@gumby1234 said:
I think the toning scores should be the same across all series. If a certain series doesn't have nice toning so be it. A nice toner is a nice toner independent of series. There will never be Peace dollars that tone as well as Morgans, but that doesn't mean Peace dollars should get an "A" score for subpar toning. Just like I shouldn't get an A in school if I'm a C student. As for value a C toned Peace may be very valuable thou and pricing can take this into account. The same for certain dates of a series. An 1881 S toned Morgan would be valued less than an equally toned tougher date. I think the pricing should reflect these things, not the toning grade.
I agree. Toning Pricing will reflect the scarcity per series/date when we implement that update. (2 ish weeks I’d say)
The app now appears to read at least some Canadian coins and also reads at least some US clad coinage. You may want to update the wording on the app to reflect that clad coins can be scored, as well.
@TomB said:
The app now appears to read at least some Canadian coins and also reads at least some US clad coinage. You may want to update the wording on the app to reflect that clad coins can be scored, as well.
Indeed. Will update that. Batching all these fixes into one update so you guys don’t have to hit the App Store multiples times.
I normally stay away from this stuff but will throw some stuff (and opinions) out. Will I get blasted. Oh poor me.
@treybenedict
I can see this will be long post - sorry.
Early in my career my boss said to me after a meeting (summarized) - be careful how you use data (or data is used - in this case it was coupon testing). I believe this can be useful in this case for both the program and program user.
I don't have access to the program (samsung phone) so I don't know if it defines what this Pure Estimate is. To clarify PCGS defines there price guide here: https://www.pcgs.com/prices
And CDN has some information here: https://www.greysheet.com/how-does-cdn-greysheet-cpg-determine-pricing
Legend auction when giving an auction estimates defines their estimates as (summarized) Hammer and estimated dealer retail (their numismatics estimate).
With these definitions one can then better determine how and/or if they want to use them.
The point is that this Pure estimate I believe needs to have a (clear) definition of what it is and hopefully limitations stated. So from reading some other posts/thread it appears to be an estimate based off of auction results. Somewhere I think I recall trey saying no other dealer information or stuff being used. But after saying it is based off auction results only (assuming I am correct with that) I believe it needs to clarify what the estimate is. Is it a prediction of what that same coin would sell for if put into an auction today? Does it represent a dealer wholesale, retail or what one might be able to sell it for to a dealer, on their own via eBay or other? Then I would also think there should be some disclaimers about high end versus low end for the grade and such. Also how the estimate could change with time (if more data became available). Anyway the point is - the more well defined the Pure estimate is, then the better off the user 'should' be. Again my opinion and not a statement of fact.
Some words here about some of the above examples that some forum member have provided. Thanks as again I have no access.
The ones previously in this thread appear to have limited data versus say some generic Morgan or gold. I think these (generic) would work better simply due to more data. The more limited the data I believe the more caution that should be exercised.
Also when I am reviewing a potential purchase I will often view the previous auction lot. Some I will throw out due to them being 'ugly' or perhaps not applicable otherwise (see below).
I want to make note of what to do for varieties. This is a fairly good example and can be a 'thing' for Bust halves and Overton and other series. In this example the coins slabbed with a variety designation (765228 and 765235) are not being used for the pricing. However, if one clicks on the Stack auction for the $4560 on Aug 2022 (which is being included in the program auction results) it can be seen that it is being advertised as a HM-1 rarity 6.
So what to do with the varieties that are slabbed as a variety and have a different coin number. The auction house will often identify the variety if it is more rare (better results) and on some even if it is not. So should the same coin variety that has been slabbed as a variety be included. Sometimes yes but maybe not if it is a rare variety and skews to the high side. But then it is included if it is in a normal slab coin number and identified by the auction house in the listing as a variety. Treating the same variety two ways.
