@291fifth said:
Coins are more a speculation than an investment. They just sit there and hope that someone in the future will want them more than people in the present.
That’s literally the definition of an investment.
“I really hope people want this stock/bond/house/land/beanie baby more tomorrow that they do today.”
It's what most people call investment. For the search I just performed now, Google AI made a distinction between economic investment and financial investment which is the one I use too, hence why I always put "investment" in quotes in my posts.
@MasonG said:
Based on comments read on this message board, I think some people use the idea that coins are an investment to justify to themselves the amount of money they spend on them.
With the prices of so many coin over the last multiple decades at minimum, it should be evident that unless the buyer treats their purchase as an alternate consumption expense, the price paid incorporate the assumption or expectation that they will recover most, all, or more than their money back.
Sorry, @Creg - I had to LOL this comment. If you're seeking education from this guy, you'll be misinformed and, by comparing him with other valuable members, you tarnish their reputation!
Don't be too tough on Cougar. His learning curve is a circle.
@MasonG said:
Based on comments read on this message board, I think some people use the idea that coins are an investment to justify to themselves the amount of money they spend on them.
With the prices of so many coin over the last multiple decades at minimum, it should be evident that unless the buyer treats their purchase as an alternate consumption expense, the price paid incorporate the assumption or expectation that they will recover most, all, or more than their money back.
Huh?
The prices of so many coins are at minimum? I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.
There's no doubt most coin buyers assume some amount of recovery. But people are prone to delusion. Beanie Baby buyers are also sure of the returns, until they failed to materialize.
If I still owned the VG/F SVDB that I paid $400 for in 2000 today, I lost a ton of money even if I could sell it for $800 today. That price change is approximately equal to inflation. The S&P500, on the other hand, is up 700% in the same period.
I prefer "alternative consumption" because it is more realistic for 95% of the coin estates i see. It also allows me to enjoy the hobby, and sleep better, because I have no concerns about coin market movement.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
If I still owned the VG/F SVDB that I paid $400 for in 2000 today, I lost a ton of money even if I could sell it for $800 today. That price change is approximately equal to inflation. The S&P500, on the other hand, is up 700% in the same period.
I prefer "alternative consumption" because it is more realistic for 95% of the coin estates i see. It also allows me to enjoy the hobby, and sleep better, because I have no concerns about coin market movement.
What prospective we are losing here in the joy of ownership. The excitement of collecting and yes, owning that worn 1909-S VDB. What price tag do you place on pleasure and fun?
If I still owned the VG/F SVDB that I paid $400 for in 2000 today, I lost a ton of money even if I could sell it for $800 today. That price change is approximately equal to inflation. The S&P500, on the other hand, is up 700% in the same period.
I prefer "alternative consumption" because it is more realistic for 95% of the coin estates i see. It also allows me to enjoy the hobby, and sleep better, because I have no concerns about coin market movement.
What prospective we are losing here in the joy of ownership. The excitement of collecting and yes, owning that worn 1909-S VDB. What price tag do you place on pleasure and fun?
That's the point. Buy it because it brings you pleasure not profit. You will always have the pleasure, you can't guarantee the profit.
Too many people ask "what coin should I buy"? The answer is always, "whichever one gives you pleasure". Period. It costs over guide? So what, will it give you pleasure with that number? It costs less than guide? So what, don't buy if it's a bargain that sparks no joy.
If you are asking a bunch of strangers, "should I buy this coin?" The answer is definitely NOT, you don't love it enough.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
If I still owned the VG/F SVDB that I paid $400 for in 2000 today, I lost a ton of money even if I could sell it for $800 today. That price change is approximately equal to inflation. The S&P500, on the other hand, is up 700% in the same period.
I prefer "alternative consumption" because it is more realistic for 95% of the coin estates i see. It also allows me to enjoy the hobby, and sleep better, because I have no concerns about coin market movement.
What prospective we are losing here in the joy of ownership. The excitement of collecting and yes, owning that worn 1909-S VDB. What price tag do you place on pleasure and fun?
That's the point. Buy it because it brings you pleasure not profit. You will always have the pleasure, you can't guarantee the profit.
Too many people ask "what coin should I buy"? The answer is always, "whichever one gives you pleasure". Period. It costs over guide? So what, will it give you pleasure with that number? It costs less than guide? So what, don't buy if it's a bargain that sparks no joy.
If you are asking a bunch of strangers, "should I buy this coin?" The answer is definitely NOT, you don't love it enough.
^^
POTD
A friend of mine loves to sky dive. It's his passion and joy. It has turned into an expensive hobby though. Easily $500. per jump.
It's the cost of enjoying his life.
On a much smaller scale- outside of many other interests I am sure we all have here- coin collecting is a single hobby that does have a potential of paying off in dividends of satisfaction and monetarily enrichment.
