@SimonW said: @wcc I get that, I never really planned on completing the 4R set, just plan on picking up what I can, when I can, without killing my budget and with being able to resell them without a massive loss, if the situation demanded.
Passing on the 1771 4R was a big oversight. It sold for $411 by the same seller (a German based dealer) on eBay the same day (March 2002) I bought my 1770 XF Bolivia 4R but I didn't know this coinage at the time, bought the Bolivia coin because it was cheaper, and didn't buy both because I didn't want to spend the money that day. I'm still waiting for that coin to show up 22 years later. It was an XF-AU with a similar nice look to my Bolivia coin.
I also thought these coins weren't that hard to buy because I saw another offered for $1750 a little later in 2002 which went unsold. I recall it as a 1756 but it must have been a 1758 because the eBay seller claimed it was ex-Patterson who had two nice ones. That would have been a big outlay for me at the time, but I should have bought it.
I didn't buy my first Peru 4R until 2018 because I couldn't find one, except when I didn't want to buy something else more. Heritage sold a 1754 XF (an OK coin but not real nice for the grade), Noble (Australia) sold a 1757 XF (cleaned and the Yonaka plate coin), and Aureo sold the now 1762 NGC XF-40 but I didn't like that coin enough to buy it. That's all I saw for 16 years after 2002.
I also missed the 1763 offered by Spinks (Yonaka plate coin). I've only bought my 1760 2R through them.
@SimonW said:
I saw that one, considered going for it but I was tapped out at that moment. A really beautiful piece! Looks a little under graded.
Thanks!
I won't say that it's under graded but it is certainly very solid for a VF30 and I think it's fair to say that it is more appealing than my similarly graded 1767.
@SimonW said:
I saw that one, considered going for it but I was tapped out at that moment. A really beautiful piece! Looks a little under graded.
Thanks!
I won't say that it's under graded but it is certainly very solid for a VF30 and I think it's fair to say that it is more appealing than my similarly graded 1767.
*Edit for correction
It’s solidly undergraded, unless there’s something I’m not seeing. I do like having coins that are solid/undergraded though. NGC tends to overgrade these pretty regularly, so it’s a pleasant surprise. I’ve got an XF that looks worse by far. It’s a very nice coin, I’m really happy to own it, but it’s not an XF.
No, wish it was, looks XF but knocked down for some surface irregularities IMHO…I’ve been hoarding my acorns for few other upcoming auctions. Can’t buy them all at once 😜😂.
No, wish it was, looks XF but knocked down for some surface irregularities IMHO…I’ve been hoarding my acorns for few other upcoming auctions. Can’t buy them all at once 😜😂.
So, does it worth buying that 4R with that grade?
If he/she end up selling the coin that was paid $780.00 * 1.5 = $1,170 +/- can be sold at this price range?
No, wish it was, looks XF but knocked down for some surface irregularities IMHO…I’ve been hoarding my acorns for few other upcoming auctions. Can’t buy them all at once 😜😂.
So, does it worth buying that 4R with that grade?
If he/she end up selling the coin that was paid $780.00 * 1.5 = $1,170 +/- can be sold at this price range?
I wouldn't pay $780 for the Mexico 1741 4R, much less 50% more. It's not the label grade. It's that I don't consider it an attractive coin.
No, wish it was, looks XF but knocked down for some surface irregularities IMHO…I’ve been hoarding my acorns for few other upcoming auctions. Can’t buy them all at once 😜😂.
So, does it worth buying that 4R with that grade?
If he/she end up selling the coin that was paid $780.00 * 1.5 = $1,170 +/- can be sold at this price range?
I think it’s worth what was paid, because it’s easily XF details, but it didn’t go cheap. At all. I usually see nice midrange VF Bolivian 4R coins selling in the $400-$800 range. This one is stronger for a 1770 methinks, it’s the easiest date, but with the nice details it’s not crazy high. You’ll notice a number of surface marks and a decent size rim hit. I think that’s why it isn’t in an XF holder.