Also from the @DeplorableDan list, I am not a fan of using data when it is 'older' auction data. Now when is auction data 'older'? Good question and it will definitely vary. Some of this variance can be due to how the recent market has been overall or in a particular series. If the market has be somewhat stable, then auction data can be older. Recent times the market has not been as stable. There have bee noticeable trends (many upward) since Covid and data just a few years old is outdated for some series but the program appears to have no cutoff due to date of auction. It appears some old data can 'pull down' some estimates. These auction results are not like analyzing a group of test results because the auction results can be time sensitive and not applicable.
Another one to point out is the one @Zoins asked about the 50c 1964 and:
"Very interesting. This looks like a huge price drop from 2005 which bears investigation."
A short investigation using coinfacts and pcgs auction prices realized reveals this is the old (and in my opinion outdated - see above) auction lot. While it is slabbed as a E14516 it is listed in the pcgs APR as a 6706 and also is showing up in this programs data. This is a little related to the variety thing but in this case it is an error coin showing up as a baseline coin number (even though in this case it is slabbed as an error but in the database as a baseline coin).
One other item semi-related to the above varieties and errors and stuff, it the low pop coins that are top pop or tied for (or similar). These can get distorted values initially. Made up example: A coin is pop 1/0 or 2/0 and comes to auction and goes for a high value. Then as time goes by that coin becomes a pop 9/0 or maybe even a 8/1. That is many more show up or 'have been made' (some might be crackouts though). That initial auction sale at this point should be suspect. If there are other more recent auctions, then maybe skip that first one. If none, then be aware that things might have changed. Don't know how to account for this but perhaps stated in the definition of what the Pure estimate represents.
There is probably more but as I stated initially, this would seem to work much better for coins with more auction records. Some or much of this stuff would get 'washed out' so to say with more data.
The color stuff. Oh to much to type out for that.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023
@gumby1234 said: @TomB I suspect that there are many more F coins out there than A coins.
True. For these, it would be interesting to have a grade scale measuring degree of luster remaining so stripped coins that have been dipped too many times can be identified.
@lilolme said:
I normally stay away from this stuff but will throw some stuff (and opinions) out. Will I get blasted. Oh poor me.
@treybenedict
I can see this will be long post - sorry.
Early in my career my boss said to me after a meeting (summarized) - be careful how you use data (or data is used - in this case it was coupon testing). I believe this can be useful in this case for both the program and program user.
Thank you for this amazing feedback. I really appreciate you taking the time to be able to share your insights as it helps us grow as a startup and help cater to what users want.
I totally agree with making documentation about the Pure Estimate. I think having clearly defined features for transparency purposes is very important to our success in the industry with the collector. Currently, we are only trying to provide factual insights through the use of statistics and machine learning. However, as you said it is very important for there to be full data sets to be able to give actionable insights for all coins.
We are trying to tackle the data problem in two ways:
Creating indexes for series to compare values over time given market health
Using the "nearest neighbor" coins to identify and re-analyze prices if there is little data for specific coins.
This process is going to take some time to get set up. The current infrastructure for coins is no short of antiquated, and quite fragmented across services and needed some sort of centralization just to be able to get information in one place.
By no means is it perfect, and we hope to keep taking user feedback into account so we can help your daily process of collecting, buying & selling!
We are really excited to announce that Pure Technologies is launching our first iOS App on the app store on June 21st, for all iPhone sizes on iOS 16.0 or higher. The app is called: Collect Pure: Scan Rare Coins, and has taken 3 months of dedicated work from our engineering team who used to work at Apple, and Amazon & Heritage. It is free for everyone to download and comes with live support & documentation that can be accessed here. Our goal is to create pricing transparency for all collectors, dealers and auction houses so please share with your friends!
Let me introduce you to some of the features of this public preview version...
