@sellistore. You might as well tell me to collect the hummel. I have zero experience. If you have the time could you post reference material for this. sounds very interesting. james
All eBay did was help collectors understand just how common certain coins and collectibles are.
Many collectibles have suffered the same fate - beanie babies is another example. I would argue NFTs are the latest “collectible” to skyrocket and then collapse.
I think coins have a lot going - history, precious metals, worldwide appeal (ancients and world), artistry and collector history going back 100s of years.
But I don’t consider coins an investment - collecting is an hobby. I am very careful about how much of my finances I tie up in coins. $200,000 into a collectible including coins would be far too much for my comfort level, though for D.L. Hansen or some board members here would not be a significant sum.
His Hummel’s were not common…but this generation for the most part seems to have little to no interest in antiquities and seem to value ‘virtual products’ highly which make no sense to me. My stepson is one of those who thinks NFT’s and Crypto are ‘all that and more.’ Even today I see many ‘rare’ coin and currency items being either propped up or destroyed due to the internet. Last year I purchased a ‘rare’ duplicate serial $1 note on a major auction sight. Only a ‘few pairs’ of the error duplicates had ever been found. Now there is a website going that rejoices in new ‘duplicates’ being found and as of a few weeks ago 144 duplicate notes had already been paired. So my ‘cool currency duplicate’ isn’t so cool or rare any more and the value is plummeting. As the weeks go by more are being found. Really makes me wonder if buying ‘rare’ coins is a safe bet as more and more ‘secret hoards’ seem to be discovered, rendering ‘amazing coins’ as just common dates now.
All eBay did was help collectors understand just how common certain coins and collectibles are.
Many collectibles have suffered the same fate - beanie babies is another example. I would argue NFTs are the latest “collectible” to skyrocket and then collapse.
I think coins have a lot going - history, precious metals, worldwide appeal (ancients and world), artistry and collector history going back 100s of years.
But I don’t consider coins an investment - collecting is an hobby. I am very careful about how much of my finances I tie up in coins. $200,000 into a collectible including coins would be far too much for my comfort level, though for D.L. Hansen or some board members here would not be a significant sum.
His Hummel’s were not common…but this generation for the most part seems to have little to no interest in antiquities and seem to value ‘virtual products’ highly which make no sense to me. My stepson is one of those who thinks NFT’s and Crypto are ‘all that and more.’ Even today I see many ‘rare’ coin and currency items being either propped up or destroyed due to the internet. Last year I purchased a ‘rare’ duplicate serial $1 note on a major auction sight. Only a ‘few pairs’ of the error duplicates had ever been found. Now there is a website going that rejoices in new ‘duplicates’ being found and as of a few weeks ago 144 duplicate notes had already been paired. So my ‘cool currency duplicate’ isn’t so cool or rare any more and the value is plummeting. As the weeks go by more are being found. Really makes me wonder if buying ‘rare’ coins is a safe bet as more and more ‘secret hoards’ seem to be discovered, rendering ‘amazing coins’ as just common dates now.
Supply is one side - demand is another. Rarity does not equal value if there is no demand/interest.
There is no surefire way to determine the population of something like an error coin or note. Or the survival rate of southern branch mint gold coins.
Rare coins are not a safe bet and not an investment - don’t tie up your financial future in coins or any other collectible. If you want to invest, look at debt and equity markets or real estate and focus on the fundamentals of cash flow.
Rare coins are not a safe bet and not an investment - don’t tie up your financial future in coins or any other collectible. If you want to invest, look at debt and equity markets or real estate and focus on the fundamentals of cash flow.
Real estate? Another ‘rich man’s game.’ Condos in Florida WERE a great investment…till the Surfside collapse….and then the governor decided to make everyone follow HIS guidelines and policies which is causing the market to get killed due to huge assessments. Debt and equity markets? Unless you have big money those are another rich man’s game. When I buy a coin it doesn’t require a mortgage, insurance, nor taxes to enjoy….. I guess you and I are on two sides of the spectrum.
@safari_dude . i think you and i may be similar in some ways. I am not a rich man. When I buy a rare coin I have a fiducuary obligation to my family that i am not just throwing money away. I have only spent more than $500 dollars on a coin once in my life (57 years collecting).
Having said that though, i understand the point of view that buying coins is in my (and many other peoples) view NOT a good investment. Coins have to be held a substantial time to have a chance at profit (usually). there is no interest earned, often times the value the coin increases is slight considering the amount of time held. If you tell me you have never lost money on a coin you either started collecting Saturday or you are lying.
