Are we raising a new generation of slab collectors
IrishMike
Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
I read the posts of some of the younger collectors and it seems that they have been "hooked" into the slab game. Not bashing slabs mind you, but the $10-$100 coins that end up in them. Will the new, younger collectors see this hobby as one of collecting grades or coins?
Can you see a nice coin posted here without wondering what the grade is?
Can you see a nonPCGS coin posted here without wondering if it would cross?
Do you go to a coin show and only look at coins graded by one or two services?
Do you remember what slabs the coins were in, that you examined but didn't buy?
Do pass by a dealer who only sold raw or ANACS coins?
Have you ever collected varieties?
These are just a few questions I would like to ask new collectors, nothing wrong with collecting what you want, but I wonder if they are missing out on some very important aspects of our hobby.
Can you see a nice coin posted here without wondering what the grade is?
Can you see a nonPCGS coin posted here without wondering if it would cross?
Do you go to a coin show and only look at coins graded by one or two services?
Do you remember what slabs the coins were in, that you examined but didn't buy?
Do pass by a dealer who only sold raw or ANACS coins?
Have you ever collected varieties?
These are just a few questions I would like to ask new collectors, nothing wrong with collecting what you want, but I wonder if they are missing out on some very important aspects of our hobby.
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Comments
Can you see a coin you don't like the "look" of and not buy it, rather than buy it and try to fix the "look" of it." Meaning, cleaning or conserve said coin?
Most coins in my collection are not in slabs- I believe I have just more than one PCGS box of them... about 25 or so in total. Now, you will ask what is in these slabs?
I do have a few modern coins that I bought at their raw price, so why not get them in a slab? Now they can be in a registry set- I didn't lose out on the submission, someone else did.
The two coins for which I have paid the most money, are also both in slabs- a 1938-D MS66 Buff 5c, and a 1945 MS64 Walker. My eye is not yet good enough to see the slight problems a coin may have, and the grading gave me assurance that I wasn't missing anything when I bought the coin. Furthermore, these coins tend to go for the same price raw or slabbed (as I saw in a coin shop today) so why not get it with the assurance at basically no extra charge?
When money permits, I have no problem buying raw or slabbed- if I don't like a coin, I won't buy it at all... for example I need an MS washington for my reg set. I don't really like how the clads look, but the SMS coins have a pull for me- I would probably buy an SMS just because... I can get them cheap (at or around the cost of grading) so there isn't, in my opinion, a reason to NOT buy it slabbed... it's a win win.
Jeremy
At least the Good Guy has come around to phase one-- realizing PCGS isn't the Alpha and Omega of coins. Now if we can just nudge him past slabs all together...
Obscurum per obscurius
I started with slabs and but now have also started collecting raw coins for albums as well. A certain percentage of coins will be slabbed, but you just can't beat the beauty of an album full of coins.
There are also coins that I want to collect that I just couldn't afford in a slab. Eventually, I want to put together a US Type Set, raw. That's going to be expensive enough, if I tried to do it with higher end slab coins, I could never finish it.
Slabs can act as the shallow wnd of the numismatic pool for some and also help teach new colectors a lot about coins (grading, strike, luster, toning) as well as a certain series. For the most part I think as one becomes more experienced, the dependency on slabs diminishes, as well as the need to just look at and buy PCGS or NGC coins.
Michael
MW Fattorosi Collection
2. No
3. Yes I do look mainly at PCGS, NGC, and ANACS... but if i saw a very nice coin slabbed by a differant company and i agreed on the grade i would still buy it.
4. Yes i do, I dont really care but yes i remember
5. No
6. No
Do you pass on a raw coin becasue of a small defect that may cause the coin not to be slabbed?
I think the new collectors are mixed when it comes to slabs. It all depends on who started them in the hobby and who helped them through as their cllecting interest changed. Many of the YN's that I know don't like slabs and don't buy them. Talking with them, I have found that t was usually an older collector in their coin club that has helped them through.
