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MS64 Minimum Investment Grade - Thoughts?
Cougar1978
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In coin club meeting recently a member gave a report on topic Minimum investment grade (MS64) for most part for his collection is MS64. What are your thoughts on this?
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Would it depend on the coin and/or series?
On a practical basis, such a minimum investment grade would eliminate a lot of coins from consideration. And at the same time, it would be too low for many others. Bottom line, there’s no one-size-fits-all minimum investment grade that makes sense.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It would be on the coin and its affordability.
From what gathered let’s say one has 100 slabbed coins most ideally MS64 or higher. Exceptions might be expensive material the investor can’t afford in MS64. For instance certain expensive dates in a Peace $ collection might be below 64 due to that persons budget, affordability.
As is typical, MFeld's response is much better and more succinct than mine.
MS64 coins are beautiful, there’s no denying that but I agree with MFeld. 64 could be unattainable for many coins, and for others, simply too “low” of a grade.
"Another day, another Collectors Universe forum scrolling session."
- Someone, probably
As a courtesy to Cougar, I did not quote him and responded to his first inquiry (before his edit).
Now, having altered the texture of his question with that subsequent edit, my answer appears out of line with his thread topic.
(Lesson learned. No more being kind.)
Certainly Coins above MS64 would be in that project but others below 64 due to budget reasons. The key is affordability and how much the individual can spend.
It depends on the coin. For example, what do you think the minimum investment grade should be for a 1901-S Barber quarter?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
When it comes to bright and lustrous Franklins; Walkers; Washington quarters; Mercury dimes; Buffalo nickels; red Wheat cents. along with Morgan and Peace dollars I'd think a minimum 'investment grade' would be MS65.
Many buy slabbed bullion coins in 69 and 70. CDN CPG covers many world bullion coins.
For investment purposes, purchasing these in tubes vs slabbed makes better financial sense.
I am not into raw coins in tubes unless project to slab most and bank (like BU Franklin roll). Bought it at show but had to hide in bank bag bc many wanted horn in on the deal. Slabbed most of them down the pike super profit on that deal.
Many world bullion series are covered by CPG. CPG MV for many say in 70 is way above melt specially better dates. The most popular imo are Mexico Libertads. Even CACG has been slabbing them.
Interestingly, true investors don't factor decision making with their feelings yet rather with results.
If you're investing, there are better options than coins.
IMO, YMMV.
Coins are more a speculation than an investment. They just sit there and hope that someone in the future will want them more than people in the present.
That nite silver went to $140 many banked big time on certain silver US or world 1oz slabbed issues. They were getting way above cost the the stuff they held for many months 100 - 200 pct profit.
If they didn't blink. It's less than half that today, you know.
Anecdote: I sold about $8k worth of silver to a guy when melt was $100+. How impressed are you right now with that "investment"?
Many like slabbed bullion coins (many low pop, high demand). Mexico Libertads most popular IMO.
People usually use mS64 as being more affordable than 65 for things like Morgans. That is virtually the opposite of "investment grade" - much as I hate the "I word".
MS64 is a horrible investment grade for a Morgan but perfect for a Draped Bust dollar.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
While one might spend $10,000 on a single coin… and keep in mind $10,000 really does not buy what it once did… one must look at the collector interest and demand in that coin and series. Does the coin reflect quality for the grade? And perhaps even more importantly… How often does the coin surface and how does the coin compare to the surviving population?
Answering these questions is far more important than opining whether MS64 is an investment grade. I will argue that MS64 as a grade for 1879-s through 1882-s Morgans is simply not an investment grade because they are common. While these coins can be promoted because they are readily available, the investment returns will be minimal in contrast to rarity.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Not everybody can afford a MS 64 for certain issues. Consequently many can afford above MS 64 for many issues.
Are you arguing with yourself? You started the thread.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
For real?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Cougar, slow down, you write telegraphically—incomplete sentences and thoughts with too much abbreviating. If you have interest in educating us, as do Mark, Bill, Tom, Fred, Joe, and others, stop writing like a Brooklyn numbers man talks, and stop, and think if your chopped prose is comprehensible to readers. I’d like to know what you write about. I know that you are a cool coin dealer, if what you know is good, then make what you say clear, I don’t read thoughts.
I don't think he meant "consequently".
Not everyone understands this thread. HOWEVER, many understand this thread perfectly.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Buy something from him. Maybe then, he'll decide he cares enough about having you understand him that he'll explain himself.
Would you like to partner with me in an MS64 1796/1797 half dollar? I'll go 2% and you go 98%.
Successful transactions with: wondercoin, Tetromibi, PerryHall, PlatinumDuck, JohnMaben/Pegasus Coin & Jewelry, CoinFlip, coinlieutenant, bigjpst, and joebb21.
I don’t think he meant it, either. I should have gone with my first thought for a reply - “You don’t say😀”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That would be analogous to:
Minimum investment dollars.