I look to my business options when I am looking to MAKE money. I look to my coin collection when I want to RETAIN money. Coins are just not that liquid for someone like me but have on several occasions been the rubberband that helps me get by or the asset that saved a rainy day. Good luck in all you endevours, collecting and otherwise. James
@seatedlib3991 said: @sellistore. You might as well tell me to collect the hummel. I have zero experience. If you have the time could you post reference material for this. sounds very interesting. james
The best reference for price on these is probably the Heritage archives. As far as catalogs go, I prefer Haxby but the Bowers/Whitman series is good, too. These will show close to 100% of everything that was bank issued but does not include private, state county or municipal notes. Both show some pricing and Bowers/Whitman shows rarities as well.
If you are just collecting one or a few states, you can purchase just the volumes that cover those. Haxby (published 1987) is in four volumes while Whitman has published eight of ten from their ongoing series. Use Heritage archives to get an idea of how states are priced now compared to other states.
If the South has appeal to you, there's "Southern States Currency" by Hugh Shull which is a good, inexpensive reference for State issues of the South, mostly Civil War period Avoid the common type material which has doubled or tripled in price over the past few years and look to cherrypick rare varieties or types which can still be found at favorable prices, sometimes even from dealers that are knowledgeable in pricing but where demand for the rare stuff has dropped from a few customers to none. The same is true on a state by state basis, but pricing for each state is dictated by the number of serious collectors, how deep their pockets (or perceptions) are and who is participating at any given time.
Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.
@safari_dude said:
I think eBay has helped to destroy value in many collectibles
What Ebay mostly did for collectibles is provide a marketplace so that people who didn't want to find a store or place an newpaper ad suddenly had an easy way to get rid of stuff, thus exposing the real scarcity of the item. An item you paid $500 for was suddenly $30 because everyone learned that there were dozens just like them that people were happy to get rid of at any price
@safari_dude said
Debt and equity markets? Unless you have big money those are another rich man’s game.
Really? Investing a few bucks in an S&P ETF requires big money? Many would be surprised
I always enjoy the market banter on the forum. You'd be foolish not to look and seek out different opinions.
I started dabbling in bust quarter varieties with the understanding that it's a financially unobtainable goal to complete the set. My heart would like to continue, but the market is telling me to pause. I collect in the shallow end of the pool and have attempted to cherry-pick along the way. (Bust quarter variety collectors must be a R-7 rarity)
I keep going back and forth with how best to move some bullion products. Most experts think gold is going to the moon...!
NorthStar
@safari_dude said:
I think eBay has helped to destroy value in many collectibles
What Ebay mostly did for collectibles is provide a marketplace so that people who didn't want to find a store or place an newpaper ad suddenly had an easy way to get rid of stuff, thus exposing the real scarcity of the item. An item you paid $500 for was suddenly $30 because everyone learned that there were dozens just like them that people were happy to get rid of at any price
@safari_dude said
Debt and equity markets? Unless you have big money those are another rich man’s game.
Really? Investing a few bucks in an S&P ETF requires big money? Many would be surprised
Investing a few bucks? Yeah, I would be surprised. That’s like buying one or two shares of a stock and thinking you’re going to be able to retire from it….and penny stocks are just a gamble that results in a loss a majority of the time. Believe me, I’ve tried it all……and if making money was that easy, everyone would be doing it.
@seatedlib3991 said: @safari_dude . i think you and i may be similar in some ways. I am not a rich man. When I buy a rare coin I have a fiducuary obligation to my family that i am not just throwing money away. I have only spent more than $500 dollars on a coin once in my life (57 years collecting).
Having said that though, i understand the point of view that buying coins is in my (and many other peoples) view NOT a good investment. Coins have to be held a substantial time to have a chance at profit (usually). there is no interest earned, often times the value the coin increases is slight considering the amount of time held. If you tell me you have never lost money on a coin you either started collecting Saturday or you are lying.
I look to my business options when I am looking to MAKE money. I look to my coin collection when I want to RETAIN money. Coins are just not that liquid for someone like me but have on several occasions been the rubberband that helps me get by or the asset that saved a rainy day. Good luck in all you endevours, collecting and otherwise. James
Thanks…and yes we think alike. I have several ‘modern gold coins’ I bought before the run up in gold prices so I have made some nice returns on those, but again, it’s certainly not as often as I’d like. Cheers!
@sellitstore . Thank you for that comprehensive answer. 25 Below today so gives me something to look into. I have never looked at the Heritage currency archives. Somehow never even occurred to me. Also made note of the books mentioned if something develops. thanks again. James
Rare coins are not a safe bet and not an investment - don’t tie up your financial future in coins or any other collectible. If you want to invest, look at debt and equity markets or real estate and focus on the fundamentals of cash flow.
