Blast White vs. Toned silver coins - Educate me
MWallace
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How long can a silver coin remain blast white? In other words, has a silver coin that's 75-100+ years old, and blast white, it has been dipped. Correct?
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Not always.
A forum member, IWOG had examples within his collection that remained blast white throughout the decades. (LucyBop would disagree though.)
peacockcoins
Off subject, but what happened to @LucyBop?
Braddock I just bought this 1930 SLQ which is currently posted in another thread. Coin is so bright and lustrous it is incredible. How can I tell if it’s from an original roll or dipped. Image below.
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97 years, 7 months and 13 days.
That's how long blast white can last. After that, all bets are off.
Seriously though, it all depends, and not the kind you buy at the drug store.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
With proper storage it can remain untoned for far longer than anyone here will live. Problem is that few coins are stored properly and many are manipulated to meet the current market demand, blast in the past toned now.
My Collection of Old Holders
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Yes but do you know when this coin was slabbed? If so, how do we know it wasn't dipped a month before it was slabbed.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
In my opinion, that 1930 Standing Liberty Quarter was never dipped. By this time dealers were setting aside rolls of the current coins for future sale. Given proper storage, out of the light and in inert devices, you can have a bright white natural coin from this era. Most of them will show a little toning, but coins like this are very possible.
The same is true for 19th century Morgan Dollars that were in the middle of mint bags for nearly a century, you will find naturally bright white coins. If you have a 19th century dime, quarter or half dollar that looks like this, odds are, it’s been dipped. There are exceptions for everything, but the older the coin (Morgan Dollar excluded), the less likely it is.
You don't need to.
PCGS has done the work for you.
(The TrueView tells me loud and clear your quarter is undipped and a masterpeice of originality.)
peacockcoins
How can you tell from the trueview or are you just jesting
Here’s just one example:
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
My personal rule is that if it’s pre-1900, blast white, and not a Morgan it’s dipped. I don’t believe any other type of coin from the 19th century was stored like the Morgan’s were.
Type collector, mainly into Seated. -formerly Ownerofawheatiehorde. Good BST transactions with: mirabela, OKCC, MICHAELDIXON, Gerard
No joking around on my part.
There is a ever so slight yellowish tint on original silver coins that once dipped off will not- as per my experience- return. This Standing Liberty offers this attribute.
I know I am not quite wording it correctly.
Once you've seen hundreds if not thousands of silver from the 30s and 40s and 50s you pick up a sixth sense on what to look for and the difference between complete originality and market acceptable dipping.
It has served me well over the years and who knows? Perhaps I am wrong and some dipped coins escape my detection thus negating my conclusions.
peacockcoins
My understanding from @Walkerlover is that the True View falsely represents that ever so slight yellowish tint, but in hand it actually looks like the following two slab photos, taken previously to being reslabbed to get the TrueView. In his thread, he says, “I received the coin today and the luster is incredible and untoned…”. “I have never seen a silver coin with this kind of luster from 1930 nearly 100 year old coin. This is before roll collecting became popular after 1933. Beats out all my 1940-45 blazers.”.
DLRC sold this coin 3-1/2 years before @Walkerlover bought it from GC just a couple of weeks ago. At that time DLRC described it as untoned on their Degree of Toning Scale.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
As for your statement about the fierce bidding for these lustrous white coins all I see mostly is the INCREDIBLE price toned coins that are attractive bring at GC auctions sometimes 3-10 times the prices of their white counterparts. What I don’t see are many coins that have a combination of super luster with very interesting attractive toning
I agree that the coins that go for 3 - 10 times their lustrous white counterparts have rainbow and other similar colored toning, and beat out the lustrous white coins. But those rainbow and similarly colored coins are few and far between compared to “normal” toned “original” coins.
My point is that even though the majority of collectors avoid highly lustrous bright untoned coins, especially in high grades, since they are not “Original”, they typically still receive severe bidding competition, and rarely go for bargain prices!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Agree on the rarity of the colorful toned strong sellers. They are beautiful but few and far between which is why they sell for a premium compared to more commonly available coins.
I thought the point of dipping is that the majority of collectors wanted highly lustrous bright untoned coins, in high grades. Is this no longer in demand?
Most people dip coins to enhance the eye-appeal and hence the value of their coin. If the toning is attractive, most collectors will leave the coin alone. If the toning is blotchy and ugly, many collectors will dip their coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I agree with @PerryHall as to why some coins get dipped!
