@CoinPhysicist said:
Clearly the price guides have significantly overvalued this particular coin. It sold for $50k at a public auction, it's worth $50k. As the dealer I'm banking on someone who didn't see it at auction or didn't realize they want it. I'd price it at $62k and be ready to negotiate with any serious buyer whose initial offer is close to or over the $50k I paid.
Not necessarily. No reserve auctions are liquidation mechanisms. Although retail buyers attend them, it's not fair to say that auction results reflect retail pricing.
$75k - My price takes into count that the coin hasn't appeared in auction for over 10 years. You can always take less if you wish. But if you list it at $60k and it sells than you can't ask for more.
Interesting premise. I'm probably asking 60 to 62.5 (20 to 25% over my cost), as this appears to have been a good purchase. But I would be willing to negotiate back to 57 to 58, which seems more wholesale-ish based on CDN Bid.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Short answer: I'd price it 20% over purchase, and be willing to negotiate with a serious buyer.
Long answer: I'd look at similar rarity and similar eye appeal coins from the same series to evaluate price trends and market pricing relative to guide. Typically "A" coins sell close to PCGS guide, but "A" coins also typically are CAC'd, which you specifically excluded. "B" coins often sell for 75% of guide and "C" coins as little as 50% of guide. Was this coin a "C" coin? I might have buyers remorse. If a "B" coin maybe I got lucky and can ask a big markup...
I would assume the coin doesn't have much competition from comparisons. I would like to see whether the coin sold in any other grades, lately.
Clearly my willingness to tie up money in the coin is the major factor. I would probably price the coin at 70K and time, money needed, would determine how quickly I would price down. With a product that's illiquid, if I lower the price who am I negotiating against? Myself?
I offered a comic fairly recently at 25K. I received lowball bids from time to time which I suspected were from one buyer. I guess he was attempting to wait me out? After 2 years I finally sold the book for $18K. Time and price with a lack of interest convinced me of the books current value.
My question... If a second similar coin was in another auction, would the buyer buy bid for a second coin. If so how much down would he/she bid for the second coin?
My answer would depend on if I was constrained on capital.
Strategy 1 (constrained on capital) would be to price the coin at roughly $60K, perhaps accepting $55k if I thought I could get a fast sale. A 10% one-month return is an annualized 120% rate of return illustrating how a continually fast turn of inventory even at lower margins generates a stronger ROIC.
Strategy 2 (unconstrained on capital) would be to price the coin at $75,000 believing that if one hasn't shown in 10 years, someone will need it eventually, even if it took a year. 50% annualized rate of return less cost of capital. If I was constrained on capital and I was able to generate returns outlined in strategy 1 this would tie up funds which would otherwise generate better returns at faster turnover and lower margins.
@CoinPhysicist said:
Clearly the price guides have significantly overvalued this particular coin. It sold for $50k at a public auction, it's worth $50k. As the dealer I'm banking on someone who didn't see it at auction or didn't realize they want it. I'd price it at $62k and be ready to negotiate with any serious buyer whose initial offer is close to or over the $50k I paid.
Not necessarily. No reserve auctions are liquidation mechanisms. Although retail buyers attend them, it's not fair to say that auction results reflect retail pricing.
Sometimes they don't even reflect wholesale pricing. They reflect a moment in time. I've bought gold coins that I immediately scrapped at melt from Heritage.
And, of course, the opposite is also true. A coin might sell for a number that won't ever be seen again.
@MFeld said:
Sometimes, there are good recent comps that make it relatively easy to price a coin at the “right” number. Other times, it can be a lot more difficult.
For purposes of privacy, the names, places, denomination, precise numbers, date, mint, grade and grading company have been omitted.
Only the following information is available to you:
CDN bid was $65,000.
Price guide was $100,000.
The most recent sale - same grading company and grade - was more than 10 years ago at $50,000.
Your maximum bid was $55,000.
You won the coin for $50,000.
What would your asking price be?
Please feel free to explain how you arrived at your price.