Real estate? Another ‘rich man’s game.’ Condos in Florida WERE a great investment…till the Surfside collapse….and then the governor decided to make everyone follow HIS guidelines and policies which is causing the market to get killed due to huge assessments. Debt and equity markets? Unless you have big money those are another rich man’s game. When I buy a coin it doesn’t require a mortgage, insurance, nor taxes to enjoy….. I guess you and I are on two sides of the spectrum.
Mutual funds allow almost anyone to invest in debt and equity markets. Look at the Acorn app. You can invest by simply rounding up your purchases to the nearest dollar.
If the market is really falling, that merely presents opportunity for buyers to finally acquire coins that they have long desired but could not afford. Sellers, should they choose to do so, can liquidate stale inventory and generate funds that they can use to purchase other, better quality coins at lower prices that will give them a better chance of reselling at a profit.
As long as people still want to steal coins, the market can't be that soft. The day they stop then you can worry coins have no value, other than face value.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
@BLUEJAYWAY said:
As long as people still want to steal coins, the market can't be that soft. The day they stop then you can worry coins have no value, other than face value.
You're equating soft with dead.
The market can be very very soft and people still steal them. It's just not dead. When your cost basis is zero, even a weak market is profitable.
Totally false from my point of view. I have had to pay more than I really wanted to recently on several coins AND currency as well. Bust halves have gone through the roof for example. Barber coinage is also way up over where I feel it should be. Morgans are just about right. Early copper has gotten pretty pricey. Those are my main areas of interest, except bust halves, and only because they are so crazy expensive now.
Best regards, Dwayne F. Sessom Ebay ID: V-Nickel-Coins
I am still a little shocked how high most Seated Quarters went last night at the Heritage Tuesday/Wednesday auction 1. Usually when i have 24 lots in my target list I land a coin.
Anyone here win a Seated Quarter? I saw all my bids get beat and some make me wonder how far off the cdn numbers must be when even the cac nuimber is to low on non cac coins. James
I think collectors need to realize that the age of coin shows is coming to a close. Suppose I want a 1942 Proof half - I can likely find 100-200 examples of various grades online right now. The pick of the litter could be mine almost instantly. I went to FUN last year, and for the life of me can't remember seeing more than five Walkers in Proof of any date, let alone nice ones.
This is true for nearly every coin. Shows can't keep up, and they're more for networking now than anything else.
Same can be said for W quarters. 😎
There were so many W quarters at fun the other day, it was almost nauseating.
Really? I will ignore the nauseating reference for the moment and ask for clarification on "so many".😉
I thought most dealers had no interest in W quarters. My buddy who always has a table at the Whitman shows in Baltimore has told me he never gets any inquiries about W quarters and never sees any for sale at the shows.
He has tried to sell my W quarters sets and raws with no success to the point where he just gave them back to me.
My local Flea Market coin dealers have no interest in selling W quarters and claim no one asks for them. Ditto for my local B&M dealers.
I know of one dealer at FUN who always has a table and who went "ALL IN" on the W quarters but I didn't see him on the dealer list this year.
Please clarify if you mean 1 or 2 dealers had many W quarters or if there were many dealers selling W quarters.
Up until now, Ebay seemed to be the only market for the W quarters.
Minimum of at least 10 different tables had W quarters, and I saw everything from raw to first week of discovery & early find labels. I’m not saying anyone was buying or even looking at the coins, but they were abundant. I said to myself at the show that I hadn’t seen this many W quarters since about mid 2019 (Baltimore show I believe) where there were large amounts of raw Lowell’s.
I have no clue what they were asking for any of them, I didn’t inquire.
@1madman said:
Minimum of at least 10 different tables had W quarters, and I saw everything from raw to first week of discovery & early find labels. I’m not saying anyone was buying or even looking at the coins, but they were abundant. I said to myself at the show that I hadn’t seen this many W quarters since about mid 2019 (Baltimore show I believe) where there were large amounts of raw Lowell’s.
I have no clue what they were asking for any of them, I didn’t inquire.
We are NOWHERE near past bubble peaks in the PM-related coins or pure numismatics. A simple check of the PCGS 3000 Index will confirm that.
I went back and checked the sub-indices of that index to see how much they are up from their 2020 or recent (last 5-7 years) LOW price. So that gives you an idea of how much they have run.
Here's the returns from the lows of the past decade (usually 2019-20) through 2024:
Gold Spot Price Index..............up 70%
Generic Gold Coin Index…......up 100%
Mint State Rare Gold Coin….. up 46%
Proof Gold Index……................up 42%
Mint State Type Index……........up 21%
Proof Type Coin Index…..........up 26%
Silver Spot Price…....................up 107%
Morgan & Peace Dollar…........up 27%
Silver & Gold Comm Index…...up 23%
20th Century Coin Index…......up 47%
Key Dates & Rarities Index…...up 48%
PCGS 3000….............................up 34%
A simple equal-weight average would mean the PCGS 3000 would be up 50.6% so some of the indices must have a larger weight than 1/9th each, which makes sense.