In regards to @Zoins’ last comment, I believe that for the past couple of decades or so, the actual majority of knowledgeable collectors prefer undipped coins, since that will show “originality”. While I consider myself a knowledgeable collector, as noted in my reply above in this thread, my preference for eye appeal is different from others, and I’m not alone. While we’re a large (but mainly silent) group, I do not believe we’re a majority.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I have undipped raw silver coins that I have owned for over 45 years and they are still blast white. It all depends on how they were stored. I know they were never dipped before because they came from original bank rolls that I got from the bank.
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I'm also a member of the Ricko ( R.I.P. ) silent majority. For the most part, I like my coins to look like they just came from the mint. Although I will say I have been swayed by a couple unnamed forum members in the last few years. As long as it is attractive toning and not dark and blotchy. For those that can afford the rainbow toning, more power to you. I collect what I like, and can afford.
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I’m not Braddick, but here’s my answer…In many instances, there’s no way to know for certain whether a 75-100+ year-old, “blast white” coin is original or has been dipped.
Finding them in rolls, however, can be one clue that they haven’t been dipped. During my numismatic career (which began in 1979), in addition to rolls of Walking Liberty Half Dollars, Mercury Dimes, Morgan and Peace dollars, I’ve seen a couple of rolls of Seated Liberty Dimes from the mid-1880’s, several rolls of 1883 No Cents Liberty Nickels, a few rolls of 1916-D Barber Quarters, multiple rolls of 1913 Type 1 Buffalo Nickels and almost certainly a number of others that don’t come to mind right now.
And here’s a big clue to keep in mind - look to see if there are any light, whitish splotches/streaks. Often, when a coin has been dipped, the aforementioned splotches/streaks are present, as remnants of toning that was previously present. Many highly lustrous, “blast-white” coins exhibit such clues.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
case in point ... I did not rehab this piece but obviously someone had ... and I prefer it now & purchased the piece! Not sure about enhancing the value but I clearly like the look now
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Here's a yellow 1930 SLQ to compare with the blast white version:
It glows in hand:
https://player.vimeo.com/video/718074070
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
There was a similar thread on copper within the last couple of weeks. Silver is extremely subject to its surrounding conditions and possibly more so than copper, and certainly gold. In the thread on copper, I referenced the atomic nature of the metal and compared it to aluminum which readily forms a thin, invisible layer of aluminum oxide that protects the remainder of the visible metal. Silver easily bonds with plenty of other elements which helps drive the tarnish, the toning, the coloring, and anything else the late RickO does not like. Unlike aluminum, silver's tarnish is visible because it gets deeper into the surface of the metal. Dipping or other process removes this layer, partly damaging the coin, and freshly exposes a more interior set of silver atoms to the surrounding atmosphere.
Were a coin suspended in a vacuum, it would never tone as it would have nothing to tone with.
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This is an interesting topic to me. FWIW, I like both originally toned, and white coins but the over-riding factor for me, is LUSTER quality. A very light, well done dip can generally not impair luster too much, and CAC will see fit to accept it, but it's a fine line between well done, and burnt. Here are some examples from my Barber collection that are undipped, and show off the original surfaces/luster quality that are hard to achieve with a dipped coin.
My personal experience.....
I have rolls of 1951, 1952 and 1954 quarters, Roosevelt dimes from the 1940s and a roll of 1946-D Walkers still as blast white (except for the roll end pieces) as the day they were minted, also several foil wrapped rolls of Canada dollars from the late 50s through 1967 also bright as the day they were minted. Don't have any rolls older than that so can't vouch for those.
Millions of Morgan dollars stored in canvas bags in Treasury vaults are still blast white also.
it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide
All my silly jokes aside, understanding virgin frost is very difficult from images, although I think @Eldorado9 's coins above do a fantastic job (courtesy of some awesome images by @FlyingAl )
Suggesting we can see that with a TrueView is stretching the bounds of reality a bit in 99% of the cases I have seen, including the SLQ discussed here. The focus on TV's is usually less than perfect, and most do not correctly capture the color, almost always leaning to a golden-yellow cast recently.
Toned or untoned, the best trained eyes will catch it in hand, but unless the image has OUTSTANDING focus and near PERFECT lighting, anyone saying they know "for sure" from an image is whistling in the wind. My 2c there.
In 1991 or 1992 I witnessed some 1930's dated Mercury Dime rolls opened. The coins in the middle of the roll were blast, but not blast like after a dip. There was a light iridescence to their shimmer. Hard to quantify in words. I also witnessed some Barber Dime rolls about that same time. Similar, but they had a slightly grey-green-gold sheen in the frost. Intriguing to study closely under good light.
I think the difference was the Barbers had been a little more exposed to the environment prior to rolling, where the Mercuries had not. Speculation on my part, but that's what it seemed like.