The image above is a 1794 60 Grana coin from Naples that graded MS64 by our host and is likely among the finest known... it is about the same size as a US Half Dollar and I would consider this coin as a coin that can be enjoyed for its history and artistic merit as well as being an investment.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
@jmlanzaf said:
That's the point. Buy it because it brings you pleasure not profit. You will always have the pleasure, you can't guarantee the profit.
I have read posts here advising prospective buyers to consider what a coin might be able to be sold for before deciding to buy it. If you (in general, not directed at any specific poster) want to worry about that, well- it's a free country. As for me, there's no way I would enjoy owning a coin that had me concerned about what I could sell it for before it was even mine.
The original premise, which has gone off track but still made for an interesting (albeit slightly contentious thread) is probably somewhat true for most coins minted from 1900 to 1947, excepting for the key dates in each series, where even dropping into the top EF grades can probably be considered "investment grade". That is a term I hate, for what it's worth.
For almost every other portion of numismatics, there is a much bigger, "it depends" than that.
.
My brother collects cars. Just one or two cool ones at a time, but he tends to become very attached to them, bringing them to shows, staying involved in car clubs, Sunday driving, etc. He is an old VW brand specialist (buses and trucks mostly), knows what he is looking at, what is rare and original and desirable, how to fix and restore, and how to buy right ... and he has fun owning and caring for them. Eventually, when he sells them, he almost always makes real money, but not enough to call it a great investment.
I think a lot of coins are this way. Those who tend to buy what they know, and really know what they are looking at, and also buy right and own and care for them for a long time, probably make real money when they are sold. But I doubt many compound like other investments. Here and there maybe, but probably not as a whole.
And, that's a lot of "ands". Because, frankly, just like with cars (and art and other collectibles), you have to get a lot right in the beginning and through the process to have a chance to get your money back in the end.
.
So ... like @jmlanza seems to posit ... and I can say I wholeheartedly agree ... you damn sure better enjoy what you collect.
Someday there may have been a real cost of ownership, but if we had fun and stayed in our lanes, will it really matter that much?
.
As for me, all of the money I have spent fishing and kayaking and 4x4'ng isn't coming back, in almost any way, but I wouldn't change those adventures for the money spent. Not a chance.
And while all the money I have spent on Capped Bust Halves might come back in full, and maybe even with a little extra, it probably won't come near what my investment accounts reap. But again, I wouldn't trade them for the experiences and enjoyment I've had collecting them so far.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
When I was buying coins with my paper route money in 1958 I could take my pick of Unc Saints for about $60. Indian half eagles were about $15. So, I’ve done well with coins over the long haul, but who knows what the future holds for non-productive and non-utilitarian assets like collectibles? I still collect, but I do it for intellectual stimulation with money I can afford to lose. My heirs can sort it all out.
@jmlanzaf said:
That's the point. Buy it because it brings you pleasure not profit. You will always have the pleasure, you can't guarantee the profit.
I have read posts here advising prospective buyers to consider what a coin might be able to be sold for before deciding to buy it. If you (in general, not directed at any specific poster) want to worry about that, well- it's a free country. As for me, there's no way I would enjoy owning a coin that had me concerned about what I could sell it for before it was even mine.
I suspect that this isn’t a particularly rare scenario:
A collector sees a coin offered for sale, which he is certain would bring him considerable pleasure.
But it’s a lot more expensive than his typical purchase and to make matters worse, it’s very aggressively priced.
The collector is concerned that he’d be stretching his budget severely.
But he’d feel a lot better if he thinks that if he needs to sell it, he’ll be able to get at least x% of his purchase price back.
Granted, some collectors won’t even consider making such a purchase, but many others will and do.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
In general, coins make sluggish investments. And in general, if you want a decent chance at a more impressive ROI, your best shot is coins that are among the finest known. Not because they’re better value, but because anything less is unlikely to attract a bidding war when you decide to sell.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I suspect that this isn’t a particularly rare scenario:
A collector sees a coin offered for sale, which he is certain would bring him considerable pleasure.
But it’s a lot more expensive than his typical purchase and to make matters worse, it’s very aggressively priced.
** The collector is concerned that he’d be stretching his budget severely.**
But he’d feel a lot better if he thinks that if he needs to sell it, he’ll be able to get at least x% of his purchase price back.
Granted, some collectors won’t even consider making such a purchase, but many others will and do.
I'd think the moment pain and worry replace joy and contentment that collector/buyer should move on.
I suspect that this isn’t a particularly rare scenario:
A collector sees a coin offered for sale, which he is certain would bring him considerable pleasure.
But it’s a lot more expensive than his typical purchase and to make matters worse, it’s very aggressively priced.
** The collector is concerned that he’d be stretching his budget severely.**
But he’d feel a lot better if he thinks that if he needs to sell it, he’ll be able to get at least x% of his purchase price back.
Granted, some collectors won’t even consider making such a purchase, but many others will and do.
I'd think the moment pain and worry replace joy and contentment that collector/buyer should move on.
I think it's harder for some than others. My collection consists of "Coins I Like", there's nothing I need so it's easy to pass on something that costs more than what I want to spend. People putting together sets are almost certainly going to have holes that are expensive to fill and leaving an empty hole is hard for many.
