What would you grade this 1889S Morgan Dollar

Zach98 · July 18, 2023 8:59PM

I recently got this 1889S Morgan Dollar from a coworker, along with several other more common date Morgan and Peace Dollars. I’m not very knowledgeable about Morgan’s. What would you grade this one as. Is it worth it to get it Slabbed? How common is this date?

124Spider · July 18, 2023 9:32PM

If genuine, I'd guess 35-40. But it has a lot of the look of Chinese fakes.

It's a fairly common date; I would not get it graded; YMMV.

Mark

dcarr · July 19, 2023 1:47AM

Date position and mint mark position (and tilt) match 1889-S VAM-2.
But that is not a guarantee of authenticity.

It seems strangely lacking luster for a VF-EF details coin.
But that is not proof that it is fake.

What is the weight ?
Does it stick to a magnet ?

coastaljerseyguy · July 19, 2023 3:55AM

If authentic, VF details. Looks overdipped from photos, agree luster looks off for a VF35 coin. Not worth slabbing but would fit OK in a circulated album collection.

logger7 · July 19, 2023 4:20AM

Scrubbed/cleaned vf. No numismatic premium to speak of.

MFeld · July 19, 2023 4:30AM

The coin looks VF details, cleaned.

Manifest_Destiny · July 19, 2023 4:34AM

Agree, VF details, cleaned.

lilolme · July 19, 2023 4:50AM

I got a similar question in my head of 'if authentic' when first seeing the photos. A few things I looked at and one is the eagles right wing (viewers left) transition into the eagles body and neck. Due to variances in this area of authentic ones and how photos can change what things look like, I don't think one can positively identify a counterfeit but raise some suspicion.

This is the OP coin. Notice how the wing transition looks like 3 straight lines with a fairly sharp joint. Then when it connects to the neck there is an abrupt neck feather. This is not the normal look - more often rounded and smoother into neck feather. Also note the 'wavy' bottom of the D and E in united. The neck feather on the viewers right into the gap is prominent.
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From the below two threads is a fake 1879CC. Note the similarity between this 1879CC and the OP 1889S including the transition and bottom of the D and E and viewers right neck feather. The first photo is from the auction and the next is from the owner after receiving the coin. There is some differences due to noted photography.
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https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1077162/does-this-1879-cc-morgan-appear-counterfeit

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https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1077612/the-weight-and-diameter-are-correct-but-i-am-still-very-skeptical-it-is-fake

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This 1879CC from coinfacts is about the closest I have found to the above in the transition area. The D and E have flat bottoms.
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/44804207

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Another 1879CC from coinfacts for comparison that is more rounded transition.
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/84121868

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1889S from coinfacts that is the closest to the OP but again transition is smoother looking.
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/36333229

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One more 1889S from coinfacts a lot more rounding in the transition.
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/46071301

ProofCollection · July 19, 2023 6:03AM

The rim doesn't look right to me. You have a distinct rim and then the denticles, but real Morgans don't really have a rim outside of the denticles.

may · July 19, 2023 7:18AM

Ping test/magnet slide may be needed.

Zach98 · July 19, 2023 7:51AM

@Ownerofawheatiehorde said:
Ping test/magnet slide may be needed.

It is not magnetic and the weight is correct. I will post better pictures later. Thank You all for you input!

may · July 19, 2023 7:57AM

@Zach98 said:

@Ownerofawheatiehorde said:
Ping test/magnet slide may be needed.

It is not magnetic and the weight is correct. I will post better pictures later. Thank You all for you input!

A magnet slide is angled ramp with magnets on it. Since silver has magnetic properties, it should slowly slide down the slope. Other metals used for counterfeit coins can be way faster, or slower on the slide. A ping test is when you hold a real Morgan on the tip of your finger, and lightly tap it with a stick. Compare the sound it makes with the questionable coin. If it sounds different, the coin is fake and needs further testing.

ricko · July 19, 2023 9:04AM

The OP coin appears to be authentic, I would call it cleaned with VF details. Cheers, RickO

lilolme · July 19, 2023 11:50AM

I saw a thread about an 1893CC which was similar to the OP related to my above transition post. So I went to coinfacts and started looking at 1893CC. I could not find one in Unc but when I got down to the circulated coinfacts I found some that appear to be the same wing transition including the abrupt neck feather and have that prominent feather into the gap on the viewers right. First time I have been able to find a group of them. Not sure how this is occurring. Will now have to mark this down in my head. Still do not have the wavy letter bottoms but that could be something unrelated.
Cert numbers 18275642 / 41008264 / 45952359

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EDIT
@dcarr is there something in the die making process that could cause this difference in the viewers left wing transition into the eagles breast and neck? Also noting how the neck feathers appear different with one appearing to have a vertical neck line and the feathers inside it and the other where the feathers are outside the line.

I will note that the one (with feathers outside line) I could not find in an Unc on coinfacts. So I also wonder if it could have anything to do with wear and photographing. Just didn't seem like the total answer.

I put together this below comparison on a couple 1893CC for ease of viewing.

ProofCollection · July 19, 2023 3:17PM

This is a VF25 from Coinfacts:

I guess OP's coin looks close to this one and is probably legit.
Cert 47896186

lilolme · July 19, 2023 4:13PM

I decided to check VAMs. The 1893CC is a good one since VAMWorld only list 3 different reverse dies (C3a centered cc, C3b cc tilted right and C3c cc tilted left which did not have a photo). So below I have an Unc and a circulated example of C3a and C3b. It would appear that this is due to photography and possibly some circulation wear, dirt... That is because in both cases the Unc VAM appear different than the circulated version of the same VAM or reverse die.

VAM C3a Unc and Circ
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VAM C3b Unc and Circ
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lilolme · July 19, 2023 5:12PM

Okay one more time. This time I said - duh - why not get your 93CC and look at it and see if you can get it in photos.

My snap-o'matic will only let me get within about an inch or a little over of the coin. I then did some medium zoom and backed away a little and was able to get a little more of a close up. I moved the single light (so none of the photos are well lit) from 12 o/c to 3 o/c and then 6 o/c to see the differences. I was holding the camera in my hands (trying to do this quickly) so a little shake going on.

Light at 12 o/c and about an inch or so away. This one looks something like the TV with the light and some glare giving a smoother transition appearance.
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Light at 3 o/c and without zoom and with zoom. This one looks more like the circulated photos and the OP coin. One can see that the neck feathers protrude out and a more straight line transition.
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Last with light at 6 o/c. A little darker but kind of looks a little like a smoother transition. I guess it is a shadow and not glare creating that.
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Finally getting back to the OP coin. I would think don't grade it if it is not anything special to you. Even if straight graded it would appear to have an auction estimate well below $100 even for XF40. Here are a couple of page links.