Why no NGC coins in the PCGS Registry
homerunhall
Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭
Several of you have asked why PCGS does not allow NGC coins in the PCGS Registry. Here goes...
The Registry was launched to give serious collectors of high end coins a place to have fun with their collections, keep track of their sets, and compare and compete with other collectors. The compare and compete part of the process makes in essential that only PCGS coins be registered. Coins graded by other services are not necessarily graded by the same standards so the compare and compete part doesn't work between services.
Let's take NGC...They have slightly looser grading standards than PCGS. Here's some cold hard evidence of that fact. If you compare Population Report figures, you'll find some clear indications of the differences. I've used the figures from the October, 2002 PCGS Population Report. The most recent NGC Census I have is April, 2002, though figures from the latest are undoubtedly very similar (maybe someone can supply those.) And by the way, I'm sitting here with a hand held calculator and I'm pretty beat, so if there's any mistakes, please don't skewer me too bad. I did check all the numbers twice.
Let's look at some very high submission gold coins.
$10 Libs (with motto) PCGS has graded 111,799 $10 Libs of which 1060 or 0.9% are MS65 or better. NGC has graded 112,893 $10 Libs of which 1681 or 1.5% are MS 65 or better. NGC is 1.67 times as likely to grade a $10 Lib MS65 or better than PCGS, i.e. NGC is 67% looser, i.e you get 67% more MS65 or better $10 Libs from NGC as you do from PCGS.
$10 Indians - PCGS has graded 75,071 $10 Indians of which 1501 or 2.0% are MS65 or better. NGC has graded 57,445 $10 indians of which 2266 or 3.9% are MS65 or better. NGC is 95% looser than PCGS on $10 Indians.
$20 Libs (Type 3) PCGS has graded 241,087 $20 Libs of which 1993 or 0.8% are MS65 or better. NGC has graded 313,534 $20 Libs of which 4692 or 1.5% are MS65 or better. NGC is 87% looser on $20 Libs than PCGS.
$20 Saints (with motto) PCGS has graded 376,881 with motto Saints of which 24,012 or 6.3% are MS65 or better. NGC has graded 445,000 Saints of which 48,150 or 10.8% are MS65 or better. NGC is 71% looser than PCGS on with motto Saints. If you add the no mottos the numbers are closer, though NGC is clearly looser. The numbers are closer because of all the fabulous 1908 no mottos that both services graded when the big hoard came out in 1998.
Here's one Bruce might find interesting. Trade dollars!
PCGS has graded 4811 circulation strike Trade dollars of which 701 or 14.6% are MS64 or better and 137 or 2.8% are MS65 or better. NGC has graded 2887 of which 638 or 22.1% are MS64 or better and 156 or 5.4% are MS65 or better. NGC is clearly looser. And remember the PCGS numbers on the MS65 or betters are skewed a little to the high side because of all of Bruce's great coins.
For Proof Trade dollars PCGS has graded 3449 coins of which 1392 or 40.4% are PR64 or better and 495 or 14.4% are PR65 or better. NGC has graded 2602 proof Trade dollars of which 1668 or 64.1% are PR64 or better and 707 or 27.2% are PR65 or better. NGC is clearly looser on proof Trade dollars.
For modern coins the comparisons of the 69 and 70 grades is even more dramatic. The most extreme example is the 2000 $5 gold eagle. If I read the NGC Census Report right, they have graded 5299 MS69 and 6941 MS70, i.e they have graded more MS70s than MS69s!!!!!!!!!! For that coin, PCGS has graded only 9 examples MS70.
There are lots of other examples of this difference between PCGS and NGC MS69s and MS70s.
You can also look at the now hotly collected 20th Century Registry sets. Compare the Pops...there's a big difference in the standards.
If NGC coins were allowed in the PCGS Set Registry it would not be fair to those participants who only had PCGS coins in their sets as their sets would be compared to other sets that had coins in them that were graded by the looser NGC standards. And it wouldn't be fair financially either. For modern coins, as an example, you can usually buy NGC 70s for a lot less than PCGS 70s.