One sale does not make a market and that you won it for $50k (presumably a steal) wouldn’t suggest toward a lower evaluation. Without knowing the series, grading services, originality, CAC status, etc., it is hard to say more. For some series CDN is low. For others it is high.
Since it hadn’t been seen publicly in 10 years, I’d probably ask the full price guide value of $100,000, accept offers, throw in a lot of glimmering marketing hooks, and let the chips fall where they fall. As far as to what I accept, it would depend on opportunity cost and my personal cash flow.
@Boosibri said:
My answer would depend on if I was constrained on capital.
Strategy 1 (constrained on capital) would be to price the coin at roughly $60K, perhaps accepting $55k if I thought I could get a fast sale. A 10% one-month return is an annualized 120% rate of return illustrating how a continually fast turn of inventory even at lower margins generates a stronger ROIC.
Strategy 2 (unconstrained on capital) would be to price the coin at $75,000 believing that if one hasn't shown in 10 years, someone will need it eventually, even if it took a year. 50% annualized rate of return less cost of capital. If I was constrained on capital and I was able to generate returns outlined in strategy 1 this would tie up funds which would otherwise generate better returns at faster turnover and lower margins.
Great example incorporating the time value of money.
Considering it’s cost of $50k / Ideally want move in the $65k CDN Bid - $100K PG Retail range. But other factors based on Mkt conditions and how quickly want move it. Not a wholesaler but might discount some below its $100 K MV. One play call - Start negotiation at $115K (especially if it’s PQ)? - let them talk down to $100k get double bubble works perfectly. If they that rich and badly want it…. Most likely it’s the only one in bourse room.
First of all I am not a wholesaler. Furthermore I have significant fixed and variable costs to recover. My professional background outside of coins is in Cost & Financial accounting. For my coin biz have developed inventory acctg spreadsheets with all pertinent data. Plus custom acctg structure for financial analysis / reporting.
Assuming item bought right, and in plan range would try price in standard range ( CDN Bid / CPG) per market conditions. If unknown CDN data price cost plus vs competitors (beat their price). We don’t leave money on the table. Overhead expenses are unforgiving. Goal to move it quickly and room for negotiation helps. Not stuck in concrete on a price. Sometimes a loss unavoidable due to market conditions. A,B,C material priced accordingly.
Would be priced somewhere between CDN Bid / CPG. Unless some Mkt reason price higher. Price negotiable depending on room. What I paid for it is Confidential with the seller and proprietary data of the business.
@CoinPhysicist said:
Clearly the price guides have significantly overvalued this particular coin. It sold for $50k at a public auction, it's worth $50k. As the dealer I'm banking on someone who didn't see it at auction or didn't realize they want it. I'd price it at $62k and be ready to negotiate with any serious buyer whose initial offer is close to or over the $50k I paid.
Not every price realized at a public auction represents what the coin is really worth. Some coins "slip through the cracks". When I was a dealer, I bought a coin at auction for less than $12K all-in, sold it two days later for $32K, the seller eventually sold it in the neighborhood of $50K.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Depends upon who walks up to the table. Tire kickers can take their BS somewhere else. If they get nasty, my taekwondo trained assistant will wrestle them away. Smash mouth football, QB stands aside. Would price keystone markup making twice my cost. Also mexican coins and currency hot right now. Customers gone wild. lol
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Auction prices can be what somebody overpaid or gave it away for. Past history. Like if deciding what to bid may Calc auc avg if that available. Ultimately what think can sell for the trump card In bid decision.
There will be players off the bourse who will try hose you with some know it all spiel try talk you down. Be polite, enjoy it for its entertainment value, but above all don’t give it away. If they become obnoxious it’s time for them to leave.
@Catbert said:
Depends upon who walks up to the table. Tire kickers can take their BS somewhere else. If they get nasty, my taekwondo trained assistant will wrestle them away. Smash mouth football, QB stands aside. Would price keystone markup making twice my cost. Also mexican coins and currency hot right now. Customers gone wild. lol
I'm thinking that if I was willing to go to $55K (and was intending to sell it, as a dealer would) then I must think that it's worth more than that. So if I won it at $50K I'd probably price it at $5,750 [edited to: $57,500] or thereabouts.
