What is the future for coins with minor problems?
291fifth
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Prices for problem-free coins are now reaching levels that will price many collectors out of the market. Will the market for coins with minor problems that prevent them from getting a "straight" grade from the major TPGs gain in popularity as a result? Think light cleaning, small scratch, minor rim bump, etc.
All glory is fleeting.
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They already do sell. They just sell at a discount and will continue to do so.
Agree! There is quite a robust market for ‘details’ coins.
As a car salesman customer of mine used to say,
There’s a butt for every seat
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
It might for some, depends on your strategy and what the core value of the collection is. I would continue to buy problem free material even if I get less of it less often.
Once a beginner with more cash and desire than experience, I’ve already learned what it’s like buying and selling problems and now that my tuition is (mostly) behind me, I’d rather not double dip in that end of the pool ever again. I’ve spent a long time high grading my collection and would never want to go backwards in this regard. Now that I’ve become an elitist snob, I recognize originality and cherish quality over quantity and if and when I go to sell I don’t want to present a piece with any “but for’s”.
As far as problems go, I don’t like to make someone else’s problem my problem at any price, although I am well aware there is a market for problem coins, I’m simply not interested in them.
Check out Charlotte and Dahlonega coins on eBay. Almost all are details coins. Someone has to be buying them. Just not me.
They definitely sell when the coin is already scarce and very expensive with no problems.
For example the $10 1795 small eagle - 5 of the 25 most recent auction sales were details coins:
https://www.pcgs.com/auctionprices/details/1795-small-eagle-ms/88066
For less valuable coins, they will take longer to sell.
I thought I accidentally bought them all up, raw, in the 90s and early 2000s.
For the ones that are left, I think they’ll just continue trading around to collectors who appreciate what they are (and are not).
I buy details coins as exceptions. Some Colonial varieties, a few foreign that are counter stamped or very old with honest damage. Never any coins that have been intentionally altered, at least not yet. There are some cleaned coins that have tempted me but I would have to see the coin in hand.
Great collections is now offering a bunch of details coins, so there seems to be an active market for them.
We're going to need someone to apply a sticker to details slabs where the problem is close to market acceptable for a straight grade.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
It might for some, depends on your strategy and what the core value of the collection is. I would continue to buy problem free material even if I get less of it less often.
Once a beginner with more cash and desire than experience, I’ve already learned what it’s like buying and selling problems and now that my tuition is (mostly) behind me, I’d rather not double dip in that end of the pool ever again. I’ve spent a long time high grading my collection and would never want to go backwards in this regard. Now that I’ve become an elitist snob, I recognize originality and cherish quality over quantity and if and when I go to sell I don’t want to present a piece with any “but for’s”.
As far as problems go, I don’t like to make someone else’s problem my problem at any price, although I am well aware there is a market for problem coins, I’m simply not interested in them.
This is exactly the way I feel about Detail coins. Well said @WildIdea
Some people treat details coins as though they are radioactive. Are they really any different than circulated coins? They just have different imperfections. An AU details with a small scratch or similar minor problem like a rim nick is going to be much closer to the original than an AG3. Further, the details problem may well have been picked up in commerce.
Yeah, I’m one of these. Generally I just don’t want the hassle. That said, I’ve seen some great looking details coins.
If it’s a details because of a scratch, it’s probably gonna keep drawing my eye. If it’s details lightly cleaned then who knows what may develop later on the coin. Yes, many are stable, but I’m not gonna take that chance.
I treat buying coins like I used to treat dating. I don’t want any baggage. I want a problem free issue.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
Lol. I'm guessing you're still single.
My guess is that they will have the same future as their past, problem coins have always found a home somewhere and I see no reason that will not continue.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
I've been going after half dime die marriages and die states. I check various numismatic auction sites, coin dealers, and ebay. If I see something on ebay that I don't already have, and if it doesn't look like a parking lot find, or worse, and if the price isn't out of line, I'll get it. Most such coins that I've gotten, I've sent to be slabbed. Maybe a quarter of them come back "Details". I expect and accept that as part of the process. That said, I don't think I've actually purchased a coin that was already in a Details slab. I did purchase quite a few (87) coins from Steve Crain's collection, and had them slabbed as well. A number of those are Details coins. Apparently, Steve had a similar approach to building his variety reference set. And I think many of these Details coins could get that NSB sticker!