Any certified, problem free VF30 4R from any mint in a good auction will usually bring $400 minimum, usually north of that. If it’s a tougher date or mint, sometimes multiples…or many multiples in the case of a few (1732, 1733 Mexico, almost any Guatemala, some Peru.) Bolivia pillars always seem to get more attention than I expect, not because they’re truly rare by date, but because they were only produced for 4 years. There’s always a handful of mid-grade to high grade ones that auction every year, there’s just not enough to satisfy collector demand. Peru probably has less demand and very few numbers by date, but with enough dates, they’re available on occasion if you’re just looking for a type coin (which accounts for the majority of the people looking for one.) Guatemala has more demand but more quantity also (Guatemala 4R are probably the second most common pillar denomination behind 8R.) Mexico has, by far, the most availability. Everyone says they’re the rarest denomination…for Mexico that’s true, but across the board the Mexico 4R is downright common compared to the other mints.
@SimonW said: @WCC
I think he was talking about the Bolivia 4R on Heritage, not the Mexico 1741, which is my type coin for Mexico, but I paid MUCH less than that.
I don’t know where the $780 x 1.5 came from, care to elaborate @ELuis ?
I have followed some heritage auctions, and I have been able to find after the end the coins on the buyer website(s) and i see they add a 50% sometimes less to the price they paid as the end value on their website(s).
Also, on the HA many coins have the option to make an offer, and in most of the one they add that 50%+
Bolivia pillars always seem to get more attention than I expect, not because they’re truly rare by date, but because they were only produced for 4 years. There’s always a handful of mid-grade to high grade ones that auction every year, there’s just not enough to satisfy collector demand. Peru probably has less demand and very few numbers by date, but with enough dates, they’re available on occasion if you’re just looking for a type coin (which accounts for the majority of the people looking for one.) Guatemala has more demand but more quantity also (Guatemala 4R are probably the second most common pillar denomination behind 8R.) Mexico has, by far, the most availability. Everyone says they’re the rarest denomination…for Mexico that’s true, but across the board the Mexico 4R is downright common compared to the other mints.
I have seen more "decent" Bolivia pillar 4R than Peru 4R in my observations, certainly in VF or better. Even the 1767 Bolivia which has a reputational scarcity is more common and more available than any of the Peru dates except maybe the 1772.
Mexico 4R is definitely more common than all others combined. Probably mostly due to the mintage difference. The number of better (XF and higher) in the TPG data has increased a lot over the years.
@WCC completely agree on all counts. I just find that Bolivia ones tend to garner a little more attention than the Peru ones, but by date the Peruvian ones are significantly more rare (except the 1772.). People like Bolivia I guess
I see what you’re saying. What I’ve seen, if a coin goes for a reasonable price, it tends to end up on a dealer’s site, but if it doesn’t, that usually means it went to a collector, and it won’t and up being resold anytime soon. There’s just very little meat left on the bone. That being said, for coins that aren’t on the market at just any given time, like this one, you can kinda just ask anything you want. Sometimes people are willing to pay it rather than wait for another one to show up.
Some coins don’t have much of a price history. This one does, but not a robust one.
I see what you’re saying. What I’ve seen, if a coin goes for a reasonable price, it tends to end up on a dealer’s site, but if it doesn’t, that usually means it went to a collector, and it won’t and up being resold anytime soon. There’s just very little meat left on the bone. That being said, for coins that aren’t on the market at just any given time, like this one, you can kinda just ask anything you want. Sometimes people are willing to pay it rather than wait for another one to show up.
Some coins don’t have much of a price history. This one does, but not a robust one.
Now makes sense.
I actually had the same impression that for that price end up for a collector.
Now I have seen a 1770 4R VF35 this one with the three dots and also in the past have seen the 1770 4R with one dot, no idea if this is variety or the one with 3 dots.
No, wish it was, looks XF but knocked down for some surface irregularities IMHO…I’ve been hoarding my acorns for few other upcoming auctions. Can’t buy them all at once 😜😂.
So, does it worth buying that 4R with that grade?
If he/she end up selling the coin that was paid $780.00 * 1.5 = $1,170 +/- can be sold at this price range?
Eluis $780 was the final total price including the premium (or juice, as it is called)
@JohnnyCache said:
Eluis $780 was the final total price including the premium (or juice, as it is called)
Got that.
I am more on this, see a sample of a coin I was looking some time ago of the same coin I have and was checking the value:
Notice that price in the orange box (on other ones i have seen that box in green), that it is very close to the 1.5 or 50% more apart of the final price including the premium as you noted too.