@jedm said:
I'm thinking that if I was willing to go to $55K (and was intending to sell it, as a dealer would) then I must think that it's worth more than that. So if I won it at $50K I'd probably price it at $5,750 or thereabouts.
I would ask 2x price guide.
The coin was massively undergraded in its holder and easily got a gold sticker when I sent it to CAC. The reason it sold so cheaply at auction is that the photographer sneezed right before taking the shot and the cataloguer forgot to mention it was pedigreed to the mfeld collection.
@jedm said:
I'm thinking that if I was willing to go to $55K (and was intending to sell it, as a dealer would) then I must think that it's worth more than that. So if I won it at $50K I'd probably price it at $5,750 or thereabouts.
That's a big loss. 😄
That'd be me. I've never sold a coin for anywhere near what I paid. I usually pay retail and sell for 10-20% under Greysheet. LMAO!
@Catbert said:
Depends upon who walks up to the table. Tire kickers can take their BS somewhere else. If they get nasty, my taekwondo trained assistant will wrestle them away. Smash mouth football, QB stands aside. Would price keystone markup making twice my cost. Also mexican coins and currency hot right now. Customers gone wild. lol
I always suspected that you and @Cougar1978 were the same person posting under two different accounts.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Catbert said:
Depends upon who walks up to the table. Tire kickers can take their BS somewhere else. If they get nasty, my taekwondo trained assistant will wrestle them away. Smash mouth football, QB stands aside. Would price keystone markup making twice my cost. Also mexican coins and currency hot right now. Customers gone wild. lol
I read this and didn't even notice it wasn't Cougar
Collector of Capped Bust Halves, SLQ's, Commems, and random cool stuff! @davidv_numismatics on Instagram
I thought you might laugh in that I provided the shortest answer thus far.
Sure…POR borderlines on an obnoxious ploy, but it simply was not viable to retain Catbert’s assistant on such short notice before responding as the tirekickers may just be the greater immediate threat.
Your question does deserve a more thoughtful response. I am not completely moved be CDN prices or auction records. And whether one sold in the same grade 10 years at $50K does not help with what I consider to be the more pertinent issues including but not limited to:
The surviving population by grade?
What does the surviving population look like?
How does my $50K purchase stack up verse the surviving population and perhaps more specifically, how does it compare to the one that sold in the same TPG holder/grade 10 years ago?
I think we all know that two coins within the same grade are not created equal. And while a CDN price of $100K may sound optimistic or inflated-maybe if the coin has the look that truly makes it special and sets it apart from the remaining population, the offering price may be more complicated.
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@MrEureka said: One consideration will be that potential buyers will look for comps, just as you did, and find the recent sale at 50K. So even though you were willing to pay 55K, presumably because you were planning to sell it at something like 60K, you may instead want to offer it for sale for something more like 55K. Of course, there are many other factors to take into consideration, so the number could end up being something very different than that.
Exactly, because first thing I would do as the end buyer is take the auction price info to the grading company and get the price guide value dropped to $50,000. Then go to the dealer and negotiate downward from there.
This is a perfect example of a coin that is more likely to lose money for the dealer than to realize much of any gain.
$57,500.00 firm.
If it starts to collect dust $55,000.00.
If there are no takers then it needs to go to auction.
I'm pretty sure that's how many dealers would approach this.
The time line would all depend on my purse.
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
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@MrEureka said: One consideration will be that potential buyers will look for comps, just as you did, and find the recent sale at 50K. So even though you were willing to pay 55K, presumably because you were planning to sell it at something like 60K, you may instead want to offer it for sale for something more like 55K. Of course, there are many other factors to take into consideration, so the number could end up being something very different than that.
Exactly, because first thing I would do as the end buyer is take the auction price info to the grading company and get the price guide value dropped to $50,000. Then go to the dealer and negotiate downward from there.
This is a perfect example of a coin that is more likely to lose money for the dealer than to realize much of any gain.
I thought you might laugh in that I provided the shortest answer thus far.
