the coins and offered to complete the purchase if the dealer would submit them for grading certification from a service of his choice and at my expense (PCGS, NGC, ANACS). I clearly didn't think they met the grade. The dealer submitted the coins and about 4 weeks later called me to say that they came back AG-3, but that he disagreed with the assigned grade and would not move on price...that if I wanted them at the original price he would ship them to me or just crack them out and resell them as G-4's.
Now, I have no problem with disagreements in the subjectivity of grading, nor do I find the grading services to be consistent in grading. However, I did learn something about this particular dealer and haven't even opened one of their monthly, mini brochures since.
There are still plenty of dealers buying one grade lower and selling one grade higher. I guess they still believe that if they own it, it's somehow more valuable. We've all met people like that.
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
<< <i>There are still plenty of dealers buying one grade lower and selling one grade higher. I guess they still believe that if they own it, it's somehow more valuable. We've all met people like that. >>
We used to call that "the two grade shuffle"
Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
<< <i>Yes, and I'll go one step further. Most people can't grade coins.
My suspicions are that to really grade coins well you need an IQ of over 125, excellent vision and at least three years experience messin' with coins.
The average person has an IQ of around 100. That fact alone, in my opinion, precludes most from ever learning how to grade.
Of course, grading is subjective, but there is an vein of objectivity about it. >>
............... to some degree of your statements i must agree, and disagree......... you must have great eye sight.........you dont need a high i.q. to grade coins..what you do need is years of experience looking at thousands of coins..........going to as many shows as possible, and most inportant....knowledge of the coins history as to how it was made........1793 coins, compared to walking liberty halves..........lincoln cents, vs, proof seated liberty coinage.......once you have a back ground...in what you are looking at. it becomes a lot easier...... and yes grading is subjective, but anyone can learn to tell the diffrence between a ms60 and a ms65 if they try to spend some time and learn.......
Really, you mean the David Halls, Larry Whitlows, Pinnacles of this world and many others just have a few bucks of their own in their case and most of it is collectors coins on consignement, baloney. There are a many dealers who sell for their collectors, but to make the statement that the big dealers don't own most of their inventory is an insult to them.
Yes, I agree, usually it's not all about the grade (neither objectively or subjectively) ... but it is all about the money.
For those of us brought up around board games, to me coins are a great game. I remember how "CLUE" was played with the popular strategy being to deceive and delay the other players as long as possible, to give oneself the edge. Seems like the coin and slab game are somewhat similar. Oh, well, at least it's only money at stake, not something important, like world peace.
I love dealing coins because it really is survival of the fittest. The bottom line is, in a market with a finite supply of unchanging(unless doctored) goods, you have to find ways to make money. I don't care how honest a dealer is, the bottom line is for every penny he makes, someone out there has lost a penny. There is no "value added" in this market. It is one big game of lies/opinions, with the plastic, chemicals, and dental tools making it all the more interesting.
"Anaconda is leading me to believe that high IQ corresponds with level of arrogance."
Good. At least you're learning.
Incidentally, with tongue now out of cheek, I don't talk about my IQ......ever. I never tell anyone what it is for the reasons I stated and also becaue i am much more than number.
I do though, think that IQ relates to the topic at hand. The topic at hand is can dealers grade? It's a question. I answered it and tried to support my answer.
I corrected myself to compliment all of us....we collectors and coin folk who like coins.
I may be arrogant but i wasn't trying to be. I was simply trying to tell you why i believe that most dealers can't grade.
By the way, i also never said i could grade, and i'm not saying that i can or can't. It's not germane to the topic at hand. Although, i think that recognizing beauty and value IS what i'm good at. Many low balling blue sheet thumping know it alls don't agree with me. That's OK. I'm not trying to be all numismatic things to all people.
Finally, I get called many things all the time. It's because i'm imperfect and transparently so. Love me or hate me, i am what i am and that's all that i am. ( to quote Popeye)
These days, its not really as important if YOU (or a dealer) can grade. Its really what the grading services decide are their standards for that time. I do know of a couple of rookie dealers who if they had to make a living submitting coins-forgettabout it! Thats the bad side of slabbing and the internet (fortunatley, I don't see it as a world class problem yet).
Lets face it, grading is nothing more than a subjective opinion formed by an individual. While there maybe grading standards that are acknowledged, there will always be variations among what EVERYONE will see. At least the services TRY to maintain a consistant approcah to check things in check.