Thanks!
Edit: Maybe I been overlooking this, in many times I have read for coin values "See if the coin was on an action and see the value... Or something like that"
On the same time that I saw that auction on the image I posted, there was another some week or two after, one with a lot of Mexico Second Republic 1 Peso gold, have one and was checking on how much was end up selling a similar of mine, then after the auction end, I saw those 1 Peso being sold at that 50% extra, and maybe since then got the felling that was a rule... I see now.
You guys are lucky who collect Lima, Mexico, Potosi, even Guatemala minor Columnarios.
It is a lonely game focusing on Santiago - only a total of 10 minor conclusively exist: 4 examples of the 4 reales 1760 and 6 examples of the 1/2 real 1760. Waiting for a 4 reales to become available is futile, the likely price will definitely put it out of my range. Even so, it may not happen in my (remaining) lifetime....
@Eddi said:
You guys are lucky who collect Lima, Mexico, Potosi, even Guatemala minor Columnarios.
It is a lonely game focusing on Santiago - only a total of 10 minor conclusively exist: 4 examples of the 4 reales 1760 and 6 examples of the 1/2 real 1760. Waiting for a 4 reales to become available is futile, the likely price will definitely put it out of my range. Even so, it may not happen in my (remaining) lifetime....
I feel ya, I collect them too. So far I’m up to zero. 😜
@Eddi said:
You guys are lucky who collect Lima, Mexico, Potosi, even Guatemala minor Columnarios.
It is a lonely game focusing on Santiago - only a total of 10 minor conclusively exist: 4 examples of the 4 reales 1760 and 6 examples of the 1/2 real 1760. Waiting for a 4 reales to become available is futile, the likely price will definitely put it out of my range. Even so, it may not happen in my (remaining) lifetime....
What do you think the 1760 4R ex Norweb is worth today?
Eluis $780 was the final total price including the premium (or juice, as it is called)
That's a nice example. Concurrently, the Peru coins from the Pat Johnson which sold at the end of 2022 sold for somewhat more. 1757 PCGS VF-30 which I think was accurately graded sold for $1020 and I should have tried to buy it. I ended up buying one of the two 1754 and 1755 AU JM AU details because both are quite nice (1755 especially) despite the non-numerical grades.
@Eddi said:
You guys are lucky who collect Lima, Mexico, Potosi, even Guatemala minor Columnarios.
It is a lonely game focusing on Santiago - only a total of 10 minor conclusively exist: 4 examples of the 4 reales 1760 and 6 examples of the 1/2 real 1760. Waiting for a 4 reales to become available is futile, the likely price will definitely put it out of my range. Even so, it may not happen in my (remaining) lifetime....
What do you think the 1760 4R ex Norweb is worth today?
I'm guessing $150-$200K based upon my assumption that it's around an AU-55 at auction. Potentially noticeably more in a private sale.
Norweb 1732 MS-64+ sold for $264K a few years ago. I don't have access to the Ortiz sale price, as the catalog I bought didn't come with prices realized. Pre-sale estimate was noticeably higher for the Chile coin but that was when (1991) absolute rarity was preferred over quality.
Does anyone know anything about the second purportedly known coin? I've never seen anything.
@Eddi said:
You guys are lucky who collect Lima, Mexico, Potosi, even Guatemala minor Columnarios.
It is a lonely game focusing on Santiago - only a total of 10 minor conclusively exist: 4 examples of the 4 reales 1760 and 6 examples of the 1/2 real 1760. Waiting for a 4 reales to become available is futile, the likely price will definitely put it out of my range. Even so, it may not happen in my (remaining) lifetime....
What do you think the 1760 4R ex Norweb is worth today?
The Norweb Santiago 4R dated 1760 will auction in 2027 at a hammer of $168,800.00 including juice at the illustrious coin auctioneers Stacks-Bowers.
@Eddi said:
You guys are lucky who collect Lima, Mexico, Potosi, even Guatemala minor Columnarios.
It is a lonely game focusing on Santiago - only a total of 10 minor conclusively exist: 4 examples of the 4 reales 1760 and 6 examples of the 1/2 real 1760. Waiting for a 4 reales to become available is futile, the likely price will definitely put it out of my range. Even so, it may not happen in my (remaining) lifetime....