Sure…POR borderlines on an obnoxious ploy, but it simply was not viable to retain Catbert’s assistant on such short notice before responding as the tirekickers may just be the greater immediate threat.
Your question does deserve a more thoughtful response. I am not completely moved be CDN prices or auction records. And whether one sold in the same grade 10 years at $50K does not help with what I consider to be the more pertinent issues including but not limited to:
The surviving population by grade?
What does the surviving population look like?
How does my $50K purchase stack up verse the surviving population and perhaps more specifically, how does it compare to the one that sold in the same TPG holder/grade 10 years ago?
I think we all know that two coins within the same grade are not created equal. And while a CDN price of $100K may sound optimistic or inflated-maybe if the coin has the look that truly makes it special and sets it apart from the remaining population, the offering price may be more complicated.
I was virtually certain that you were kidding, in part, because your "POR" reply was so short. But I figured it was better to go ahead and voice my distaste for POR listings, just in case.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Regardless of what I try to sell it for, it will be based off what I was willing to pay, not what I actually paid for it (unless once I get the coin in hand again I find something I missed the first time looking).
@nencoin said:
Regardless of what I try to sell it for, it will be based off what I was willing to pay, not what I actually paid for it (unless once I get the coin in hand again I find something I missed the first time looking).
And that’s what the dealer’s doing in this case. He’s asking (edited to correct the percentages) 11% over what he was willing to pay (but 25% over his cost). If or when I become aware of what the coin sells for, I’ll post an update.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MrEureka said: One consideration will be that potential buyers will look for comps, just as you did, and find the recent sale at 50K. So even though you were willing to pay 55K, presumably because you were planning to sell it at something like 60K, you may instead want to offer it for sale for something more like 55K. Of course, there are many other factors to take into consideration, so the number could end up being something very different than that.
Exactly, because first thing I would do as the end buyer is take the auction price info to the grading company and get the price guide value dropped to $50,000. Then go to the dealer and negotiate downward from there.
This is a perfect example of a coin that is more likely to lose money for the dealer than to realize much of any gain.
Even if you managed to get the guide value dropped to $50k, that doesn't mean it's going to sell for 50k or less. Both you and the seller KNOW what the seller paid. This is not a game of blind man's buff. You can certainly negotiate, but you will be unlikely to get it for less than 50k even if you get the guide value dropped to 30k. This is especially true for a coin that only pops up every few years.
I've sold many coins and comics from Heritage where I directed the buyer to the Heritage auction where I purchased the item. They know what I paid. They also know what I want. And if my margin is reasonable, they will buy it. If it isn't worth my cost+10% or cost+20% to them, then they better set their alarm clock next time it hits the auction block.
No one is a slave to either the guide or prior sales. It is worth what it is worth to you to acquire at this moment in time.
If the guy starts quoting auction prices to talk me down I just laugh, tell him “ go buy one at auction then.” Or maybe “Do you have one sell me at that.”
@MrEureka said: One consideration will be that potential buyers will look for comps, just as you did, and find the recent sale at 50K. So even though you were willing to pay 55K, presumably because you were planning to sell it at something like 60K, you may instead want to offer it for sale for something more like 55K. Of course, there are many other factors to take into consideration, so the number could end up being something very different than that.
Exactly, because first thing I would do as the end buyer is take the auction price info to the grading company and get the price guide value dropped to $50,000. Then go to the dealer and negotiate downward from there.
This is a perfect example of a coin that is more likely to lose money for the dealer than to realize much of any gain.
Even if you managed to get the guide value dropped to $50k, that doesn't mean it's going to sell for 50k or less. Both you and the seller KNOW what the seller paid. This is not a game of blind man's buff. You can certainly negotiate, but you will be unlikely to get it for less than 50k even if you get the guide value dropped to 30k. This is especially true for a coin that only pops up every few years.
As the end buyer in this case with the coin, I almost feel like I have leverage over the dealer because the coin feels “stale”. It just feels like the coin is and was an overvalued example. The coin brings $50k in ~2014 which was a real low point in the market (great buying opportunities back then), and fast forward 10 years through the Covid boom of the coin market and current record high gold prices propping up coin prices, and the coin again sells for the same $50k.