All of the above is the major reason why only PCGS coins are allowed in the PCGS Set Registry. While we admittedly also have some strong competitive reasons for have an exclusive PCGS Set Registry (and NGC has a strong competitive need to allow PCGS coins in its Registry), the most important reason of all for the exclusivity is the fairness to the participants.
David Hall
The Registry was launched to give serious collectors of high end coins a place to have fun with their collections, keep track of their sets, and compare and compete with other collectors. The compare and compete part of the process makes in essential that only PCGS coins be registered. Coins graded by other services are not necessarily graded by the same standards so the compare and compete part doesn't work between services.
Let's take NGC...They have slightly looser grading standards than PCGS. Here's some cold hard evidence of that fact. If you compare Population Report figures, you'll find some clear indications of the differences. I've used the figures from the October, 2002 PCGS Population Report. The most recent NGC Census I have is April, 2002, though figures from the latest are undoubtedly very similar (maybe someone can supply those.) And by the way, I'm sitting here with a hand held calculator and I'm pretty beat, so if there's any mistakes, please don't skewer me too bad. I did check all the numbers twice.
Let's look at some very high submission gold coins.
$10 Libs (with motto) PCGS has graded 111,799 $10 Libs of which 1060 or 0.9% are MS65 or better. NGC has graded 112,893 $10 Libs of which 1681 or 1.5% are MS 65 or better. NGC is 1.67 times as likely to grade a $10 Lib MS65 or better than PCGS, i.e. NGC is 67% looser, i.e you get 67% more MS65 or better $10 Libs from NGC as you do from PCGS.
$10 Indians - PCGS has graded 75,071 $10 Indians of which 1501 or 2.0% are MS65 or better. NGC has graded 57,445 $10 indians of which 2266 or 3.9% are MS65 or better. NGC is 95% looser than PCGS on $10 Indians.
$20 Libs (Type 3) PCGS has graded 241,087 $20 Libs of which 1993 or 0.8% are MS65 or better. NGC has graded 313,534 $20 Libs of which 4692 or 1.5% are MS65 or better. NGC is 87% looser on $20 Libs than PCGS.
$20 Saints (with motto) PCGS has graded 376,881 with motto Saints of which 24,012 or 6.3% are MS65 or better. NGC has graded 445,000 Saints of which 48,150 or 10.8% are MS65 or better. NGC is 71% looser than PCGS on with motto Saints. If you add the no mottos the numbers are closer, though NGC is clearly looser. The numbers are closer because of all the fabulous 1908 no mottos that both services graded when the big hoard came out in 1998.
Here's one Bruce might find interesting. Trade dollars!
PCGS has graded 4811 circulation strike Trade dollars of which 701 or 14.6% are MS64 or better and 137 or 2.8% are MS65 or better. NGC has graded 2887 of which 638 or 22.1% are MS64 or better and 156 or 5.4% are MS65 or better. NGC is clearly looser. And remember the PCGS numbers on the MS65 or betters are skewed a little to the high side because of all of Bruce's great coins.
For Proof Trade dollars PCGS has graded 3449 coins of which 1392 or 40.4% are PR64 or better and 495 or 14.4% are PR65 or better. NGC has graded 2602 proof Trade dollars of which 1668 or 64.1% are PR64 or better and 707 or 27.2% are PR65 or better. NGC is clearly looser on proof Trade dollars.
For modern coins the comparisons of the 69 and 70 grades is even more dramatic. The most extreme example is the 2000 $5 gold eagle. If I read the NGC Census Report right, they have graded 5299 MS69 and 6941 MS70, i.e they have graded more MS70s than MS69s!!!!!!!!!! For that coin, PCGS has graded only 9 examples MS70.
There are lots of other examples of this difference between PCGS and NGC MS69s and MS70s.
You can also look at the now hotly collected 20th Century Registry sets. Compare the Pops...there's a big difference in the standards.
If NGC coins were allowed in the PCGS Set Registry it would not be fair to those participants who only had PCGS coins in their sets as their sets would be compared to other sets that had coins in them that were graded by the looser NGC standards. And it wouldn't be fair financially either. For modern coins, as an example, you can usually buy NGC 70s for a lot less than PCGS 70s.