On my part, I have talked with alot of dealers and graders, many of which I see on a regular basis at shows. Slabs feed them and as a result it came over to me seeing what they have for sale and what they talk amongst themselves. Believ it or not, Strat told me at the 2000 CSNA convention that I should get into slabs as a buyer and seller. I took his advise.
Cameron Kiefer
1. yes, love seeing new coins
2. yes, wondered on a few of them though, I'm sure a lot have
3. Normally don't have time for coin shows, but that's the only chance I get to examine some high quality raw coins
4. Yes, saw a PCI proof 70 coin that I thought people would laugh at.
5. Nope, but I've never bought an ANACS coin yet.
6. Not yet.
I'm not even gonna touch the cleaning question... that's booby trapped
Working 90 hours a week makes it tough to go to a show or attend a grading class. I don't feel that my grading ability is anywhere near enough to purchase some of the more valuable raw coins. Slabbed coins give me a little more confidence in my purchase and also let me learn more on the grading scale. So maybe as such I am collecting by the grade a bit, to learn. I'm still young have lots of time to pursue this, why risk some finacial mistake early in the game that could hurt me later?
I guess the other question for you is if that coin is in a PCGS holder do you think how fast you can break it out?
If it is taken into consideration in the price, you like the coin, and you don't plan to add it to a set registry, go ahead and get it. I got a great deal on a rare coin with a lightly cleaned obverse. Since it only cost me about 1/4th to 1/3rd the price it would have been without the defect and I couldn't find another one anywhere, I think I got a great deal. I bought it realizing I'd have a hard time selling it, and I plan to keep it.
Obscurum per obscurius
1) The reason that Coin Collecting does not have a larger following is that once you decide to participate, the first thing you are taught is you shouldn’t play until you are an expert yourself. It is so dangerous out there that unless you have years of experience you are bound to be burned. Every time I pick up a book or magazine I am told to beware of getting ripped off. I do love to read and do research. But most collectors want to learn as they collect, not study for several years before they get to play.
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2) Over Graded coins by dishonest dealers/sellers are the scourge of the hobby. Unfortunately these dealers and sellers have created a system that works against the new collector.
3) The publications and organizations only pretend to care if associated dealers are dishonest. I subscribe to Numismatic News and Coins Magazine. Early on I purchased raw coins from some of Krause’s major advertisers (all ANA members). Reputable Magazines, Reputable Dealers, and Reputable Associations--Wrong!!!!!!!!!
4) Most Third Party Grading Services are not really independent. Only a few actually care about the actual grade of the coin. Too many services exist to allow sellers to deceive buyers with inflated grades. Dealers that utilize these deceitful grading companies are at fault for their existence. It is easy to blame the services but they are only providing a service apparently in great demand. This is a very frightening commentary on the industry.
5) Due to my level of expertise at this time I will only purchase coins certified by PCGS or NGC. I own hundreds of coins in PCGS(80%), NGC(15%), ICG(4%), & ANACS(1%) holders. I love them all. I collect not as an investment but for the enjoyment. However, I am very aware of the market value of each. No doubt that the market has more faith in the accuracy of PCGS and NGC.
I have learned tons over the past three years and comparing slabs has been most helpful in learning to grade. Just lurking around here for the past month has been extremely beneficial (Thanks). I must say that I am now probably ready to take the bold step into looking beyond slabs, but without having the many years of experience and knowledge that so many of you hold-- I still feel that I will be a target-- atleast now I will be a moving target and not just a sitting duck.
Clankeye
I die. To give you perspective. I have taken the ANA grading correspondence courses and many
professional graders are personal friends. The plastic is nice, but the coin counts more, except in
the case of ACG, where the plastic totally condems a coin. I will still buy PCI and ICG if the coin is
exceptional and it is a bargain.
Brian.
Thank you for the kind words.