Scan PCGS, NGC, CAC & (soon) CACG Holders all at Once
Verifying Certs, Looking up prices & Onboarding Inventory has never been easier. Pure offers four different ways to onboard certified coins including matrix scan (multiple holders at once), single scan, manual entry (traditional cert lookup), and NFC tap for certified coins equipped with NFC. We created a custom barcode decoding algorithm to be able to decipher the services apart from each other with very high accuracy, so you don't have to specify the service when using matrix scan or single scan features. Furthermore, you can subtract scans with a review page on matrix scan to view coins individually or save them all at once to your inventory.
Pure Pricing Engine
The Pure Pricing Engine produces unique pricing points for each coin, separating grading services and providing real-time estimates on common dates and rarities alike. We utilize over 7 million Auction Sales from Top Numismatic Auction Houses in our machine learning and statistical models to be able to produce an accurate and actionable price for the collector/dealer. Understand trending values, view previous results, and toggle across different grades to view alternative sales. We only take into account Pure historical records in our models to produce unbiased and transparent results eliminating price guides, wholesale and retail pricing.
Tracking Real-Time Inventory/Collection Value
After Scanning in your coins via Scanning, Tapping, or Manual Entry, you can save them by clicking the download button at the top right of the page. This adds and tracks your inventory in one sweep to allow for ease of sorting and viewing. The inventory is searchable by date, comes automatically ordered by denomination, and can be segmented by service. You may delete coins from your inventory all at once using the trash can button, or by swiping left to individually delete. On the home page, a breakdown of inventory will be charted and viewable, as well as an aggregate real-time value that updates automatically with recent sales.
Obverse AI Toning Analysis Reports for PCGS Trueviews
Upon scanning a coin with a PCGS Trueview, click the rainbow emoji Icon in the top right corner to be able to generate an Obverse AI Toning analysis that both rates the toning on a letter scale (A+, A, A- ... F), and provides a color scale indicator for how toned the coin is. Please be patient as this is an experimental feature and may take ~1-2 minutes to generate given the high processing time of computer vision & machine learning. Updates coming soon: Adaptive pricing after running a toning analysis, Number score & Letter score, as well as segmented analysis for Obverse & Reverse Images.
The app comes embedded with live support and documentation to help you figure out all the nooks and crannies of usability, and you are more than welcome to message me directly for support or email me at treyb@berkeley.edu.
The app is currently available for Pre-Order and will officially launch and download to your phone on June 21st, 2023. You must have an account to use the app, the signup is at the beginning when onboarded.
Note: This is a public preview and has lots of iterations and updates to come. We appreciate your support highly by leaving a 5-star review on the app store as it helps us grow as a startup. All logos and trademarks of associated companies belong to their respective copyright holders.
Furthermore, I will be at the Long Beach show this week and am happy to help you get onboarded, take user feedback, and also implement new features that you would like to see. I'll have goodies for those that come say hi
Sounds interesting. Would like to see the app compatible with Android phones as well.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
@lilolme said:
I normally stay away from this stuff but will throw some stuff (and opinions) out. Will I get blasted. Oh poor me.
@treybenedict
I can see this will be long post - sorry.
Early in my career my boss said to me after a meeting (summarized) - be careful how you use data (or data is used - in this case it was coupon testing). I believe this can be useful in this case for both the program and program user.
Thank you for this amazing feedback. I really appreciate you taking the time to be able to share your insights as it helps us grow as a startup and help cater to what users want.
I totally agree with making documentation about the Pure Estimate. I think having clearly defined features for transparency purposes is very important to our success in the industry with the collector. Currently, we are only trying to provide factual insights through the use of statistics and machine learning. However, as you said it is very important for there to be full data sets to be able to give actionable insights for all coins.
We are trying to tackle the data problem in two ways:
Creating indexes for series to compare values over time given market health
Using the "nearest neighbor" coins to identify and re-analyze prices if there is little data for specific coins.
This process is going to take some time to get set up. The current infrastructure for coins is no short of antiquated, and quite fragmented across services and needed some sort of centralization just to be able to get information in one place.