Collector of Liberty Seated Half Dimes, including die pairs and die states
John, that is hilarious
But I still wouldn't buy it
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
Coins with problems have a promising future. There are bottom feeders and I plead the fifth for the 291st time.
Not to worry - just start the auction at 99c.
My experience is that “Problem coins” continue to sell well for me. Either graded or raw and surprisingly for decent money, sometimes near Greysheet.
I do believe tho that this conversation deserves a caveat or 2 …, the coins i’m selling are mostly 50 to 500 or so, nothing scarce or rare.
Anyone trying to do a full type set on any kind of real-world budget will eventually have to go Details. Won't name any names here..
Totally disagree with that, although I'm not complete yet it can be done within a budget and without detailed coins
Just look harder for clean coins, they are out there
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
OK we haven't set a size of "budget" here, but please do point me to a straight graded half disme, 1808 $2.50 gold, small eagle quarter, small eagle half, and chain cent within this budget?
As you said, we didn't establish a budget.
The coins you're asking about do exist without problems, some of which I am on the hunt for. In time they will show up, I just hope that when they do I'm in a position to secure them.
Be patient, they will come out of the woodwork
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
I have had a similar approach as well, except I've grabbed a few extreme "details" coins of rare die marriages.
WB-6
Not long ago I saw a very nice details chain cent with what I considered a minor rim bump. Surfaces were far superior to most chains, which are often straight-graded with what I consider questionable porosity and other issues. As with graded coins, buy the coin not the plastic.
Married 21 years. But thanks for playing.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
I collect holed, all denominations. I'm still looking for hundreds of them.
Desirability is a function of the age and rarity of the coin.
A problem coin can be a good deal at the right price. I bought a couple of lightly cleaned raw double eagles about two years ago for melt value when gold spot was a lot lower. I think I did okay.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Agree!
My Lettered Edge 93 wreath cent was acquired unattributed in a Details environmental damage holder. It was one of the best I’d seen, and priced like it had major issues.
I cracked it, applied a bit of Blue Ribbon which removed most of the “environmental damage”, and resubmitted it with the proper attribution. Came back in a straight grade G6 holder. Worth ~2x now.
Every collector has a unique sense of taste.
Some want pristine specimens only. Sealed In slabs, of course, which must also be flawless.
Others prefer to own old coins within their budgets: coins with as much of their original details that they can afford, even though they may be lightly cleaned, or have a scratch or rim bump. Coins that you can crack out of their (“details w/problem”) slabs and play with!
The owner of a top-pop MS Lincoln cent from the mid-20th century, and someone else with a VF details 1795 silver dollar which cost the same amount, are both just buying what they like!
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
Over the years, I've bought and sold lots of damaged 1793 chain and wreath cents, each of them captures the imagination somehow, so if you know what they sell for, they're a safe buy and they sell fast. For example, a fairly common beat up no date chain cent can still attract 50 people on eBay willing to pay $3000 for it.
In that scenario demand would go sideways. Dealers and Investors (priced out) would go to another area or lower grade of that issue (vs buying details coins) buying less expense stuff vs settling for problem coins.
Album filler for me.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
I think there is a lot of potential in detail coins. Having said that I will also admit I tried to break away from my cast in stone rule NO PROBLEM COINS. Every time I came close to bidding actual money I balked. Finally I just quit trying.
When I was 7 I got the "Let's Collect Coins" kit from J.C. Penny. It comes with a small booklet in which Kenneth Bressett states, "Never buy damaged , cleaned or problem coins. They will cause you to have an inferior collection and will rob you of valuable money for good purchases." I now know those words are tattooed on my brain. James
What's all this "harder to sell" malarkey? No they're not, all the auctions have tons of details coins, they all get bids, they all sell just as easily, just at lower prices. Maybe back in the days of real live coin shops, but this canard of "harder to sell" as a reason to not buy in the online auction age is just bogus.
