@willy said:
It might for some, depends on your strategy and what the core value of the collection is. I would continue to buy problem free material even if I get less of it less often.
Once a beginner with more cash and desire than experience, I’ve already learned what it’s like buying and selling problems and now that my tuition is (mostly) behind me, I’d rather not double dip in that end of the pool ever again. I’ve spent a long time high grading my collection and would never want to go backwards in this regard. Now that I’ve become an elitist snob, I recognize originality and cherish quality over quantity and if and when I go to sell I don’t want to present a piece with any “but for’s”.
As far as problems go, I don’t like to make someone else’s problem my problem at any price, although I am well aware there is a market for problem coins, I’m simply not interested in them.
This is exactly the way I feel about Detail coins. Well said @WildIdea
While I totally agree, I just can't help buying PCGS copper coins that are questionable color if they look okay, then get them graded raw after some hammer time. My success rate has been running over 75% this year, but then perhaps I'm just enjoying breaking slabs too much.
@oldabeintx said:
Not long ago I saw a very nice details chain cent with what I considered a minor rim bump. Surfaces were far superior to most chains, which are often straight-graded with what I consider questionable porosity and other issues. As with graded coins, buy the coin not the plastic.
Many pre 1815 coins I'd consider to be problem coins, regardless of if they're in TPG plastic or not.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
If they are very rare or that is all I can afford or both then I will buy them. I rather own very rare coins than not unless it is a complete mess and cannot see any details or close to none. But if it is unique and I need it I may just buy it if there is enough details still left and not just a faded piece of metal.
Even nicely toned coinage with minor trouble will be of interest due to a nice toned appearance. The toning attraction could make its minor issue be less noticable. Also a type set inclusive of minor issues is still appealing. As it can be a cheaper way to display coins to teach the unaware all about coins and their history.
Now if we could just solve the problem of current collectors with major problems.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
There is quality in every grade.
Find nice looking detailed graded coins ,crack them out and put in Dansco type set 7070 album.
save a lot of money and refine your eye to find those nice eye appeal detailed coins.
I have some that are so lightly cleaned its hard to tell and they probably just missed a straight grade.
they are out there and discounted too. Have fun finding those. As everyone passes them buy.
negotiate price down further. Lots of collector meat on the bone here.
Details, discounted, auction blow out, bezel and somebody’s eBay store with description “Fantastic investment buy / your chance procure like the dealers do, wholesale blowout of estate, etc.”. If yours just start the auction at 99c.
A problem coin dealer I know buys problem & details coins all the time. Says makes more money on them too (50-100 pct markup or more). “You just gotta know the sweet spot and work your angle. The album feeders get them for their albums, great profits there.”
When I sold my collection the first time, the dealer found a problem with every coin, even some of the slabs from #1 and #2. I was quite disapointed and got completely out of coins for years. Collected stamps and you know how that went. Anyway, I stopped buying coins and bought the books AND READ THEM! I took several grading seminars too. Now, I don't feel scared buying raw coins. The proof is I have sold coins for a profit or broke even whenever I needed money for something different. Bottom line: I don't buy problem coins of any kind and if a dealer tries to tell me one of my coins has a problem I educate his butt real quick! This limits the types of coins I buy because problem free coins in some series (Bust half dollars for example) are out of my price range.
The only problem coins that I look at now are PCGS mint state questionable color (91) cents. If I disagree, I buy it, pop it and send it to ANACS. Most come back with a straight grade, since they actually are not cleaned or anything. But it takes a real good look at them to decide before jumping. Won't buy those labeled as cleaned though unless really key dates at cheap prices that I can turn over at a fair profit from those who need the date and cannot afford a straight grade.
Personally, I own one: 1917 DDO EF details, since I am not spending that much on something just to fill out my unc slab set. Even the 22 no D is a straight grade, albeit an AU. Everything else is MS63-68 as reasonableness prevail occasionally.
The day may come when a polished XF coin will be “authenticity unverifiable”, but a fresh VG with a staple scratch will get holdered. Which is not a suggestion to put your life’s savings into staple-scratched coins. Just food for thought.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@MrEureka said:
The day may come when a polished XF coin will be “authenticity unverifiable”, but a fresh VG with a staple scratch will get holdered. Which is not a suggestion to put your life’s savings into staple-scratched coins. Just food for thought.
@MrEureka said:
The day may come when a polished XF coin will be “authenticity unverifiable”, but a fresh VG with a staple scratch will get holdered. Which is not a suggestion to put your life’s savings into staple-scratched coins. Just food for thought.
How do the experts authenticate polished coins?