Besides a true slabbed coin is one that is stapled around the coin.
"The silver is mine and the gold is mine,' declares the LORD GOD Almighty."
Being "hooked" on slabs is not such a bad thing. Think back to the pre slab days and how more often people got taken on coins. I know as a kid {40+yrs ago} I was sold a bunch of "Ch BU" coins for what was alot of money back then, even for an adult, and these coins when slabbed a few years ago were all XF-Au55. Who knew? Well not me as I did not spend hours looking at coins but the dealer sure did and if he did not then he was incompetent.
Slabbing has removed a big slice of the sleeze factor in coin dealing, passing off inferior coins as something better. I have said for years, if a high end coin is NOT in a top tier slab, there is a good reason. Many will argue otherwise but look at how many dealers buy raw to only turn around and slap it into a slab. If you are spending serious money {10k+} on a coin and are a hobbyist and not an expert grader will your trust your grading skills? What will you do when it's time to sell that high end piece? Argue with the dealer / buyer that is really is a MS68 and not a MS65?
As for the slabbers, I say stick to the top 2. Sure there are some legitimate ones in other holders but again, why an ICG and not NGC? Why a PCI and not a PCGS? Don't tell me the slabbing fee when having the better service adds xx% to the sales price. The truth is the coin probably was BBed by the services or a lower grade was bestowed.
Finally, the slab game is a direct result of the greed and dishonesty of the coin dealers. The market place was ripe for the service after decades of rip offs. Now people can rest assured their coins have a gaurantee of a sorts and a professinal set of eyes has given them a better idea of the condition of the coin they are buying.
<< <i>The reason that Coin Collecting does not have a larger following is that once you decide to participate, the first thing you are taught is you shouldn’t play until you are an expert yourself. It is so dangerous out there that unless you have years of experience you are bound to be burned. Every time I pick up a book or magazine I am told to beware of getting ripped off. I do love to read and do research. But most collectors want to learn as they collect, not study for several years before they get to play. >>
Excellent point, FatMan, and one that I haven't thought about since I've been a collector since pre-slab days.
Slabs from reputable companies are great for guaranteeing authenticity and are very valuable at protecting new collectors from buying counterfeit and altered coins. Perhaps experienced collectors do have a tendency to alarm newbies about jumping in with both feet and an open wallet. No one wants to see someone spend serious money on coins and later find out they either bought junk or overpaid tremendously. When that happens, most times the person is lost to the hobby forever. And we hate when that happens.
I can certainly understand how a well-intentioned warning could be interpreted as a mandate to stay away until you become an expert. I myself have said "buy the book before the coin" many, many times. If slabs allow you to enjoy the hobby with increased confidence, then that's great.
You still have to deal with the risk of paying too much, buying at the top of the market, and to a lesser extent buying an overgraded coin, but at least you can be reasonably sure a slabbed coin is authentic.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Cameron Kiefer
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Not bashing slabs mind you >>
Why not? I do it all the time. A sledgehammer is quite good.
Sledge-hammer's Union Unite!!!
Oh..EE..Oh........Yooooh...Hoh!
jom
<< <i>So how should we bring up the YN's? Teach them about slabs or not? >>
Teach YN's about grading first. Use slabs as examples/references of good and bad grading, as one can see the entire good to bad range in various slabs. There is no substitute for grading skills. My fear is that unless YN's learn about grading a coin, it will end up being the same type of deal were YP's (young persons) can't do simple math without a calculator, write a grammatically correct sentence, or spell a relatively simple word without using a word processor's spell/grammar check. YN's should not be "slab dependent".
Andy
First POTD 9/19/05!!
Of course teach them about slabs. The pros and cons, but most of all, and I am tired of defending "coin encapsulation" but it is a point hardly anyone ever seems to make, so I'll make it again.
