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Yet another altered 1931-S cent - but this one is a Gem!

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  • ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 12,906 ✭✭✭✭✭

    For comparison, a genuine 31-s (from Coinfacts)

  • coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 11,370 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The three doesn't have the correct shape it would appear. Maybe it is more obvious in hand but that is a very skillful alteration as I see no sign of scratches or marks around the 3 in the auction photo.

    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
  • tincuptincup Posts: 5,188 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Could it have been die struck with a counterfeit die? It would be good to see a close up of the last '1' to see if there are indications of alterations.

    ----- kj
  • tincuptincup Posts: 5,188 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Does seem to have some indication of radiant lines on both sides of the 1. Very skillful.

    ----- kj
  • TrampTramp Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭✭

    USAF (Ret.) 1985 - 2005. E-4B Aircraft Maintenance Crew Chief and Contracting Officer.
    My current Registry sets:
    ✓ Everyman Mint State Carson City Morgan Dollars (1878 – 1893)
    ✓ Everyman Mint State Lincoln Cents (1909 – 1958)
    ✓ Morgan Dollar GSA Hoard (1878 – 1891)

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,902 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you do anything to a bright red gem cent it shows. ;)
    To get the field surfaces and the color to match after the alteration would be a challenge.

    My dumb guess would be a counterfeit rather than an alteration.

  • WalkerloverWalkerlover Posts: 891 ✭✭✭✭

    The S looks added on as I see scratches and tool marks.

  • WAYNEASWAYNEAS Posts: 6,787 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree that the “S” was added as it seems to have a slight tilt to it.
    Wayne

    Kennedys are my quest...

  • ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 12,906 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 22, 2023 5:05PM

    @WAYNEAS said:
    I agree that the “S” was added as it seems to have a slight tilt to it.
    Wayne

    I doubt the S was added, as I would think a genuine 31 Philly would be the host coin for an added S, which the coin pictured in the OP is not.

  • WalkerloverWalkerlover Posts: 891 ✭✭✭✭

    Perhaps it is genuine

  • IkesTIkesT Posts: 3,215 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Walkerlover said:
    Perhaps it is genuine

    Not a genuine 1931-S, no.

  • IkesTIkesT Posts: 3,215 ✭✭✭✭✭

  • lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,658 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So here are some screen shots.
    The first is from the OP.
    .

    .
    This one is from eBay and I clicked the eBay image to get the image only.
    Hmmm... some square like image lines next to the S.
    Also looks like a thin lined box (larger) outside the S. (horizontal below 3 and vertical also below 3 = one corner below 3)
    .

    .
    And so I adjusted the exposure and a couple others to see what it looked like. And....
    .

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=_KWVk0XeB9o - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Piece Of My Heart
    .
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed

    RLJ 1958 - 2023

  • lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,658 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I see @IkesT posted a similar image (I am guessing from eBay also) at the same time. You can also see the same thing in it.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=_KWVk0XeB9o - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Piece Of My Heart
    .
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed

    RLJ 1958 - 2023

  • IkesTIkesT Posts: 3,215 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 23, 2023 5:01AM

    @lilolme said:
    I see @IkesT posted a similar image (I am guessing from eBay also) at the same time. You can also see the same thing in it.

    I was mainly looking at the date, because as Connecticoin pointed out, it's definitely a modified date. The spacing and shape of the "3" doesn't match a 1931 cent, and to the right of the second "1" you can see what looks like the outline of the original numeral (perhaps a 6 or 8, as suggested in the OP).

  • ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,526 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The logo in the upper left should tell you all you need to know.
    Also a quick look at their feedback and item descriptions shows that they use stock photos, I'm sure a statement they added as a CYA.
    @lilolme I think it looks like they used a picture of a Philly coin and shadily added an S in [photo editing program of choice]. A real 31-S mint mark looks nothing like that.

    Collector, occasional seller

  • lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,658 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think I got it now. @IkesT indicates it is not a 1931. As @ChrisH821 indicates the S looks added via photo.

    Enlarging my previous photo with the modified exposure, see below, it appears that the second 1 in the date 1931 is also added. I can see some horizontal and vertical lines around it. Also the second 1 in the date looks like the first 1 in the date. Notice the lighting around the top of the 1 and other. So that could be the source of the added second 1.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=_KWVk0XeB9o - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Piece Of My Heart
    .
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed

    RLJ 1958 - 2023

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,251 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lilolme said:
    So here are some screen shots.
    The first is from the OP.
    .

    .
    This one is from eBay and I clicked the eBay image to get the image only.
    Hmmm... some square like image lines next to the S.
    Also looks like a thin lined box (larger) outside the S. (horizontal below 3 and vertical also below 3 = one corner below 3)
    .

    .
    And so I adjusted the exposure and a couple others to see what it looked like. And....
    .

    So a photoshopped image. Excellent detective work!

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,526 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So... someone want to buy this and see what they actually get? :D

    Collector, occasional seller

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,251 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ChrisH821 said:
    So... someone want to buy this and see what they actually get? :D

    Besides the proverbial vertical mine tunnel?

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • BuffaloIronTailBuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,481 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 24, 2023 10:35AM

    The first 1 and last 1 are identical.

    They have the exact shading that matches perfectly.

    Pete

    Edited to add: The last 3 in the date had to have been copied from the first 3, then pasted in place of where the original digit was removed.

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
  • rec78rec78 Posts: 5,741 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I never really put much thought into well faked 1931-S cents. I have a few 1931-S Lincolns, I guess that I need to check them now. Not many collectors would be able to distinguish the alterations as you have. Thanks for the info. Bob

    image
  • ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 12,906 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:

    @ChrisH821 said:
    So... someone want to buy this and see what they actually get? :D

    Besides the proverbial vertical mine tunnel?

    Seller appears to not be the best - lots of negative feedback - so I suspect the seller knows it is fake. I reported the listing, but I doubt ebay will do anything unless there are muliple reports (feel free to report the listing yourselves 😁)

  • lkeneficlkenefic Posts: 8,160 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wow! If the actual coin looks like the image "in hand" I'd be fooled. So, after reading through the analyses offered by some very knowledgeable numismatists, it looks to be a mashup of a counterfeit or altered coin as well as an altered image of said coin. I was wondering how someone could alter a RD Lincoln Cent without obvious tool marks... solution... alter the image too!

    godspeed for this hobby... :-/

    Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;

    Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
  • WalkerloverWalkerlover Posts: 891 ✭✭✭✭

    Probably the seller can’t deliver the coin in the picture as it doesn’t exist

  • ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 12,906 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The coin was re-listed, I reported it again. Evidence of altering probably photoshopped out, as discussed above. Hopefully ebay nukes it this time.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/304995657897

  • steve76020steve76020 Posts: 367 ✭✭✭

    it looks like it was a 21sor 41 s i read that some alter them by drilling into the rim and using a tool to put the fake mark on the coin then fill the hole and go from there

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