That can’t be answered anymore easily than if you asked about authenticating any coin. Better to ask why it might be more difficult to authenticate a polished coin.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I don't buy problem coins. Because they don't exist.
Coins with scratches etc. exhibit defects, not problems.
A true problem implies that a solution exists.
One can't unscratch a coin (though one can attempt to hide the scratch).
Therefore, a scratched coin is not a problem coin, It is instead a coin with a permanent defect.
@Overdate said:
I don't buy problem coins. Because they don't exist.
Coins with scratches etc. exhibit defects, not problems.
A true problem implies that a solution exists.
One can't unscratch a coin (though one can attempt to hide the scratch).
Therefore, a scratched coin is not a problem coin, It is instead a coin with a permanent defect.
Problem coins have solutions. They can be avoided by buyers and they can be discounted by sellers. But nice try! 😉
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@Overdate said:
I don't buy problem coins. Because they don't exist.
Coins with scratches etc. exhibit defects, not problems.
A true problem implies that a solution exists.
One can't unscratch a coin (though one can attempt to hide the scratch).
Therefore, a scratched coin is not a problem coin, It is instead a coin with a permanent defect.
Problem coins have solutions. They can be avoided by buyers and they can be discounted by sellers. But nice try! 😉
Two things:
If problem coins have solutions, then by definition they are no longer problem coins once a solution is applied.
Your same "solution" can be applied to coins in series that go out of favor and coins below a certain grade. Does this make them problem coins?
@Overdate said:
I don't buy problem coins. Because they don't exist.
Coins with scratches etc. exhibit defects, not problems.
A true problem implies that a solution exists.
One can't unscratch a coin (though one can attempt to hide the scratch).
Therefore, a scratched coin is not a problem coin, It is instead a coin with a permanent defect.
Problem coins have solutions. They can be avoided by buyers and they can be discounted by sellers. But nice try! 😉
Two things:
If problem coins have solutions, then by definition they are no longer problem coins once a solution is applied.
Your same "solution" can be applied to coins in series that go out of favor and coins below a certain grade. Does this make them problem coins?
But nice try! 😉
Swing and a miss! "Problem coins" and "Detail" coins ARE THE SAME THING and IMO when 5 star posters start clouding the issue with little "nits" it confuses uninformed collectors. Sooner or later a new member is going to post a coin cut in half and not consider it to be a problem coin.
Totally disagree with that, although I'm not complete yet it can be done within a budget and without detailed coins
Just look harder for clean coins, they are out there
OK we haven't set a size of "budget" here, but please do point me to a straight graded half disme, 1808 $2.50 gold, small eagle quarter, small eagle half, and chain cent within this budget?
@Overdate said:
I don't buy problem coins. Because they don't exist.
Coins with scratches etc. exhibit defects, not problems.
A true problem implies that a solution exists.
One can't unscratch a coin (though one can attempt to hide the scratch).
Therefore, a scratched coin is not a problem coin, It is instead a coin with a permanent defect.
Problem coins have solutions. They can be avoided by buyers and they can be discounted by sellers. But nice try! 😉
Two things:
If problem coins have solutions, then by definition they are no longer problem coins once a solution is applied.
Your same "solution" can be applied to coins in series that go out of favor and coins below a certain grade. Does this make them problem coins?
But nice try! 😉
Swing and a miss! "Problem coins" and "Detail" coins ARE THE SAME THING and IMO when 5 star posters start clouding the issue with little "nits" it confuses uninformed collectors. Sooner or later a new member is going to post a coin cut in half and not consider it to be a problem coin.
Really? Let me know when this happens. "Problem coins" and "Detail" coins are not the same thing, even in capital letters. "Details" is simply a grade assigned to a coin by a TPG when it doesn't meet their standards for a straight grade. If "uninformed collectors" are so easily confused by such distinctions, then how can they cope with a discussion about the difference between MS60 and MS61? I think "uninformed collectors" are a lot less fragile than you imply.
@Overdate said:
I don't buy problem coins. Because they don't exist.
Coins with scratches etc. exhibit defects, not problems.
A true problem implies that a solution exists.
One can't unscratch a coin (though one can attempt to hide the scratch).
Therefore, a scratched coin is not a problem coin, It is instead a coin with a permanent defect.
Problem coins have solutions. They can be avoided by buyers and they can be discounted by sellers. But nice try! 😉
Two things:
If problem coins have solutions, then by definition they are no longer problem coins once a solution is applied.
Your same "solution" can be applied to coins in series that go out of favor and coins below a certain grade. Does this make them problem coins?