All of the above is the major reason why only PCGS coins are allowed in the PCGS Set Registry. While we admittedly also have some strong competitive reasons for have an exclusive PCGS Set Registry (and NGC has a strong competitive need to allow PCGS coins in its Registry), the most important reason of all for the exclusivity is the fairness to the participants.
David Hall
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Comments
peacockcoins
My Auctions
Many submitters aren't dumb, they'll play the game to get the coin in the most valuable holder regardless of what service/grade that means. The population numbers also include crackouts that were never sent to be removed from the populations.
If you really wanted to find out, you'd submit the same batch of coins 10 times to each service and see how it played out.
Of course, at the end of the experiment, they'd all have a bunch of fingerprints on them.
I don't doubt there are bad coins in either holder or great coins in either holder. Quality varies within a grade in the same holder, even if they were graded in the same era (as illustrated by the recent showdown). PCGS's goal, as evidenced by the 25-50% crossover goal, is to maintain a standard slightly above NGC's. In that respect, on average, they have mostly been successful. On a coin by coin basis, however, anything can occur. That's where the statistics break down.
I also think that it's important to realize that we're talking about at most a half a grade. I agree with a statement made last night that one reason the services are seemingly inconsistent is the 11 point grading scale. If the grades were 60, 63, 65, 67 and 70 then there'd be almost no difference between the top services.
Staking out the high position in each grade is an inherent advantage to one service, allowing multiple holders in its Registry is the tradeoff advantage for the other service. Isn't it great to have choices as a collector?!
BUT there are ngc coins that are solid for the grade and even better than similar pcgs coins in the same grade
and even be undergraded and with monster
eye appeal/extraordinary exceptional qualities heads and tails over same graded coins in ngc/pcgs holders and even higher graded pcgs/ngc holders!
i have seen them! all are in what i call an eastern collection in my hometown of rochester ny!
the overall look and grade of a coin is a subjective thing to a certain point
what about the fantastic great monster extraordinary excpetional ngc coins?
but i guess being an imperfect world the registry sets go by the grade and other printed attributes on the holder from the comapny that sponsors the set and that is totally acceptable to me as you need a standard in the same holders, so it is the best we got
and in the end when all is said and done i can certianly see why the pcgs
set registry only allows pcgs coins a well taken point
there has to be a line drawn somewhere and even if you had a panel of experts that looked at physically looked at these great extraordinary ngc coins as i stated above and they would be included in the pcgs registry then others with mAYBE not extraordinary examples would cry foul and it opens another can of worms so to speak and grading eye appeal being subjective it makes an even more fuddled mess
so i think it is the best we got so far
for me the registry is an importANT FUN THING but ultimately
buy the coin not the holder!
if a coin is a great extraordinary monster and in an ngc holder all the better as i think you can sometimes not all the time get it at less money! such is a fact a cold hard fact of the coin game!
and if you get all these ngc coins then you cant participate in the pcgs registry i guess such is life all will survive
and yes if it was in a pcgs holder the current market being what it is then yes it is the same coin but worth more because of the perception of the current market and a bonus because of the pcgs registry and that is okie
but things are always in a state of flux and things change
so for me if i boughtcoins i would always buy the coin and not the holder
yes it is a plus if in a pcgs holder but for me again if in an ngc holder that is okie too
AS LONG AS THE COIN IS ALL THERE AND AN EXTRAORDINARY COIN THAT WALKS AND TALKS AND SINGS TO ME
THIS IS what matters most to me based on my 35 years in the coin game and what i have seen come and go
for me pcgs/ngc have their days in the sun with some clouds but overall i think they have been more positive and helped the hobby more than hurt it! and of course if you only buy great coins in the holders then that is even better as in the long run a great coin is always a great coin no matter what holder!!!!!!!!!
sincerely michael
there are 5 types of coins
crappy coins
average coins
good coins
very good coins
great coins only buy great coins
i can also remember when 69 and 70 coins were considered gaga coins by most everyone in the numismatic community only a few short years ago i still consider them to be so and for me i think a 70 coin only exists in theory
but again grading and eye appeal in coins is overall a subjective thing sometimes on the mark with all agreeing but this would be a rare occurance
i see lots of ngc and pcgs coins in holders all types and all grades
most all for me in both holders are CRAPPY MOST average to good FEW very good but EVEN FEWER GREAT great! I MEAN that is just the way it is if i operated a grading service i would not grade 80% sent to me but i do not own a grading service...........lol and i can see why
only BUY GREAT COINS! NO MATTER WHAT THE HOLDER
and if you can participate in a registy great!
and if not then get a free web pags photograph your coins and make your own registry and tell why your coins are special!!!!!