To provide a bit of perspective, I collect foreign coins that circulated in the USA before 1857 - types that is. I own a VF details 1799 8 reales minted in Lima to represent the Lima mint. It is details because it has been chopmarked. Obviously, the chopmarks add to its history and interest. More to the point, if it were a TD it would have been straight-graded. I also own a 1794 8 escudos in an AU details holder. It's a beautiful coin with a small triangle-shaped countermark on the reverse, which has been treated as damage. Again, an interesting coin providing hours of (so far unsuccessful) research. Then consider the Dexter dollar.
I’ve done very well selling problem coins on eBay that I bought 30-40 years ago when I didn’t know any better. Most shows have a lot of collectors filling holes in their albums buying raw coins who don’t care if the coin has a small imperfection. There are a lot of collectors who have very modest budgets.
https://images3-cdn.auctionmobility.com/is3/auctionmobility-static-cluster3/lyrp-1-11DHZ/3-18AS7V/f7b55ac3-d758-48e8-bf23-6e58b2e4c66a?maxwidth=2400&maxheight=2400
This one certainly had a bright future! It sold today at Stack’s for $22,800 all in, despite being in the wrong holder and having 2 mentioned problems - ANACS AU details, cleaned, scratch.
Lot 10436. It photographed very well, anyway!
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
There’s a price tag for every coin and there is a coin for every collector’s budget. Details coin are just one price point along a cost continuum.
For some collectors, even straight graded coins are treated as details coins if it doesn’t have a sticker. That, in my opinion, can result in missing out on nice coins that are perhaps a tad “over graded” or lightly cleaned and can be had at a more acceptable cost.
While I don’t wish to pursue details coins for my collection, I wouldn’t rule it out based on attractiveness.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Not to worry - offers are discounted for them.
I marvel at the prices that problem coins bring these days, especially in “Platinum Night” sales. Time was you had to deep discount these pieces before you had a chance of selling them.
I remember I met an old dealer who had a ton of rare coins in off brand holders. It was stuff like an 1804 quarter, with EF aharpness, that had a coat of artificial toning. He said to me, “l’vd got a fortune here if I could sell these coins in these grades.” Yes, he did, and if he were still around today, he’d make his fortune.
Isn’t this just a “rising tide lifts all boats” kinda situation coupled with supply and demand? Everything’s up and good material is harder and harder to locate. Thats going to put upward pressure across the ranges.
And perhaps, there’s still a dearth of Covid period new collectors who haven’t learned the way, or just don’t care to?
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
My personal belief is that the problem free coins are in strong hands. Only when an event happens that these coins will come to market.
In the interim we are seeing all the other problem coins surface. Some collectors really don't think that a true problem free coin exists because all they see offered are detailed coins even if they are straight graded. The good ones are out there, one just needs to have patience to find the right one.
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
I frankly don’t understand the aversion to details coins. The eye appeal of a less circulated ‘problem’ coin can be far superior to an equally valued but battered straight-graded coin. Maybe you despise this S-215 but I find it beautiful. Lucky me.
Smitten with DBLCs.
I think early US coins - copper in particular - are exceptions to the general rule that most serious collectors only search for problem-free coins. Even high grade stuff has usually seen the brush, and almost everything good has been worked on at least a bit. I've seen a beat up bent Oak Tree sixpence (I think, maybe a smaller coin) straitened and microscopically beautified make it into an MS holder, and a horribly corroded common variety 1794 cent get taken down to raw metal, pushed around, retoned and end up in an XF holder. Two of many stories. For possible interest, those coins didn't CAC. You have to be comfortable with problems of some degree. I've also seen rare and valuable collections of copper where almost every coin had unsolved problems, but each one had a charming story of early commerce in the USA, and each one was lovingly packaged with as much provenance as possible. Although I usually stay away from problem coins, collections like those are still impressive to me, it feels more like old style purist numismatics somehow.
Details, and yet likely still in the condition census:
If they are cheap, I buy a few problem coins in in the NGC/PCGS/ANAC slabs for study purposes.
On occasion, I have been known to pursue a certain die marriage in a series or particular rare VAM.
Got to be picky, but financially, I am well ahead all things considered.
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Details coins sell every day in nearly every auction. Of course I would prefer "problem free" coins but at the right price, I'm a buyer... and a seller. I've made plenty turning coins that others have turned up their noses at... keep 'em coming!
Mark
there's always a future for a details coin, I like 1983 coins too. Even oddballs.