By no means is it perfect, and we hope to keep taking user feedback into account so we can help your daily process of collecting, buying & selling!
Cant wait to see future modifications to the pricing data, trey. I was able to add the Kellogg $20 manually, so that worked fine. I think when you code it to extrapolate data based on the neighbor coins, we'll be cooking with gas.
The other thing i'm wondering is if you could add a feature where the collector inputs the price they paid for the coin, similar to the PCGS set registry app. Right now, the app tells you the value of the collection based on the apps estimate which is drawn from publicly available comps. I think I can speak for most collectors when I say that if I paid "X" for my collection, I don't want the app to tell me that my collection is only worth (.7)X.
By adding this feature, perhaps the app could even absorb the data input by the collector, and use that to help with the index for a given series. Auction comps are only the tip of the iceberg, and often times represent the low end of what one might pay for a coin. All of the private sales don't get recorded anywhere, and as we know not all collectors like bidding in auctions. If a coin commonly sells in auction for $3,000, theres a good chance that the collector might have bought the coin from a dealer who had to mark it up 10-20%.
In regards the the pricing transparency, I think it is a great idea to have disclosures that tell you exactly what the price estimate represents- retail, wholesale, etc. Maybe even a Kelley Blue Book approach - When you look up your vehicle it gives you several options for pricing. Sell to a private party, trade in to a dealer, etc. Maybe the app could do something similar where it gives 2 different price tabs? One being an optimistic retail price in todays market, and the other being a "trade in" or "sell to a dealer" price? Excuse my ramblings but I figured id throw some ideas at you.
@robec said:
Will there be the ability to use photos other than TrueViews planned in the future?
Yes, we will be adding this in. First on manual approval so the dimensions and specs fit correctly.
There will be options to use Obv/Rev or just a trueview sized photo.
They can be zoomed for max quality as well. Setting up the image storage buckets in glacier is already complete, it’s just a switch we have to turn on.
Looks like a fun app so far! As an Android user, I'll just sit back, sip on some tequila and wait for that version.
Will there be an option in the app to analyze non TrueView photos? There are lots of us who take really good quality photos of coins - and quite a few them don't have TrueViews.
@ElmerFusterpuck said:
Looks like a fun app so far! As an Android user, I'll just sit back, sip on some tequila and wait for that version.
Will there be an option in the app to analyze non TrueView photos? There are lots of us who take really good quality photos of coins - and quite a few them don't have TrueViews.
Yes. They’ll have to meet certain qualifications however for our storage purposes. I explained a bit more as to our idea on self-serve photos in the comment above.
It gets a little more tricky with matching photos and keeping usability on the model when new outside factors are added in.
Likely will be sooner than Android when we push a web versioning!
@treybenedict
It looks like inventory is sorted by denomination. It would be cool to sort by year. I wanted to just look at dimes so I tried 10c in search and it did not return anything so I am guessing the search feature might work for Cert number? Not sure.
I checked the documentation out to see if there was a glossary for the icons when you do a color analysis. There’s a T-Rex so I am guessing that’s for monster toned and then there’s a CD/DVD image and I was curious about that one. I entered an 1812 50c I have in VF25 that is of course worn and kinda dark so I wanted to see what it would show for that and it showed a crescent moon…,maybe meaning dark? I saw a yellow star used as well. Do you have a list of all the icons used and their intended meaning?
I see the artificial toning flags do not seem to be in place right now so I guess you are still fine tuning that?
Neat product so far. It will be interesting when you can toggle between letter grades and numerical grades but I think it would be better to have the option to display them both at the same time. That way you have the ability to see the number but it immediately puts it into context with the letter grade and you don’t have to switch.
Really neat app. I think you will have the biggest challenge when it comes to pricing toners. It will be interesting to see where that goes.
This is a neat concept and I hope it stays true to generations of coin collecting, dealing, etc.