But nice try! 😉
Swing and a miss! "Problem coins" and "Detail" coins ARE THE SAME THING and IMO when 5 star posters start clouding the issue with little "nits" it confuses uninformed collectors. Sooner or later a new member is going to post a coin cut in half and not consider it to be a problem coin.
Really? Let me know when this happens. "Problem coins" and "Detail" coins are not the same thing, even in capital letters. "Details" is simply a grade assigned to a coin by a TPG when it doesn't meet their standards for a straight grade. If "uninformed collectors" are so easily confused by such distinctions, then how can they cope with a discussion about the difference between MS60 and MS61? I think "uninformed collectors" are a lot less fragile than you imply.
Details coins have at least one problem or they would have been straight graded. I've never seen a details graded coin in a major grading service slab that didn't also show what the problem was on the label (cleaned, scratch, holed, etc.). Can you show us a pic of a details graded coin where a problem isn't indicated on the label?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@Overdate said:
I don't buy problem coins. Because they don't exist.
Coins with scratches etc. exhibit defects, not problems.
A true problem implies that a solution exists.
One can't unscratch a coin (though one can attempt to hide the scratch).
Therefore, a scratched coin is not a problem coin, It is instead a coin with a permanent defect.
Problem coins have solutions. They can be avoided by buyers and they can be discounted by sellers. But nice try! 😉
Two things:
If problem coins have solutions, then by definition they are no longer problem coins once a solution is applied.
Your same "solution" can be applied to coins in series that go out of favor and coins below a certain grade. Does this make them problem coins?
But nice try! 😉
Swing and a miss! "Problem coins" and "Detail" coins ARE THE SAME THING and IMO when 5 star posters start clouding the issue with little "nits" it confuses uninformed collectors. Sooner or later a new member is going to post a coin cut in half and not consider it to be a problem coin.
Really? Let me know when this happens. "Problem coins" and "Detail" coins are not the same thing, even in capital letters. "Details" is simply a grade assigned to a coin by a TPG when it doesn't meet their standards for a straight grade. If "uninformed collectors" are so easily confused by such distinctions, then how can they cope with a discussion about the difference between MS60 and MS61? I think "uninformed collectors" are a lot less fragile than you imply.
Details coins have at least one problem or they would have been straight graded. I've never seen a details graded coin in a major grading service slab that didn't also show what the problem was on the label (cleaned, scratch, holed, etc.). Can you show us a pic of a details graded coin where a problem isn't indicated on the label?
This is simply a difference in opinion as to the terminology used to describe a defect in a coin. I prefer to use the term "defect" because the term "problem" implies that there is a solution that will make the "problem" on the coin disappear. No TPG that I know of uses the word "problem" on the label. Instead the label describes one or more defects that prevent the coin from obtaining a straight grade. The "details" grade is presumably the grade that would have been assigned to the coin if it had straight graded. The coin itself has a defect, not a problem, because no solution to the supposed "problem" is possible.
there are three general types of defects—defects of design, manufacturing, or marketing. A design defect refers to a flaw inherent in a product itself, while a manufacturing defect refers to an unintended deficiency resultant from the production process
Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM
@Overdate said:
I don't buy problem coins. Because they don't exist.
Coins with scratches etc. exhibit defects, not problems.
A true problem implies that a solution exists.
One can't unscratch a coin (though one can attempt to hide the scratch).
Therefore, a scratched coin is not a problem coin, It is instead a coin with a permanent defect.
Problem coins have solutions. They can be avoided by buyers and they can be discounted by sellers. But nice try! 😉
Two things:
If problem coins have solutions, then by definition they are no longer problem coins once a solution is applied.
Your same "solution" can be applied to coins in series that go out of favor and coins below a certain grade. Does this make them problem coins?
But nice try! 😉
Swing and a miss! "Problem coins" and "Detail" coins ARE THE SAME THING and IMO when 5 star posters start clouding the issue with little "nits" it confuses uninformed collectors. Sooner or later a new member is going to post a coin cut in half and not consider it to be a problem coin.
Really? Let me know when this happens. "Problem coins" and "Detail" coins are NOT the same thing, even in capital letters. "Details" is simply a grade assigned to a [PROBLEM COIN] coin by a TPG when it doesn't meet their standards for a straight grade."
See, even you appear to be confused or backed into a corner so that you need to bring in coin grades rather than stay on track! Detail grades are assigned to some coins with (shall I say) "imperfections."
@Overdate said:
I don't buy problem coins. Because they don't exist.
Coins with scratches etc. exhibit defects, not problems.
A true problem implies that a solution exists.
One can't unscratch a coin (though one can attempt to hide the scratch).
Therefore, a scratched coin is not a problem coin, It is instead a coin with a permanent defect.
