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The weight and diameter are correct but I am still very skeptical it is fake

I posted this coin on here last week when I purchased it from an online estate sale. The consensus then was counterfeit. I got it in the mail today and was expecting the weight, diameter, magnetic to indicate counterfeit, but it is the correct weight and diameter and it is not magnetic. I was planning on asking the auction house for a refund but not sure if I can claim it is counterfeit. Thinking of just sending it into NGC and hoping it is a VAM-6 version (which is the only one that comes close to the mintmark). what are your thoughts?



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Comments

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,834 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There are silver fakes for better dates.

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "(which is the only one that comes close to the mintmark)."

    Close is not good enough, it needs to be an exact match. ;)

  • GoldenEggGoldenEgg Posts: 1,923 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Based on the color and luster, it does not appear to be silver. Even circulated silver does not look like this.

    Many of the minor details are incorrect. Also note the blob of metal left of the neck.

    Try to get your money back!

  • braddickbraddick Posts: 23,093 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Counterfeit. Perhaps a better quality counterfeit, yet a counterfeit none the same.

    peacockcoins

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This isn't even a better quality counterfeit, there are many things wrong with it.
    Take it to a pawn shop or jewelry store and ask them to scan it for you.
    Take it to a local coin shop in your area if there is one.

  • lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,453 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Tried to put the dates together. OP coin photo from this post on bottom. Top pcgs xf.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023

  • lkeneficlkenefic Posts: 7,815 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2022 9:31AM

    Your coin might actually be struck on a silver planchet, but the font on the lettering, mint mark, and especially the date are off. Look at the 9 in the date... clearly counterfeit. If you're still in contact with the auction house I'd try to get my money back there first... best of luck... and welcome to the Forum... wish we had better news for you.

    Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;

    Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
  • tincuptincup Posts: 4,760 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'd return it... if you are able to do so. I concur with the others who say not genuine mint product.

    ----- kj
  • Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2022 10:00AM

    Counterfeit

    Unless slabbed I don’t buy that material. Scary, I dont gamble on that stuff. Try get your money back.

    So Cali Area - Coins & Currency
  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Every response on both of your threads is that it's a counterfeit.

    The members here never 100% agree on anything...... that should tell you something. ;)

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,014 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tincup said:
    I'd return it... if you are able to do so. I concur with the others who say not genuine mint product.

    I believe that legally, he has a right to do so in the case of a counterfeit.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,190 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2022 9:51AM

    I'm confused- your example doesn't match any documented example for MM and position shown on Vam World; do you think it a new variety?

    Yours to Vam 6 on the right:

  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,534 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Matthewdm11 said:
    I posted this coin on here last week when I purchased it from an online estate sale. The consensus then was counterfeit. I got it in the mail today and was expecting the weight, diameter, magnetic to indicate counterfeit, but it is the correct weight and diameter and it is not magnetic. I was planning on asking the auction house for a refund but not sure if I can claim it is counterfeit. Thinking of just sending it into NGC and hoping it is a VAM-6 version (which is the only one that comes close to the mintmark). what are your thoughts?



    Try doing a specific gravity test. It will show that the coin is absolutely a fake. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_2vA1qO2fA

    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Matthewdm11 said:

    .
    as i stated in the other thread, no way, no how that is an authentic us mint product.

    i'm glad to see you putting it through the ringer before seeking a refund. nothing wrong with being careful.

    if you have some other silver dollars and a hard but non-damaging surface, do a ring test by dropping them one by one, back to back and listen to how different they are. if you have a coin shop nearby you can ask if they can do an xrf.

    i HIGHLY doubt that coin is silver and many counterfeits match weight and dimensions w/o having precious metals.

    so, other methods the pros use is to count the dentils and reeds, which takes a bit of practice ironically. also look for die gouges or die polishing marks and for the really trained eye (like leroy van allen/george mallis) look for "slide" marks which come from being die struck.

    @burfle23

    your example doesn't match any documented example for MM and position shown on Vam World

    this. the date is so far away from the rim to make this an open and shut case.

    @messydesk

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,680 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Still fake. Reverse is probably 1884-CC VAM 5. I think that reverse was also used on some fake 89-CC that were die struck.

  • IkesTIkesT Posts: 2,550 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @LanceNewmanOCC said:
    if you have some other silver dollars and a hard but non-damaging surface, do a ring test by dropping them one by one, back to back and listen to how different they are. if you have a coin shop nearby you can ask if they can do an xrf.

    i HIGHLY doubt that coin is silver and many counterfeits match weight and dimensions w/o having precious metals.

    Most local coin shops will not have an XRF spectrometer, but many do have a Precious Metal Verifier, which uses resistivity to determine if a coin is silver or not.

    While the coin surfaces and incorrect mint mark position are enough to confirm that the coin is a counterfeit, it wouldn't hurt to confirm that the coin is not silver, either. The people running the estate sale may not have any coin expertise, so the more information you can present them with, the better.

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @IkesT said:
    While the coin surfaces and incorrect mint mark position are enough to confirm that the coin is a counterfeit, it wouldn't hurt to confirm that the coin is not silver, either. The people running the estate sale may not have any coin expertise, so the more information you can present them with, the better.