I think I have a pretty good idea how to grade and most of the pros and cons of BUYING slabbed coins, but, it is also MY PREFERRED METHOD OF PRESERVATION. Yes, I like displaying raw coins, but I also would like them to remain as they are at least until I pass them on to someone else. The results of the various album storage methods sometimes produced acceptable (sometimes desirable) results, but mostly they contaminate with particles, glue or other adhesives, ungodly toning. We learned that most soft plastic holders aren't great for long term storage. Yes there are the Capital plastics, cointains and few others, and even the "intercept" holders, but, just like the 2 x 2s, whitmans, danscos, etc they still have to be time tested.
I can't argue with any of your concerns, but I wish more folks would acknowledge that there are benefits to buying slabbed and slabbing coins other than a grade number, or insecurity about grading, or resale or incompetency.
Some of us old grumpy hardcore collectors like slabs too!
Because in the right company's holder it's a good safety net when buying coins online, especially high priced ones. I would buy $5,000 raw coin from anybody as long as I saw it first but not from somebody I didn't know on eBay.
<< <i>
<< <i>So how should we bring up the YN's? Teach them about slabs or not? >>
>>
Many of the newbies are coming up by way of the moderns and to some extent there
are not as many of these problems with the moderns. Most are inexpensive enough that
slabbing isn't even necessary. There are very few AU or sliders so there is little risk of
confusing a circ with an unc. Collections can be put together from pocket change and
much can be learned about grading and the nuts and bolts of collecting before any sub-
stantial funds are involved. As collectors work on upgrading and expanding their collec-
tions they will be exposed to slabs and will already already have some knowledge of not
only grading but the actual look of the coins.
We do need to retain more of the states quarter collectors and the most effective way is
going to be to encourage them. Not encourage them to pay large amounts for any slab,
but encourage them to pursue their collection and their "education". The last thing we
need to be doing is to always be warning them about the charlatans and pitfalls in the
hobby. The best consul is to go slow and learn, make low cost purchases until confidence
is gained, and to sell some coins on occasion so one knows the true costs of his hobby.
WOrkig on those few tough Morgan Dollars - I came across an 01-S in an SEGS slab, graded AU-50. I bought it for $71.00, half the AU bid. I received the coin a few days ago, and it's a low end AU - which is what I bargained for, and paid much less for. I took the coin to a local shop today and the dealer told me to just pop it out and place it in my album. I have a somewhat vintage set of Morgan Albums, which ae the ones my Dad and I started 40 years ago, and I have been hesitant not to use these.
Mr Slab Buyer (that would be me) figues - this coin is going to grade AU seven or eight times out of ten, and I am hesitant to remove it from this value enhacing vehicle in which it rides, as it retains it's highest value as it sits now.
I have about 30 slabbed coins, and about 7000 raw coins, so I am by no means hooked on slabs, but I can't help but fall into the trap of the slab has set the value as opposed to the coin speaking for itself.
In this case however, I am afraid if the coin could talk, it would sound like Gomer Pyle, as opposed to singing like Jim Nabors in the slab.
<< <i>in the right company's holder it's a good safety net when buying coins online, especially high priced ones. I would buy $5,000 raw coin from anybody as long as I saw it first but not from somebody I didn't know on eBay. >>
bingo!
Michael's Quote: Ask yourself this question each and every time you attempt to buy a slabbed coin, and honestly answer it. "Would I pay the same amount for the same coin if it were out of the holder?"
What a wonderfully simplistic, yet sound and true statement that is! To me, applying Michael's quote to your purchases is the best "lesson" for anyone in numismatics.
I have been collecting for about 5 years and I didn't know of slabs until about a year ago (I had one slab at that time, but didn't know the it as anything else but a holder). For my registry set I (obviously) have to have PCGS slabs for each coin, but I have yet to buy a coin just because of a number or because of the slab. I only buy coins that look nice to me and I don't go for the whole "population rarities." I know when I finish my set I wont be first, but who cares. I currently have liquidated a lot of my raw coins to fuel my registry sets, and when I'm done with my next ebay run I will have no more raw coins excepting a few nice circulated toned coins and a bunch of modern stuff that I later want to put into intercept shield alblums. Besides these and my world coins and bullions and proof sets, I have all slabs. I like them because they seem like a nice way to keep your coins together, they are very stackable, and they are all uniform. That is why I like them. I collect coins, but I also like to have my coins presentable in nice holders.