This just sounds like a tough sell coin that has absolutely zero upside to it. If it can’t appreciate in price after 10 years going from a poor market to a robust market, the coin is either a niche widget with a minuscule collector base, or wildly overvalued at $50k.
If I were the dealer, I would price at $55k, and gladly dump it at my $50k cost to be rid of it. The dealer who bought it at $50k needs to reevaluate their business model.
@MrEureka said: One consideration will be that potential buyers will look for comps, just as you did, and find the recent sale at 50K. So even though you were willing to pay 55K, presumably because you were planning to sell it at something like 60K, you may instead want to offer it for sale for something more like 55K. Of course, there are many other factors to take into consideration, so the number could end up being something very different than that.
Exactly, because first thing I would do as the end buyer is take the auction price info to the grading company and get the price guide value dropped to $50,000. Then go to the dealer and negotiate downward from there.
This is a perfect example of a coin that is more likely to lose money for the dealer than to realize much of any gain.
Even if you managed to get the guide value dropped to $50k, that doesn't mean it's going to sell for 50k or less. Both you and the seller KNOW what the seller paid. This is not a game of blind man's buff. You can certainly negotiate, but you will be unlikely to get it for less than 50k even if you get the guide value dropped to 30k. This is especially true for a coin that only pops up every few years.
As the end buyer in this case with the coin, I almost feel like I have leverage over the dealer because the coin feels “stale”. It just feels like the coin is and was an overvalued example. The coin brings $50k in ~2014 which was a real low point in the market (great buying opportunities back then), and fast forward 10 years through the Covid boom of the coin market and current record high gold prices propping up coin prices, and the coin again sells for the same $50k.
This just sounds like a tough sell coin that has absolutely zero upside to it. If it can’t appreciate in price after 10 years going from a poor market to a robust market, the coin is either a niche widget with a minuscule collector base, or wildly overvalued at $50k.
If I were the dealer, I would price at $55k, and gladly dump it at my $50k cost to be rid of it. The dealer who bought it at $50k needs to reevaluate their business model.
The dealer who bought the coin is an extremely knowledgeable, large buyer, who’s very much in tune with values and the state of the market. His business model’s been working quite well for the past two decades.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@nencoin said:
Regardless of what I try to sell it for, it will be based off what I was willing to pay, not what I actually paid for it (unless once I get the coin in hand again I find something I missed the first time looking).
And that’s what the dealer’s doing in this case. He’s asking 15% over what he was willing to pay (but 30% over his cost). If or when I become aware of what the coin sells for, I’ll post an update.
First thing that popped in my head with that statement is you’re going to bump this post 10 years from now saying the dealer finally sold the coin for $50k (again).
@nencoin said:
Regardless of what I try to sell it for, it will be based off what I was willing to pay, not what I actually paid for it (unless once I get the coin in hand again I find something I missed the first time looking).
And that’s what the dealer’s doing in this case. He’s asking 15% over what he was willing to pay (but 30% over his cost). If or when I become aware of what the coin sells for, I’ll post an update.
First thing that popped in my head with that statement is you’re going to bump this post 10 years from now saying the dealer finally sold the coin for $50k (again).
Based on my observations, he’s not likely to stock the coin for quite that long, even if it means taking a loss.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Some of u imo going in wrong direction using cost as a basis lol. Your ripping yourself. Take the pickoff to the bank (put in inventory) then shoot for MV plus. Nope I throw out the low bal bids. Or at least MV discounted 3-5 pct.
Why not bump it up to $110k slightly over $100 K MV go for some real gusto vs giving it away at some small lame pct over what I paid scoring it for? Perhaps it’s a low pop key a wealthy investor has to have. The only one in the bourse room…. Then rich guy having to have it steps up pays the money. Or go to $125k then (goal sell it in &110-$ 125 k range)
@BAJJERFAN said:
Why would you buy a $50K coin without knowing that you could sell it instead of hoping that you could sell it?