I know I can grade most areas quite well, however there are a few areas (YES FRANKIES are included) that I know I can't grade so I avoid them or seek expert counsel if I must deal in them.
Laura Sperber
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
Adrian I was going to post, it is what it is referring to your personna. I for one get a lot of chuckles out of your comments. The most boring, arrogant meeting I ever went to was a mensa chapter meeting. What a fricking dullard. To me arrogance is pretending to be what you are not and having all the titles etc. but still full of hot air. Anaconda is what is it is. You haven't hit my offend or puketh button yet.
<< <i>These days, its not really as important if YOU (or a dealer) can grade. Its really what the grading services decide are their standards for that time. I do know of a couple of rookie dealers who if they had to make a living submitting coins-forgettabout it! Thats the bad side of slabbing and the internet (fortunatley, I don't see it as a world class problem yet).
Lets face it, grading is nothing more than a subjective opinion formed by an individual. While there maybe grading standards that are acknowledged, there will always be variations among what EVERYONE will see. At least the services TRY to maintain a consistant approcah to check things in check.
I know I can grade most areas quite well, however there are a few areas (YES FRANKIES are included) that I know I can't grade so I avoid them or seek expert counsel if I must deal in them. >>
..................................laura....i could not disagree with you more...........about that statement about it not being inportant if you can grade.......if thats the cast then the entire hobby has been hijacked by what the graders say.............i can tell a ms63 from a ms66...........if its not inportant that we know how to grade then we have all become slaves to thier numbers...........i respect them most of the time.i have also seen ms66 coins that were no way near what they say.........the most inportant thing a coin collector can do is to.....LEARN TO GRADE YOUR COINS....... other wise it like have a hook in your nose and being led around the numbers game...........
True or false, isn't the majority of value today created by what the grading services GRADE a coin? FACT: PCGS/NGC have OVER 12 MILLION coins certified to date. Why then do people submit to the services virtually ALL coins of substantial value?
So where are todays real standards generated? By the grading services. The grading services have made a science out of uniform grading.
Laura Sperber
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
Although, i think that recognizing beauty and value IS what i'm good at
adrian >>
...............yes i think you have a good eye for beauty from what i have seen..........however how will you know the value if you dont know how to grade...not saying you dont.......but to those people who dont know how to grade.then they become a slave to a number and a graysheet.....and if they cant grade how will they ever know the value? see.......i beleive one should know how to grade thier coins.......then they will know what the value is.
True or false, isn't the majority of value today created by what the grading services GRADE a coin? FACT: PCGS/NGC have OVER 12 MILLION coins certified to date. Why then do people submit to the services virtually ALL coins of substantial value?
So where are todays real standards generated? By the grading services. The grading services have made a science out of uniform grading. >>
................yes laura, i agree with you. the hobby/ business today is based on what they say.........but i still beleive any one who collects coins should learn how to grade thier coins.............
Comments
The ten coins were graded and were pretty average coins. The lighting in the room wasn't that great but we did this for fun. It was still an eye opener seeing the range of grades each coin received.
If you ever get a chance have a friend cover up some coins and grade them to see how you do. They don't have to be tricky coins but just average coins for the grade. I agree if you come within a point your doing pretty well. It's a great way to learn.
I would suggest that there is a percentage of folks who make quite a nice living by having strong grading capabilities. However, this skill is not required to be a successful coin dealer, although it does help if you have the skill. It is the difference between being a professional golfer, are you a club pro or a PGA professional? A club pro is still pretty good, but he earns his living a different way.
We also have to differentiate between the super eye graders and the folks who get it right pretty much most of the time. I would guess that even at the best shops, i.e. Legend, there is someone whose opinion on certain series carries more weight because of their eye.
i agree!
K S
Russ, NCNE
Most of the dealers at the local shows I attend couldn't grade an AU from a 63 or a 65 from a 66 etc. They aren't full time graders, they are dealers and I don't expect them to be the final word on grades.
Bingo!
We are ranging from Karl, who asserts that grading is merely assigning value to Anaconda, who's opinion is that most collectors are too unintelligent to learn how to grade. Apparently they are employing their own standards, and although they don't arrive at the same results, to me it's about as farfetched as THAT company employing its own standard and trying to imply it is "mainstream." (No offense intended to either of you)
My experience is that a great many of the "dealers" I've met are within the norm, with the main exception being that the assign a grade commensurate with the money they want to receive or spend, for the same coin.