I think that instead of user-uploaded photographs, the app should work with a phone's camera and flashlight to generate its own high quality images for analysis. TrueViews are great representations of coins, but I find that they are sometimes better looking than the actual coins.
@treybenedict said:
We set the sales limit to pull 5 of the most recent sales.
Would you guys like to see more?
I think bumping to 7 recent for each service would be good. Maybe 10?
Looking to hear feedback and can push a hot fix.
Hey @treybenedict I thought this comment/question was good to try to expand upon. Hopefully I can write this out clearly (as I fail at that often).
So on the pulling the 5 most recent sales - I want to expand on my previous comment about the varieties. There are numerous things that can influence an auction result. When I do my own deeper price estimates I will go to the pcgs APR and then click on each auction result to view each of the recent auction lots. I want to eliminate the ones that I feel are not applicable.
So when the program pulls the 5 most recent sales it is not clear (to me) what that will represent.
At this point I will note some things that can influence those auction sales. As previously noted a (rarer) variety (or error) identified by the auction house, of course toning, an old slab -especially the early ngc - black, regency or the very early pcgs, sometimes I think for moderns the labels or signed labels, perhaps a counter-stamp or similar on some coin types... and others I know I am forgetting. Of course there will almost always be the high end for the grade and low end but that is part of all of it.
So when the program pulls the 5 most recent sales and if they are all 'basic' mix of high end to low end then this sounds like a good mix of data points. However, if the 5 most recent sales have some rare variety, wow 'toner' or some other particular that causes a high (or sometimes low) auction value, then I would question how that is influencing the Pure estimate. As I previously noted when doing independently I throw these out.
Hope that is clear?
I am assuming the program will not be able to 'view' the auction information and sort out these A-typical results. If it can, then great but so far it appears not. A couple of thoughts on this.
Identify this in the information describing what the Pure estimate is. That is that it pull the 5 most recent and might contain some A-typical sales.
Also could there be a limit put on the auction values where the program would identify the suspect auction sale and ask the user to investigate? One potential method might be that any individual auction sale that is 100% (or pick another value) above the average or 50% (or pick another value) below the average would be identified for review. Perhaps a button could be added to where the user could eliminate these from the program calculation and re-calculate. This might have more problems but just a thought.
On the question of 5 or 7 or 10 most recent sales. I think this is dependent upon how many applicable sales are available. If it is a coin and grade with a lot of sales within a recent time period, then yes add more. But if expanding the number of sales will drive it back to sales that happened years ago, then those additional 'old' data points might actually hurt the accuracy of the data.
On the age of the data points or auction sales that are used in the Pure estimate. Could there be an option to set a limit or date as to how far back the user wants to go for auction results? Also as part of the program output, could it list the most recent and oldest auction sales dates that it is using?
One other thing on the variety. If a user has a coin that is slabbed as a variety (say a bust half with an Overton number), then it will not have the basic coin number. Example 50c 1813 is pcgs #6103 but if it has the variety attribution of O-102 added it will be pcgs #39460. So I think the program would then go looking for #39460 that the user input which might have limited data. Could there be an option to include the general/basic 1813 #6103 data information if the user opted for it.
And one more. I know at HA I can do some searches looking for 6103 or 39460 or O-102 but not so confident how well this works. However, this is one way I can sometimes find some of the O-102 or 39460 data (example only).
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023
@The_Dinosaur_Man said:
This is a neat concept and I hope it stays true to generations of coin collecting, dealing, etc.
I think that instead of user-uploaded photographs, the app should work with a phone's camera and flashlight to generate its own high quality images for analysis. TrueViews are great representations of coins, but I find that they are sometimes better looking than the actual coins.
This is an interesting concept to explore. I think that it can be fleshed out more in the future to understand luster, but the usability of the camera and lighting conditions differs from person to person and negates our stabilization problem, hence why I was using trueviews before.
Thank you for the insights though! I’ll experiment with this a bit to see if it can’t work.