Buying coins without knowing that you can sell them for a profit is part of the business - at least for the vast majority of dealers.
Obviously, but what percent play in the $50K and up area?
I don’t know what percent, but there are lots of $50,000+ coins out there and plenty of dealers will stock them at what they consider to be reasonable levels.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Comments
Not necessarily. No reserve auctions are liquidation mechanisms. Although retail buyers attend them, it's not fair to say that auction results reflect retail pricing.
http://ProofCollection.Net
$75k - My price takes into count that the coin hasn't appeared in auction for over 10 years. You can always take less if you wish. But if you list it at $60k and it sells than you can't ask for more.
Interesting premise. I'm probably asking 60 to 62.5 (20 to 25% over my cost), as this appears to have been a good purchase. But I would be willing to negotiate back to 57 to 58, which seems more wholesale-ish based on CDN Bid.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Short answer: I'd price it 20% over purchase, and be willing to negotiate with a serious buyer.
Long answer: I'd look at similar rarity and similar eye appeal coins from the same series to evaluate price trends and market pricing relative to guide. Typically "A" coins sell close to PCGS guide, but "A" coins also typically are CAC'd, which you specifically excluded. "B" coins often sell for 75% of guide and "C" coins as little as 50% of guide. Was this coin a "C" coin? I might have buyers remorse. If a "B" coin maybe I got lucky and can ask a big markup...
what's heritage's npb policy again?
I would assume the coin doesn't have much competition from comparisons. I would like to see whether the coin sold in any other grades, lately.
Clearly my willingness to tie up money in the coin is the major factor. I would probably price the coin at 70K and time, money needed, would determine how quickly I would price down. With a product that's illiquid, if I lower the price who am I negotiating against? Myself?
I offered a comic fairly recently at 25K. I received lowball bids from time to time which I suspected were from one buyer. I guess he was attempting to wait me out? After 2 years I finally sold the book for $18K. Time and price with a lack of interest convinced me of the books current value.
My question... If a second similar coin was in another auction, would the buyer buy bid for a second coin. If so how much down would he/she bid for the second coin?
My answer would depend on if I was constrained on capital.
Strategy 1 (constrained on capital) would be to price the coin at roughly $60K, perhaps accepting $55k if I thought I could get a fast sale. A 10% one-month return is an annualized 120% rate of return illustrating how a continually fast turn of inventory even at lower margins generates a stronger ROIC.
Strategy 2 (unconstrained on capital) would be to price the coin at $75,000 believing that if one hasn't shown in 10 years, someone will need it eventually, even if it took a year. 50% annualized rate of return less cost of capital. If I was constrained on capital and I was able to generate returns outlined in strategy 1 this would tie up funds which would otherwise generate better returns at faster turnover and lower margins.
Latin American Collection
Sometimes they don't even reflect wholesale pricing. They reflect a moment in time. I've bought gold coins that I immediately scrapped at melt from Heritage.
And, of course, the opposite is also true. A coin might sell for a number that won't ever be seen again.
One sale does not make a market and that you won it for $50k (presumably a steal) wouldn’t suggest toward a lower evaluation. Without knowing the series, grading services, originality, CAC status, etc., it is hard to say more. For some series CDN is low. For others it is high.
Since it hadn’t been seen publicly in 10 years, I’d probably ask the full price guide value of $100,000, accept offers, throw in a lot of glimmering marketing hooks, and let the chips fall where they fall. As far as to what I accept, it would depend on opportunity cost and my personal cash flow.
Great example incorporating the time value of money.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
Considering it’s cost of $50k / Ideally want move in the $65k CDN Bid - $100K PG Retail range. But other factors based on Mkt conditions and how quickly want move it. Not a wholesaler but might discount some below its $100 K MV. One play call - Start negotiation at $115K (especially if it’s PQ)? - let them talk down to $100k get double bubble works perfectly. If they that rich and badly want it…. Most likely it’s the only one in bourse room.
First of all I am not a wholesaler. Furthermore I have significant fixed and variable costs to recover. My professional background outside of coins is in Cost & Financial accounting. For my coin biz have developed inventory acctg spreadsheets with all pertinent data. Plus custom acctg structure for financial analysis / reporting.
Assuming item bought right, and in plan range would try price in standard range ( CDN Bid / CPG) per market conditions. If unknown CDN data price cost plus vs competitors (beat their price). We don’t leave money on the table. Overhead expenses are unforgiving. Goal to move it quickly and room for negotiation helps. Not stuck in concrete on a price. Sometimes a loss unavoidable due to market conditions. A,B,C material priced accordingly.
Would be priced somewhere between CDN Bid / CPG. Unless some Mkt reason price higher. Price negotiable depending on room. What I paid for it is Confidential with the seller and proprietary data of the business.
Not every price realized at a public auction represents what the coin is really worth. Some coins "slip through the cracks". When I was a dealer, I bought a coin at auction for less than $12K all-in, sold it two days later for $32K, the seller eventually sold it in the neighborhood of $50K.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Depends upon who walks up to the table. Tire kickers can take their BS somewhere else. If they get nasty, my taekwondo trained assistant will wrestle them away. Smash mouth football, QB stands aside. Would price keystone markup making twice my cost. Also mexican coins and currency hot right now. Customers gone wild. lol
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Well if I just bought it, it would not be for sale. But playing along, I'd like to make 3% on a big ticket item like that, after fees...
Auction prices can be what somebody overpaid or gave it away for. Past history. Like if deciding what to bid may Calc auc avg if that available. Ultimately what think can sell for the trump card In bid decision.
There will be players off the bourse who will try hose you with some know it all spiel try talk you down. Be polite, enjoy it for its entertainment value, but above all don’t give it away. If they become obnoxious it’s time for them to leave.
We need to add a name to the Famous Collector thread (https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1107281/famous-folk-who-collected-coins). Apparently Rich Little is a coin collector also!
PS - In what other forum could I drop that reference and be confident it will be understood by the vast majority of people?
I'm thinking that if I was willing to go to $55K (and was intending to sell it, as a dealer would) then I must think that it's worth more than that. So if I won it at $50K I'd probably price it at $5,750 [edited to: $57,500] or thereabouts.
That's a big loss. 😄
I would ask 2x price guide.
The coin was massively undergraded in its holder and easily got a gold sticker when I sent it to CAC. The reason it sold so cheaply at auction is that the photographer sneezed right before taking the shot and the cataloguer forgot to mention it was pedigreed to the mfeld collection.
POR
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
That'd be me. I've never sold a coin for anywhere near what I paid. I usually pay retail and sell for 10-20% under Greysheet. LMAO!
My Carson City Morgan Registry Set
That's an instant turn off to me.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I always suspected that you and @Cougar1978 were the same person posting under two different accounts.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I read this and didn't even notice it wasn't Cougar
Collector of Capped Bust Halves, SLQ's, Commems, and random cool stuff! @davidv_numismatics on Instagram
C'mon we've waited long enough, what is the coin?
Why would you buy a $50K coin without knowing that you could sell it instead of hoping that you could sell it?
@Catbert the funniest post I have read in a long time.😀
Buying coins without knowing that you can sell them for a profit is part of the business - at least for the vast majority of dealers.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld
I thought you might laugh in that I provided the shortest answer thus far.
Sure…POR borderlines on an obnoxious ploy, but it simply was not viable to retain Catbert’s assistant on such short notice before responding as the tirekickers may just be the greater immediate threat.
Your question does deserve a more thoughtful response. I am not completely moved be CDN prices or auction records. And whether one sold in the same grade 10 years at $50K does not help with what I consider to be the more pertinent issues including but not limited to:
I think we all know that two coins within the same grade are not created equal. And while a CDN price of $100K may sound optimistic or inflated-maybe if the coin has the look that truly makes it special and sets it apart from the remaining population, the offering price may be more complicated.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
exactly what @Boosibri wrote, but I'd list at 69K
Exactly, because first thing I would do as the end buyer is take the auction price info to the grading company and get the price guide value dropped to $50,000. Then go to the dealer and negotiate downward from there.