Also, we're talking even a mild chemical based dip, not necessarily acetone which I am not sure can be detected if done right.
@winesteven 's Gettysburg has been dipped, for sure. It has all the telltale signs IMO.
@Walkerlover 's SLQ might be un-dipped. Maybe. Inconclusive from the images, but certainly it is possible based on all the images presented. The best eyes could probably tell with some certainty in-hand.
@Eldorado9 's two Barber Halves have not been dipped, IMO. But they are no longer quite blast either, but the exhibit what looks like virgin frost.
All my 2c ... YMMV
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Mark, this is generally good advice. However, I was the owner of a roll of 1955-S dimes that was OBW and I opened them up. The two end coins had some blotchy toning, but as expected the inside coins were a lovely white that just blazed. Almost all of them had some of that "whitish splotches or streaks" despite being totally original. I will have to take some new pics of a few of the coins tonight and update them here.
@pursuitofliberty, thanks for the compliment! After examining Eldo's coins in hand, I can say that the two posted are, in my opinion, undipped. They have "the look".
Here are two coins that I had the honor of imaging. One of them looks to be either very lightly dipped or original (I'd wager original based on in hand looks) and the other seems to be dipped more heavily. The differences are subtle, and both are attractive and CAC'd coins that are lovely. However, to the astute collector the difference can be seen.
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Coin Photographer.
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I agree with FlyingAl and MFeld. First I set common lower unc grade Morgan dollars out to watch them tone. Sometimes I will notice that initially they will start with a 'white coating' on some of the surface before a light gold/tan color starts to appear. I think of it as the initiation of toning but I am just making that up (not official). However, as MFeld noted, when a toned coin is dipped there can be a very similar 'white coating' remaining on the coin. This can be due to not dipping much and leaving the 'white coating' or sometimes it appears as if it is more permanent and to remove it would strip the coin.
There are other circumstances where the 'white coating' will develop. One example is a dollar (or coin) in a slab. I had a couple of dollars that I had to send in for conservation where the 'white coating' developed over time (owned some of these for a dozen years or so). They were stored the same as the others (in an intercept box of 20). I assumed it was something on the surface at the time of slabbing. It can be difficult to tell the difference in these 'white coatings' but sometimes you can.
As far as being able to see a dipped coin or not. I tested this years ago (did thread on over-dipped coin). I started with what appeared to be fresh or undipped Morgan dollars from a partial roll (this was many years ago). I would flash dip one of them over and over. I could not tell the difference in the coin until after several flash dips and this was looking at the coin side by side with other undipped coins. Wish I had documented it but not. The final results are in the noted thread where I dipped it to the extreme.
However, I will note that I had what I thought to be 'fresh' Morgans to start with. Going back a few more year I recall one local coin shop where the owner would dip the silver coins (unless maybe nicely toned) before putting them in the 2x2 to sell. It was just kind of what was done a lot then. So when one goes to dip a coin (or ask if a coin has been dipped) it could have been dipped several times already in the years past.
FlyingAl, I see what you are noting on the two dollars. One thing to keep in mind, and perhaps you do, is that the original luster on Morgan dollars can vary and sometimes a lot from one year or mint to another (and this not considering PL's which is a different game). Some Morgans can be fairly dull to begin with. Of course many are blazers but that look can still vary. Here are my two old (now gone) 1886 P and 1898 O from the set. They have a different luster to them. The 98 more satin. The snap-o'matic I think adjusted the 86 because it was/is a bright coin.
Disclaimer (again) I am not a photographer, not even an amateur one, just my now 20+ year old snap-o'matic.
These picture are about 7 years old as I recall. But the same lighting (filament bulbs here) and approximate position is used for comparison.
Interesting that FlyingAl photos have the 86 more silvery than the 98 O. Mine came out similar.
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Thanks Bill for sharing your insight. Do you think End of issue coins like the 1930 SLQ would be more likely to have been saved in rolls and therefore have produced more coins undipped with untampered surfaces?
I don't know if my advice applies because the coins I am familiar with are from the 19th rather than the 20th century. I don't think most 20th century coins have ever reached terminal status. (Total black).
Many years ago there was a Seated Coin board I lurked on. Several times the experts on there would have someone post a bunch of coins the poster swore were absolute original coins.
They would tell them to take a strong magnifier, (20X works best) and look for tiny black flecks in the recesses of areas like the insets of stars or any deep point the coin featured.
I never saw a single poster pass that test. Some got so angry they quit collecting Seated coins.
In my own experience I have seen exactly 2 coins that (MIGHT) be original but I wouldn't swear to it. As long as it is attractive to the naked eye why worry? James