@keyman64 said: @treybenedict
It looks like inventory is sorted by denomination. It would be cool to sort by year. I wanted to just look at dimes so I tried 10c in search and it did not return anything so I am guessing the search feature might work for Cert number? Not sure.
I checked the documentation out to see if there was a glossary for the icons when you do a color analysis. There’s a T-Rex so I am guessing that’s for monster toned and then there’s a CD/DVD image and I was curious about that one. I entered an 1812 50c I have in VF25 that is of course worn and kinda dark so I wanted to see what it would show for that and it showed a crescent moon…,maybe meaning dark? I saw a yellow star used as well. Do you have a list of all the icons used and their intended meaning?
I see the artificial toning flags do not seem to be in place right now so I guess you are still fine tuning that?
Neat product so far. It will be interesting when you can toggle between letter grades and numerical grades but I think it would be better to have the option to display them both at the same time. That way you have the ability to see the number but it immediately puts it into context with the letter grade and you don’t have to switch.
Really neat app. I think you will have the biggest challenge when it comes to pricing toners. It will be interesting to see where that goes.
Thanks so much for leaving this comment! It’s very helpful for me.
Inventory search will be updated to full search next update. You can query by date, denom, grade, service, cert etc. Currently only search for date is included as it was easy to launch with. For sure tweaking this a bit more.
It is sorted by denom first, then date. So 1855 10C comes before 1853 25C etc.
I will post the full chart of toning grades and their correlated scores and emojis in a minute.
AT flags are not in place since all trueviews are deemed market acceptable and I do not want to contradict the word of our hosts.
We will test some user experience demos with the toning scores and grades. I really appreciate all the insights though these are are so very helpful!
Hey @treybenedict I thought this comment/question was good to try to expand upon. Hopefully I can write this out clearly (as I fail at that often).
So on the pulling the 5 most recent sales - I want to expand on my previous comment about the varieties. There are numerous things that can influence an auction result. When I do my own deeper price estimates I will go to the pcgs APR and then click on each auction result to view each of the recent auction lots. I want to eliminate the ones that I feel are not applicable.
So when the program pulls the 5 most recent sales it is not clear (to me) what that will represent.
Totally understand. Thank you for leaving the time to respond to my question as well with such a great answer.
I agree, I think that having both the base number and the variety to be seen is very applicable. I think that we can also push out the “outliers” that are affecting the pure price estimate. We still want to display those for the user to be able to look at, but as you said some may be very rare holders, monster toners etc.
We can also dynamically push more sales based upon availability I think this could be a good idea for more common coins to get a more solid price.
Another feature I was going to add was a non-cert lookup for a coin. Basically by industry number, or natural language that can show just sales based on the queried coin.
Cant wait to see future modifications to the pricing data, trey. I was able to add the Kellogg $20 manually, so that worked fine. I think when you code it to extrapolate data based on the neighbor coins, we'll be cooking with gas.
The other thing i'm wondering is if you could add a feature where the collector inputs the price they paid for the coin, similar to the PCGS set registry app. Right now, the app tells you the value of the collection based on the apps estimate which is drawn from publicly available comps. I think I can speak for most collectors when I say that if I paid "X" for my collection, I don't want the app to tell me that my collection is only worth (.7)X.
By adding this feature, perhaps the app could even absorb the data input by the collector, and use that to help with the index for a given series. Auction comps are only the tip of the iceberg, and often times represent the low end of what one might pay for a coin. All of the private sales don't get recorded anywhere, and as we know not all collectors like bidding in auctions. If a coin commonly sells in auction for $3,000, theres a good chance that the collector might have bought the coin from a dealer who had to mark it up 10-20%.
Hey Dan, thanks for the response! Really appreciate these insights as well.
I think that the pure estimate is conservative. I understand that it’s likely below what most people typically pay for their coins at shows or in private sales, however I wanted to be a good baseline for users when looking into purchasing their items.