Greg
Because NGC has a higher percentage of MS64 and MS65 coins does not necessarily mean they are more liberal in their grading. In fact, it may mean the higher end coins have been given to NCG to grade!
Who has proven otherwise David? To say their census is skewed is hearsay, unless you have proof otherwise. Would you not agree?
I await your proof to back up your statements.
Edited to say:
This was not meant to sound, or be threatening. I would like to see the proof before I took the word of someone who is so closely involved.
I'm one who has experienced first hand the frustration of trying to get an NGC coin crossed, only to be told(the first time) it had questionable toning, and given a grade less than the NGC grade. The second time, it crossed to the exact grade NGC had given it. Two fees, instead of one. Was that subjective grading? Or gouging? That was just one experience. I have more. Certainly not as many as some of your better, regular, customers.
i understand the thought process behind it
but it serves no useful purpose and i would expect something better from you and i think you are worthy of something better
i think you are a better person than that statement you printed
hopefully someday it might come out
sincerely michael
PCGS excluding NGC coins is plain bad for the collector, maybe good for business but in the long run will hurt PCGS. Certain series just dont have enough PCGS coins to complete, then why register unless I know i can complete with a mix of slabs.
Think about what collectors want vs. what's good for business. Serve your audience and "they will come".
Mr. Hall,
Thank you for taking the time to post. It is good to hear the views of respected coin expert.
I agree that the PCGS Registry should only contain PCGS coins because of 1) It is the PCGS Registry and 2) Because they grade differently
However your statement They (NGC [sic]) have slightly looser grading standards than PCGS could just as easily be stated as PCGS has tighter grading standards than NGC and maybe reality lies somewhere in between?
If the definition of a PR70 is Full Strike/As Struck flawless under 5x magnification, what would happen if the NGC PR70's were all examined by PCGS - would PCGS be able to find flaws in the same number of coins that would make the population comparisons equal? Do you find this to be the case on the crossovers that are submitted?
Thanks
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
MS/PR70 should be the easiest to grade accurately. There is no subjective opinion here. If the coin is flawless under 5x, it is 70, right?
The fact that NGC has more 70's than 69's could be due to selective submissions. Submitters with truly 70 grade coins may feel they won't get a 70 from PCGS and submit to NGC. Submitters with truly 69 grade coins would rather have a PCGS 68 than an NGC 69. This would account for a 69 hole in NGC's pops.
Grading tougher (lower) than others does not mean grading more accurately. If you truly believe PCGS's grades are accurate, then ignore the numbers (and me) and keep up the good work. However, if PCGS is grading 1 or 2 points tougher to add value to their holders, then you are denying the collector the opportunity to have their coin accuratly graded and slabbed in the premium company's holder.
David, I can say, without a doubt, the stats on the $20 Libs and Saints are 100% correct! Im talking from expierence and no one can tell me different!
Legend, Whats wrong with Mr. Hall answering a few questions?
Obviously this is just my observation but I have been doing this for about 8 years now and I think it is correct. The only way to know for sure is to do what has already been suggested. An independant study sending the same coins in for grading to both services several times without the services being aware that they are being studied.
Since I am sure PCGS would come out on top, maybe someone(D.H.) there would be willing to fund such a study by an independant contractor.
You got it right. The collectors in general want only PCGS coins in the Registry. Look at all the new sets that get entered every month. If people want a mixed set the option exists to enter the NCG Registry with their other ten participants. You will always get your complainers like the lady above whose recent posts lead me to believe she has a dreaded case of the malady "permanent pleasantness."