Problem coins have solutions. They can be avoided by buyers and they can be discounted by sellers. But nice try! 😉
Two things:
If problem coins have solutions, then by definition they are no longer problem coins once a solution is applied.
Your same "solution" can be applied to coins in series that go out of favor and coins below a certain grade. Does this make them problem coins?
But nice try! 😉
Swing and a miss! "Problem coins" and "Detail" coins ARE THE SAME THING and IMO when 5 star posters start clouding the issue with little "nits" it confuses uninformed collectors. Sooner or later a new member is going to post a coin cut in half and not consider it to be a problem coin.
Really? Let me know when this happens. "Problem coins" and "Detail" coins are not the same thing, even in capital letters. "Details" is simply a grade assigned to a coin by a TPG when it doesn't meet their standards for a straight grade. If "uninformed collectors" are so easily confused by such distinctions, then how can they cope with a discussion about the difference between MS60 and MS61? I think "uninformed collectors" are a lot less fragile than you imply.
Details coins have at least one problem or they would have been straight graded. I've never seen a details graded coin in a major grading service slab that didn't also show what the problem was on the label (cleaned, scratch, holed, etc.). Can you show us a pic of a details graded coin where a problem isn't indicated on the label?
Easy, any straight graded coin that many would consider to have a problem yet the TPGS either did not see it or ignored it as "market acceptable."
@Overdate said:
I don't buy problem coins. Because they don't exist.
Coins with scratches etc. exhibit defects, not problems.
A true problem implies that a solution exists.
One can't unscratch a coin (though one can attempt to hide the scratch).
Therefore, a scratched coin is not a problem coin, It is instead a coin with a permanent defect.
Problem coins have solutions. They can be avoided by buyers and they can be discounted by sellers. But nice try! 😉
Two things:
If problem coins have solutions, then by definition they are no longer problem coins once a solution is applied.
Your same "solution" can be applied to coins in series that go out of favor and coins below a certain grade. Does this make them problem coins?
But nice try! 😉
Swing and a miss! "Problem coins" and "Detail" coins ARE THE SAME THING and IMO when 5 star posters start clouding the issue with little "nits" it confuses uninformed collectors. Sooner or later a new member is going to post a coin cut in half and not consider it to be a problem coin.
Really? Let me know when this happens. "Problem coins" and "Detail" coins are not the same thing, even in capital letters. "Details" is simply a grade assigned to a coin by a TPG when it doesn't meet their standards for a straight grade. If "uninformed collectors" are so easily confused by such distinctions, then how can they cope with a discussion about the difference between MS60 and MS61? I think "uninformed collectors" are a lot less fragile than you imply.
Details coins have at least one problem or they would have been straight graded. I've never seen a details graded coin in a major grading service slab that didn't also show what the problem was on the label (cleaned, scratch, holed, etc.). Can you show us a pic of a details graded coin where a problem isn't indicated on the label?
This is simply a difference in opinion as to the terminology used to describe a defect in a coin. I prefer to use the term "defect" because the term "problem" implies that there is a solution that will make the "problem" on the coin disappear. No TPG that I know of uses the word "problem" on the label. Instead the label describes one or more defects that prevent the coin from obtaining a straight grade. The "details" grade is presumably the grade that would have been assigned to the coin if it had straight graded. The coin itself has a defect, not a problem, because no solution to the supposed "problem" is possible.
OK, then Details coins and coins with a defect are the same. I feel this is a silly waste of time discussing words that most of us who are not expert numismatists use interchangeably. However, words mean something so I'll let the members who obviousy know more than I set me straight. Thanks!!
@Overdate said:
I don't buy problem coins. Because they don't exist.
Coins with scratches etc. exhibit defects, not problems.
A true problem implies that a solution exists.
One can't unscratch a coin (though one can attempt to hide the scratch).
Therefore, a scratched coin is not a problem coin, It is instead a coin with a permanent defect.
Problem coins have solutions. They can be avoided by buyers and they can be discounted by sellers. But nice try! 😉
Two things:
If problem coins have solutions, then by definition they are no longer problem coins once a solution is applied.
Your same "solution" can be applied to coins in series that go out of favor and coins below a certain grade. Does this make them problem coins?
But nice try! 😉
Swing and a miss! "Problem coins" and "Detail" coins ARE THE SAME THING and IMO when 5 star posters start clouding the issue with little "nits" it confuses uninformed collectors. Sooner or later a new member is going to post a coin cut in half and not consider it to be a problem coin.