What do you think the 1760 4R ex Norweb is worth today?
The Norweb Santiago 4R dated 1760 will auction in 2027 at a hammer of $168,800.00 including juice at the illustrious coin auctioneers Stacks-Bowers.
@Eddi said:
You guys are lucky who collect Lima, Mexico, Potosi, even Guatemala minor Columnarios.
It is a lonely game focusing on Santiago - only a total of 10 minor conclusively exist: 4 examples of the 4 reales 1760 and 6 examples of the 1/2 real 1760. Waiting for a 4 reales to become available is futile, the likely price will definitely put it out of my range. Even so, it may not happen in my (remaining) lifetime....
What do you think the 1760 4R ex Norweb is worth today?
The Norweb Santiago 4R dated 1760 will auction in 2027 at a hammer of $168,800.00 including juice at the illustrious coin auctioneers Stacks-Bowers.
@Boosibri , I would see the lowest graded Santiago 4 Reales selling today for no less than $45 K.
The EF example (Norweb?) for $70K - $110K.
The Norweb example sold in 1985 for $43K.
"Freeman Craig, a dealer from Sausalito, Calif., who was one of the major buyers, termed the latest auction ''the Farouk Sale of South American numismatics.'' He suggested that the outcome will affect the market for years, just as the Farouk Sale did in the 1950's.
Mr. Craig was the winning bidder on many of the auction's top items including the one that brought the single highest price: a silver 4-reales piece from Chile dated 1760 which was gaveled down for $39,000. With the buyer's fee, it cost $42,900. That is double the estimate of $20,000 to $25,000. The catalogue graded the coin ''about extremely fine'' and described it as ''a choice example of this excessively rare coin.''
@Boosibri said:
I venture that it will go for much less. Mexican mint state 4R vs Chilean AU 4R has a much deeper market.
I’d guess $60-75k.
I recall Bonham's sold it for $54K back in 2000 or 2001.
If it did sell in the current market for the range you cited, it would be a huge relative bargain at current
I think collecting has changed a bit since then with > @WCC said:
@Boosibri said:
I venture that it will go for much less. Mexican mint state 4R vs Chilean AU 4R has a much deeper market.
I’d guess $60-75k.
I recall Bonham's sold it for $54K back in 2000 or 2001.
If it did sell in the current market for the range you cited, it would be a huge relative bargain at current market levels.
But what it the current market level for an EF/AU Chilean 4R? Who knows? I agree that it is a bargain vs other coins at that price but my guess is that is what the market is for it,
If you compare the market performance for similar rare but mid grade pieces I think you will find that the market has not moved up as fast for these pieces as it has for top condition coins and the largest denominations.
But what it the current market level for an EF/AU Chilean 4R? Who knows? I agree that it is a bargain vs other coins at that price but my guess is that is what the market is for it,
If you compare the market performance for similar rare but mid grade pieces I think you will find that the market has not moved up as fast for these pieces as it has for top condition coins and the largest denominations.
I'll admit I do not know. The 1732 Mexico 4R is cheaper than the 1732 8R (or seems to be) which supports your point. The 8R is a lot more common.
CRO sold the 1765 Peru MS-62 4R you previously owned for $12K. Numerous Mexico 4R MS have sold for more and all are more common or certainly not scarcer in any comparable quality. Recent sales of Mexico AU 4R show a similar pattern.
What's the price range for the better Chile 8R now? I have no idea.
But what it the current market level for an EF/AU Chilean 4R? Who knows? I agree that it is a bargain vs other coins at that price but my guess is that is what the market is for it,
If you compare the market performance for similar rare but mid grade pieces I think you will find that the market has not moved up as fast for these pieces as it has for top condition coins and the largest denominations.
I'll admit I do not know. The 1732 Mexico 4R is cheaper than the 1732 8R (or seems to be) which supports your point. The 8R is a lot more common.
CRO sold the 1765 Peru MS-62 4R you previously owned for $12K. Numerous Mexico 4R MS have sold for more and all are more common or certainly not scarcer in any comparable quality. Recent sales of Mexico AU 4R show a similar pattern.