Anaconda
Really don't know what kind of people you are dealing with to feel so poorly about people in general, but I find it hard to accept that the average person is as "limited" as you claim is your experience.
Folly!
Most of you guys have a tremendous amount of real world experience, much more than I (Joe average collector). But I've read quite a bit on the subject (ANA grading guide, PCGS grading guide, Photograde) and attended a three day ANA grading seminar. I've spent a lot of time (probably too many of hours) discussing this subject with many other collectors and dealers so I have some basis to comment.
The idea that coins can be consistently graded based on a floating set of standards that are not universally accepted and change somewhat depending on the series and in which subjective aspects have a significant bearing on the grade is ludicrous.
And the motivation for promoting that myth ... PROFIT.
So this discussion is an illustration of a dog chasing his tail.
I work a company that manufacturers electronic components. A tremendous amount of time is spent among industry organizations determine standards and tolerance for those standards. You can not have a conversation about accuracy and consistence UNTIL the standards have been established.
Before we can have an intelligent discussion about grading accuracy and consistency among dealers and collectors there first needs to be an agreed upon standard and someway to remove or reduce the influence of subjective factors.
<< <i>The average person has an IQ of around 100. That fact alone, in my opinion, precludes most from ever learning how to grade. >>
Hey, Anaconda! My IQ is 162; that fact alone, IMHO, precluded me from practicing law!!!!
MacCrimmon
i didn't realize i was amongst so many geniuses.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
take it from ... a non-genius
K S
However we Dealers don't just over grade we under grade also. I sold a raw 1911-D $2-1/2 indain to a collector as a XF/AU, he was afraid it was fake and asked me to send it in and have it authenticated.
Just got it back on friday NGC AU58
I need to learn to grade too.
One thing for sure my customers keep coming back, I used to think it was my personality. LOL
Www.killermarbles.com
Www.suncitycoin.com
<< <i>baccaruda, a monkey could get lucky & score a 150. it don't mean diddly. genius isn't a measure of how much brain power you have, but what you use it for
take it from ... a non-genius
K S >>
Exactly Karl, I waited for somebody to bash IQ before I added more about IQ. I have been labeled as a 143 IQ, and To me it's a load of crap. Yes, I am considered by my peers to be smarter than the average bear. In my case I feel its intuition, cosmic consciousness, right brain with a healthy dose of left brain, so on and so on. So how does IQ account for the right/left brain dominance or balance. Scientists still don't understand exactly how the brain processes information, let alone intuition, discernment, etc ("soul" or "spirit" qualities).
The problem with man is that we always have to categorize everything (My take of Adam and Eve in the garden, naming all the animals, etc) Some people are always going to be better at something, worse at something, average at something. David hall must be pretty good at something, what, I don't know all his talents, but he's pretty damn successful.
<< <i>David hall must be pretty good at something, >>
This Hepcat knows his 1950s Vocal group harmony!!! Oh yeah, he knows some about coins.... But I'll smoke him when it comes to Frankies!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Camelot
<< <i>I fiquere my IQ ranks up there with the grade of Type coins I like to collect 64 - 68.
Bear, I don't know what empirical number you might achieve from any given test, but you have always displayed WISDOM, and that is a true gift.
Another point. My family has lot's of Dyslexia, word retrieval problems, learning disabilities, etc. (usually associated with high IQ) My lil sis was actually labeled mentally retarded by the board of education she was under. At some point in her life, a non conformist teacher recognized some things, and got her straightened out. She graduated from college with numerous honors, 4.0 GPA, on a full blown scholarship. This should be a good example of how flawed the "system" is!
My wife will tell you my IQ is really about 75. The same as a chimp except she'll tell you I can't be trained as well. I can tie my own shoes and can drive a car. That's something.
Randy,
I don't want to start a ngc flame but you may have been one of those honest dealers that indeed know how to grade. Your XF/AU piece that came back NGC-58 makes me almost bet that coin is indeed an XF-45 at best!!
Something to think about as huge percentage of NGC stuff is overgraded by one point, IMHO
Marc
<< <i>However we Dealers don't just over grade we under grade also. I sold a raw 1911-D $2-1/2 indain to a collector as a XF/AU, he was afraid it was fake and asked me to send it in and have it authenticated.