Note the Gold Spot, Gold Generic, and Silver Spot indices are all up huge from their lows.
Stating that generalized thinking is always problematic is incorrect and therefore, problematic. Ditch the "always" in favor of something less exaggerated.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@safari_dude said:
I think eBay has helped to destroy value in many collectibles. My dad had over 1,000 Hummels before he passed away in 1995. They were worth well over $200K at the time…and now if my mom was lucky, she MIGHT get $10-12,000 for the entire collection. Hummels that were worth $1,000 then now fetch $50-$75 on a GOOD day on eBay. My dad would be heartbroken if he were still alive and saw what his ‘investments’ were worth now. I have seen it with several coins I bought when I was younger that were thought to be valuable. In 1977 when I was 19 I purchased a 1949S ‘BU’ Franklin half from a local brick and mortar store for $300 (I mowed a LOT of lawns and worked at an airport car rental agency for my money). I would be lucky to get $75 for that coin today as it’s just not that spectacular of a coin like it was back then…and FBL’s weren’t even in the equation. Times change, values change, and hopefully we have a few winners along with all our losers….. I see coins in GC, HA, and S &B’s auctions selling for $75K, $250K and some higher with a LOT of bidders who aren’t shy about running prices up. See, the folks with money don’t care how much they spend to get what they want, while others are happy to score a $150 coin for $125. If you want a particular coin it’s like anything else and you will do what is necessary to hopefully make that purchase happen. We all want a good deal, it’s just with all the different grading services, counterfeits, and other factors weighing in, they are getting tougher to find. JMHO of course.
All eBay did was help collectors understand just how common certain coins and collectibles are.
Many collectibles have suffered the same fate - beanie babies is another example. I would argue NFTs are the latest “collectible” to skyrocket and then collapse.
I think coins have a lot going - history, precious metals, worldwide appeal (ancients and world), artistry and collector history going back 100s of years.
But I don’t consider coins an investment - collecting is an hobby. I am very careful about how much of my finances I tie up in coins. $200,000 into a collectible including coins would be far too much for my comfort level, though for D.L. Hansen or some board members here would not be a significant sum.
Agreed, it all depends on where you're coming from, budget-wise. It was easy to become enamored with (for example) the Mercs coming back in MS66 from the early days at PCGS, until with more experience, one realizes how common they are even at lofty gem levels. Totally fun to collect, just don't overspend on them.
@1madman said:
Minimum of at least 10 different tables had W quarters, and I saw everything from raw to first week of discovery & early find labels. I’m not saying anyone was buying or even looking at the coins, but they were abundant. I said to myself at the show that I hadn’t seen this many W quarters since about mid 2019 (Baltimore show I believe) where there were large amounts of raw Lowell’s.
I have no clue what they were asking for any of them, I didn’t inquire.
Wow! Their popularity is growing! Love it!😎
Or declining because they can't move the inventory... 😉
@Coin Finder said:
Lots of generic pre 33 gold in 61,62 63 and 64 grade and raw is selling close to melt because some wholesalers are >inundated by it right now.
The best market indicator I have found of a slowdown is when certain coin dealers restart sending their emails after not hearing from them for a while.
MLAeBayNumismatics: "The greatest hobby in the world!"
@1madman said:
Minimum of at least 10 different tables had W quarters, and I saw everything from raw to first week of discovery & early find labels. I’m not saying anyone was buying or even looking at the coins, but they were abundant. I said to myself at the show that I hadn’t seen this many W quarters since about mid 2019 (Baltimore show I believe) where there were large amounts of raw Lowell’s.
I have no clue what they were asking for any of them, I didn’t inquire.
Wow! Their popularity is growing! Love it!😎
Or declining because they can't move the inventory... 😉
The fact that dealers at a coin show are offering them for sale is a positive not a negative. 😎
The attitude of many members on here and many of the dealers I have interacted with over the years (after the initial release dates) have been extremely dismissive of the W quarters.
They claim no one asks for them thus no reason to stock them.
Well, now at the FUN show we here a story that there were many tables of W quarters.
Unfortunately, it was reported by a member who was "nauseated" by looking at them. 🙄
I would appreciate a report from some of those dealers at the show who had inventory and read their feedback of their experiences selling W quarters.
Obviously, they believed in them enough to buy them for resale.🤑
@PeakRarities said:
In all fairness, I don't know If I would classify OP's mentioning of the depression glassware and Hummels as a >"comparison", just examples of markets that softened considerably, and never recovered.
The 2021-22 bubble in NFTs, sports and baseball cards, and other items from stay-at-home-bidding have all cratered or collapsed.
What I've seen with coins and currency is a PLATEUING of prices....still going up but not at the rate of 2020-22. However, because we didn't have a bubble in our prices -- we went up 30-50%, they went up 300-5,000% !! -- we are in much better shape.
The newbies who came into coins and bills went after generic Morgans and other low-priced stuff (no interest in Saints at $2,000 or up)....they also liked exotic Silver and Gold Certificates (if not too pricey) in decent condition and went after Large Denomination Bills (the Greensheet had a front-cover story on it a few years ago) driving the prices up very strongly.
Heritage auction results from tonight, not what I would call soft:
Lot 4378 AU53 Chain cent S-2 $156k, brought $102k in 2020
Lot 4379 AU50 periods S-4 Chain cent $119,400, brought $88k 2013
Lot 4381 AU 53+ s-14 1793 Liberty cap cent $264000 brought $192k 8/22
Yesterday, I sat and watched live 783 bust halves go to auction at Heritage - the Towers Collection, Part II. Bidding was very active and the auction took many hours. But I watched until about 1834……. I wanted to get a sense of where the market stood. 117 of them were CACed the rest were not. As I watched HA Live, a halve would come up and the price guide values were listed just above ‘Cut Bid’ on the live screen (nice touch to get a sense of ‘value’).
Here is what I observed. Most of the non-CAC halves were going for CPG and PCGS retail price guide prices when BP was added. A few didn’t and some went higher but on average it seemed like they were going for published retail guide prices. The CAC ones were through the roof. I bid on 6 that fit what I like. I had aggressive bids way over CPG prices, and I won one, and was the under bidder on only 1 other. I would watch these things go buy the highest number I could pay and have a reasonable chance for resale and keep going sometimes over what I could resale them for and make money. It was impressive just how strong the bidding was.
So sure, like always, the market might be slowing down, especially for common and lesser pricey coins or bullion coins like generic pre-33 gold. But the quality market is not slowing down. In fact, alot of the CPG retail prices are too low for the realities of how much harder to obtain CAC coins really cost……….
Lots of generic pre 33 gold in 61,62 63 and 64 grade and raw is selling close to melt because some wholesalers are inundated by it right now.
With CACs?
I wouldn’t think many generic pre 33 gold in lower mint state grades would be worth the trouble and expense to submit for a CAC sticker.
I should have said CAC and CACG. At FUN I saw a whole display case of CACG pre 33 gold in lower mint state grades. I couldn't tell you if they were generic.
@FlyingAl said:
Ha. I wish.
I think collectors need to realize that the age of coin shows is coming to a close. Suppose I want a 1942 Proof half - I >can likely find 100-200 examples of various grades online right now. The pick of the litter could be mine almost >instantly. I went to FUN last year, and for the life of me can't remember seeing more than five Walkers in Proof of >any date, let alone nice ones.
This is true for nearly every coin. Shows can't keep up, and they're more for networking now than anything else.
No argument, this will impact the TOTAL number of shows hard-core collectors attend. 40 years ago, they HAD to go there. Now, it's more optional for many (a trend accelerated by Covid).
I know for myself it's a chance to re-aquaint with old friends...goto a new city or a city I like spending a few days in....see lots of stuff up close...lectures...visit the sites or friends in the area.
@BillJones said:
The trouble with coins like Franklin Half Dollars is that they were saved in quantity. There are large numbers of >them in Mint State. That gives promoters many opportunities to push them as “investments.” They can’t do that with >many earlier coins because they don’t exist in numbers that support a marketing program. If you buy when the >promotion is in full string, you will end up losing money. These things go in cycles. There was a similar situation circa >1989. I image that you bought sometime later than that.
With Hummels, you are talking a specific niche that of course was never an "investment" but just a piece of art that you should have loved and if anything would be called a "speculation" if you bought them in bulk to appreciate.
Beanie-Babies comes to mind. When items are solely dependent on someone else buying.....when they throw off no cash flows (dividends or interest)....when there is no floor to the underlying item or coin.....that's when you see prices collapse.
At least with PM-related coins -- Saints, Morgans, etc. -- you have a floor with the underlying metal content.
Comments
@sellistore. You might as well tell me to collect the hummel. I have zero experience. If you have the time could you post reference material for this. sounds very interesting. james
…………….
His Hummel’s were not common…but this generation for the most part seems to have little to no interest in antiquities and seem to value ‘virtual products’ highly which make no sense to me. My stepson is one of those who thinks NFT’s and Crypto are ‘all that and more.’ Even today I see many ‘rare’ coin and currency items being either propped up or destroyed due to the internet. Last year I purchased a ‘rare’ duplicate serial $1 note on a major auction sight. Only a ‘few pairs’ of the error duplicates had ever been found. Now there is a website going that rejoices in new ‘duplicates’ being found and as of a few weeks ago 144 duplicate notes had already been paired. So my ‘cool currency duplicate’ isn’t so cool or rare any more and the value is plummeting. As the weeks go by more are being found. Really makes me wonder if buying ‘rare’ coins is a safe bet as more and more ‘secret hoards’ seem to be discovered, rendering ‘amazing coins’ as just common dates now.
Supply is one side - demand is another. Rarity does not equal value if there is no demand/interest.
There is no surefire way to determine the population of something like an error coin or note. Or the survival rate of southern branch mint gold coins.
Rare coins are not a safe bet and not an investment - don’t tie up your financial future in coins or any other collectible. If you want to invest, look at debt and equity markets or real estate and focus on the fundamentals of cash flow.
Real estate? Another ‘rich man’s game.’ Condos in Florida WERE a great investment…till the Surfside collapse….and then the governor decided to make everyone follow HIS guidelines and policies which is causing the market to get killed due to huge assessments. Debt and equity markets? Unless you have big money those are another rich man’s game. When I buy a coin it doesn’t require a mortgage, insurance, nor taxes to enjoy….. I guess you and I are on two sides of the spectrum.
@safari_dude . i think you and i may be similar in some ways. I am not a rich man. When I buy a rare coin I have a fiducuary obligation to my family that i am not just throwing money away. I have only spent more than $500 dollars on a coin once in my life (57 years collecting).
Having said that though, i understand the point of view that buying coins is in my (and many other peoples) view NOT a good investment. Coins have to be held a substantial time to have a chance at profit (usually). there is no interest earned, often times the value the coin increases is slight considering the amount of time held. If you tell me you have never lost money on a coin you either started collecting Saturday or you are lying.
I look to my business options when I am looking to MAKE money. I look to my coin collection when I want to RETAIN money. Coins are just not that liquid for someone like me but have on several occasions been the rubberband that helps me get by or the asset that saved a rainy day. Good luck in all you endevours, collecting and otherwise. James
The best reference for price on these is probably the Heritage archives. As far as catalogs go, I prefer Haxby but the Bowers/Whitman series is good, too. These will show close to 100% of everything that was bank issued but does not include private, state county or municipal notes. Both show some pricing and Bowers/Whitman shows rarities as well.
If you are just collecting one or a few states, you can purchase just the volumes that cover those. Haxby (published 1987) is in four volumes while Whitman has published eight of ten from their ongoing series. Use Heritage archives to get an idea of how states are priced now compared to other states.
If the South has appeal to you, there's "Southern States Currency" by Hugh Shull which is a good, inexpensive reference for State issues of the South, mostly Civil War period Avoid the common type material which has doubled or tripled in price over the past few years and look to cherrypick rare varieties or types which can still be found at favorable prices, sometimes even from dealers that are knowledgeable in pricing but where demand for the rare stuff has dropped from a few customers to none. The same is true on a state by state basis, but pricing for each state is dictated by the number of serious collectors, how deep their pockets (or perceptions) are and who is participating at any given time.
What Ebay mostly did for collectibles is provide a marketplace so that people who didn't want to find a store or place an newpaper ad suddenly had an easy way to get rid of stuff, thus exposing the real scarcity of the item. An item you paid $500 for was suddenly $30 because everyone learned that there were dozens just like them that people were happy to get rid of at any price
Really? Investing a few bucks in an S&P ETF requires big money? Many would be surprised
I always enjoy the market banter on the forum. You'd be foolish not to look and seek out different opinions.
I started dabbling in bust quarter varieties with the understanding that it's a financially unobtainable goal to complete the set. My heart would like to continue, but the market is telling me to pause. I collect in the shallow end of the pool and have attempted to cherry-pick along the way. (Bust quarter variety collectors must be a R-7 rarity)
I keep going back and forth with how best to move some bullion products. Most experts think gold is going to the moon...!
NorthStar
Investing a few bucks? Yeah, I would be surprised. That’s like buying one or two shares of a stock and thinking you’re going to be able to retire from it….and penny stocks are just a gamble that results in a loss a majority of the time. Believe me, I’ve tried it all……and if making money was that easy, everyone would be doing it.
Thanks…and yes we think alike. I have several ‘modern gold coins’ I bought before the run up in gold prices so I have made some nice returns on those, but again, it’s certainly not as often as I’d like. Cheers!
@sellitstore . Thank you for that comprehensive answer. 25 Below today so gives me something to look into. I have never looked at the Heritage currency archives. Somehow never even occurred to me. Also made note of the books mentioned if something develops. thanks again. James
Mutual funds allow almost anyone to invest in debt and equity markets. Look at the Acorn app. You can invest by simply rounding up your purchases to the nearest dollar.
Put two Collectors in a room get three opinions.
Put two Dealers in room get four opinions.
Put four opinions in a room and you have a forum.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
If the market is really falling, that merely presents opportunity for buyers to finally acquire coins that they have long desired but could not afford. Sellers, should they choose to do so, can liquidate stale inventory and generate funds that they can use to purchase other, better quality coins at lower prices that will give them a better chance of reselling at a profit.
As long as people still want to steal coins, the market can't be that soft. The day they stop then you can worry coins have no value, other than face value.
You're equating soft with dead.
The market can be very very soft and people still steal them. It's just not dead. When your cost basis is zero, even a weak market is profitable.
Not for any of the stuff I collect… sheesh
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Coin Photographer.
Totally false from my point of view. I have had to pay more than I really wanted to recently on several coins AND currency as well. Bust halves have gone through the roof for example. Barber coinage is also way up over where I feel it should be. Morgans are just about right. Early copper has gotten pretty pricey. Those are my main areas of interest, except bust halves, and only because they are so crazy expensive now.
Dwayne F. Sessom
Ebay ID: V-Nickel-Coins
I am still a little shocked how high most Seated Quarters went last night at the Heritage Tuesday/Wednesday auction 1. Usually when i have 24 lots in my target list I land a coin.
Anyone here win a Seated Quarter? I saw all my bids get beat and some make me wonder how far off the cdn numbers must be when even the cac nuimber is to low on non cac coins. James
Really? I will ignore the nauseating reference for the moment and ask for clarification on "so many".😉
I thought most dealers had no interest in W quarters. My buddy who always has a table at the Whitman shows in Baltimore has told me he never gets any inquiries about W quarters and never sees any for sale at the shows.
He has tried to sell my W quarters sets and raws with no success to the point where he just gave them back to me.
My local Flea Market coin dealers have no interest in selling W quarters and claim no one asks for them. Ditto for my local B&M dealers.
I know of one dealer at FUN who always has a table and who went "ALL IN" on the W quarters but I didn't see him on the dealer list this year.
Please clarify if you mean 1 or 2 dealers had many W quarters or if there were many dealers selling W quarters.
Up until now, Ebay seemed to be the only market for the W quarters.
Minimum of at least 10 different tables had W quarters, and I saw everything from raw to first week of discovery & early find labels. I’m not saying anyone was buying or even looking at the coins, but they were abundant. I said to myself at the show that I hadn’t seen this many W quarters since about mid 2019 (Baltimore show I believe) where there were large amounts of raw Lowell’s.
I have no clue what they were asking for any of them, I didn’t inquire.
Generalized thinking is always problematic
Wow! Their popularity is growing! Love it!😎
We are NOWHERE near past bubble peaks in the PM-related coins or pure numismatics. A simple check of the PCGS 3000 Index will confirm that.
I went back and checked the sub-indices of that index to see how much they are up from their 2020 or recent (last 5-7 years) LOW price. So that gives you an idea of how much they have run.
Here's the returns from the lows of the past decade (usually 2019-20) through 2024:
Gold Spot Price Index..............up 70%
Generic Gold Coin Index…......up 100%
Mint State Rare Gold Coin….. up 46%
Proof Gold Index……................up 42%
Mint State Type Index……........up 21%
Proof Type Coin Index…..........up 26%
Silver Spot Price…....................up 107%
Morgan & Peace Dollar…........up 27%
Silver & Gold Comm Index…...up 23%
20th Century Coin Index…......up 47%
Key Dates & Rarities Index…...up 48%
PCGS 3000….............................up 34%
A simple equal-weight average would mean the PCGS 3000 would be up 50.6% so some of the indices must have a larger weight than 1/9th each, which makes sense.
Note the Gold Spot, Gold Generic, and Silver Spot indices are all up huge from their lows.
Heritage auction going on now, and many of the coins are exceeding the PCGS price guide……and with buyer’s fee are going way over.
.> @Catbert said:
Or a brat!(wurst)!> @RobertScotLover said:
Stating that generalized thinking is always problematic is incorrect and therefore, problematic. Ditch the "always" in favor of something less exaggerated.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Agreed, it all depends on where you're coming from, budget-wise. It was easy to become enamored with (for example) the Mercs coming back in MS66 from the early days at PCGS, until with more experience, one realizes how common they are even at lofty gem levels. Totally fun to collect, just don't overspend on them.
Or declining because they can't move the inventory... 😉
I’ll take a dark beer to go with that!
And the brown mustard, too!!
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Fairmont.
I predict we will surpass 1979 values in 2025....finally.
Ebb and flow,ebb and flow.
So goes the markets we all know.
Earlier today, you posted “Generalized thinking is always problematic”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The bids @ Heritage right now are strong.
I know that drinking is problematic. It hasn't stopped me. 😄🤣
I find it hard to compare gold coins to Hummels. Drop a Hummel it’s toast. Drop a gold coin it’s still gold
Lafayette Grading Set
The best market indicator I have found of a slowdown is when certain coin dealers restart sending their emails after not hearing from them for a while.
The fact that dealers at a coin show are offering them for sale is a positive not a negative. 😎
The attitude of many members on here and many of the dealers I have interacted with over the years (after the initial release dates) have been extremely dismissive of the W quarters.
They claim no one asks for them thus no reason to stock them.
Well, now at the FUN show we here a story that there were many tables of W quarters.
Unfortunately, it was reported by a member who was "nauseated" by looking at them. 🙄
I would appreciate a report from some of those dealers at the show who had inventory and read their feedback of their experiences selling W quarters.
Obviously, they believed in them enough to buy them for resale.🤑
The 2021-22 bubble in NFTs, sports and baseball cards, and other items from stay-at-home-bidding have all cratered or collapsed.
What I've seen with coins and currency is a PLATEUING of prices....still going up but not at the rate of 2020-22. However, because we didn't have a bubble in our prices -- we went up 30-50%, they went up 300-5,000% !! -- we are in much better shape.
The newbies who came into coins and bills went after generic Morgans and other low-priced stuff (no interest in Saints at $2,000 or up)....they also liked exotic Silver and Gold Certificates (if not too pricey) in decent condition and went after Large Denomination Bills (the Greensheet had a front-cover story on it a few years ago) driving the prices up very strongly.
All stuff costing < $1,000 and often under $500.
Heritage auction results from tonight, not what I would call soft:
Lot 4378 AU53 Chain cent S-2 $156k, brought $102k in 2020
Lot 4379 AU50 periods S-4 Chain cent $119,400, brought $88k 2013
Lot 4381 AU 53+ s-14 1793 Liberty cap cent $264000 brought $192k 8/22
And many more.
With CACs?
I wouldn’t think many generic pre 33 gold in lower mint state grades would be worth the trouble and expense to submit for a CAC sticker.
Yesterday, I sat and watched live 783 bust halves go to auction at Heritage - the Towers Collection, Part II. Bidding was very active and the auction took many hours. But I watched until about 1834……. I wanted to get a sense of where the market stood. 117 of them were CACed the rest were not. As I watched HA Live, a halve would come up and the price guide values were listed just above ‘Cut Bid’ on the live screen (nice touch to get a sense of ‘value’).
Here is what I observed. Most of the non-CAC halves were going for CPG and PCGS retail price guide prices when BP was added. A few didn’t and some went higher but on average it seemed like they were going for published retail guide prices. The CAC ones were through the roof. I bid on 6 that fit what I like. I had aggressive bids way over CPG prices, and I won one, and was the under bidder on only 1 other. I would watch these things go buy the highest number I could pay and have a reasonable chance for resale and keep going sometimes over what I could resale them for and make money. It was impressive just how strong the bidding was.
So sure, like always, the market might be slowing down, especially for common and lesser pricey coins or bullion coins like generic pre-33 gold. But the quality market is not slowing down. In fact, alot of the CPG retail prices are too low for the realities of how much harder to obtain CAC coins really cost……….
Best, DM
I should have said CAC and CACG. At FUN I saw a whole display case of CACG pre 33 gold in lower mint state grades. I couldn't tell you if they were generic.
I must have missed this...was it a lower-grade coin, though any 1870 CC usually get tons of attention ?
No argument, this will impact the TOTAL number of shows hard-core collectors attend. 40 years ago, they HAD to go there. Now, it's more optional for many (a trend accelerated by Covid).
I know for myself it's a chance to re-aquaint with old friends...goto a new city or a city I like spending a few days in....see lots of stuff up close...lectures...visit the sites or friends in the area.
With Hummels, you are talking a specific niche that of course was never an "investment" but just a piece of art that you should have loved and if anything would be called a "speculation" if you bought them in bulk to appreciate.
Beanie-Babies comes to mind. When items are solely dependent on someone else buying.....when they throw off no cash flows (dividends or interest)....when there is no floor to the underlying item or coin.....that's when you see prices collapse.
At least with PM-related coins -- Saints, Morgans, etc. -- you have a floor with the underlying metal content.