What's the price range for the better Chile 8R now? I have no idea.
So yes, I see your point.
I spoke to the only person that I know who has seen the coin in hand and he said it’s about an AU55.
It is good that there are many series still that are affordable to collect keeps things fun. Most collectors cannot afford top graded coins so I am glad there are alternatives so people like myself can still enjoy a hobby.
If its all about making money it is not much of a hobby more like business. Nothing wrong with turning a profit I get that but usually people have hobbies to simply enjoy no matter the financial outcome. If you get to make a profit with your hobbies then count yourself lucky.
It is nice to be able to buy coins that do not cost an arm & leg each time you add a new one to your collection. Collecting lower denominations (non 8 reales) allows us small time collectors to do just that in many cases. We get to own some rare coins for a fraction of the cost of say 8 reales. It is great and I hope it stays that way!!!
Personally I do not mind if none of my coins go up in value over time. I am not into it for that reason. But like I said I understand those that are in it for the hobby and the possible financial return.
@WCC said:
I'll admit I do not know. The 1732 Mexico 4R is cheaper than the 1732 8R (or seems to be) which supports your point. The 8R is a lot more common.
No idea as to how an 8R 1732 can do or have done, i found this recent sale of a 1732 4R Mo.
Not bad for a day
@WCC said:
I'll admit I do not know. The 1732 Mexico 4R is cheaper than the 1732 8R (or seems to be) which supports your point. The 8R is a lot more common.
No idea as to how an 8R 1732 can do or have done, i found this recent sale of a 1732 4R Mo.
Not bad for a day
The 1732 8R in 65* would be at least $500k if auctioned.
I am pretty sure the Mexico 1732 milled 1/2 reales up to 2 reales in mint state would also bring in huge sums of money but they simply do not exist in those grades (not even close for the very few that are numerically graded). At least not what from what I see on the NGC & PCGS population reports.
Maybe there are some raw high grades out there somewhere?
@PillarDollarCollector said:
1732 Milled Mexico coinage NGC population since no 1/2 to 2 reales have been graded by PCGS:
Highest graded:
1/2 real = Authentic XF Details
1 real = 2 in VF numerical
2 reales = 1 in VF numerical
A quick search brings this 2R, from the year 2016, wonder at this coindition will cost today...:
Edit to add: That same year a 1/2R holed sold for $4,935.00
Also same year a 1R $5,875.00 XF Details (Saltwater Damage) & another one also damaged at $1,880
I think the saltwater 1732 milled Mexico 1 real sold ''pretty high'' (the highest price paid for that coin in that grade) it seems that for some the saltwater damage is not the same as other types of damage. I would agree it has a cool factor that it was in the ocean most likely in a ship wreckage.
As for the 2 reales I have yet to see one for sale since I started collecting Latin American coinage back in 2019-20.
@WCC said:
The Gilboy plate coin 1732 1R looks at least AU, though don't know if would receive a numerical grade.
If it did it would be worth a lot of money (for most collectors and myself included) nothing would come close grade wise for that denomination. I am just guessing 25 000$ or more. I may be way off I guess we may never find out. '
Comments
Passing on the 1771 4R was a big oversight. It sold for $411 by the same seller (a German based dealer) on eBay the same day (March 2002) I bought my 1770 XF Bolivia 4R but I didn't know this coinage at the time, bought the Bolivia coin because it was cheaper, and didn't buy both because I didn't want to spend the money that day. I'm still waiting for that coin to show up 22 years later. It was an XF-AU with a similar nice look to my Bolivia coin.
I also thought these coins weren't that hard to buy because I saw another offered for $1750 a little later in 2002 which went unsold. I recall it as a 1756 but it must have been a 1758 because the eBay seller claimed it was ex-Patterson who had two nice ones. That would have been a big outlay for me at the time, but I should have bought it.
I didn't buy my first Peru 4R until 2018 because I couldn't find one, except when I didn't want to buy something else more. Heritage sold a 1754 XF (an OK coin but not real nice for the grade), Noble (Australia) sold a 1757 XF (cleaned and the Yonaka plate coin), and Aureo sold the now 1762 NGC XF-40 but I didn't like that coin enough to buy it. That's all I saw for 16 years after 2002.