Randy,
I don't want to start a ngc flame but you may have been one of those honest dealers that indeed know how to grade. Your XF/AU piece that came back NGC-58 makes me almost bet that coin is indeed an XF-45 at best!!
Something to think about as huge percentage of NGC stuff is overgraded by one point, IMHO
Marc >>
Marc: was Rick Montgomery over grading gold by one point when he was at PCGS or did he just start doing that when he left to go to work for NGC???????
Irish/ Mike,
Sorry, indeed so, I believe when he left to NGC !
NGC however is up there with PCGS but we all know serious grading is @PCGS. I don't care for any comments here to rebutt it all, I've heard it all - so whatever, everyone has his opinion, and its JMHO!!!!!!
Mike, if your as busy as I am, and I know you are lets get on to writing 1003's
Marc
i can see that. true IQ tests are all abstract thinking. you'll never see anything where numbers or memory are important. it's all based on how your mind relates sequences, patterns, and shapes.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
1 in 10 are very good,they are the ones you see at the show early scarfing up the RIPS from the other 9 below.These dealers for the most part do not deal with the public,instead they buy from the 9 below.On the other hand,many of these "dealers" do not sell to the public,instead, they sell to other dealers,or have "salespeople" do the "dirty work"!
3 in 10 are ok at grading,they do alright,picking up some RIPS now and then from other dealers, as well as making some goof-ups along the way.These dealers generally treat the public decently.
The other 6 do not have a clue,they rely on the expertise,or lack thereof,
At first,Homerunhall`s comments rubbed me the wrong way.After thinking about it the months since his comments hit these boards,I`ve come to realize,he`s right.(I`d hope I was one of the "Gifted" wannabes who could grade
If anything,his inappropriate comments changed the way I feel about PCGS,as well as other grading companies.They are businesses managed and run by HUMANS.People make mistakes,AND,more importantly,some mistakes are made on purpose.
<< <i>Anaconda is leading me to believe that high IQ corresponds with level of arrogance. >>
I concur.
I used to do a fair amount of business with a California dealer that specialized in rare date, type coins.
A few years back I received 2 coins graded Good and valued at around 600 dollars combined. I returned the coins and offered to complete the purchase if the dealer would submit them for grading certification from a service of his choice and at my expense (PCGS, NGC, ANACS). I clearly didn't think they met the grade. The dealer submitted the coins and about 4 weeks later called me to say that they came back AG-3, but that he disagreed with the assigned grade and would not move on price...that if I wanted them at the original price he would ship them to me or just crack them out and resell them as G-4's.
Now, I have no problem with disagreements in the subjectivity of grading, nor do I find the grading services to be consistent in grading. However, I did learn something about this particular dealer and haven't even opened one of their monthly, mini brochures since.
There are still plenty of dealers buying one grade lower and selling one grade higher. I guess they still believe that if they own it, it's somehow more valuable. We've all met people like that.
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
Thomas Paine
<< <i>There are still plenty of dealers buying one grade lower and selling one grade higher. I guess they still believe that if they own it, it's somehow more valuable. We've all met people like that. >>
We used to call that "the two grade shuffle"
is nothing more then an adroit, urbane and analytical mind. Furthermore, I agree with the statements
made by the Anaconda as being an accurate reflection of reality.I see nothing condescending in any
of the big snakes statements. His views on this subject seemed right on the money. If you guys dont
agree with me, then I intend to hold my breath untill I bust.
Camelot
<< <i>Yes, and I'll go one step further. Most people can't grade coins.
My suspicions are that to really grade coins well you need an IQ of over 125, excellent vision and at least three years experience messin'
with coins.
The average person has an IQ of around 100. That fact alone, in my opinion, precludes most from ever learning how to grade.
Of course, grading is subjective, but there is an vein of objectivity about it. >>
............... to some degree of your statements i must agree, and disagree......... you must have great eye sight.........you dont need a high i.q. to grade coins..what you do need is years of experience looking at thousands of coins..........going to as many shows as possible, and most inportant....knowledge of the coins history as to how it was made........1793 coins, compared to walking liberty halves..........lincoln cents, vs, proof seated liberty coinage.......once you have a back ground...in what you are looking at. it becomes a lot easier...... and yes grading is subjective, but anyone can learn to tell the diffrence between a ms60 and a ms65 if they try to spend some time and learn.......