Edited because it was an improper, poorly thoughtout attempt at levity made in the heat of the moment, and directed toward no one in particular
I agree with your analysis and rationale completely. It is the PCGS Registry, not the combined registry. For my series, Mercurys, NGC has a different standard than PCGS. The market reflects this.
I dont think people understand the high level of computer effort involved with both all of these boards and the registry. This is just a hobby and the registry should be fun. It is NOT that big a deal.
There are a lot more average collectors than high end collectors. I will never have to worry about having a Mercury set anywhere near the best ever. The best of all time thing is overblown in my mind. Maybe it would not be if I could afford $10,000 and up coins. (or should I say $1,000 and up!).
Anyway, this one little guy is behind you 100%. And lets keep the fingerprints off the coins please.
in their registry under the following scenario:
For every 1% of coins contained within a registry that had NGC coins deduct 1/5 of 1% from the net grade of the NGC coins within the set. This would be a stated "penalty" which can be modest but will grow as more and more NGC coins are added to a set.
For example,
if 5% of the registry set were NGC coins deduct 1% from the net grade of all the NGC coins in the registry set.
If 10% of the registry set were NGC deduct 2% from the net grade of all the NGC coins in the registry set.
If 40% of the registry set were NGC deduct 8% from the net grade of all the NGC coins in the registry set.
As you can see from the above examples, they allow for more than 10% non {CGS coins but also exacts a growing but rational "penalty" or "service charge" for using non proprietary products in a system paid for by the proprietary company (PCGS).
If someone wanted to put a 100% NGC product right here for the thrill of it they would have a net rating of 80% of the raw grade but so what? We PCGS users get to look at another collectors set and enjoy it for what it is.
If a collection were rated all MS-67 with 1% NGC coins such set would be net graded 67 - (0.2% x 67) = 66.86
If a collection were rated all MS-67 with 5% NGC coins such set would be net graded 67 - (1% x 67) = 66.33
If a collection were rated all MS-67 with 10% NGC coins such set would be net graded 67 - (2% x 67) = 65.66.
If a collection were rated all MS-67 with 20% NGC coins such set would be net graded 67 - (4% x 67) =
64.34.
This allows for more flexibility than even the current NGC plan but with an appropriate "service charge."
I like this idea enough that I believe NGC should use this same model.
This would provide a very simple formula to calculate a modest or more severe penalty depending on how many NGC coins are included in the set.
The reason why this may work is many collector may want to use NGC slabs as fillers on certain coins or coins that are simply unavailable in PCGS but would give them an incentive to display what they have under a formula that all can understand yet protect the preference for having PCGS coins with a registry set.
What do you gals and guys think?
<< <i>All of the above is the major reason why only PCGS coins are allowed in the PCGS Set Registry. While we admittedly also have some strong competitive reasons for have an exclusive PCGS Set Registry (and NGC has a strong competitive need to allow PCGS coins in its Registry), the most important reason of all for the exclusivity is the fairness to the participants. >>
That's good spin, but as an analyst, wouldn't a more logical (and likely) explanation be that this makes good business sense? After all, if I really want to compete, I'll have to submit all those NGC coins I have for crossover (several times to get an accurate grade most likely), and that's a great source of recurring revenue. You allow NGC coins, and like magic, the revenue stream dries up.
As far as your statistics go, congratulations on the obfuscation! I too am a master of numbers, and I applaud your use of an extemely biased sample to prove your point. How much of your lower population of higher grade coins is due to you being the more accurate graders, and how much of it is due to risk control? How much of your "better grading" is your aversion to repeats of the incident involving Ms. Sperber's now infamous Saint? Perhaps a better, more objective sample would be the populations between MS-60 to MS-65, or better yet, how about a stratified sample of grade breakdowns, such as all the MS grades, AU grades, and sub-AU grades? The statistics you laid out prove little, it would be like me saying since I am good in english, I am smarter than Einstein. And let's not even start to talk about the inherant inaccuracy and unreliability of population statistics. I wonder, how many coins are counted in the populations of both services as multiple grades?
I freely admit, you are tighter in many cases than the other services, but like many have said before, I collect coins, not hunks of plastic with numbers on them (If I did I would be one of those wierd people that collect old credit cards).