@jmlanzaf said:
That's the point. Buy it because it brings you pleasure not profit. You will always have the pleasure, you can't guarantee the profit.
I have read posts here advising prospective buyers to consider what a coin might be able to be sold for before deciding to buy it. If you (in general, not directed at any specific poster) want to worry about that, well- it's a free country. As for me, there's no way I would enjoy owning a coin that had me concerned about what I could sell it for before it was even mine.
I suspect that this isn’t a particularly rare scenario:
A collector sees a coin offered for sale, which he is certain would bring him considerable pleasure.
But it’s a lot more expensive than his typical purchase and to make matters worse, it’s very aggressively priced.
The collector is concerned that he’d be stretching his budget severely.
But he’d feel a lot better if he thinks that if he needs to sell it, he’ll be able to get at least x% of his purchase price back.
Granted, some collectors won’t even consider making such a purchase, but many others will and do.
Honest question: how often is someone happy with a purchase they needed to be talked into?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I suspect that this isn’t a particularly rare scenario:
A collector sees a coin offered for sale, which he is certain would bring him considerable pleasure.
But it’s a lot more expensive than his typical purchase and to make matters worse, it’s very aggressively priced.
** The collector is concerned that he’d be stretching his budget severely.**
But he’d feel a lot better if he thinks that if he needs to sell it, he’ll be able to get at least x% of his purchase price back.
Granted, some collectors won’t even consider making such a purchase, but many others will and do.
I'd think the moment pain and worry replace joy and contentment that collector/buyer should move on.
I think it's harder for some than others. My collection consists of "Coins I Like", there's nothing I need so it's easy to pass on something that costs more than what I want to spend. People putting together sets are almost certainly going to have holes that are expensive to fill and leaving an empty hole is hard for many.
The need to fill holes is real... and expensive. That's why registry sets were so brilliant. How many $20 (or less) coins were sent in for $35 cases just so they could fill a hole? And crossovers... at least one forum member crossed coins that weren't worth slabs in the first place because he wanted/needed different plastic.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@jmlanzaf said:
That's the point. Buy it because it brings you pleasure not profit. You will always have the pleasure, you can't guarantee the profit.
I have read posts here advising prospective buyers to consider what a coin might be able to be sold for before deciding to buy it. If you (in general, not directed at any specific poster) want to worry about that, well- it's a free country. As for me, there's no way I would enjoy owning a coin that had me concerned about what I could sell it for before it was even mine.
I suspect that this isn’t a particularly rare scenario:
A collector sees a coin offered for sale, which he is certain would bring him considerable pleasure.
But it’s a lot more expensive than his typical purchase and to make matters worse, it’s very aggressively priced.
The collector is concerned that he’d be stretching his budget severely.
But he’d feel a lot better if he thinks that if he needs to sell it, he’ll be able to get at least x% of his purchase price back.
Granted, some collectors won’t even consider making such a purchase, but many others will and do.
Honest question: how often is someone happy with a purchase they needed to be talked into?
Honest answer: I don’t know.
But I wasn’t talking about that. I was referring to situations where someone is provided with market value information that helps put their mind at least somewhat as ease (as opposed to being talked into it).
I have heard and read many comments about collectors stretching significantly for great coins and being very happy that they did so.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@BillJones said:
It depends upon the coin. I paid less than $4,000 for each of these coins. Of course that was long ago, so compound interest might make these pieces not look all that great as investments. But there has been the enjoyment and entertainment factor which is worth something to me.
The Chain Cent is over graded as a VF-30. The 1796 Quarter is a VF-25.
Came here to say what Bill said so much better.
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Also won the PNG's Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
@jmlanzaf said:
The need to fill holes is real... and expensive.
My brother avoided this with his Morgan dollar collection. It's all slabbed higher grade (XF/AU/UNC) and doesn't include a 93-S because he doesn't want to spend $10k+ to get one in the grade he collects and he's not interested in a lower grade piece.
@jmlanzaf said:
The need to fill holes is real... and expensive.
My brother avoided this with his Morgan dollar collection. It's all slabbed higher grade (XF/AU/UNC) and doesn't include a 93-S because he doesn't want to spend $10k+ to get one in the grade he collects and he's not interested in a lower grade piece.
Fortunately, for him, his need to fill holes is limited. Lol.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@jmlanzaf said:
That's the point. Buy it because it brings you pleasure not profit. You will always have the pleasure, you can't guarantee the profit.
I have read posts here advising prospective buyers to consider what a coin might be able to be sold for before deciding to buy it. If you (in general, not directed at any specific poster) want to worry about that, well- it's a free country. As for me, there's no way I would enjoy owning a coin that had me concerned about what I could sell it for before it was even mine.
I suspect that this isn’t a particularly rare scenario:
A collector sees a coin offered for sale, which he is certain would bring him considerable pleasure.
But it’s a lot more expensive than his typical purchase and to make matters worse, it’s very aggressively priced.