I also missed the 1763 offered by Spinks (Yonaka plate coin). I've only bought my 1760 2R through them.
The rest of the coins I listed you have seen.
I blame @SimonW for his bad influence on me resulting in this purchase
Well, at least that's what I told my wife.
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
Spanish Colonial Pillar Set
@JohnnyCache you’re welcome? 😂
I saw that one, considered going for it but I was tapped out at that moment. A really beautiful piece! Looks a little under graded.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Thanks!
I won't say that it's under graded but it is certainly very solid for a VF30 and I think it's fair to say that it is more appealing than my similarly graded 1767.
*Edit for correction
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
Spanish Colonial Pillar Set
It’s solidly undergraded, unless there’s something I’m not seeing. I do like having coins that are solid/undergraded though. NGC tends to overgrade these pretty regularly, so it’s a pleasant surprise. I’ve got an XF that looks worse by far. It’s a very nice coin, I’m really happy to own it, but it’s not an XF.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
By the way, was it you who grabbed the Bolivia Charles III 4 Reales 1770 PTS-JR in NGC VF35 (large JR) last night off Heritage?
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
Spanish Colonial Pillar Set
No, wish it was, looks XF but knocked down for some surface irregularities IMHO…I’ve been hoarding my acorns for few other upcoming auctions. Can’t buy them all at once 😜😂.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
So, does it worth buying that 4R with that grade?
If he/she end up selling the coin that was paid $780.00 * 1.5 = $1,170 +/- can be sold at this price range?
I wouldn't pay $780 for the Mexico 1741 4R, much less 50% more. It's not the label grade. It's that I don't consider it an attractive coin.
I think it’s worth what was paid, because it’s easily XF details, but it didn’t go cheap. At all. I usually see nice midrange VF Bolivian 4R coins selling in the $400-$800 range. This one is stronger for a 1770 methinks, it’s the easiest date, but with the nice details it’s not crazy high. You’ll notice a number of surface marks and a decent size rim hit. I think that’s why it isn’t in an XF holder.
Any certified, problem free VF30 4R from any mint in a good auction will usually bring $400 minimum, usually north of that. If it’s a tougher date or mint, sometimes multiples…or many multiples in the case of a few (1732, 1733 Mexico, almost any Guatemala, some Peru.) Bolivia pillars always seem to get more attention than I expect, not because they’re truly rare by date, but because they were only produced for 4 years. There’s always a handful of mid-grade to high grade ones that auction every year, there’s just not enough to satisfy collector demand. Peru probably has less demand and very few numbers by date, but with enough dates, they’re available on occasion if you’re just looking for a type coin (which accounts for the majority of the people looking for one.) Guatemala has more demand but more quantity also (Guatemala 4R are probably the second most common pillar denomination behind 8R.) Mexico has, by far, the most availability. Everyone says they’re the rarest denomination…for Mexico that’s true, but across the board the Mexico 4R is downright common compared to the other mints.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
@WCC
I think he was talking about the Bolivia 4R on Heritage, not the Mexico 1741, which is my type coin for Mexico, but I paid MUCH less than that.
I don’t know where the $780 x 1.5 came from, care to elaborate @ELuis ?
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
I have followed some heritage auctions, and I have been able to find after the end the coins on the buyer website(s) and i see they add a 50% sometimes less to the price they paid as the end value on their website(s).
Also, on the HA many coins have the option to make an offer, and in most of the one they add that 50%+
Bolivia pillars always seem to get more attention than I expect, not because they’re truly rare by date, but because they were only produced for 4 years. There’s always a handful of mid-grade to high grade ones that auction every year, there’s just not enough to satisfy collector demand. Peru probably has less demand and very few numbers by date, but with enough dates, they’re available on occasion if you’re just looking for a type coin (which accounts for the majority of the people looking for one.) Guatemala has more demand but more quantity also (Guatemala 4R are probably the second most common pillar denomination behind 8R.) Mexico has, by far, the most availability. Everyone says they’re the rarest denomination…for Mexico that’s true, but across the board the Mexico 4R is downright common compared to the other mints.
I have seen more "decent" Bolivia pillar 4R than Peru 4R in my observations, certainly in VF or better. Even the 1767 Bolivia which has a reputational scarcity is more common and more available than any of the Peru dates except maybe the 1772.