Thank you for your comments on this VERY IMPORTANT subject to me. I am 100% behind you on NOT allowing the NGS coins in the sets.
The one thing that I have not seen in the threads, is that fact that when the time comes to Pedigree the set, I KNOW PCGS IS NOT GOING TO PEDEGREE A NGC HOLDER COIN>>>come on, think about it. So my point is, if PCGS is not going to recognize the holder of another company, then why start.
I for one chose to buy PCGS from the start, and have PAID the money for the difference in the two holders (PCGS vs NGC) and I really dont feel it would be fair to let it combine.
My Dimes
<< If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right the first time! >>
P.S. Like I said there are exceptions, here is one. It crossed over from NGC 67 to PCGS 67, and was nicer than the PCGS 67 that I had.
Type 1 Buffalo
The picture is in black and white. It shows the detail and luster better for this coin.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
Suggest a third option. A MIXED SET REGISTRY, that would keep the mixed set folks happy without "endangering" any PCGS sets - think of the goodwill and great public relations PCGS could obtain from such a registry.
WSM,
No one can ever tell you different. It's almost like you refuse to listen, like an ostrich who's buried its head in the sand hole to ignore what else is around it.
That's an excellent approach to take through life... I wish more had your wisdom.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
You've got to be kidding!!!
The Great One offered very little in the way of a comprehensive statistical analysis of the available data. One needs to analyze ALL the series at every grade level during each time period to see what's going on.
It's like saying that I was walking through the park and I saw three dogs, and two of them are white. Therefore, the vast majority of dogs are white, and the black-coated one is an exception.
I say that we examine more dogs, of all genders, ages and timelines. (Did you know that during the Middle Ages, there was very few black cats in Europe because of superstition?) It's important to examine the data versus time as well as versus every other piece of available data.
That's how statistics is done!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Stop insulting squirrels. I love animals. All animals. (Oh, I apologize to ostriches too.)
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I whole heartedly agree, NO NGC coins in the PCGS registry.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
Scott M
Everything is linear if plotted log-log with a fat magic marker
I wish it were true that PCGS grades "tighter". On a personal level, I had a dealer send my nine NGC proof gold coins in to PCGS for crossover, so I could complete my PCGS gold proof sets. I bought these coins before the Registries existed. These are low pop high grades, such as a 1910 10$ PR67 Indian,(PCGS has none graded above PR65): not one coin crossed. Several were tried again, using a different dealer and the the express service, still none crossed.
Both dealers happen to be expert graders, ( everyone would know them if I mention their names). They both made the comment,
"its political". They both agreed that most of the coins should have crossed. What bothers me the most is this comment, from a person who examined several of the above coins, "PCGS does not know how to grade proof gold". This person has made this comment to me several times. Since he is one of the original founders of PCGS, I tend to believe him. I will not mention his name here as it might put him on the spot. I have personally met several of the PCGS founders.
I made the last comment, because somebody as sharp as Laura, would figure this out.
SO, I am sitting here with a half million dollars worth of proof gold, that I cannot use in my PCGS Registry SETS, and with the now, firm belief, that my NGC proof gold coins are not being crossed over because PCGS is not "TIGHTER", they just do not know HOW to grade proof gold, as quoted by one of its founders. I would not make these comments unless they were true. I still want to finish any sets I have going at PCGS, and I want PCGS to remain #1, but if what the above person says is true, then my coins will never cross.
So, I would then ask you to consider OREVILLE's suggestion and allow NGC coins in with a penalty, or only allow 10- 20% of NGC coins in a set. Best Regards,
Paul Taylor
That said, there is also no question in my mind that PCGS now grades more strictly than PCGS graded a couple years ago. So, maybe only recently graded PCGS coins should be allowed in the PCGS set registry.
Russ, NCNE
Zerbe, That is an awful experience with your crossover attempts, however I've heard that same story so many times from various people in the past that it doesn't surprise me in the least.
Dragon
Laura, why complain about the crossover rate. If NGC coins are just as good, and if your customers are satisfied with mixed sets then why are you trying to cross them. Just leave them where they are. What I suspect is that dealers really do value PCGS coins higher and that's why they try for crosses. The complaints are due to the fact that you are not able to realize the extra profits which the PCGS plastic would allow you to earn.