The collector is concerned that he’d be stretching his budget severely.
But he’d feel a lot better if he thinks that if he needs to sell it, he’ll be able to get at least x% of his purchase price back.
Granted, some collectors won’t even consider making such a purchase, but many others will and do.
Honest question: how often is someone happy with a purchase they needed to be talked into?
Honest answer: I don’t know.
But I wasn’t talking about that. I was referring to situations where someone is provided with market value information that helps put their mind at least somewhat as ease (as opposed to being talked into it).
I have heard and read many comments about collectors stretching significantly for great coins and being very happy that they did so.
I'm not arguing against (or for) stretching. But if my stretch is tied to value...
I know a comic collector who only buys very low census comics. Every time a similar one comes up for auction, he sweats out the bidding, afraid a lower comp price will be established. He's even tried to talk me into bidding on one to boost the price. Now, maybe the tension is part of his joy, but I couldn't stand it.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@MFeld said:
I have heard and read many comments about collectors stretching significantly for great coins and being very happy that they did so.
My comments (above) are related to how one feels about making an initial purchase, what happens later is another story. I imagine people who stretched to buy Intel stock are happier than those who stretched to buy Enron.
@jmlanzaf said:
That's the point. Buy it because it brings you pleasure not profit. You will always have the pleasure, you can't guarantee the profit.
I have read posts here advising prospective buyers to consider what a coin might be able to be sold for before deciding to buy it. If you (in general, not directed at any specific poster) want to worry about that, well- it's a free country. As for me, there's no way I would enjoy owning a coin that had me concerned about what I could sell it for before it was even mine.
I suspect that this isn’t a particularly rare scenario:
A collector sees a coin offered for sale, which he is certain would bring him considerable pleasure.
But it’s a lot more expensive than his typical purchase and to make matters worse, it’s very aggressively priced.
The collector is concerned that he’d be stretching his budget severely.
But he’d feel a lot better if he thinks that if he needs to sell it, he’ll be able to get at least x% of his purchase price back.
Granted, some collectors won’t even consider making such a purchase, but many others will and do.
Honest question: how often is someone happy with a purchase they needed to be talked into?
Honest answer: I don’t know.
But I wasn’t talking about that. I was referring to situations where someone is provided with market value information that helps put their mind at least somewhat as ease (as opposed to being talked into it).
I have heard and read many comments about collectors stretching significantly for great coins and being very happy that they did so.
I'm not arguing against (or for) stretching. But if my stretch is tied to value...
I know a comic collector who only buys very low census comics. Every time a similar one comes up for auction, he sweats out the bidding, afraid a lower comp price will be established. He's even tried to talk me into bidding on one to boost the price. Now, maybe the tension is part of his joy, but I couldn't stand it.
Put me in touch with that comic collector so that I can let him know he’s wasting his time trying to talk you into anything. I can add years to his life.😈
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@jmlanzaf said:
That's the point. Buy it because it brings you pleasure not profit. You will always have the pleasure, you can't guarantee the profit.
I have read posts here advising prospective buyers to consider what a coin might be able to be sold for before deciding to buy it. If you (in general, not directed at any specific poster) want to worry about that, well- it's a free country. As for me, there's no way I would enjoy owning a coin that had me concerned about what I could sell it for before it was even mine.
I suspect that this isn’t a particularly rare scenario:
A collector sees a coin offered for sale, which he is certain would bring him considerable pleasure.
But it’s a lot more expensive than his typical purchase and to make matters worse, it’s very aggressively priced.
The collector is concerned that he’d be stretching his budget severely.
But he’d feel a lot better if he thinks that if he needs to sell it, he’ll be able to get at least x% of his purchase price back.
Granted, some collectors won’t even consider making such a purchase, but many others will and do.
Honest question: how often is someone happy with a purchase they needed to be talked into?
Honest answer: I don’t know.
But I wasn’t talking about that. I was referring to situations where someone is provided with market value information that helps put their mind at least somewhat as ease (as opposed to being talked into it).
I have heard and read many comments about collectors stretching significantly for great coins and being very happy that they did so.
I'm not arguing against (or for) stretching. But if my stretch is tied to value...
I know a comic collector who only buys very low census comics. Every time a similar one comes up for auction, he sweats out the bidding, afraid a lower comp price will be established. He's even tried to talk me into bidding on one to boost the price. Now, maybe the tension is part of his joy, but I couldn't stand it.
Put me in touch with that comic collector so that I can let him know he’s wasting his time trying to talk you into anything. I can add years to his life.😈
You don't know him. When I talk to him, I rarely get a word in edgewise.
And, for the record, he has occasionally talked me into bidding and even buying something. And one of them, I lived to regret. Lol
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@MFeld said:
I have heard and read many comments about collectors stretching significantly for great coins and being very happy that they did so.
My comments (above) are related to how one feels about making an initial purchase, what happens later is another story. I imagine people who stretched to buy Intel stock are happier than those who stretched to buy Enron.