This is a perfect example of a coin that is more likely to lose money for the dealer than to realize much of any gain.
$57,500.00 firm.
If it starts to collect dust $55,000.00.
If there are no takers then it needs to go to auction.
I'm pretty sure that's how many dealers would approach this.
The time line would all depend on my purse.
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
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I was virtually certain that you were kidding, in part, because your "POR" reply was so short. But I figured it was better to go ahead and voice my distaste for POR listings, just in case.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
For excellent eye appeal and not often traded $80K.
For ordinary coin that was 'missed' by the auction for a reason $60K (ready to go to 55).
Regardless of what I try to sell it for, it will be based off what I was willing to pay, not what I actually paid for it (unless once I get the coin in hand again I find something I missed the first time looking).
And that’s what the dealer’s doing in this case. He’s asking (edited to correct the percentages) 11% over what he was willing to pay (but 25% over his cost). If or when I become aware of what the coin sells for, I’ll post an update.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Even if you managed to get the guide value dropped to $50k, that doesn't mean it's going to sell for 50k or less. Both you and the seller KNOW what the seller paid. This is not a game of blind man's buff. You can certainly negotiate, but you will be unlikely to get it for less than 50k even if you get the guide value dropped to 30k. This is especially true for a coin that only pops up every few years.
I've sold many coins and comics from Heritage where I directed the buyer to the Heritage auction where I purchased the item. They know what I paid. They also know what I want. And if my margin is reasonable, they will buy it. If it isn't worth my cost+10% or cost+20% to them, then they better set their alarm clock next time it hits the auction block.
No one is a slave to either the guide or prior sales. It is worth what it is worth to you to acquire at this moment in time.
If the guy starts quoting auction prices to talk me down I just laugh, tell him “ go buy one at auction then.” Or maybe “Do you have one sell me at that.”
As the end buyer in this case with the coin, I almost feel like I have leverage over the dealer because the coin feels “stale”. It just feels like the coin is and was an overvalued example. The coin brings $50k in ~2014 which was a real low point in the market (great buying opportunities back then), and fast forward 10 years through the Covid boom of the coin market and current record high gold prices propping up coin prices, and the coin again sells for the same $50k.
This just sounds like a tough sell coin that has absolutely zero upside to it. If it can’t appreciate in price after 10 years going from a poor market to a robust market, the coin is either a niche widget with a minuscule collector base, or wildly overvalued at $50k.
If I were the dealer, I would price at $55k, and gladly dump it at my $50k cost to be rid of it. The dealer who bought it at $50k needs to reevaluate their business model.
The dealer who bought the coin is an extremely knowledgeable, large buyer, who’s very much in tune with values and the state of the market. His business model’s been working quite well for the past two decades.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
First thing that popped in my head with that statement is you’re going to bump this post 10 years from now saying the dealer finally sold the coin for $50k (again).
Based on my observations, he’s not likely to stock the coin for quite that long, even if it means taking a loss.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Obviously, but what percent play in the $50K and up area?
Why just bump it up to $125 K see if some rich buyer out there really wanting it.
Some of u imo going in wrong direction using cost as a basis lol. Your ripping yourself. Take the pickoff to the bank (put in inventory) then shoot for MV plus. Nope I throw out the low bal bids. Or at least MV discounted 3-5 pct.
Why not bump it up to $110k slightly over $100 K MV go for some real gusto vs giving it away at some small lame pct over what I paid scoring it for? Perhaps it’s a low pop key a wealthy investor has to have. The only one in the bourse room…. Then rich guy having to have it steps up pays the money. Or go to $125k then (goal sell it in &110-$ 125 k range)
Because he treats people fairly.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I don’t know what percent, but there are lots of $50,000+ coins out there and plenty of dealers will stock them at what they consider to be reasonable levels.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
$125k might be fair though. Underbidders on an obscure piece are often not a good determiner of value.
It most certainly wouldn’t be fair, based on what various examples at different grade levels sell for or by any other realistic basis.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.