Laura, if you and other dealers really believed that on average NGC coins are as good on average as PCGS coins you would bid the same for them when offered by customers. I can assure you that dealers on the whole and on average will not pay as much for an NGC coin as a PCGS coin. Obviously there are rare exceptions for the occassional phenomenal coin, but that is not the rule.
Greg
Really? Have you looked at Bluesheet lately? Aside from moderns, what's your basis to this?
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Secondly, as someone who is trying to put together a 19th Century type set, I am not concerned re the Registry Set phenomenon, per se. If PCGS wants only PCGS coins in their registry sets, so be it. The sets have their names on them, they make the rules. If you don't like these rules, you don't have to play; I don't.
Thirdly, Zerbe's comments are not new to me, and remain disturbing. While I know less than nothing about proof gold, I've heard these same comments from many respected people in the industry who shall remain nameless re coins not crossing for political reasons. David, while some people who send in coins don't know how to grade and I've seen some truly horrific NGC coins, I've also seen plenty of outstanding coins for the grade in NGC holders. The latter should have no problem crossing at the same grade.
Not doing so is bad for the hobby.
This makes me look for really nice NGC material for the grade. I buy the coin, not the holder, and I can often get a cherry NGC coin for less money than the same coin in a PCGS holder at the same grade. I know several dealers who go out of their way to buy this material. They price it right and I am happy to do business with them. I picked up my MS 64 Reeded Edge Half in this manner. Ditto re my PF 65 Barber Dime. The nicest Capped Bust Half I've ever seen in MS 65 was in an NGC holder. If I didn't already have a Reeded Edge variety, I would have bought it on layaway; it was priced to move.
In terms of who has a higher grading standard, this has been beaten to death here, but I will reiterate once again. It all depends on the specific grades & series of coin(s). From what I've seen, you are absolutely correct if you are talking about Liberty Nickels in MS 66. Ditto re Braided Hair and Classic
Half Cents, and Braided Hair Large Cents in MS 65. I do not agree with you, however, if you are talking about Seated or Barber Dimes, Quarter, or Halves in MS 64 & 65.
Of course, this begs the question of which grading standard are we talking about, as someone mentioned earlier. The attractive bright white silver MS 65 type coins in first generation PCGS holders are extinct. Due to new (not necessarily better) standards, they are now 6s, and in some cases, 7s.
Another sore point with me is the PCGS RB Large & Half Cents which were slabbed between 8 & 15 years ago with 5-10% mint red. If they were sent in for grading in the last 5 years, they'd all be in BN holders. For the Classic Half Cent in MS 65, as well as earlier copper, RB vs BN is significant re pricing.
Speaking of grading standards, don't forget the really ugly technically graded MS 65 type coins in first and second generation holders that would be downgraded if submitted today. They seem to magically re-appear at Long Beach Shows and at major auctions. PCGS and NGC would do the hobby a favor by downgrading these coins and writing their buyers checks. Yes, it would cost $ in the short run, but you and Mark at NGC would make it up and then some from the goodwill this would generate.
I only use pop reports as a rough guide, because the afore-mentioned 5s were probably cracked out and therefore, are now listed in the pop reports at least twice (depending on how many times they were cracked out), the original coin as a 5 & the crack-out upgrade as a 6 or 7. The successful cross-over coins are also listed twice, in ANACS, NGC, etc. pop reports as well as the PCGS reports. Also, don't forget the guy who submitted his MS 64 Seated $ ten times for an upgrade, and was successful in his final attempt (I heard him bragging about it at Long Beach a few years ago). There are ten MS 64 coins of that particular date that don't exist in your pop reports.
As an aside, that reminds me of my MS 64 Trade $. It's cherry, and I don't know how many times the dealer who sold it to me sent in for an upgrade (I know for a fact that he tried this at least once).
Well David, you have your work cut out for you. I wish you the best of success.
El Contador
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Albert Einstein
"I think that a particle must have a separate reality independent of the measurements.That is, an electron has spin,location and so forth even when it is not being measured.I like to think that the moon is there even if I am not looking at it."