-Jarrett Roberts
P.S. - It is 3:00AM and I am rambling just so you know, incase I said something strange above.
<< <i>He paid about $30-$50 a piece because those where the days when the Hunts ( Ketchup and Tomato Paste fame ) where trying to corner the market. >>
Lest anyone starts boycotting the ketchup or tomato paste.....I believe it was Nelson and Bunker Hunt from Dallas (of oil and gas fame) who tried to corner the market. I am forever indebted to Nelson and Bunker. At the wonderful age of ten I took my life savings (and my parents life savings) and bought junk silver at 3.5 times face. When the price reached about $40 an ounce...I sold at 20 times face. My only regret was that there was about a six month backlog at the smelters, so the industry would only pay 20 times face rather than the 34 times which represented the real value of the silver in the coins. When the price went on up further to $50 an ounce, they still were only paying 20 times face. I should have bought bars....oh well...it still ended up paying for the college of a poor welders son.
Yes, that ridiculous incident cost a lot of folks a lot of money. But you must remember that for everyone that bought at $40-$50 an ounce...someone sold at $40-$50 an ounce. This is a good lesson when thinking about Enron etc. For every buyer that has lost everything there are many sellers that made a bundle.
Not that it is certainly going to happen and not that they aren't great values (please don't hurt me Cladking), but if the modern trend is a bubble that busts and prices collapse.....there will still be a lot of sellers that made a lot of money on buyers that will lose a lot of money.
Life's lesson: Don't be afraid to ride the wave as you only live once and the rewards can be great, but make dang sure you hop off before the wave hits the beach.
P.S. Please don't hurt me Cladking, I really do believe it's okay to collect anything that makes you happy as long as you have no problem if the price tanks. As long as CCR's dad enjoyed collecting those $30 Morgans, I'm sure the the $25 loss had no impact on his enjoyment of the hobby and he is a better and avid collector today. I know that sounds smart aleck which is really not the true intent. And for sure, the experienced collectors don't need to hear about what "could" happen....but the inexperienced collectors have a right to hear the collective wisdom that so many of our experienced colleagues are willing to share on this forum.
And, if nine out of ten folks on the forum think that there could be a problem; then there will probably be about nine times as many expressions of concern versus expressions of non-concern. That's not bashing...that's just the natural level of activity when people feel free to express their feelings.
Finally, modern coins are wonderful, modern coins may be underpriced...modern coins have sky-rocketed in price recently, modern coin prices may pop some day....modern coin prices may not pop some day. That's not bashing...just an honest expression of concern based upon my gratifying experience of a previous bubble and CCR's dad's different experience with the same bubble.
Edited to get the right dad.
For the most part I wasn`t trying to blow off steam; that wasn`t my intention and after rereading what I wrote it can easyily be looked at at that angle. The subconscious takes over sometimes. My intention was to point out that there was and still is a need for the average collector an impartial party to offer a professional opinion ( other then a dealer ) on a grade of a coin. The ability to grade for yourself is still a must not only for your pocket book, for those who approch it from that angle, but also it develops an appreciation of what you have. In the end I`m collecting coins now and the kicker is that I have a fetish for Morgans and Peace dollars. My 1879-s MS66 is my pride and joy. In the end, I hope to just relax and enjoy this hobby.
PS Hunts - I love your Tomato products.
I hate it when you see my post before I can edit the spelling.
Always looking for nice type coins
my local dealer
Our resident YN asked me to read this last night. I'm like 90% done with this thread, and feel that I can comment...