As for tracking private sales data, we have some plans around this in the future. Having users input their buy price is valid if there’s attached records of the sale. If that sale is marketplace verified it would be very valuable to present value of the pure estimate.
There’s definitely more work to be done, but I will try to push as many updates to get it as accurate as possible!
@keyman64 said: @treybenedict
It looks like inventory is sorted by denomination. It would be cool to sort by year. I wanted to just look at dimes so I tried 10c in search and it did not return anything so I am guessing the search feature might work for Cert number? Not sure.
I checked the documentation out to see if there was a glossary for the icons when you do a color analysis. There’s a T-Rex so I am guessing that’s for monster toned and then there’s a CD/DVD image and I was curious about that one. I entered an 1812 50c I have in VF25 that is of course worn and kinda dark so I wanted to see what it would show for that and it showed a crescent moon…,maybe meaning dark? I saw a yellow star used as well. Do you have a list of all the icons used and their intended meaning?
I see the artificial toning flags do not seem to be in place right now so I guess you are still fine tuning that?
Neat product so far. It will be interesting when you can toggle between letter grades and numerical grades but I think it would be better to have the option to display them both at the same time. That way you have the ability to see the number but it immediately puts it into context with the letter grade and you don’t have to switch.
Really neat app. I think you will have the biggest challenge when it comes to pricing toners. It will be interesting to see where that goes.
I will post the full chart of toning grades and their correlated scores and emojis in a minute.
As if you don't have enough going on while at Long Beach.... but cool, I look forward to it whenever you have the time. Thanks.
@The_Dinosaur_Man said:
This is a neat concept and I hope it stays true to generations of coin collecting, dealing, etc.
I think that instead of user-uploaded photographs, the app should work with a phone's camera and flashlight to generate its own high quality images for analysis. TrueViews are great representations of coins, but I find that they are sometimes better looking than the actual coins.
This is an interesting concept to explore. I think that it can be fleshed out more in the future to understand luster, but the usability of the camera and lighting conditions differs from person to person and negates our stabilization problem, hence why I was using trueviews before.
Thank you for the insights though! I’ll experiment with this a bit to see if it can’t work.
I thought about this some more after seeing your response. Both Android and iOS devices can take photos in panorama or even 3D modes. On screen instructions telling the user to rotate the coin or rotate the device relative to the coin could be used to generate the necessary data to create a 3D image in the app which could then communicate both luster and quality of strike. Any glare can also be removed through the same system and such a feature may actually enhance the processing of toning to make it more true to the coin in hand than to the TrueView.
@Joe_360 said:
Hi,
I receive an error message: Failed to get certification NGC match with provided input. Status_missing_result
Please provide guidance. Thank you
I have gotten a similar message twice during my testing. The first time was because I had selected the wrong TPG (PCGS or NGC) and the second time was because I had put in the incorrect cert number. Both worked when I corrected my input errors.
Idea: Adding a template of sorts for raw coins (grade, date etc) and be able to add them to your inventory. Plus, adding your own images for coins without a truview.
Type collector, mainly into Seated. Young Numismatist. Good BST transactions with: mirabela, OKCC, MICHAELDIXON
@Joe_360 said:
Hi,
I receive an error message: Failed to get certification NGC match with provided input. Status_missing_result
Please provide guidance. Thank you
I have gotten a similar message twice during my testing. The first time was because I had selected the wrong TPG (PCGS or NGC) and the second time was because I had put in the incorrect cert number. Both worked when I corrected my input errors.
Continuously receive error for NGC 6464724-003 XF 40 - Any help would be appreciated,
I looked up the coin, a 1890 CC VAM-4 and my coin is listed on their website. Thanks
@Joe_360 said:
Hi,
I receive an error message: Failed to get certification NGC match with provided input. Status_missing_result
Please provide guidance. Thank you
I have gotten a similar message twice during my testing. The first time was because I had selected the wrong TPG (PCGS or NGC) and the second time was because I had put in the incorrect cert number. Both worked when I corrected my input errors.