Yes, I agree, usually it's not all about the grade (neither objectively or subjectively) ... but it is all about the money.
For those of us brought up around board games, to me coins are a great game. I remember how "CLUE" was played with the popular strategy being to deceive and delay the other players as long as possible, to give oneself the edge. Seems like the coin and slab game are somewhat similar. Oh, well, at least it's only money at stake, not something important, like world peace.
Good. At least you're learning.
Incidentally, with tongue now out of cheek, I don't talk about my IQ......ever. I never tell anyone what it is for the reasons I stated and also becaue i am much more than number.
I do though, think that IQ relates to the topic at hand. The topic at hand is can dealers grade? It's a question. I answered it and tried to support my answer.
I corrected myself to compliment all of us....we collectors and coin folk who like coins.
I may be arrogant but i wasn't trying to be. I was simply trying to tell you why i believe that most dealers can't grade.
By the way, i also never said i could grade, and i'm not saying that i can or can't. It's not germane to the topic at hand. Although, i think that recognizing beauty and value IS what i'm good at. Many low balling blue sheet thumping know it alls don't agree with me. That's OK. I'm not trying to be all numismatic things to all people.
Finally, I get called many things all the time. It's because i'm imperfect and transparently so. Love me or hate me, i am what i am and that's all that i am. ( to quote Popeye)
adrian
Lets face it, grading is nothing more than a subjective opinion formed by an individual. While there maybe grading standards that are acknowledged, there will always be variations among what EVERYONE will see. At least the services TRY to maintain a consistant approcah to check things in check.
I know I can grade most areas quite well, however there are a few areas (YES FRANKIES are included) that I know I can't grade so I avoid them or seek expert counsel if I must deal in them.
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
adrian
If you can't solve it, you can't grade coins worth squat.
<< <i>These days, its not really as important if YOU (or a dealer) can grade. Its really what the grading services decide are their standards for that time. I do know of a couple of rookie dealers who if they had to make a living submitting coins-forgettabout it! Thats the bad side of slabbing and the internet (fortunatley, I don't see it as a world class problem yet).
Lets face it, grading is nothing more than a subjective opinion formed by an individual. While there maybe grading standards that are acknowledged, there will always be variations among what EVERYONE will see. At least the services TRY to maintain a consistant approcah to check things in check.
I know I can grade most areas quite well, however there are a few areas (YES FRANKIES are included) that I know I can't grade so I avoid them or seek expert counsel if I must deal in them. >>
..................................laura....i could not disagree with you more...........about that statement about it not being inportant if you can grade.......if thats the cast then the entire hobby has been hijacked by what the graders say.............i can tell a ms63 from a ms66...........if its not inportant that we know how to grade then we have all become slaves to thier numbers...........i respect them most of the time.i have also seen ms66 coins that were no way near what they say.........the most inportant thing a coin collector can do is to.....LEARN TO GRADE YOUR COINS....... other wise it like have a hook in your nose and being led around the numbers game...........
True or false, isn't the majority of value today created by what the grading services GRADE a coin? FACT: PCGS/NGC have OVER 12 MILLION coins certified to date. Why then do people submit to the services virtually ALL coins of substantial value?
So where are todays real standards generated? By the grading services. The grading services have made a science out of uniform grading.
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
Although, i think that recognizing beauty and value IS what i'm good at
adrian >>
...............yes i think you have a good eye for beauty from what i have seen..........however how will you know the value if you dont know how to grade...not saying you dont.......but to those people who dont know how to grade.then they become a slave to a number and a graysheet.....and if they cant grade how will they ever know the value? see.......i beleive one should know how to grade thier coins.......then they will know what the value is.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
"i'm not saying that i can or can't..."
adrian
<< <i>Classics,
True or false, isn't the majority of value today created by what the grading services GRADE a coin? FACT: PCGS/NGC have OVER 12 MILLION coins certified to date. Why then do people submit to the services virtually ALL coins of substantial value?
So where are todays real standards generated? By the grading services. The grading services have made a science out of uniform grading. >>
................yes laura, i agree with you. the hobby/ business today is based on what they say.........but i still beleive any one who collects coins should learn how to grade thier coins.............