As much as I dislike slabs, I think it would be a terrible disservice to ignore the huge positives that reputable 3rd-party grading services bring to this hobby. Yes, we all can cite negative examples. To be fair, let's all remember that they also do a lot of good.
Someone mentioned that we can use slabs to educate the YN's and newbies about the variances in grading. That's an excellent idea. That will show that reputable services can be used as a crutch, but that the crutch has practical limitations.
Another important aspect to get across to YN's and newbies is how to discern amongst the various services. IMO, there are two main aspects that define a service's reputation: how close is that service's grading to market norms; and, how good is that service's warranty?
Now, after all this, I would love to look at raw piles of bust coinage that are laid out and scattered across my jeweler's tray! And, if they weren't so expensive, I'd do a Demi Moore on my bed with them!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
For a relatively small investment one can collect many different series and learn about them as you go. It's also a less expensive way to make mistakes. I am sure there are others like me that have experienced buying slabbed coins from different venues, other than in person that were disappointing coins. Now when I go to a show I am mostly oblivious to what slab or grade on the slab the coin has. Eye appeal and strike have become the over-riding considerations to me, along with rarity for 19th and 18th century coins.
The only time I think about crossovers is IHC's and coins that I think can be cracked out, conserved and reholdered. I have started to collect coins that I feel can be professionally conserved, not to make money, but to preserve them for the next generation of collectors.
moderns could crash today. If it were to occur it would look like it had been a
bubble and the naysayers would have been right all along. BUT, some of those
slamming the moderns consistently fail to recognize or differentiate among the
huge number and variety of the moderns. Many of these coins are priced at ab-
surdly low levels. Some of the mint sets are available for 5% over face value. These
are decades old sets which contain some high grade coins which exist no where
else. If these crash today, how much is one going to lose on them? There are rare
coins in circulation available for face value. How much lower can these go. There are
commems and bullion coins with tiny mintages which sell for double or triple melt.
There are coins like the 83-P quarter with fewer surviving uncs than the total number
of 16-D dimes which Krause lists for $5. (they're hardly available at this price though)
Just how low can these coins go? When one factors in the burgeoning number of
new collectors it becomes difficult to even imagine a price decrease.
There are many thousands of moderns in slabs now and many of these do bring high
prices. These coins got into slabs solely due to the growing interest in these coins.
They've been around for many years and no one slabbed them before because no
matter how low a price were put on them they would NOT have sold. Now there are
many people updating their sets past 1964 and finding the coins are generally easily
found. There are many dates though which are not so easily found in the nice choice
condition in which most collectors desire their coins. They are finding horribly struck
and disfigured coins for the main part. It is not too surprising that a few collectors
have gotten ahead of the curve and begun seeking the finest possible quality. This
demand is well ahead of the currently available supply and is pushing prices up to levels
which in some cases rivals the classic rarities. Will this market crash? Well, that's anyones
guess, but it would seem to be unlikely to crash in it's totality until the number of new
collectors ceases to grow. It would seem to require the reversal of several trends.
I can hardly believe it's really good for the hobby to constantly warn newbies about
the pitfalls and charlatans. It's one thing to point them out, but it's entirely another
when this is almost the only message being sent. We need to encourage newbies
and in some cases these people are buying slabs. The dangers of slabs are myriad
and manifold, and it seems improbable that containing a clad coin would be the only
or even the most serious problem with a slab.
By the same token let's remember that it's the slab itself which has ended some of
the worst abuse in the hobby.
typos and spelling
Michael's Quote: Ask yourself this question each and every time you attempt to buy a slabbed coin, and honestly answer it. "Would I pay the same amount for the same coin if it were out of the holder?"
No, I'll pay more, because I can get more if I decide to sell it. I try to limit the premium to about 5%-10%.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
roadrunner
Slabs don't guarantee value if you overpay for them or purchase coins in the slab that are low quality for the grade.