The weight and diameter are correct but I am still very skeptical it is fake
Matthewdm11
Posts: 37 ✭✭
I posted this coin on here last week when I purchased it from an online estate sale. The consensus then was counterfeit. I got it in the mail today and was expecting the weight, diameter, magnetic to indicate counterfeit, but it is the correct weight and diameter and it is not magnetic. I was planning on asking the auction house for a refund but not sure if I can claim it is counterfeit. Thinking of just sending it into NGC and hoping it is a VAM-6 version (which is the only one that comes close to the mintmark). what are your thoughts?
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Comments
There are silver fakes for better dates.
It is time for you to send it in and find out whether it is a fake or not. Buying raw coins that are known to be heavily counterfeited from online "estate" sales is just asking for trouble.
Looks fake. Counterfeiters will strike their fake coins using planchets that meet US Mint specifications and make their profit off of the numismatic premium they carry.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The coin looks counterfeit and I believe it would be a waste of money to submit it for grading/authentication.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
No question fake IMHO.
It appears to be a counterfeit coin. You can send it in for authentication, but by the time you have it confirmed as fake, it will be too late to return it. So you will have lost both purchase price and TPG fees. Cheers, RickO
Not a US Mint product 100% guaranteed. Counterfeit/Replica/Fake no question about it.
"(which is the only one that comes close to the mintmark)."
Close is not good enough, it needs to be an exact match.
My guess is it's slighter thicker than mint tolerance. I've seen similar pieces where the weight and diameter are spot on but they're too thick.
Based on the color and luster, it does not appear to be silver. Even circulated silver does not look like this.
Many of the minor details are incorrect. Also note the blob of metal left of the neck.
Try to get your money back!
Counterfeit. Perhaps a better quality counterfeit, yet a counterfeit none the same.
peacockcoins
This isn't even a better quality counterfeit, there are many things wrong with it.
Take it to a pawn shop or jewelry store and ask them to scan it for you.
Take it to a local coin shop in your area if there is one.
Tried to put the dates together. OP coin photo from this post on bottom. Top pcgs xf.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
Your coin might actually be struck on a silver planchet, but the font on the lettering, mint mark, and especially the date are off. Look at the 9 in the date... clearly counterfeit. If you're still in contact with the auction house I'd try to get my money back there first... best of luck... and welcome to the Forum... wish we had better news for you.
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I'd return it... if you are able to do so. I concur with the others who say not genuine mint product.
Counterfeit
Unless slabbed I don’t buy that material. Scary, I dont gamble on that stuff. Try get your money back.
Every response on both of your threads is that it's a counterfeit.
The members here never 100% agree on anything...... that should tell you something.
I believe that legally, he has a right to do so in the case of a counterfeit.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I'm confused- your example doesn't match any documented example for MM and position shown on Vam World; do you think it a new variety?
Yours to Vam 6 on the right:
Try doing a specific gravity test. It will show that the coin is absolutely a fake.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_2vA1qO2fA
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as i stated in the other thread, no way, no how that is an authentic us mint product.
i'm glad to see you putting it through the ringer before seeking a refund. nothing wrong with being careful.
if you have some other silver dollars and a hard but non-damaging surface, do a ring test by dropping them one by one, back to back and listen to how different they are. if you have a coin shop nearby you can ask if they can do an xrf.
i HIGHLY doubt that coin is silver and many counterfeits match weight and dimensions w/o having precious metals.
so, other methods the pros use is to count the dentils and reeds, which takes a bit of practice ironically. also look for die gouges or die polishing marks and for the really trained eye (like leroy van allen/george mallis) look for "slide" marks which come from being die struck.
@burfle23
this. the date is so far away from the rim to make this an open and shut case.
@messydesk
Still fake. Reverse is probably 1884-CC VAM 5. I think that reverse was also used on some fake 89-CC that were die struck.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Most local coin shops will not have an XRF spectrometer, but many do have a Precious Metal Verifier, which uses resistivity to determine if a coin is silver or not.
While the coin surfaces and incorrect mint mark position are enough to confirm that the coin is a counterfeit, it wouldn't hurt to confirm that the coin is not silver, either. The people running the estate sale may not have any coin expertise, so the more information you can present them with, the better.
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+1
Very nice coin,, thanks for sharing
A few questions of course
Is this mark raised?
Next question can you get a picture closer of the date esp the 9?
Final question
The CC almost looks like claws on the top of the CC's can you get us closer?
If the Forum tells you it is a fake, why in the world would you buy it?
Depends how much was it?