I think that many of those who stretch significantly are nervous before the time of purchase and that they might need some reassurance. But that most or the time, once the money has been spent, they get to enjoying the coin.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@jmlanzaf said:
That's the point. Buy it because it brings you pleasure not profit. You will always have the pleasure, you can't guarantee the profit.
I have read posts here advising prospective buyers to consider what a coin might be able to be sold for before deciding to buy it. If you (in general, not directed at any specific poster) want to worry about that, well- it's a free country. As for me, there's no way I would enjoy owning a coin that had me concerned about what I could sell it for before it was even mine.
I suspect that this isn’t a particularly rare scenario:
A collector sees a coin offered for sale, which he is certain would bring him considerable pleasure.
But it’s a lot more expensive than his typical purchase and to make matters worse, it’s very aggressively priced.
The collector is concerned that he’d be stretching his budget severely.
But he’d feel a lot better if he thinks that if he needs to sell it, he’ll be able to get at least x% of his purchase price back.
Granted, some collectors won’t even consider making such a purchase, but many others will and do.
Honest question: how often is someone happy with a purchase they needed to be talked into?
Honest answer: I don’t know.
But I wasn’t talking about that. I was referring to situations where someone is provided with market value information that helps put their mind at least somewhat as ease (as opposed to being talked into it).
I have heard and read many comments about collectors stretching significantly for great coins and being very happy that they did so.
I'm not arguing against (or for) stretching. But if my stretch is tied to value...
I know a comic collector who only buys very low census comics. Every time a similar one comes up for auction, he sweats out the bidding, afraid a lower comp price will be established. He's even tried to talk me into bidding on one to boost the price. Now, maybe the tension is part of his joy, but I couldn't stand it.
Put me in touch with that comic collector so that I can let him know he’s wasting his time trying to talk you into anything. I can add years to his life.😈
You don't know him. When I talk to him, I rarely get a word in edgewise.
And, for the record, he has occasionally talked me into bidding and even buying something. And one of them, I lived to regret. Lol
Sorry, but I don’t believe any of that.😀
😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
There are no "investment" coins that I have owned that over a similar period of time have done any better than gold and silver bullion.
MS64 for type gold, probably MS65 cac for others. Better date Morgans and Peace dollars in those grades make some sense. Common dates have not done well on an "investment" basis.
How about just minimum grade? Like others have said. It depends on the series. I have several different album collections.
Minimum grade for my Lincoln album, 1909-1940 is "select" very fine. My '14-D is in a slab, PCGS VF30 CAC. My Jefferson nickel album collection minimum grade is ch. AU. Most of my monetary investment in the Jefferson album is in the '39-D and the '50-D. Both are ch. BU. If one were to find an original roll of '39-D (or '39-S) nickels available for purchase that would be worthy of a report on the 5'oclock news.
The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.
Albert Einstein (14 March 1879--18 April 1955)
Yes silver bullion coins beat generic Morgan’s when big silver run up to $140. Many banked big time (who had been holding stuff bought about 18 mo before at much lower spotprices, then profit 100 pct or higher when the run up hit.
These days slabbed Mexico Libertads hot. In recent auc tries on some them lost bc they bid considerably above CPG.
@Cougar1978 said:
I invest in material MS64-70 for most part. In some situations 63. I might pick up nice circs say below 58 (affordability) but nothing below G04.
However imo it’s up to the individual investor - budget, interest, and investment parameters.
So, in other words, you don't follow the "MS64 Minimum Investment Grade" rule you invented?
For me I will not buy anything below G04 ( my comment above). It’s my money, my preferences (free enterprise).
The MS 64 investment grade is a parameter which was in a 1986 book about RCI (David Hall) as I recall. I had read and studied that book very thoroughly then at show went up to major dealers table circa 1986 “ do you have any slabbed coins MS64 and above?” I had no advanced concept of grading but knew how to pick up nice stuff (preferred non tarnished). He told one of his assistants “get over there help him we have a real live one.” I bought slabbed Walkers, Dollars, Commems. Not much later Saints. Them $20 Libs sometime later. Then for awhile world gold.
Then shortly after that set up my first show (sharing table with friend from coin club). A big gun dealer tried to haggle me way down on a cc $10 MS61 gold piece. I stood my ground on my price that dealer walked away in a huff my friend said “way to show them.” Later in the show a collector bought the coin. I went to a grading seminar in Cali in 1988. Then later got certificate from ANA in Us coin grading.
@MFeld said:
I have heard and read many comments about collectors stretching significantly for great coins and being very happy that they did so.
.
I can honestly say that the great coins that I really had to stretch for are usually the one's with the least regrets, often have some of the greatest pride of ownership and enjoyment, and almost always seem to be the ones that are easiest to sell (at a profit even! gasp).