Mexico 4R is definitely more common than all others combined. Probably mostly due to the mintage difference. The number of better (XF and higher) in the TPG data has increased a lot over the years.
@WCC completely agree on all counts. I just find that Bolivia ones tend to garner a little more attention than the Peru ones, but by date the Peruvian ones are significantly more rare (except the 1772.). People like Bolivia I guess
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
@ELuis
I see what you’re saying. What I’ve seen, if a coin goes for a reasonable price, it tends to end up on a dealer’s site, but if it doesn’t, that usually means it went to a collector, and it won’t and up being resold anytime soon. There’s just very little meat left on the bone. That being said, for coins that aren’t on the market at just any given time, like this one, you can kinda just ask anything you want. Sometimes people are willing to pay it rather than wait for another one to show up.
Some coins don’t have much of a price history. This one does, but not a robust one.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Now makes sense.
I actually had the same impression that for that price end up for a collector.
Got it now and Thanks!
Now I have seen a 1770 4R VF35 this one with the three dots and also in the past have seen the 1770 4R with one dot, no idea if this is variety or the one with 3 dots.
Eluis $780 was the final total price including the premium (or juice, as it is called)
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
Spanish Colonial Pillar Set
Got that.
I am more on this, see a sample of a coin I was looking some time ago of the same coin I have and was checking the value:
Notice that price in the orange box (on other ones i have seen that box in green), that it is very close to the 1.5 or 50% more apart of the final price including the premium as you noted too.
Thanks!
Edit: Maybe I been overlooking this, in many times I have read for coin values "See if the coin was on an action and see the value... Or something like that"
On the same time that I saw that auction on the image I posted, there was another some week or two after, one with a lot of Mexico Second Republic 1 Peso gold, have one and was checking on how much was end up selling a similar of mine, then after the auction end, I saw those 1 Peso being sold at that 50% extra, and maybe since then got the felling that was a rule... I see now.
You guys are lucky who collect Lima, Mexico, Potosi, even Guatemala minor Columnarios.
It is a lonely game focusing on Santiago - only a total of 10 minor conclusively exist: 4 examples of the 4 reales 1760 and 6 examples of the 1/2 real 1760. Waiting for a 4 reales to become available is futile, the likely price will definitely put it out of my range. Even so, it may not happen in my (remaining) lifetime....
I feel ya, I collect them too. So far I’m up to zero. 😜
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What do you think the 1760 4R ex Norweb is worth today?
Latin American Collection
That's a nice example. Concurrently, the Peru coins from the Pat Johnson which sold at the end of 2022 sold for somewhat more. 1757 PCGS VF-30 which I think was accurately graded sold for $1020 and I should have tried to buy it. I ended up buying one of the two 1754 and 1755 AU JM AU details because both are quite nice (1755 especially) despite the non-numerical grades.
I'm guessing $150-$200K based upon my assumption that it's around an AU-55 at auction. Potentially noticeably more in a private sale.
Norweb 1732 MS-64+ sold for $264K a few years ago. I don't have access to the Ortiz sale price, as the catalog I bought didn't come with prices realized. Pre-sale estimate was noticeably higher for the Chile coin but that was when (1991) absolute rarity was preferred over quality.
Does anyone know anything about the second purportedly known coin? I've never seen anything.
The Norweb Santiago 4R dated 1760 will auction in 2027 at a hammer of $168,800.00 including juice at the illustrious coin auctioneers Stacks-Bowers.
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(Nevermind, I defer to WCC 😂)
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I venture that it will go for much less. Mexican mint state 4R vs Chilean AU 4R has a much deeper market.
I’d guess $60-75k.
Latin American Collection
I recall Bonham's sold it for $54K back in 2000 or 2001.
If it did sell in the current market for the range you cited, it would be a huge relative bargain at current market levels.
Do you have an image that can post here or a url-link to have a look at this coin?
Thank you.
What month (so I can be ready)?
FUN, January
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@Boosibri , I would see the lowest graded Santiago 4 Reales selling today for no less than $45 K.
The EF example (Norweb?) for $70K - $110K.
The Norweb example sold in 1985 for $43K.