Really? Let me know when this happens. "Problem coins" and "Detail" coins are NOT the same thing, even in capital letters. "Details" is simply a grade assigned to a [PROBLEM COIN] coin by a TPG when it doesn't meet their standards for a straight grade."
See, even you appear to be confused or backed into a corner so that you need to bring in coin grades rather than stay on track! Detail grades are assigned to some coins with (shall I say) "imperfections."
A few food for thought comments:
Shouldn't a distinction be made between "damage"/"details"/"problems" that occur naturally in commerce vs the intentional changes made outside of commerce? For example, a scratch vs a dip.
Why isn't preservation acceptable or even encouraged? All "problems " can be fixed, but it's simply frowned upon to do so in the collectable market while it is commonplace in museums. Look at the Sistine Chapel. Is there even one original brush stroke left? If it were a coin, you would all turn up your nose at the "doctored" art.
Virtually all ancient coins are dug and "curated" or "cleaned", yet they straight grade. Yet later coins like shipwreck coins are detail graded if they are similarly "curated".
@Overdate said:
I don't buy problem coins. Because they don't exist.
Coins with scratches etc. exhibit defects, not problems.
A true problem implies that a solution exists.
One can't unscratch a coin (though one can attempt to hide the scratch).
Therefore, a scratched coin is not a problem coin, It is instead a coin with a permanent defect.
Problem coins have solutions. They can be avoided by buyers and they can be discounted by sellers. But nice try! 😉
Two things:
If problem coins have solutions, then by definition they are no longer problem coins once a solution is applied.
Your same "solution" can be applied to coins in series that go out of favor and coins below a certain grade. Does this make them problem coins?
But nice try! 😉
Swing and a miss! "Problem coins" and "Detail" coins ARE THE SAME THING and IMO when 5 star posters start clouding the issue with little "nits" it confuses uninformed collectors. Sooner or later a new member is going to post a coin cut in half and not consider it to be a problem coin.
Really? Let me know when this happens. "Problem coins" and "Detail" coins are NOT the same thing, even in capital letters. "Details" is simply a grade assigned to a [PROBLEM COIN] coin by a TPG when it doesn't meet their standards for a straight grade."
See, even you appear to be confused or backed into a corner so that you need to bring in coin grades rather than stay on track! Detail grades are assigned to some coins with (shall I say) "imperfections."
First, it is customary when quoting someone to quote them accurately and not insert words they did not say.
Second, I was responding to your post discussing coins that were assigned a “details” grade. I was staying “on track” and am not confused at all.
Third, as far as I know, details grades are assigned to all coins with “imperfections” sufficient to preclude a straight grade. This wasn’t always the case in the past.
@Barbercoin1 said:
Opinions please. How much does a small abrasion across the obverse affect this Barber Quarter?
Overall grade?
I wouldn't classify that as a "small abrasion". It is multiple scratches in a prime area of the coin. If offering it for sale it is going to be seriously badmouthed by many buyers. Your task will be to find the buyer that DOES consider the abrasions to be "minor". This is how money is made when problem coins are involved.
Yes, I totally agree. I never really noticed it until I took a close-up picture. I purposefully tilted the coin to reflect as much of the abrasion as I could. No, I'm not selling but was curious to know how much loss of value this creates. Ballpark: without problem and with
@Catbert said:
Why didn’t the TPGs use “defective” instead of “details” on their labels?
.
'Details' is referring to the approximate grade of the coin if it did not have a 'problem' (Example: XF Details).
Here is a pcgs link that discusses the 'Details' and how it came about.
@Overdate said:
I don't buy problem coins. Because they don't exist.
Coins with scratches etc. exhibit defects, not problems.
A true problem implies that a solution exists.
One can't unscratch a coin (though one can attempt to hide the scratch).
Therefore, a scratched coin is not a problem coin, It is instead a coin with a permanent defect.
Problem coins have solutions. They can be avoided by buyers and they can be discounted by sellers. But nice try! 😉
Two things:
If problem coins have solutions, then by definition they are no longer problem coins once a solution is applied.
Your same "solution" can be applied to coins in series that go out of favor and coins below a certain grade. Does this make them problem coins?
But nice try! 😉
Swing and a miss! "Problem coins" and "Detail" coins ARE THE SAME THING and IMO when 5 star posters start clouding the issue with little "nits" it confuses uninformed collectors. Sooner or later a new member is going to post a coin cut in half and not consider it to be a problem coin.
Really? Let me know when this happens. "Problem coins" and "Detail" coins are NOT the same thing, even in capital letters. "Details" is simply a grade assigned to a [PROBLEM COIN] coin by a TPG when it doesn't meet their standards for a straight grade."