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
@Cougar1978 said:
For me I will not buy anything below G04 ( my comment above). It’s my money, my preferences (free enterprise). The MS 64 investment grade is a parameter which was in a 1986 book about RCI (David Hall) as I recall. I had read and studied that book thoroughly then at show went up to major dealers table circa 1986 “ do you have any slabbed coins MS64 and above?” I had no concept of grading but knew how to pick up nice stuff (preferred non tarnished). He told one of his assistants “get over there help him we have a real live one.” I bought Walkers, Dollars, Commems. Not much later Saints. Them $20 Libs sometime later. Then shortly after that set up my first show (sharing table with friend from coin club). A big gun dealer tried to haggle me way down on a cc $10 MS61 gold piece. I stood my ground on my price that dealer walked away in a huff my friend said “way to show them.” Later in the show a collector bought the coin. I went to a grading seminar in Cali in 1988. Then later got certificate from ANA in Us coin grading.
A serious dealer buys all grades Good and above on most series. About Good is acceptable to me, as a collector, for some series where the really desirable collector grades like vf and xf have been priced into unaffordability for the collector who wants to make an album set. Mostly AG Bust dime collection? Why not?
The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.
Albert Einstein (14 March 1879--18 April 1955)
@Cougar1978 said:
For me I will not buy anything below G04 ( my comment above). It’s my money, my preferences (free enterprise). The MS 64 investment grade is a parameter which was in a 1986 book about RCI (David Hall) as I recall. I had read and studied that book thoroughly then at show went up to major dealers table circa 1986 “ do you have any slabbed coins MS64 and above?” I had no concept of grading but knew how to pick up nice stuff (preferred non tarnished). He told one of his assistants “get over there help him we have a real live one.” I bought Walkers, Dollars, Commems. Not much later Saints. Them $20 Libs sometime later. Then shortly after that set up my first show (sharing table with friend from coin club). A big gun dealer tried to haggle me way down on a cc $10 MS61 gold piece. I stood my ground on my price that dealer walked away in a huff my friend said “way to show them.” Later in the show a collector bought the coin. I went to a grading seminar in Cali in 1988. Then later got certificate from ANA in Us coin grading.
A serious dealer buys all grades Good and above on most series. About Good is acceptable to me, as a collector, for some series where the really desirable collector grades like vf and xf have been priced into unaffordability for the collector who wants to make an album set. Mostly AG Bust dime collection? Why not?
Many serious dealers don’t buy “all grades Good and above on most series” or anywhere close to that. As just one example, some deal only in uncirculated and/or Proof coins.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
MS 64 is a benchmark for investment grade from a 1986 book on RCI. Still have it.
I have many coins above that. Considering the confusion by some posters here - I am not pushing just MS64 especially if the player can purchase above that. I have purchased coins below 64 due to plan or budget (like bust and seated stuff). But won’t go below G04.
"One size fits all" is a silly rule in almost any context, and certainly in this one.
What do you mean by "investment"? As a simple matter of fact, coin collecting isn't a particularly good "investment," compared to many other possibilities, regardless of grade. But many collectible US coins (at least pre-1965), in decent condition (and "decent" can be much lower than MS64), likely will, over time, increase in value in nominal dollars.
My observation, without any science involved, is that if "investment value" is your top priority, you should buy the most sought-after coins, in the highest grade you can afford. But lots of coins well below MS64 are very valuable, and as good an "investment" as almost any other coin, while lots of coins MS64 and above are quite common, and not likely to show much improvement.
Comments
I will?
I would?
It's what most people call investment. For the search I just performed now, Google AI made a distinction between economic investment and financial investment which is the one I use too, hence why I always put "investment" in quotes in my posts.
With the prices of so many coin over the last multiple decades at minimum, it should be evident that unless the buyer treats their purchase as an alternate consumption expense, the price paid incorporate the assumption or expectation that they will recover most, all, or more than their money back.
Don't be too tough on Cougar. His learning curve is a circle.
Huh?
The prices of so many coins are at minimum? I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.
There's no doubt most coin buyers assume some amount of recovery. But people are prone to delusion. Beanie Baby buyers are also sure of the returns, until they failed to materialize.
If I still owned the VG/F SVDB that I paid $400 for in 2000 today, I lost a ton of money even if I could sell it for $800 today. That price change is approximately equal to inflation. The S&P500, on the other hand, is up 700% in the same period.
I prefer "alternative consumption" because it is more realistic for 95% of the coin estates i see. It also allows me to enjoy the hobby, and sleep better, because I have no concerns about coin market movement.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
What prospective we are losing here in the joy of ownership. The excitement of collecting and yes, owning that worn 1909-S VDB. What price tag do you place on pleasure and fun?
That's the point. Buy it because it brings you pleasure not profit. You will always have the pleasure, you can't guarantee the profit.
Too many people ask "what coin should I buy"? The answer is always, "whichever one gives you pleasure". Period. It costs over guide? So what, will it give you pleasure with that number? It costs less than guide? So what, don't buy if it's a bargain that sparks no joy.
If you are asking a bunch of strangers, "should I buy this coin?" The answer is definitely NOT, you don't love it enough.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
^^
POTD
A friend of mine loves to sky dive. It's his passion and joy. It has turned into an expensive hobby though. Easily $500. per jump.