Albert Einstein
"A gem by any other name is still a gem."
mr1874
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
it's the pcgs registry, anyone who wants can go across the street to ngc, proud parents of the mixed registry.
now about those conflicts of interest.....
#2. I believe what I see, not what Im told(so others can take #1 as they wish)!
#3. Good luck finding that 10% NGC $20 Gold that isnt overgraded, I really dont have that much extra search time available!( this is if the prices paid are as close to PCGS as some of you claim)!
#4. NO ONE CAN TELL ME DIFFERENT!
<< <i>Explain Volumetric Effientcy? >>
I don't know what it is, but I do know how to spell "efficiency". WSM, here's a clue for you: An attempted flame is more effective if, in the course of the attempt, you avoid making yourself look stupid.
Russ, NCNE
As I said before, you just keep on buying only PCGS double eagles and I will keep buying NICE double eagles.
By the way, I just got a nice type 1 lib in, hold your breath, an ANACS holder!!!! How utterly shocking!!!
You just got back to this site. Do you really want to spend your first days back getting down and dirty with WSM? I assure you that he's not worth the trouble. No one who's mantra is ``and you can't tell me different'' is worth it.
All you can learn from dealing with him is patience and anger management.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>All you can learn from dealing with him is patience and anger management. >>
But those are really valuable skills...
I do not understand why such Neanderthal insolence and singular prejudice is allowed on these boards. This is sexual harassment. This is also the statement of a person with deep-seated psychological issues about females and his feminine self. (Although I'm sure THAT just went over his puny little head). PLEASE PULL THE TOOTHPULLER and don't allow him to post without a public apology to Ms. Sperber.
toothpuller - Try to know who you are addressing before you address them, especially insultingly. It would make sense that you are an arrogant fool, just given the implications of your title, but keep your little-boy prejudices to yourself.
FYI - I have never met Luara Sperber, but I know who she is. She is a coin dealer of significant renown, just as D. Hall is. She is also one of the most qualified individuals around for knowing what appealing coins are and how to grade them. She has more experience in this field than most of us so-called "numistmatists." Now, a fair argument with Ms. Sperber (or Mr. Hall) is fine, but name-calling, prejudicial remarks, and sexual harassment can be left out of this forum entirely.
Hoot
(The person to whom he was referring is not relevent; it's inappropriate by any measure.)
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I think what many of us fail to comprehend that two or three strong grading companies benefit us all. It's the competition that drives companies to provide the type and quality of services that we as collectors deserve. If the criticism of one grading company is well founded then it should be made public, how else will they (any grading company) become aware of their shortcomings if their customers don't make them aware of it. Do you believe for one minute that a large submitter to any grading company doesn't get their ear. Why don't we deserve the same kind of attention. Finally I will say this one last time, if you are going to make outrageous statements about competitors of PCGS be prepared to be taken to task to back them up. I am tired of hearing this stuff, I guess I have come to the conclusion that some of us have become so narrowed minded in pursuit of that "PCGS" registry coin, that we have indeed lost sight of the beauty of coins and collecting. Some of us have a fear which almost is pathological that some other grading company might steal PCGS's thunder. This kind of spewing is having the opposite affect of what you intend, its acutually turning people off and away from collecting PCGS coins and the registry. In the long run this will affect the value of your registry coins. If less people quit paying the premium these coins bring, then you will have no one else but yourself to blame for the declining value of your coins.
Many of us have migrated over the NGC forum, because we see and appreciate daily the interplay from the graders and employees of NGC. It's been that way from their inception. You don't hear the excuse over their that Mr or Mrs so and so is too busy. DH certainly became less busy all of a sudden. One last thought, the poll generated about which grading service slab you purchase coins in, shows that only 1 out of 5 purchase PCGS exclusively, that ought to tell you that its time to become less defensive about your PCGS coins and Registry and maybe a little more open to what others of us have discovered. Realize if that poll is anywhere near accurate, that Registry coins and Registry collectors are in the vast minority of people who post here. You might yet drive everyone but yourselves away from this board if you don't realize that. Some of us need to ask the quesion of ourselves, is this really what we want to do?