See, even you appear to be confused or backed into a corner so that you need to bring in coin grades rather than stay on track! Detail grades are assigned to some coins with (shall I say) "imperfections."
A few food for thought comments:
Shouldn't a distinction be made between "damage"/"details"/"problems" that occur naturally in commerce vs the intentional changes made outside of commerce? For example, a scratch vs a dip.
Why isn't preservation acceptable or even encouraged? All "problems " can be fixed, but it's simply frowned upon to do so in the collectable market while it is commonplace in museums. Look at the Sistine Chapel. Is there even one original brush stroke left? If it were a coin, you would all turn up your nose at the "doctored" art.
Virtually all ancient coins are dug and "curated" or "cleaned", yet they straight grade. Yet later coins like shipwreck coins are detail graded if they are similarly "curated".
A certain amount of restoration is tolerated - PCGS offers a restoration service.
But, to your point, far less is tolerated in the US coin market than in art, classic cars or rare books for example.
@Overdate said: "First, it is customary when quoting someone to quote them accurately and _not insert words _they did not say."
You are correct. That is why [ ] are used to insert comments. In this way, replys can be made directly to the place in the quote where they make the most sense.
"Second, I was responding to your post discussing coins that were assigned a “details” grade. I was staying “on track” and am not confused at all."
All well and good but you sure are confusing me. I learned the difference between MS-60, 61, and 62 in a class taught by a TPGS grader. We also used "details grade" and "problem grade" interchangeably in class. IMO, by making a distinction between those two we might be confusing new members who have not read as much as either of us.
"Third, as far as I know, details grades are assigned to all coins with “imperfections” sufficient to preclude a straight grade. This wasn’t always the case in the past."
Here you go again, what's this have to do with anythingyou and I are discussing?
"Third, as far as I know, details grades are assigned to all coins with “imperfections” sufficient to preclude a straight grade. This wasn’t always the case in the past."
Here you go again, what's this have to do with anything you and I are discussing?
>
If you will re--read your post that I was replying to, you will see that you said, "Detail grades are assigned to some coins with (shall I say) "imperfections." My reply was in direct response to your statement.
"Second, I was responding to your post discussing coins that were assigned a “details” grade. I was staying “on track” and am not confused at all."
All well and good but you sure are confusing me. I learned the difference between MS-60, 61, and 62 in a class taught by a TPGS grader. We also used "details grade" and "problem grade" interchangeably in class. IMO, by making a distinction between those two we might be confusing new members who have not read as much as either of us.
>
If anyone else is confused by what I have clearly stated in my posts, please let me know.
Thanks for continuing to debate. I'll bet I am in agreement with you and just don't see the difference in the words you use.. Some coins with "defects" are detail graded and some are not. I guess it dependes on thegrader. I don't like the word "defect" because ALL COINS HAVE THEM resulting from various causes and many of these defects are not "problems."
"Third, as far as I know, details grades are assigned to all coins with “imperfections” sufficient to preclude a straight grade. This wasn’t always the case in the past."
Here you go again, what's this have to do with anything you and I are discussing?
>
If you will re--read your post that I was replying to, you will see that you said, "Detail grades are assigned to some coins with (shall I say) "imperfections." My reply was in direct response to your statement.
"Second, I was responding to your post discussing coins that were assigned a “details” grade. I was staying “on track” and am not confused at all."
All well and good but you sure are confusing me. I learned the difference between MS-60, 61, and 62 in a class taught by a TPGS grader. We also used "details grade" and "problem grade" interchangeably in class. IMO, by making a distinction between those two we might be confusing new members who have not read as much as either of us.
>
If anyone else is confused by what I have clearly stated in my posts, please let me know.
Actually, they do still body bag coins under certain circumstances including "altered surface". I'm still trying to figure out how much altering gets the bag since "tooled " gets the details slab.
Comments
While I totally agree, I just can't help buying PCGS copper coins that are questionable color if they look okay, then get them graded raw after some hammer time. My success rate has been running over 75% this year, but then perhaps I'm just enjoying breaking slabs too much.
Many pre 1815 coins I'd consider to be problem coins, regardless of if they're in TPG plastic or not.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
If they are very rare or that is all I can afford or both then I will buy them. I rather own very rare coins than not unless it is a complete mess and cannot see any details or close to none. But if it is unique and I need it I may just buy it if there is enough details still left and not just a faded piece of metal.
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
Even nicely toned coinage with minor trouble will be of interest due to a nice toned appearance. The toning attraction could make its minor issue be less noticable. Also a type set inclusive of minor issues is still appealing. As it can be a cheaper way to display coins to teach the unaware all about coins and their history.