It's the cost of enjoying his life.
On a much smaller scale- outside of many other interests I am sure we all have here- coin collecting is a single hobby that does have a potential of paying off in dividends of satisfaction and monetarily enrichment.
The image above is a 1794 60 Grana coin from Naples that graded MS64 by our host and is likely among the finest known... it is about the same size as a US Half Dollar and I would consider this coin as a coin that can be enjoyed for its history and artistic merit as well as being an investment.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I have read posts here advising prospective buyers to consider what a coin might be able to be sold for before deciding to buy it. If you (in general, not directed at any specific poster) want to worry about that, well- it's a free country. As for me, there's no way I would enjoy owning a coin that had me concerned about what I could sell it for before it was even mine.
The original premise, which has gone off track but still made for an interesting (albeit slightly contentious thread) is probably somewhat true for most coins minted from 1900 to 1947, excepting for the key dates in each series, where even dropping into the top EF grades can probably be considered "investment grade". That is a term I hate, for what it's worth.
For almost every other portion of numismatics, there is a much bigger, "it depends" than that.
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My brother collects cars. Just one or two cool ones at a time, but he tends to become very attached to them, bringing them to shows, staying involved in car clubs, Sunday driving, etc. He is an old VW brand specialist (buses and trucks mostly), knows what he is looking at, what is rare and original and desirable, how to fix and restore, and how to buy right ... and he has fun owning and caring for them. Eventually, when he sells them, he almost always makes real money, but not enough to call it a great investment.
I think a lot of coins are this way. Those who tend to buy what they know, and really know what they are looking at, and also buy right and own and care for them for a long time, probably make real money when they are sold. But I doubt many compound like other investments. Here and there maybe, but probably not as a whole.
And, that's a lot of "ands". Because, frankly, just like with cars (and art and other collectibles), you have to get a lot right in the beginning and through the process to have a chance to get your money back in the end.
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So ... like @jmlanza seems to posit ... and I can say I wholeheartedly agree ... you damn sure better enjoy what you collect.
Someday there may have been a real cost of ownership, but if we had fun and stayed in our lanes, will it really matter that much?
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As for me, all of the money I have spent fishing and kayaking and 4x4'ng isn't coming back, in almost any way, but I wouldn't change those adventures for the money spent. Not a chance.
And while all the money I have spent on Capped Bust Halves might come back in full, and maybe even with a little extra, it probably won't come near what my investment accounts reap. But again, I wouldn't trade them for the experiences and enjoyment I've had collecting them so far.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
When I was buying coins with my paper route money in 1958 I could take my pick of Unc Saints for about $60. Indian half eagles were about $15. So, I’ve done well with coins over the long haul, but who knows what the future holds for non-productive and non-utilitarian assets like collectibles? I still collect, but I do it for intellectual stimulation with money I can afford to lose. My heirs can sort it all out.
I suspect that this isn’t a particularly rare scenario:
A collector sees a coin offered for sale, which he is certain would bring him considerable pleasure.
But it’s a lot more expensive than his typical purchase and to make matters worse, it’s very aggressively priced.
The collector is concerned that he’d be stretching his budget severely.
But he’d feel a lot better if he thinks that if he needs to sell it, he’ll be able to get at least x% of his purchase price back.
Granted, some collectors won’t even consider making such a purchase, but many others will and do.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
In general, coins make sluggish investments. And in general, if you want a decent chance at a more impressive ROI, your best shot is coins that are among the finest known. Not because they’re better value, but because anything less is unlikely to attract a bidding war when you decide to sell.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
No doubt. And if that collector can find a way to make the purchase work and be happy about it, good on him. As for me, no thanks.
I'd think the moment pain and worry replace joy and contentment that collector/buyer should move on.
I think it's harder for some than others. My collection consists of "Coins I Like", there's nothing I need so it's easy to pass on something that costs more than what I want to spend. People putting together sets are almost certainly going to have holes that are expensive to fill and leaving an empty hole is hard for many.
Honest question: how often is someone happy with a purchase they needed to be talked into?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Do you want an honest answer or a sarcastic one.
'Cause, you can't have both.
The need to fill holes is real... and expensive. That's why registry sets were so brilliant. How many $20 (or less) coins were sent in for $35 cases just so they could fill a hole? And crossovers... at least one forum member crossed coins that weren't worth slabs in the first place because he wanted/needed different plastic.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Can't i have both from different posters?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Honest answer: I don’t know.
But I wasn’t talking about that. I was referring to situations where someone is provided with market value information that helps put their mind at least somewhat as ease (as opposed to being talked into it).
I have heard and read many comments about collectors stretching significantly for great coins and being very happy that they did so.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Came here to say what Bill said so much better.
My brother avoided this with his Morgan dollar collection. It's all slabbed higher grade (XF/AU/UNC) and doesn't include a 93-S because he doesn't want to spend $10k+ to get one in the grade he collects and he's not interested in a lower grade piece.