    .
    +1

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • SlickCoinsSlickCoins Posts: 658 ✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2022 10:44AM

    Very nice coin,, thanks for sharing :)
    A few questions of course :)
    Is this mark raised?

    Next question can you get a picture closer of the date esp the 9?

    Final question :)
    The CC almost looks like claws on the top of the CC's can you get us closer?

  • goldengolden Posts: 9,045 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If the Forum tells you it is a fake, why in the world would you buy it?

  • SlickCoinsSlickCoins Posts: 658 ✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2022 10:50AM

    Depends how much was it?
    Well and based on what I'm seeing in the pics yeah I'd probably buy it (edited)

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @SlickCoins "The CC almost looks like claws on the top of the CC's"

    Put the bong down! ;)

  • SlickCoinsSlickCoins Posts: 658 ✭✭✭

    Lol dang you must have some good stuff if it causes you to see things 😣😳
    Hmmm I said almost :)

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @SlickCoins Next you are going to have them checking for master engraver initials on their counterfeit. :D

    Go away!

  • IkesTIkesT Posts: 2,550 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @SlickCoins said:
    Depends how much was it?
    Well and based on what I'm seeing in the pics yeah I'd probably buy it (edited)

    With respect, the OP is looking for advice from knowledgeable people, so it would be best for you not to comment.

  • SlickCoinsSlickCoins Posts: 658 ✭✭✭

    So you all deny that mark could be raised?

  • SlickCoinsSlickCoins Posts: 658 ✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2022 11:15AM

    ME Master Engraver marks are only on recycled dies, as stated by an expert in a coin shop,,, (which means after 1834 for which in 1835 they ended recycled dies per the mint director,,,, info off NGC), therefore this coin couldn't have them based on what he said,,,
    Also I agree with this guy 100%.

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2022 11:23AM

  • SlickCoinsSlickCoins Posts: 658 ✭✭✭

    🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂 if only life was that easy,,,, here ya go, here ya go, here ya go,,,I mean insulting IQ based on an opinion.

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I said almost ;)

  • SlickCoinsSlickCoins Posts: 658 ✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2022 11:16AM

    True :)
    I diggs ya either way,, was just saying :)
    This coin $300k on eBay right now.

  • OldhoopsterOldhoopster Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @SlickCoins

    Simple question. Do you believe the OPs coin is real or fake?

    Member of the ANA since 1982
  • SlickCoinsSlickCoins Posts: 658 ✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2022 11:53AM

    @Oldhoopster said:
    @SlickCoins

    Simple question. Do you believe the OPs coin is real or fake?

    Hey Hoopster:)
    I need more pictures :)
    I mean IDK, at least I'm looking closer & not insta fake.

    So you are saying the information I'm getting from experts both NGC and here and local is all bad info?

    My question is
    Did you all treat Gregory G Brunk this same way for pointing stuff out as you do me?
    In no way am I comparing myself to him from what I read he was highly respected in our field. :)

  • OldhoopsterOldhoopster Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So you're saying you can't be sure if the OPs coin is real of fake

    BTW: Countermarks have nothing have nothing to do with the OPs coin or the discussion on this thread. Please stay on topic. DO NOT hijack/derail another members post. Start a new thread if this information is important

    Member of the ANA since 1982
  • SlickCoinsSlickCoins Posts: 658 ✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2022 12:04PM

    No, I did point something out,,, I'm not saying I'm right at anything,, I'm simply making an opinion based on what I'm seeing.
    Also in no way am I trying to take over the OP's thread,,, I'm actually not sure if I'm in the fake or real final decision without,, yes up close pics and if that mark is raised.

  • braddickbraddick Posts: 23,093 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ifthevamzarockin said:
    This isn't even a better quality counterfeit, there are many things wrong with it.
    Take it to a pawn shop or jewelry store and ask them to scan it for you.
    Take it to a local coin shop in your area if there is one.

    if it truly is silver and the weight is good, it is better than the typical pot metal 99c wish.com crap that is commonly out there.

    peacockcoins

  • SlickCoinsSlickCoins Posts: 658 ✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2022 12:29PM

    Hmmm insta fake versus actually try to help 🤔🤔🤔🧐🧐🧐 these are tough calls to make for someone who is a nobody in our field but someones gotta do it, it seems. JMO
    PS this coin seems pretty rare if the price is $300k @ MS-66 thus would be one of those coins that demand that little extra effort either way. JMO
    Yes the gravity test is epic in a way that it either is or isn't. :) That one is a big one before the pics.

  • SlickCoinsSlickCoins Posts: 658 ✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2022 12:52PM

    Yes sir it's the date and the CC marks in my opinion they are super close to matching,, also I'm not saying you're wrong. Oh I just seen the 9 gap hmmm maybe that's why I focused on it.
    At the minimum a gravity test I would recommend,,, these guys are the experts I'm just a fellow collector.
    Also they are right I shouldn't be answering thus I'll quit sry all.

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @SlickCoins "I hope I can repair any DMG I might've gained,"

    You post this in another recent thread and then do exactly the same thing again.
    You don't seem very sincere about repairing any damage you have done or learning anything.

  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Fake all day long. I haven't read the thread, but as soon as I opened it up I could tell the piece is a modern, not contemporary, counterfeit meant to deceive modern collectors. That's a bad piece.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image

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