Now if we could just solve the problem of current collectors with major problems.
There is quality in every grade.
Find nice looking detailed graded coins ,crack them out and put in Dansco type set 7070 album.
save a lot of money and refine your eye to find those nice eye appeal detailed coins.
I have some that are so lightly cleaned its hard to tell and they probably just missed a straight grade.
they are out there and discounted too. Have fun finding those. As everyone passes them buy.
negotiate price down further. Lots of collector meat on the bone here.
Details, discounted, auction blow out, bezel and somebody’s eBay store with description “Fantastic investment buy / your chance procure like the dealers do, wholesale blowout of estate, etc.”. If yours just start the auction at 99c.
A problem coin dealer I know buys problem & details coins all the time. Says makes more money on them too (50-100 pct markup or more). “You just gotta know the sweet spot and work your angle. The album feeders get them for their albums, great profits there.”
When I sold my collection the first time, the dealer found a problem with every coin, even some of the slabs from #1 and #2. I was quite disapointed and got completely out of coins for years. Collected stamps and you know how that went. Anyway, I stopped buying coins and bought the books AND READ THEM! I took several grading seminars too. Now, I don't feel scared buying raw coins. The proof is I have sold coins for a profit or broke even whenever I needed money for something different. Bottom line: I don't buy problem coins of any kind and if a dealer tries to tell me one of my coins has a problem I educate his butt real quick! This limits the types of coins I buy because problem free coins in some series (Bust half dollars for example) are out of my price range.
The only problem coins that I look at now are PCGS mint state questionable color (91) cents. If I disagree, I buy it, pop it and send it to ANACS. Most come back with a straight grade, since they actually are not cleaned or anything. But it takes a real good look at them to decide before jumping. Won't buy those labeled as cleaned though unless really key dates at cheap prices that I can turn over at a fair profit from those who need the date and cannot afford a straight grade.
Personally, I own one: 1917 DDO EF details, since I am not spending that much on something just to fill out my unc slab set. Even the 22 no D is a straight grade, albeit an AU. Everything else is MS63-68 as reasonableness prevail occasionally.
The new sticker-
PSFT- Passes Straight Face Test
FSFT- Fails Straight Face Test
So every coin gets a sticker...
I'll leave it to the more creative folks to come up with a design
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
PA3MTPGST = Passes all five major TPGS tests.
or
PA5MTPGST = depending on what you think about ANACS and ICG.
The future is bright, especially for coins that have been cleaned or dipped.
May they never tarnish nor corrode again!
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
it will co-exist with issue free coins
The future is problematic.
The day may come when a polished XF coin will be “authenticity unverifiable”, but a fresh VG with a staple scratch will get holdered. Which is not a suggestion to put your life’s savings into staple-scratched coins. Just food for thought.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
How do the experts authenticate polished coins?
That can’t be answered anymore easily than if you asked about authenticating any coin. Better to ask why it might be more difficult to authenticate a polished coin.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Same thing. I guess because there is no surface left. I might start a knew discussion. Thanks.
I don't buy problem coins. Because they don't exist.
Coins with scratches etc. exhibit defects, not problems.
A true problem implies that a solution exists.
One can't unscratch a coin (though one can attempt to hide the scratch).
Therefore, a scratched coin is not a problem coin, It is instead a coin with a permanent defect.
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Problem coins have solutions. They can be avoided by buyers and they can be discounted by sellers. But nice try! 😉
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Two things:
If problem coins have solutions, then by definition they are no longer problem coins once a solution is applied.
Your same "solution" can be applied to coins in series that go out of favor and coins below a certain grade. Does this make them problem coins?
But nice try! 😉
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
A defect would imply that something went wrong during the minting process, so it isn't that either. @Overdate
I think we can all agree that problem coins means damaged in some way. Whether accidental or intentional.
Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM
They will continue to have minor problems, they will continue to be bought and sold and collected. Life will go on.
They are strongly discounted accordingly (estate pickups) and I pass on them if procuring material at a show.
Swing and a miss! "Problem coins" and "Detail" coins ARE THE SAME THING and IMO when 5 star posters start clouding the issue with little "nits" it confuses uninformed collectors. Sooner or later a new member is going to post a coin cut in half and not consider it to be a problem coin.