Fortunately, for him, his need to fill holes is limited. Lol.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I'm not arguing against (or for) stretching. But if my stretch is tied to value...
I know a comic collector who only buys very low census comics. Every time a similar one comes up for auction, he sweats out the bidding, afraid a lower comp price will be established. He's even tried to talk me into bidding on one to boost the price. Now, maybe the tension is part of his joy, but I couldn't stand it.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
My comments (above) are related to how one feels about making an initial purchase, what happens later is another story. I imagine people who stretched to buy Intel stock are happier than those who stretched to buy Enron.
Put me in touch with that comic collector so that I can let him know he’s wasting his time trying to talk you into anything. I can add years to his life.😈
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
You don't know him. When I talk to him, I rarely get a word in edgewise.
And, for the record, he has occasionally talked me into bidding and even buying something. And one of them, I lived to regret. Lol
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I think that many of those who stretch significantly are nervous before the time of purchase and that they might need some reassurance. But that most or the time, once the money has been spent, they get to enjoying the coin.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Sorry, but I don’t believe any of that.😀
😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
You may be too young to remember
Those were the days....
I invest in material MS64-70 for most part. In some situations 63. I might pick up nice circs say below 58 (affordability) but nothing below G04.
However imo it’s up to the individual investor - budget, interest, and investment parameters.
There are no "investment" coins that I have owned that over a similar period of time have done any better than gold and silver bullion.
MS64 for type gold, probably MS65 cac for others. Better date Morgans and Peace dollars in those grades make some sense. Common dates have not done well on an "investment" basis.
minimum investment grade
How about just minimum grade? Like others have said. It depends on the series. I have several different album collections.
Minimum grade for my Lincoln album, 1909-1940 is "select" very fine. My '14-D is in a slab, PCGS VF30 CAC. My Jefferson nickel album collection minimum grade is ch. AU. Most of my monetary investment in the Jefferson album is in the '39-D and the '50-D. Both are ch. BU. If one were to find an original roll of '39-D (or '39-S) nickels available for purchase that would be worthy of a report on the 5'oclock news.
The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.
Albert Einstein (14 March 1879--18 April 1955)
Yes silver bullion coins beat generic Morgan’s when big silver run up to $140. Many banked big time (who had been holding stuff bought about 18 mo before at much lower spotprices, then profit 100 pct or higher when the run up hit.
These days slabbed Mexico Libertads hot. In recent auc tries on some them lost bc they bid considerably above CPG.
That would be acceptable.
So, in other words, you don't follow the "MS64 Minimum Investment Grade" rule you invented?
"G04 Minimum Investment Grade"?
For me I will not buy anything below G04 ( my comment above). It’s my money, my preferences (free enterprise).
The MS 64 investment grade is a parameter which was in a 1986 book about RCI (David Hall) as I recall. I had read and studied that book very thoroughly then at show went up to major dealers table circa 1986 “ do you have any slabbed coins MS64 and above?” I had no advanced concept of grading but knew how to pick up nice stuff (preferred non tarnished). He told one of his assistants “get over there help him we have a real live one.” I bought slabbed Walkers, Dollars, Commems. Not much later Saints. Them $20 Libs sometime later. Then for awhile world gold.
Then shortly after that set up my first show (sharing table with friend from coin club). A big gun dealer tried to haggle me way down on a cc $10 MS61 gold piece. I stood my ground on my price that dealer walked away in a huff my friend said “way to show them.” Later in the show a collector bought the coin. I went to a grading seminar in Cali in 1988. Then later got certificate from ANA in Us coin grading.
.
I can honestly say that the great coins that I really had to stretch for are usually the one's with the least regrets, often have some of the greatest pride of ownership and enjoyment, and almost always seem to be the ones that are easiest to sell (at a profit even! gasp).
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
A serious dealer buys all grades Good and above on most series. About Good is acceptable to me, as a collector, for some series where the really desirable collector grades like vf and xf have been priced into unaffordability for the collector who wants to make an album set. Mostly AG Bust dime collection? Why not?
The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.
Albert Einstein (14 March 1879--18 April 1955)
Buying coins for inventory isn't investing.
Many serious dealers don’t buy “all grades Good and above on most series” or anywhere close to that. As just one example, some deal only in uncirculated and/or Proof coins.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
He disagrees.
He also started this thread and then has argued with the original post every since he posted it. Lol
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
He can call it whatever he wants, I'm just saying when the corner store gets a soft drink delivery, they're not investing in Coca-Cola.
How times have changed, I've been to Kagin's but it sure didn't resemble Iowa...
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
We’ll lol have bought them like bu roll deal I got above where did very well.
MS 64 is a benchmark for investment grade from a 1986 book on RCI. Still have it.
I have many coins above that. Considering the confusion by some posters here - I am not pushing just MS64 especially if the player can purchase above that. I have purchased coins below 64 due to plan or budget (like bust and seated stuff). But won’t go below G04.
My "thoughts," as you requested: