@Goldbully said: Anyone seen or heard of this ½oz. 1794-2019 Gold Flowing Hair private issue up for auction at GC?
Dates fit nicely between stars and FH Liberty looks a little different from the 1oz. version, I believe.
@Goldbully said: Anyone seen or heard of this ½oz. 1794-2019 Gold Flowing Hair private issue up for auction at GC?
Dates fit nicely between stars and FH Liberty looks a little different from the 1oz. version, I believe.
Not sure if the gold was released individually, but it was part of a three-piece set. Reference
says to call in for price...means i cant afford it? lol
Lol. More likely it just means the price is tied to bullion
Because bullion prices are not posted, and updated real time, all day, every day by govmint? No. It's likely because the product is expensive, and they are using it to prospect for new customers, so they don't want people to see the price and move on.
Private mint issues like this are sold on TV at huge premiums. If it's in a GC auction, its price and value is not tied to bullion. It's not a low mint state generic double eagle.
NOT a bullion product:
"Only 500 of these Smithsonian-authorized America’s First Silver Dollar Half-Ounce Gold/Silver/Copper Three-Piece Sets will ever be released and they available only through GovMint.com and its marketing partners. Don’t miss this opportunity to hold history in your hands – secure one of these sets to your cart today!"
Or they just don't have it in stock. If you actually do some price research on this series, they tend to have a very small premium over gold. While they are not a bullion coin, their price is tied to it.
@Goldbully said: Anyone seen or heard of this ½oz. 1794-2019 Gold Flowing Hair private issue up for auction at GC?
Dates fit nicely between stars and FH Liberty looks a little different from the 1oz. version, I believe.
Not sure if the gold was released individually, but it was part of a three-piece set. Reference
says to call in for price...means i cant afford it? lol
Lol. More likely it just means the price is tied to bullion
Because bullion prices are not posted, and updated real time, all day, every day by govmint? No. It's likely because the product is expensive, and they are using it to prospect for new customers, so they don't want people to see the price and move on.
Private mint issues like this are sold on TV at huge premiums. If it's in a GC auction, its price and value is not tied to bullion. It's not a low mint state generic double eagle.
NOT a bullion product:
"Only 500 of these Smithsonian-authorized America’s First Silver Dollar Half-Ounce Gold/Silver/Copper Three-Piece Sets will ever be released and they available only through GovMint.com and its marketing partners. Don’t miss this opportunity to hold history in your hands – secure one of these sets to your cart today!"
Or they just don't have it in stock. If you actually do some price research on this series, they tend to have a very small premium over gold. While they are not a bullion coin, their price is tied to it.
Maybe. Or maybe, like Franklin Mint products, what you are finding on eBay is what people get for them when they dump them. GovMint is the original marketer. I doubt they went to the trouble to produce 500 of anything to sell for anything related to bullion when they already have a thriving business selling bullion produced by others.
That said, you very well might be correct that they no longer have stock, which is why they neither list a price nor given an opportunity to place an order. Doesn't mean that I am not also correct, and that the invitation to call is an invitation to be added to their customer list, and an invitation to give a salesperson an opportunity to sell you something else.
After all, if they only made 500 and they are not in stock, it's not like they will be added to stock any time soon. Unless GovMint also buys back on eBay in order to mark them up and sell them all over again.
1madman/Goldbully there's plenty of dusting and gold flake debris going on with the entire 230 mintage imo..
The planchets are mostly fine I think...
I blame the excessive gold flake debris dropping onto the DCAM as the edge collar dies are being removed. Some of those small chunks 'stick' to the smooth fields.
The collar dies are retaining some of the raised lettered edge "frosted" finish stuck inside the incuse?
That's a good 70 above compared to some other 70's.
Planchet flaw, or gold flakes pressed into the field on the coin below?.(red arrows)
It's Privy coin #33, a 70.. How about those rim problems across the way--see zoomed pic...
@Rick5280 said:
1madman/Goldbully there's plenty of dusting and gold flake debris going on with the entire 230 mintage imo..
The planchets are mostly fine I think...
I blame the excessive gold flake debris dropping onto the DCAM as the edge collar dies are being removed. Some of those small chunks 'stick' to the smooth fields.
The collar dies are retaining some of the raised lettered edge "frosted" finish stuck inside the incuse?
That's a good 70 above compared to some other 70's.
Planchet flaw, or gold flakes pressed into the field on the coin below?.(red arrows)
It's Privy coin #33, a 70.. How about those rim problems across the way--see zoomed pic...
What you are saying sounds quite plausible. I wonder if this phenomena is more prevalent on the 230 Privies?
Thanks for posting.
I blew up your images even more....amazing how these coins got through QC, especially considering the values at auction..
I'm still "stuck" on how these two goodies(red arrows) are on Privy coins #1 -- #53(with a few exceptions for the V)..
I can see as to the struck through thread-like mark up top,
but the "V" down there is just plain odd to me....
I wonder if that debris flake at 6 o'clock on the reverse photo would move if the slab was tapped on a hard surface. If it is loose, it could damage the mirror finish over time.
If you have one with a flake or two in a capsule, it might be worth checking before sending in for grading. I would not recommend sliding these into a grading flip with debris on them.
Goldminers,
I would at least give the tap method a try no doubt.
I do not remove a modern coin from its OGP capsule and then place the raw coin into a flip for a trip to the TPG's for the potential risk that you mention above.
Further yet, when cracking out a coin, especially Proof, I'll lay it over into a handy capsule without touching the coin.
No big deal for the TPG's to remove it themselves from my experience so far!
The no touch "pancake" capsule transfer technique worked well when switching a post '07 Spouse(large capsule)coin, to a 2007(smaller capsules) 4-coin box when assembling a nifty OGP "Liberty Subset" back in the day.
The Cleveland coin/capsule was placed there for scale compared to the '08 Jackson placed into the '07 capsule.
Note that the Jackson, and the Cleveland coins are exactly the same size & weight. Depth perception on full display!...
@Goldbully said: Anyone seen or heard of this ½oz. 1794-2019 Gold Flowing Hair private issue up for auction at GC?
Dates fit nicely between stars and FH Liberty looks a little different from the 1oz. version, I believe.
Not sure if the gold was released individually, but it was part of a three-piece set. Reference
says to call in for price...means i cant afford it? lol
Lol. More likely it just means the price is tied to bullion
Because bullion prices are not posted, and updated real time, all day, every day by govmint? No. It's likely because the product is expensive, and they are using it to prospect for new customers, so they don't want people to see the price and move on.
Private mint issues like this are sold on TV at huge premiums. If it's in a GC auction, its price and value is not tied to bullion. It's not a low mint state generic double eagle.
NOT a bullion product:
"Only 500 of these Smithsonian-authorized America’s First Silver Dollar Half-Ounce Gold/Silver/Copper Three-Piece Sets will ever be released and they available only through GovMint.com and its marketing partners. Don’t miss this opportunity to hold history in your hands – secure one of these sets to your cart today!"
Or they just don't have it in stock. If you actually do some price research on this series, they tend to have a very small premium over gold. While they are not a bullion coin, their price is tied to it.
Maybe. Or maybe, like Franklin Mint products, what you are finding on eBay is what people get for them when they dump them. GovMint is the original marketer. I doubt they went to the trouble to produce 500 of anything to sell for anything related to bullion when they already have a thriving business selling bullion produced by others.
That said, you very well might be correct that they no longer have stock, which is why they neither list a price nor given an opportunity to place an order. Doesn't mean that I am not also correct, and that the invitation to call is an invitation to be added to their customer list, and an invitation to give a salesperson an opportunity to sell you something else.
After all, if they only made 500 and they are not in stock, it's not like they will be added to stock any time soon. Unless GovMint also buys back on eBay in order to mark them up and sell them all over again.
You don't have to buy on ebay. Dealer exchanges are the more normal route.
Buying frenzy surrounds Flowing Hair gold dollar
By Paul Gilkes , Coin World
Published: Nov 24, 2024, 9 AM
The U.S. Mint reported that it took collectors only four minutes to deplete the inventory of available Flowing Hair gold dollars and a robust secondary market has developed. Image courtesy of the U.S. Mint
It took collectors four minutes Nov. 14 to place sufficient orders with the United States Mint to exhaust the bureau’s authorized issue of over 17,000 Proof 2024 230th Anniversary, Flowing Hair, High Relief, .9999 fine gold dollars at $3,640 per coin.
The price of the sold coins quickly escalated for resale on the secondary market at hundreds of dollars above issue price.
Orders for the gold dollars were limited to one per household. As the number of potential buyers increased exponentially online, those trying to place orders were routed to a “waiting room” in the order in which they tried to place their order. Potential buyers were subsequently moved into the buying queue after the waiting period expired.
The Mint sold 500 of the Proof gold dollars Nov. 14 at the Whitman Baltimore Expo.
U.S. Mint spokesman Michael White said Nov. 18 that 2,000 of the Proof gold dollars were reserved for direct sale to the 18 unnamed dealers that comprise the Authorized Bulk Purchase Program. The ABPP dealers are able to place orders for the coins for pickup a week before the launch of sales to the general public.
The ABPP dealers acquire the coins at a 5 percent premium above the retail price charged to the general public. Of the 2,000 Proof gold dollars reserved for the ABPP dealers, the dealers placed orders for 1,994 of the allotment.
The bureau also previously recorded a sellout for the Matte Finish .999 fine silver 2024 silver medal. The medals, limited to a product release of 50,000 units at $104 per unit when it went on sale Oct. 15, had a sales total online of 49,996 medals as of Oct. 24. Secondary market resale for silver medals habve been recorded at multiples of the issue price.
The gold dollars were struck at the West Point Mint while the silver medals were produced at the Philadelphia Mint. The numismatic products were produced in recognition of the nation’s first .900 fine silver dollars in 1794 designed and engraved by Chief Engraver Robert Scot. Neither the gold dollar nor silver medals bear the Mint mark of the production facility where the numismatic products were executed.
For the Proof Flowing Hair, High Relief gold dollars, 230 of the gold coin’s mintage were scheduled to be offered at auction Dec. 12 through Stack’s Bowers Galleries. Complete details of the auction had not been explained as of Nov. 18.
According to White, four obverse and four reverse dies bearing the 230 privy mark were used to strike the privy-marked gold pieces. The average die life for the obverse dies was 118 and for the reverse, 203 coins.
Thank you for the link to the Coin World article, @Goldbully.
I read the article and am perplexed by the math used in it, but that might just mean that I don't understand the terminology used. They write that four obverse dies were used to strike the privy mark coins and state that the obverse die average die life was 118-coins. One die pair was used for the first coin only. If the three additional obverse dies were used and they averaged 118-coins each then isn't that 355-coins total? Also, the article states that the three additional reverse dies were used for the privy mark coins and they averaged 203-coins each, which would mean 610-coins struck with the reverse dies. So, what is going on with the math?
Additionally, the non-privy coins used 34-obverse dies and 31-reverse dies that averaged 366-coins and 372-coins each before retirement along with five edge collar dies that averaged 2,525 coins before retirement. These figures point to 12,444 coins produced if we use the obverse die data (34 dies x 366 coins per die) or 11,532 coins produced if we use the reverse die data (31 dies x 372 coins per die). Lastly, the edge collar die data indicates 12,625 coins produced (5 dies x 2,525 coins per die).
Coin #1 appears to have no planchet flaw on reverse at 6:00.
Unless that is the flaw in pic #4 with red arrow.
Images #2,3, and 4 are taken from the first image of the PCGS encapsulated coin.
All images, except for the PCGS holdered images and PCGS TrueView images, are for illustrative purposes only and do not depict the exact coin being offered.
Just received mine. Beautiful coin. Much smaller than I was mentally expecting...couldn't imagine paying more than $5K for one of these. Just too small visually, but very nice.
Definitely agree about the size...that also goes for $50 AGE/Buffalo's as well of course. One would envision them larger until you hold one in person. $20 Double Eagles look larger for sure, though slightly less Au content... then compare that to a 50 Peso Gold. The 50 Peso Gold 1.2 oz is crazy size-wise! Beautiful coin, too.
Agree about the high price...but I wonder if it will go the way of the 2021 Liberty Gold or 2023 Liberty Gold issues? Those Liberties are demanding some higher prices for sure. So far the 2024 230 Gold still shows high demand on eBay. I think I counted like n=93 eBay sales over the past week ending yesterday. Nuts. Sales for the raw seem to be strong and quite a few slabs going, too. I gotta think at some point, a year out, that its supplies will dwindle on eBay and maybe more quickly if 10K is really it for this issue. Guess time will tell.
@Au100 said:
Definitely agree about the size...that also goes for $50 AGE/Buffalo's as well of course. One would envision them larger until you hold one in person. $20 Double Eagles look larger for sure, though slightly less Au content... then compare that to a 50 Peso Gold. The 50 Peso Gold 1.2 oz is crazy size-wise! Beautiful coin, too.
Agree about the high price...but I wonder if it will go the way of the 2021 Liberty Gold or 2023 Liberty Gold issues? Those Liberties are demanding some higher prices for sure. So far the 2024 230 Gold still shows high demand on eBay. I think I counted like n=93 eBay sales over the past week ending yesterday. Nuts. Sales for the raw seem to be strong and quite a few slabs going, too. I gotta think at some point, a year out, that its supplies will dwindle on eBay and maybe more quickly if 10K is really it for this issue. Guess time will tell.
Agreed on the supply dwindling idea making this issue quite attractive and heading higher like the others you mentioned. If it becomes the first part of an extended anniversary series of gold reproductions it could get very pricey in a few years.
jmlanzaf,
"Die marker or hub marker? They have zero reason to lie about it."
Agreed, but it does not explain away the fact that Privy coin #54 suddenly displays ZERO of the aforementioned markers in question. Michael White makes no mention of a 2nd hub, only that four obverse and four reverse dies were used for the Privy coins.
Those markers are present on *coin #1 through coin #53(with a few exceptions for the V--weak strike).
Coin #1 should NOT have any of the markers that are on #2 through #53--Yet it does.
Number 54 Privy coin below, no more markers(strikethrough, "V", etc.)....
Number 1 "published" Privy coin below...(1 through 53 are remarkably similar)
@Goldbully said:
Anyone seen or heard of this ½oz. 1794-2019 Gold Flowing Hair private issue up for auction at GC?
Dates fit nicely between stars and FH Liberty looks a little different from the 1oz. version, I believe.
PhilArnold,
Since you handled it personally in hand, I can only assume that you tried to remove it from the outside?
Since there's a double image of the lint it does tell me that it's definitely not on the surface of the coin.
A nice looking piece for someone looking to buy it for spot , plus a little for the "label".
Any new word on the rest of the US Mint gold FH non-privy coins?
Since they have to be sold this year because they are coins, it is getting late in the game to market the other 7,500 or so, even if they were actually struck. The real question, is did they actually mint them all, or not? The Mint spokesman statement did not 100% confirm they did.
Any idea who sells the FH gold advance release PCGS 70 Reagan Legacy holders? A large total of 441 PCGS 70's were graded FDOI and FS, but I can't find where to buy them? Not seeing graded 70's for sale at collectpure either?
We should get the new mint sales report for Nov 25 week later today. Still no new 2025 product schedule.
@Goldminers said:
Any new word on the rest of the US Mint gold FH non-privy coins?
Since they have to be sold this year because they are coins, it is getting late in the game to market the other 7,500 or so, even if they were actually struck.
Any idea who sells the FH gold advance release PCGS 70 Reagan Legacy holders? A large total of 441 PCGS 70's were graded FDOI and FS, but I can't find where to buy them? Not seeing graded 70's for sale at collectpure either?
We should get the new mint sales report for Nov 25 week later today. Still no new 2025 product schedule.
Upthread @jmlanzaf said they only need to be made this year, not sold this year:
@Goldminers said:
Any new word on the rest of the US Mint gold FH non-privy coins?
Since they have to be sold this year because they are coins, it is getting late in the game to market the other 7,500 or so, even if they were actually struck.
Any idea who sells the FH gold advance release PCGS 70 Reagan Legacy holders? A large total of 441 PCGS 70's were graded FDOI and FS, but I can't find where to buy them? Not seeing graded 70's for sale at collectpure either?
We should get the new mint sales report for Nov 25 week later today. Still no new 2025 product schedule.
Upthread @jmlanzaf said they only need to be made this year, not sold this year:
I was also on the fence on this coin...and for now knowing that it's at 10K and not 17.5K I took the plunge on one a few days back. In terms of slabs, I think the Au 230 looks great in the green CAC slab, something about that green vs gold thing. I also like the black NGC and some of the other NGC's. For whatever reason I'm not as much a fan of it in the PCGS First Strike slab, probably as I've seen so many of those holders on other coins. Just my own personal taste, everyone's mileage will vary. Coin looks good raw as well.
I don't think they'll issue any more Au/Ag 230, but who knows... Current Au 230 secondary still looks quite strong. No shortage of sales so far.
They probably never minted the 7500 like they stopped the silver at 50K instead of 75K. It’s probably over. If they were smart they stop production on the crap they are minting now and mint the rest of the Liberty since they are guaranteed winners. But I guess they have a set schedule they are on.
I guess even if the Mint did sell more later, which seems like a lower probability at this point, the Advanced release, FDOI and Baltimore show graded PR70's should still hold a little bit higher market value compared to base labeled or even the generic 30-day first strike labeled coins.
Prices are strong at the moment. I suspect many of the raw ones available on eBay are probably 69 level, as were the coins I saw in person.
@Goldminers said:
Any new word on the rest of the US Mint gold FH non-privy coins?
Since they have to be sold this year because they are coins, it is getting late in the game to market the other 7,500 or so, even if they were actually struck. The real question, is did they actually mint them all, or not? The Mint spokesman statement did not 100% confirm they did.
Any idea who sells the FH gold advance release PCGS 70 Reagan Legacy holders? A large total of 441 PCGS 70's were graded FDOI and FS, but I can't find where to buy them? Not seeing graded 70's for sale at collectpure either?
We should get the new mint sales report for Nov 25 week later today. Still no new 2025 product schedule.
Actually, the Mint spokesperson did definitely, 100% say that 17,500 were struck. Then again, the website showed the Product Limit as 17,500 until it didn't, so who knows?
From Coin World, November 8, 2024:
"Production of the limited-edition Proof 2024 230th Anniversary Flowing Hair, High Relief 1-ounce .9999 fine gold dollar is completed, with the maximum mintage of 17,500 coins executed at the West Point Mint in New York.
U.S. Mint spokesman Michael White confirmed to Coin World via email Oct. 30 that production of the entire authorized mintage was achieved. Retail pricing for the gold coin was to be announced by the U.S. Mint on Nov. 13, the day before the product is put on sale.
Orders will be restricted to one coin per household."
@Goldminers said:
Any new word on the rest of the US Mint gold FH non-privy coins?
Since they have to be sold this year because they are coins, it is getting late in the game to market the other 7,500 or so, even if they were actually struck. The real question, is did they actually mint them all, or not? The Mint spokesman statement did not 100% confirm they did.
Any idea who sells the FH gold advance release PCGS 70 Reagan Legacy holders? A large total of 441 PCGS 70's were graded FDOI and FS, but I can't find where to buy them? Not seeing graded 70's for sale at collectpure either?
We should get the new mint sales report for Nov 25 week later today. Still no new 2025 product schedule.
Actually, the Mint spokesperson did definitely, 100% say that 17,500 were struck. Then again, the website showed the Product Limit as 17,500 until it didn't, so who knows?
From Coin World, November 8, 2024:
"Production of the limited-edition Proof 2024 230th Anniversary Flowing Hair, High Relief 1-ounce .9999 fine gold dollar is completed, with the maximum mintage of 17,500 coins executed at the West Point Mint in New York.
U.S. Mint spokesman Michael White confirmed to Coin World via email Oct. 30 that production of the entire authorized mintage was achieved. Retail pricing for the gold coin was to be announced by the U.S. Mint on Nov. 13, the day before the product is put on sale.
Orders will be restricted to one coin per household."
Key words there
"production of the entire authorized mintage"
So what was the "authorized mintage"?
Maximum mintage and authorized mintage might be completely different.
@Goldminers said:
Any new word on the rest of the US Mint gold FH non-privy coins?
Since they have to be sold this year because they are coins, it is getting late in the game to market the other 7,500 or so, even if they were actually struck. The real question, is did they actually mint them all, or not? The Mint spokesman statement did not 100% confirm they did.
Any idea who sells the FH gold advance release PCGS 70 Reagan Legacy holders? A large total of 441 PCGS 70's were graded FDOI and FS, but I can't find where to buy them? Not seeing graded 70's for sale at collectpure either?
We should get the new mint sales report for Nov 25 week later today. Still no new 2025 product schedule.
Actually, the Mint spokesperson did definitely, 100% say that 17,500 were struck. Then again, the website showed the Product Limit as 17,500 until it didn't, so who knows?
From Coin World, November 8, 2024:
"Production of the limited-edition Proof 2024 230th Anniversary Flowing Hair, High Relief 1-ounce .9999 fine gold dollar is completed, with the maximum mintage of 17,500 coins executed at the West Point Mint in New York.
U.S. Mint spokesman Michael White confirmed to Coin World via email Oct. 30 that production of the entire authorized mintage was achieved. Retail pricing for the gold coin was to be announced by the U.S. Mint on Nov. 13, the day before the product is put on sale.
Orders will be restricted to one coin per household."
Key words there
"production of the entire authorized mintage"
So what was the "authorized mintage"?
Maximum mintage and authorized mintage might be completely different.
Read the prior paragraph "the maximum mintage of 17,500 executed".
@Goldminers said:
Any new word on the rest of the US Mint gold FH non-privy coins?
Since they have to be sold this year because they are coins, it is getting late in the game to market the other 7,500 or so, even if they were actually struck. The real question, is did they actually mint them all, or not? The Mint spokesman statement did not 100% confirm they did.
Any idea who sells the FH gold advance release PCGS 70 Reagan Legacy holders? A large total of 441 PCGS 70's were graded FDOI and FS, but I can't find where to buy them? Not seeing graded 70's for sale at collectpure either?
We should get the new mint sales report for Nov 25 week later today. Still no new 2025 product schedule.
Actually, the Mint spokesperson did definitely, 100% say that 17,500 were struck. Then again, the website showed the Product Limit as 17,500 until it didn't, so who knows?
From Coin World, November 8, 2024:
"Production of the limited-edition Proof 2024 230th Anniversary Flowing Hair, High Relief 1-ounce .9999 fine gold dollar is completed, with the maximum mintage of 17,500 coins executed at the West Point Mint in New York.
U.S. Mint spokesman Michael White confirmed to Coin World via email Oct. 30 that production of the entire authorized mintage was achieved. Retail pricing for the gold coin was to be announced by the U.S. Mint on Nov. 13, the day before the product is put on sale.
Orders will be restricted to one coin per household."
Key words there
"production of the entire authorized mintage"
So what was the "authorized mintage"?
Maximum mintage and authorized mintage might be completely different.
Coinworld makes statement in first paragraph and assumes Whites statement regarding authorized is also 17,500.
Previous post “ Actually, the Mint spokesperson did definitely, 100% say that 17,500 were struck” is not correct.
I agree that there may be some confusion in what the mint did or did not say. If they said they struck all that was authorized coinworld may have assumed that means 17,500. Has anyone tried emailing them for an answer like they did about the silvers?
@Goldminers said:
Any new word on the rest of the US Mint gold FH non-privy coins?
Since they have to be sold this year because they are coins, it is getting late in the game to market the other 7,500 or so, even if they were actually struck. The real question, is did they actually mint them all, or not? The Mint spokesman statement did not 100% confirm they did.
Any idea who sells the FH gold advance release PCGS 70 Reagan Legacy holders? A large total of 441 PCGS 70's were graded FDOI and FS, but I can't find where to buy them? Not seeing graded 70's for sale at collectpure either?
We should get the new mint sales report for Nov 25 week later today. Still no new 2025 product schedule.
Actually, the Mint spokesperson did definitely, 100% say that 17,500 were struck. Then again, the website showed the Product Limit as 17,500 until it didn't, so who knows?
From Coin World, November 8, 2024:
"Production of the limited-edition Proof 2024 230th Anniversary Flowing Hair, High Relief 1-ounce .9999 fine gold dollar is completed, with the maximum mintage of 17,500 coins executed at the West Point Mint in New York.
U.S. Mint spokesman Michael White confirmed to Coin World via email Oct. 30 that production of the entire authorized mintage was achieved. Retail pricing for the gold coin was to be announced by the U.S. Mint on Nov. 13, the day before the product is put on sale.
Orders will be restricted to one coin per household."
Key words there
"production of the entire authorized mintage"
So what was the "authorized mintage"?
Maximum mintage and authorized mintage might be completely different.
The key word is "entire." That means "maximum" to anyone with a rudimentary understanding of English. If we want to actually debate the meaning of the word "is," nothing anyone says will mean anything, since anything can be open to interpretation if you are willing to stretch far enough.
If "mintage limit" or "maximum mintage" mean anything other than "entire authorized mintage," nothing they ever say with respect to mintages, or mintage limits, will mean anything going forward. Period.
Comments
My experience in looking at these pieces in the past is that the sellers want multiples of the bullion value for similar items.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Or they just don't have it in stock. If you actually do some price research on this series, they tend to have a very small premium over gold. While they are not a bullion coin, their price is tied to it.
Maybe. Or maybe, like Franklin Mint products, what you are finding on eBay is what people get for them when they dump them. GovMint is the original marketer. I doubt they went to the trouble to produce 500 of anything to sell for anything related to bullion when they already have a thriving business selling bullion produced by others.
That said, you very well might be correct that they no longer have stock, which is why they neither list a price nor given an opportunity to place an order. Doesn't mean that I am not also correct, and that the invitation to call is an invitation to be added to their customer list, and an invitation to give a salesperson an opportunity to sell you something else.
After all, if they only made 500 and they are not in stock, it's not like they will be added to stock any time soon. Unless GovMint also buys back on eBay in order to mark them up and sell them all over again.
First TrueView I've seen on the Gold FH, let alone w/privy.....thanks for posting.
Am I seeing one of those pesky planchet flaws on the reverse at 6:00? Mine is to the left of the eagle's neck.
That's the first privy struck and she got a 70, maybe I'll be lucky.
You think pcgs will pony up with their guarantee and make the upcoming owner whole to downgrade this coin correctly to a 69?
On November 20th, #4 FH Gold Privy was $10k.
Here's the latest tally from today...........#4 is up $16k, #5 no movement since 11/20.
1madman/Goldbully there's plenty of dusting and gold flake debris going on with the entire 230 mintage imo..
The planchets are mostly fine I think...
I blame the excessive gold flake debris dropping onto the DCAM as the edge collar dies are being removed. Some of those small chunks 'stick' to the smooth fields.
The collar dies are retaining some of the raised lettered edge "frosted" finish stuck inside the incuse?
That's a good 70 above compared to some other 70's.
Planchet flaw, or gold flakes pressed into the field on the coin below?.(red arrows)
It's Privy coin #33, a 70.. How about those rim problems across the way--see zoomed pic...
What you are saying sounds quite plausible. I wonder if this phenomena is more prevalent on the 230 Privies?
Thanks for posting.
I blew up your images even more....amazing how these coins got through QC, especially considering the values at auction..
I'm still "stuck" on how these two goodies(red arrows) are on Privy coins #1 -- #53(with a few exceptions for the V)..
I can see as to the struck through thread-like mark up top,
but the "V" down there is just plain odd to me....
I wonder if that debris flake at 6 o'clock on the reverse photo would move if the slab was tapped on a hard surface. If it is loose, it could damage the mirror finish over time.
If you have one with a flake or two in a capsule, it might be worth checking before sending in for grading. I would not recommend sliding these into a grading flip with debris on them.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
Goldminers,
I would at least give the tap method a try no doubt.
I do not remove a modern coin from its OGP capsule and then place the raw coin into a flip for a trip to the TPG's for the potential risk that you mention above.
Further yet, when cracking out a coin, especially Proof, I'll lay it over into a handy capsule without touching the coin.
No big deal for the TPG's to remove it themselves from my experience so far!
The no touch "pancake" capsule transfer technique worked well when switching a post '07 Spouse(large capsule)coin, to a 2007(smaller capsules) 4-coin box when assembling a nifty OGP "Liberty Subset" back in the day.
The Cleveland coin/capsule was placed there for scale compared to the '08 Jackson placed into the '07 capsule.
Note that the Jackson, and the Cleveland coins are exactly the same size & weight. Depth perception on full display!...
You don't have to buy on ebay. Dealer exchanges are the more normal route.
CoinWorld PR................a fun read.
Buying frenzy surrounds Flowing Hair gold dollar
By Paul Gilkes , Coin World
The U.S. Mint reported that it took collectors only four minutes to deplete the inventory of available Flowing Hair gold dollars and a robust secondary market has developed. Image courtesy of the U.S. Mint
It took collectors four minutes Nov. 14 to place sufficient orders with the United States Mint to exhaust the bureau’s authorized issue of over 17,000 Proof 2024 230th Anniversary, Flowing Hair, High Relief, .9999 fine gold dollars at $3,640 per coin.
The price of the sold coins quickly escalated for resale on the secondary market at hundreds of dollars above issue price.
Orders for the gold dollars were limited to one per household. As the number of potential buyers increased exponentially online, those trying to place orders were routed to a “waiting room” in the order in which they tried to place their order. Potential buyers were subsequently moved into the buying queue after the waiting period expired.
The Mint sold 500 of the Proof gold dollars Nov. 14 at the Whitman Baltimore Expo.
U.S. Mint spokesman Michael White said Nov. 18 that 2,000 of the Proof gold dollars were reserved for direct sale to the 18 unnamed dealers that comprise the Authorized Bulk Purchase Program. The ABPP dealers are able to place orders for the coins for pickup a week before the launch of sales to the general public.
The ABPP dealers acquire the coins at a 5 percent premium above the retail price charged to the general public. Of the 2,000 Proof gold dollars reserved for the ABPP dealers, the dealers placed orders for 1,994 of the allotment.
The bureau also previously recorded a sellout for the Matte Finish .999 fine silver 2024 silver medal. The medals, limited to a product release of 50,000 units at $104 per unit when it went on sale Oct. 15, had a sales total online of 49,996 medals as of Oct. 24. Secondary market resale for silver medals habve been recorded at multiples of the issue price.
The gold dollars were struck at the West Point Mint while the silver medals were produced at the Philadelphia Mint. The numismatic products were produced in recognition of the nation’s first .900 fine silver dollars in 1794 designed and engraved by Chief Engraver Robert Scot. Neither the gold dollar nor silver medals bear the Mint mark of the production facility where the numismatic products were executed.
For the Proof Flowing Hair, High Relief gold dollars, 230 of the gold coin’s mintage were scheduled to be offered at auction Dec. 12 through Stack’s Bowers Galleries. Complete details of the auction had not been explained as of Nov. 18.
Read entire article here...love the Striking Details
According to White, four obverse and four reverse dies bearing the 230 privy mark were used to strike the privy-marked gold pieces. The average die life for the obverse dies was 118 and for the reverse, 203 coins.
It is a disgrace how many 69 coins are given a 70 grade especially when you see where they went and the money involved.
Think of how many millions the mint would have lost if the 230 coins went to cacg
Not sure how well a big pile of detailed holders would fly on Stacks site
Thank you for the link to the Coin World article, @Goldbully.
I read the article and am perplexed by the math used in it, but that might just mean that I don't understand the terminology used. They write that four obverse dies were used to strike the privy mark coins and state that the obverse die average die life was 118-coins. One die pair was used for the first coin only. If the three additional obverse dies were used and they averaged 118-coins each then isn't that 355-coins total? Also, the article states that the three additional reverse dies were used for the privy mark coins and they averaged 203-coins each, which would mean 610-coins struck with the reverse dies. So, what is going on with the math?
Additionally, the non-privy coins used 34-obverse dies and 31-reverse dies that averaged 366-coins and 372-coins each before retirement along with five edge collar dies that averaged 2,525 coins before retirement. These figures point to 12,444 coins produced if we use the obverse die data (34 dies x 366 coins per die) or 11,532 coins produced if we use the reverse die data (31 dies x 372 coins per die). Lastly, the edge collar die data indicates 12,625 coins produced (5 dies x 2,525 coins per die).
I am confused.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
"White said the first-struck, privy-marked Proof gold dollar, was produced with its own die set."
I beg to differ...Someone's pants are on FIRE.
Number 1 Privy coin below...
Number 5 Privy coin below--Same Die markers as #1 above...
Here's a good on for you. Privy coin #1 below(50925869)A 70...
Now for Privy coin #3 below(50925871)A 69...
Different cert #'s---SAME IMAGE!!
I smell a PCGS, and a SBG RAT!
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/auctions/3-1EVV9W/december-2024-historic-privy-mark-230th-anniversary-flowing-hair-high-relief-gold-coins-on-behalf-of-the-united-states-mint-lots-11001-11230?limit=36&jump_to_lot=11003
Die marker or hub marker? They have zero reason to lie about it.
@Rick5280 is on to something, but I also made a discovery on the PCGS TrueView Website section.
First of all, both graphic banners for coin #1 and coin #3 appear to be identical.
Of note coin #1 is a 70, coin #3 is a 69.
Here are closeups of the chatter just above the eagle of both coins taken from the graphic banners.
Coin #1
Coin #3
Obviously they are identical..
Now take a look at the non-banner images.
Coin #1
Coin #3
Chatter and "planchet flaw" at 6:00 on #3 is gone.
Somehow PCGS mixed up the image taking on coin #3 as the banner shows the flaw and the chatter, and the individual images do not.
BTW, there is no obverse individual image available for coin #3.
Both Obverse and reverse downloads show the reverse.
Here are the links to the high resolution images.
Coin #1...50925869
Coin #3...50925871
Look forward to seeing what others have to say.
Does collectors = dealers with advance access, dealers with normal access, flippers, bots and some real collectors?
Are you a "real collector"? What does that mean?
From Stacks Bowers Auction.
Coin #1 appears to have no planchet flaw on reverse at 6:00.
Unless that is the flaw in pic #4 with red arrow.
Images #2,3, and 4 are taken from the first image of the PCGS encapsulated coin.
All images, except for the PCGS holdered images and PCGS TrueView images, are for illustrative purposes only and do not depict the exact coin being offered.
Stacks Bowers Link
Just received mine. Beautiful coin. Much smaller than I was mentally expecting...couldn't imagine paying more than $5K for one of these. Just too small visually, but very nice.
Definitely agree about the size...that also goes for $50 AGE/Buffalo's as well of course. One would envision them larger until you hold one in person. $20 Double Eagles look larger for sure, though slightly less Au content... then compare that to a 50 Peso Gold. The 50 Peso Gold 1.2 oz is crazy size-wise! Beautiful coin, too.
Agree about the high price...but I wonder if it will go the way of the 2021 Liberty Gold or 2023 Liberty Gold issues? Those Liberties are demanding some higher prices for sure. So far the 2024 230 Gold still shows high demand on eBay. I think I counted like n=93 eBay sales over the past week ending yesterday. Nuts. Sales for the raw seem to be strong and quite a few slabs going, too. I gotta think at some point, a year out, that its supplies will dwindle on eBay and maybe more quickly if 10K is really it for this issue. Guess time will tell.
What does this mean? I remember the Product Limit was 17500.
What we have here is
They lowered it last week after they only sold 10,000 of them
Agreed on the supply dwindling idea making this issue quite attractive and heading higher like the others you mentioned. If it becomes the first part of an extended anniversary series of gold reproductions it could get very pricey in a few years.
jmlanzaf,
"Die marker or hub marker? They have zero reason to lie about it."
Agreed, but it does not explain away the fact that Privy coin #54 suddenly displays ZERO of the aforementioned markers in question. Michael White makes no mention of a 2nd hub, only that four obverse and four reverse dies were used for the Privy coins.
Those markers are present on *coin #1 through coin #53(with a few exceptions for the V--weak strike).
Coin #1 should NOT have any of the markers that are on #2 through #53--Yet it does.
Number 54 Privy coin below, no more markers(strikethrough, "V", etc.)....
Number 1 "published" Privy coin below...(1 through 53 are remarkably similar)
Number 19 below...
Goldbully,
"Unless that is the flaw in pic #4 with red arrow."
It looks that way to me. You almost want to just blow it off(I know, it's a no-no lol).
From Stack Bowers..........just posted a few hours ago.
SB Link
Here you go.
There a little piece of dust (?) by Liberty’s face that’s on the inside of the slab.
I’ve yet to see the US Mint product, and suspect it will take a few weeks. I only just saw my first silver flowing hair yesterday.
Phil Arnold
Director of Photography, GreatCollections
greatcollections.com
PhilArnold,
Since you handled it personally in hand, I can only assume that you tried to remove it from the outside?
Since there's a double image of the lint it does tell me that it's definitely not on the surface of the coin.
A nice looking piece for someone looking to buy it for spot , plus a little for the "label".
Any new word on the rest of the US Mint gold FH non-privy coins?
Since they have to be sold this year because they are coins, it is getting late in the game to market the other 7,500 or so, even if they were actually struck. The real question, is did they actually mint them all, or not? The Mint spokesman statement did not 100% confirm they did.
Any idea who sells the FH gold advance release PCGS 70 Reagan Legacy holders? A large total of 441 PCGS 70's were graded FDOI and FS, but I can't find where to buy them? Not seeing graded 70's for sale at collectpure either?
We should get the new mint sales report for Nov 25 week later today. Still no new 2025 product schedule.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
Upthread @jmlanzaf said they only need to be made this year, not sold this year:
Darn. I am trying to decide if I should buy one now. Did they actually mint 17,500 of them, or not? Why don't they say it in a definitive way?
If they unexpectedly post +/- 7,500 to sell in January, I sure don't want to pay a really high premium now for one.
The Mint really does need to be more transparent about this situation, as others have mentioned.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
I was also on the fence on this coin...and for now knowing that it's at 10K and not 17.5K I took the plunge on one a few days back. In terms of slabs, I think the Au 230 looks great in the green CAC slab, something about that green vs gold thing. I also like the black NGC and some of the other NGC's. For whatever reason I'm not as much a fan of it in the PCGS First Strike slab, probably as I've seen so many of those holders on other coins. Just my own personal taste, everyone's mileage will vary. Coin looks good raw as well.
I don't think they'll issue any more Au/Ag 230, but who knows... Current Au 230 secondary still looks quite strong. No shortage of sales so far.
They probably never minted the 7500 like they stopped the silver at 50K instead of 75K. It’s probably over. If they were smart they stop production on the crap they are minting now and mint the rest of the Liberty since they are guaranteed winners. But I guess they have a set schedule they are on.
Box of 20
I guess even if the Mint did sell more later, which seems like a lower probability at this point, the Advanced release, FDOI and Baltimore show graded PR70's should still hold a little bit higher market value compared to base labeled or even the generic 30-day first strike labeled coins.
Prices are strong at the moment. I suspect many of the raw ones available on eBay are probably 69 level, as were the coins I saw in person.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
Actually, the Mint spokesperson did definitely, 100% say that 17,500 were struck. Then again, the website showed the Product Limit as 17,500 until it didn't, so who knows?
From Coin World, November 8, 2024:
"Production of the limited-edition Proof 2024 230th Anniversary Flowing Hair, High Relief 1-ounce .9999 fine gold dollar is completed, with the maximum mintage of 17,500 coins executed at the West Point Mint in New York.
U.S. Mint spokesman Michael White confirmed to Coin World via email Oct. 30 that production of the entire authorized mintage was achieved. Retail pricing for the gold coin was to be announced by the U.S. Mint on Nov. 13, the day before the product is put on sale.
Orders will be restricted to one coin per household."
Key words there
"production of the entire authorized mintage"
So what was the "authorized mintage"?
Maximum mintage and authorized mintage might be completely different.
Read the prior paragraph "the maximum mintage of 17,500 executed".
Coinworld makes statement in first paragraph and assumes Whites statement regarding authorized is also 17,500.
Previous post “ Actually, the Mint spokesperson did definitely, 100% say that 17,500 were struck” is not correct.
The silence from the Mint is deafening.....
I agree that there may be some confusion in what the mint did or did not say. If they said they struck all that was authorized coinworld may have assumed that means 17,500. Has anyone tried emailing them for an answer like they did about the silvers?
Usually the case when somebody is getting ready to stick it to you.
The key word is "entire." That means "maximum" to anyone with a rudimentary understanding of English. If we want to actually debate the meaning of the word "is," nothing anyone says will mean anything, since anything can be open to interpretation if you are willing to stretch far enough.
If "mintage limit" or "maximum mintage" mean anything other than "entire authorized mintage," nothing they ever say with respect to mintages, or mintage limits, will mean anything going forward. Period.
Oh, look who's parsing the words now and referring to technical definitions...
“Mintage Limit” = Apple.
“Product Limit” = Orange.
“Authorized Mintage” = Peach.