Well and based on what I'm seeing in the pics yeah I'd probably buy it (edited)
@SlickCoins "The CC almost looks like claws on the top of the CC's"
Put the bong down!
Lol dang you must have some good stuff if it causes you to see things 😣😳
Hmmm I said almost
@SlickCoins Next you are going to have them checking for master engraver initials on their counterfeit.
Go away!
With respect, the OP is looking for advice from knowledgeable people, so it would be best for you not to comment.
So you all deny that mark could be raised?
ME Master Engraver marks are only on recycled dies, as stated by an expert in a coin shop,,, (which means after 1834 for which in 1835 they ended recycled dies per the mint director,,,, info off NGC), therefore this coin couldn't have them based on what he said,,,
Also I agree with this guy 100%.
🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂 if only life was that easy,,,, here ya go, here ya go, here ya go,,,I mean insulting IQ based on an opinion.
I said almost
True
I diggs ya either way,, was just saying
This coin $300k on eBay right now.
@SlickCoins
Simple question. Do you believe the OPs coin is real or fake?
Dude you’re a nuisance and your knowledge is very minimal, enough to mislead other newer members 🤨😡 you should be investing your time in reading books or visiting certain websites where you can learn about the minting process and how errors are made. Then others would be more receptive to what you have to say. Nuff said 😤
Hey Hoopster:)
I need more pictures
I mean IDK, at least I'm looking closer & not insta fake.
So you are saying the information I'm getting from experts both NGC and here and local is all bad info?
My question is
Did you all treat Gregory G Brunk this same way for pointing stuff out as you do me?
In no way am I comparing myself to him from what I read he was highly respected in our field.
So you're saying you can't be sure if the OPs coin is real of fake
BTW: Countermarks have nothing have nothing to do with the OPs coin or the discussion on this thread. Please stay on topic. DO NOT hijack/derail another members post. Start a new thread if this information is important
No, I did point something out,,, I'm not saying I'm right at anything,, I'm simply making an opinion based on what I'm seeing.
Also in no way am I trying to take over the OP's thread,,, I'm actually not sure if I'm in the fake or real final decision without,, yes up close pics and if that mark is raised.
if it truly is silver and the weight is good, it is better than the typical pot metal 99c wish.com crap that is commonly out there.
peacockcoins
Hmmm insta fake versus actually try to help 🤔🤔🤔🧐🧐🧐 these are tough calls to make for someone who is a nobody in our field but someones gotta do it, it seems. JMO
That one is a big one before the pics.
PS this coin seems pretty rare if the price is $300k @ MS-66 thus would be one of those coins that demand that little extra effort either way. JMO
Yes the gravity test is epic in a way that it either is or isn't.
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So the overwhelming consensus of members, many of whom have demonstrated outstanding knowledge and credibility within the hobby as well on this forum, have pointed out numerous characteristics that show without a doubt this coin is fake. Yet you want the OP the do extra work taking and posting extra pics? For what purpose?
Instead of bringing up something unrelated, maybe you could tell us which one of the fake characteristics do you find unconvincing. Date? mm style? Denticals, Metal blob by the neck? A renowned VAM expert stating that the rev die matches a type that wasn't used in 1879? Take your pick.
If you want to go on a quest to prove 2+2=5, knock your socks off. Just don't be irresponsible and try to hoodwink the OP into chasing your windmill.
To @Matthewdm11 Sorry that your post was hijacked. This "member" has a history of derailing threads and posting nonsense. However, you did receive factual, accurate, correct information from a number of expert numismatists.
Yes sir it's the date and the CC marks in my opinion they are super close to matching,, also I'm not saying you're wrong. Oh I just seen the 9 gap hmmm maybe that's why I focused on it.
At the minimum a gravity test I would recommend,,, these guys are the experts I'm just a fellow collector.
Also they are right I shouldn't be answering thus I'll quit sry all.
@SlickCoins "I hope I can repair any DMG I might've gained,"
You post this in another recent thread and then do exactly the same thing again.
You don't seem very sincere about repairing any damage you have done or learning anything.
I must say, this forum is amazing. Both posts I authored about this coin has been very informative for me and everyone has been willing to educate me. I have decided to not send it to NGC and I am going to try to get a refund from the auction house.
Fake all day long. I haven't read the thread, but as soon as I opened it up I could tell the piece is a modern, not contemporary, counterfeit meant to deceive modern collectors. That's a bad piece.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
"I have decided to not send it to NGC and I am going to try to get a refund from the auction house."
Smart move!