Depends. Does he collect Jefferson nickels or draped bust dimes?
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
This
The OP repeatedly ignores that, outside of (quasi) bullion substitutes, coins are collectibles, not tradeable commodities.
Most coin types aren't bought for financial reasons, and won't increase except due to inflation either, regardless of the holder label number. It's also a matter of opinion, but many "investment" coins are already expensive relative to the coin's collectible attributes.
The coin types I think as best meeting the criteria for "investment" candidates generically are common pre-1933 US gold, the most common Morgan dollars, many Peace dollars, and somewhat the 1941-1947 WLH. Also, a few (not many) world NCLT. This doesn't mean I expect the price will go up, only that I infer it's substantially and maybe mostly bought for financial reasons.
Personally, I've bought numerous coins (all non-US) which went up in multiple, but I didn't buy it for this reason, and none are the type of coin hardly anyone (if anyone at all) would buy for "investment" either. Some I owned for only a few years but others I've owned now for 20+ years.
The more expensive Libertad are already relatively expensive, some among the most overpriced coins in the world for the coin attributes. Compare the prices to other coins and you'd understand this if you understood how collectors perceive it relatively.
Not actually scarce either, because you can't compare NCLT to circulating coinage as equivalents. The most relevant measure of scarcity, number in somewhat comparable or high quality, is not low especially for the price.
Virtually no one is buying this NCLT as an alternative to the disproportionate dreck in colonial and 19th century republic coinage which is the Mexican coinage with the actual highest collector preference.
I use 64 as my minimum for reasonably attainable coins because I think they represent the best value compared to higher grades and are more liquid than lower grades when it comes time to sell. I think the vast majority of US coins that we collect fall into this category. It’s absurd to apply a rigid minimum unless one has very deep pockets, and even then, a lot of patience. Note: I still think of 64 as “near gem”.
I happen to really like Barber Quarters so I'll bite. My vote would be for an AU55CAC @ $51,500. So far there is only one of them and it's in a CACG holder, After that the price jumps are significant with a $9,000 bump for a 58. Not that I'm playing in that pool. I'm happy with a date set.
Sort of like bitcoin?
Bitcoin is more of a scam. Technically, it's a pyramid scheme aka a Ponzi scheme.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
And 3.1g of copper for $1000? You could call all collectibles pyramid schemes. Who convinced the "greater fool" that they needed an S VDB cent?
And before you say one is digital and the other is physical, both major auction houses have been selling physical bitcoin of late... which actually sell for multiples of the BTC value they hold. So, those are coin collectors passing a premium not BTC speculators.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
There was a book in the late 80s that said that by someone very important to this forum....
Another thread heading who-knows-where. Full moon?
@PerryHall Laugh all you want, he's right.
Just for posterity, Ponzi schemes and pyramid schemes are different.
A pyramid scheme is a scam in which participants make money primarily by recruiting new members rather than by selling legitimate products or services.
A Ponzi scheme is a fraud in which returns paid to earlier investors come from money contributed by newer investors instead of from actual investment profits.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
I also like Barber quarters and at the moment the question was asked my thought was G6 because my example is only G4 CAC.
Could you send me one of your extra MS65 1916-D Mercs (prefer FB) or any red Lincoln keys in MS65, I really only need the 1922 no D die pair 2, alas the top pop is a solo MS64RD, but that will do nicely.
That’s literally the definition of an investment.
“I really hope people want this stock/bond/house/land/beanie baby more tomorrow that they do today.”
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Sarcasm accepted, yet will answer for others:
My take is on what many call "Widgets"
Coins with common dates and mint marks. Think 1943 Walker VS 1921 or 1881-S Morgan VS 1893.
Not really. If you own rental property, you aren't sitting around waiting for someone to want it more than you do. You generate income.
If you own a small business, you generate income every day. You aren't waiting around to sell it.
Stocks, except for the speculative ones, generate income and pay a dividend. True story, my father bought Kodak stock in 1976 and owned it until they went bankrupt. He actually MADE money on the stock even though he never sold it.
If you want to say that some investments are speculative. I agree. But the definition of investment is not tied to future sale. You can buy bonds or mortgages that pay you monthly but eventually are worth zero when they are paid off.
Do you sell your savings account at a future date?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Based on comments read on this message board, I think some people use the idea that coins are an investment to justify to themselves the amount of money they spend on them.
Yes!
Especially when explaining a large purchase to our significant others.
It depends upon the coin. I paid less than $4,000 for each of these coins. Of course that was long ago, so compound interest might make these pieces not look all that great as investments. But there has been the enjoyment and entertainment factor which is worth something to me.
The Chain Cent is over graded as a VF-30. The 1796 Quarter is a VF-25.
Sorry, @Creg - I had to LOL this comment. If you're seeking education from this guy, you'll be misinformed and, by comparing him with other valuable members, you tarnish their reputation!
"She comes out of the sun in a silk dress,
running like a water color in the rain...."