I found you a nice Chain
https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1565101/1793-Chain-Cent-AMERICA-PCGS-AU-50-BN
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
That might well be but, Not in my house
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
Really? Let me know when this happens. "Problem coins" and "Detail" coins are not the same thing, even in capital letters. "Details" is simply a grade assigned to a coin by a TPG when it doesn't meet their standards for a straight grade. If "uninformed collectors" are so easily confused by such distinctions, then how can they cope with a discussion about the difference between MS60 and MS61? I think "uninformed collectors" are a lot less fragile than you imply.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Details coins have at least one problem or they would have been straight graded. I've never seen a details graded coin in a major grading service slab that didn't also show what the problem was on the label (cleaned, scratch, holed, etc.). Can you show us a pic of a details graded coin where a problem isn't indicated on the label?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
This is simply a difference in opinion as to the terminology used to describe a defect in a coin. I prefer to use the term "defect" because the term "problem" implies that there is a solution that will make the "problem" on the coin disappear. No TPG that I know of uses the word "problem" on the label. Instead the label describes one or more defects that prevent the coin from obtaining a straight grade. The "details" grade is presumably the grade that would have been assigned to the coin if it had straight graded. The coin itself has a defect, not a problem, because no solution to the supposed "problem" is possible.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
A problem can exist which has no solution.
But I agree it is just one of many possible words to describe this phenomenon.
Dictionary.com defines defect as "a shortcoming, fault, or imperfection." It says nothing about the manufacturing process.
"I think we can all agree that problem coins means damaged in some way. Whether accidental or intentional."
All of my recent posts say otherwise.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
there are three general types of defects—defects of design, manufacturing, or marketing. A design defect refers to a flaw inherent in a product itself, while a manufacturing defect refers to an unintended deficiency resultant from the production process
Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM
See, even you appear to be confused or backed into a corner so that you need to bring in coin grades rather than stay on track! Detail grades are assigned to some coins with (shall I say) "imperfections."
Easy, any straight graded coin that many would consider to have a problem yet the TPGS either did not see it or ignored it as "market acceptable."
OK, then Details coins and coins with a defect are the same. I feel this is a silly waste of time discussing words that most of us who are not expert numismatists use interchangeably. However, words mean something so I'll let the members who obviousy know more than I set me straight. Thanks!!
Why didn’t the TPGs use “defective” instead of “details” on their labels?
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
A few food for thought comments:
First, it is customary when quoting someone to quote them accurately and not insert words they did not say.
Second, I was responding to your post discussing coins that were assigned a “details” grade. I was staying “on track” and am not confused at all.
Third, as far as I know, details grades are assigned to all coins with “imperfections” sufficient to preclude a straight grade. This wasn’t always the case in the past.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Opinions please. How much does a small abrasion across the obverse affect this Barber Quarter?
Overall grade?
I wouldn't classify that as a "small abrasion". It is multiple scratches in a prime area of the coin. If offering it for sale it is going to be seriously badmouthed by many buyers. Your task will be to find the buyer that DOES consider the abrasions to be "minor". This is how money is made when problem coins are involved.
Yes, I totally agree. I never really noticed it until I took a close-up picture. I purposefully tilted the coin to reflect as much of the abrasion as I could. No, I'm not selling but was curious to know how much loss of value this creates. Ballpark: without problem and with
Thanks
i would expect the Barber coin to be discounted about 20%. just my opinion. james
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'Details' is referring to the approximate grade of the coin if it did not have a 'problem' (Example: XF Details).
Here is a pcgs link that discusses the 'Details' and how it came about.
https://www.pcgs.com/news/my-coin-got-a-details-grade-what-does-that-mean
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
My comment was a bit tongue-in-cheek.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
A certain amount of restoration is tolerated - PCGS offers a restoration service.
But, to your point, far less is tolerated in the US coin market than in art, classic cars or rare books for example.
You are correct. That is why [ ] are used to insert comments. In this way, replys can be made directly to the place in the quote where they make the most sense.
All well and good but you sure are confusing me. I learned the difference between MS-60, 61, and 62 in a class taught by a TPGS grader. We also used "details grade" and "problem grade" interchangeably in class. IMO, by making a distinction between those two we might be confusing new members who have not read as much as either of us.
Here you go again, what's this have to do with anythingyou and I are discussing?
>
If you will re--read your post that I was replying to, you will see that you said, "Detail grades are assigned to some coins with (shall I say) "imperfections." My reply was in direct response to your statement.
>
If anyone else is confused by what I have clearly stated in my posts, please let me know.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Thanks for continuing to debate. I'll bet I am in agreement with you and just don't see the difference in the words you use.. Some coins with "defects" are detail graded and some are not. I guess it dependes on thegrader. I don't like the word "defect" because ALL COINS HAVE THEM resulting from various causes and many of these defects are not "problems."
Actually, they do still body bag coins under certain circumstances including "altered surface". I'm still trying to figure out how much altering gets the bag since "tooled " gets the details slab.