"Freeman Craig, a dealer from Sausalito, Calif., who was one of the major buyers, termed the latest auction ''the Farouk Sale of South American numismatics.'' He suggested that the outcome will affect the market for years, just as the Farouk Sale did in the 1950's.
Mr. Craig was the winning bidder on many of the auction's top items including the one that brought the single highest price: a silver 4-reales piece from Chile dated 1760 which was gaveled down for $39,000. With the buyer's fee, it cost $42,900. That is double the estimate of $20,000 to $25,000. The catalogue graded the coin ''about extremely fine'' and described it as ''a choice example of this excessively rare coin.''
I think collecting has changed a bit since then with > @WCC said:
But what it the current market level for an EF/AU Chilean 4R? Who knows? I agree that it is a bargain vs other coins at that price but my guess is that is what the market is for it,
If you compare the market performance for similar rare but mid grade pieces I think you will find that the market has not moved up as fast for these pieces as it has for top condition coins and the largest denominations.
Latin American Collection
I'll admit I do not know. The 1732 Mexico 4R is cheaper than the 1732 8R (or seems to be) which supports your point. The 8R is a lot more common.
CRO sold the 1765 Peru MS-62 4R you previously owned for $12K. Numerous Mexico 4R MS have sold for more and all are more common or certainly not scarcer in any comparable quality. Recent sales of Mexico AU 4R show a similar pattern.
What's the price range for the better Chile 8R now? I have no idea.
So yes, I see your point.
I spoke to the only person that I know who has seen the coin in hand and he said it’s about an AU55.
Latin American Collection
It is good that there are many series still that are affordable to collect keeps things fun. Most collectors cannot afford top graded coins so I am glad there are alternatives so people like myself can still enjoy a hobby.
If its all about making money it is not much of a hobby more like business. Nothing wrong with turning a profit I get that but usually people have hobbies to simply enjoy no matter the financial outcome. If you get to make a profit with your hobbies then count yourself lucky.
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It is nice to be able to buy coins that do not cost an arm & leg each time you add a new one to your collection. Collecting lower denominations (non 8 reales) allows us small time collectors to do just that in many cases. We get to own some rare coins for a fraction of the cost of say 8 reales. It is great and I hope it stays that way!!!
Personally I do not mind if none of my coins go up in value over time. I am not into it for that reason. But like I said I understand those that are in it for the hobby and the possible financial return.
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I daresay the majority of coin collectors never pay more than face value.
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No idea as to how an 8R 1732 can do or have done, i found this recent sale of a 1732 4R Mo.
Not bad for a day
So, seems that this is the only one avail in the net:
Latin American Collection
The 1732 8R in 65* would be at least $500k if auctioned.
Latin American Collection
WOW
I am pretty sure the Mexico 1732 milled 1/2 reales up to 2 reales in mint state would also bring in huge sums of money but they simply do not exist in those grades (not even close for the very few that are numerically graded). At least not what from what I see on the NGC & PCGS population reports.
Maybe there are some raw high grades out there somewhere?
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1732 Milled Mexico coinage NGC population since no 1/2 to 2 reales have been graded by PCGS:
Highest graded:
1/2 real = Authentic XF Details
1 real = 2 in VF numerical
2 reales = 1 in VF numerical
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A quick search brings this 2R, from the year 2016, wonder at this coindition will cost today...:
Edit to add: That same year a 1/2R holed sold for $4,935.00
Also same year a 1R $5,875.00 XF Details (Saltwater Damage) & another one also damaged at $1,880
Latin American Collection
I think the saltwater 1732 milled Mexico 1 real sold ''pretty high'' (the highest price paid for that coin in that grade) it seems that for some the saltwater damage is not the same as other types of damage. I would agree it has a cool factor that it was in the ocean most likely in a ship wreckage.
As for the 2 reales I have yet to see one for sale since I started collecting Latin American coinage back in 2019-20.
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The Gilboy plate coin 1732 1R looks at least AU, though don't know if would receive a numerical grade.
If it did it would be worth a lot of money (for most collectors and myself included) nothing would come close grade wise for that denomination. I am just guessing 25 000$ or more. I may be way off I guess we may never find out. '
Even AU details would still be a costly coin.
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