Continuously receive error for NGC 6464724-003 XF 40 - Any help would be appreciated,
I looked up the coin, a 1890 CC VAM-4 and my coin is listed on their website. Thanks
Fixing this error. I’ll take a look after the show. Likely the VAM throwing it off. Our issue, not yours.
@Joe_360 said:
Hi,
I receive an error message: Failed to get certification NGC match with provided input. Status_missing_result
Please provide guidance. Thank you
I have gotten a similar message twice during my testing. The first time was because I had selected the wrong TPG (PCGS or NGC) and the second time was because I had put in the incorrect cert number. Both worked when I corrected my input errors.
Continuously receive error for NGC 6464724-003 XF 40 - Any help would be appreciated,
I looked up the coin, a 1890 CC VAM-4 and my coin is listed on their website. Thanks
Hey joe, engineer here at pure, i've looked into your certificate and have pushed a fix for matching these top-100 cases as pcgs does not assign it. i have cross checked with auction listings and the spec numbers now match up thank you for reporting this to us and helping us to improve our matching system
@The_Dinosaur_Man said:
This is a neat concept and I hope it stays true to generations of coin collecting, dealing, etc.
I think that instead of user-uploaded photographs, the app should work with a phone's camera and flashlight to generate its own high quality images for analysis. TrueViews are great representations of coins, but I find that they are sometimes better looking than the actual coins.
This is an interesting concept to explore. I think that it can be fleshed out more in the future to understand luster, but the usability of the camera and lighting conditions differs from person to person and negates our stabilization problem, hence why I was using trueviews before.
Thank you for the insights though! I’ll experiment with this a bit to see if it can’t work.
I thought about this some more after seeing your response. Both Android and iOS devices can take photos in panorama or even 3D modes. On screen instructions telling the user to rotate the coin or rotate the device relative to the coin could be used to generate the necessary data to create a 3D image in the app which could then communicate both luster and quality of strike. Any glare can also be removed through the same system and such a feature may actually enhance the processing of toning to make it more true to the coin in hand than to the TrueView.
Thanks for the feedback. Some of these modules you’re talking about require them to be only internal in apples apps.
Maybe this could be a cool use for vision pro? I can test some stuff and get back to you on this
Tell me on setting your pricing, do you take into account for auctions, the buyer pays a premium, (15%-20%) probably has to also pay taxes, and (may) pay for shipping? So even if a coin purchase price was $1000, the buyer was willing to pay ~$200 more?
@Joe_360 said:
Tell me on setting your pricing, do you take into account for auctions, the buyer pays a premium, (15%-20%) probably has to also pay taxes, and (may) pay for shipping? So even if a coin purchase price was $1000, the buyer was willing to pay ~$200 more?
BP yes. Tax, no. It’s very hard to calculate what the final tax out the door price is since we don’t know the buyers state. I find the +juice price is typically where people find the estimate valuable. This would change if we start gathering private sales.
@fortuneCookie said: @treybenedict @TomB said:
I have gotten a similar message twice during my testing. The first time was because I had selected the wrong TPG (PCGS or NGC) and the second time was because I had put in the incorrect cert number. Both worked when I corrected my input errors.
Continuously receive error for NGC 6464724-003 XF 40 - Any help would be appreciated,
I looked up the coin, a 1890 CC VAM-4 and my coin is listed on their website. Thanks
>
Hey joe, engineer here at pure, i've looked into your certificate and have pushed a fix for matching these top-100 cases as pcgs does not assign it. i have cross checked with auction listings and the spec numbers now match up thank you for reporting this to us and helping us to improve our matching system
Hi Cookie,
The VAM-4 is now working but you'll have to refresh the database because it's only using data back to 2014. See photo. The current value is too low (even the gray-sheet states higher) Let me know what you find and/or when to check again. Thanks for the support, Joe
@Joe_360 said: @fortuneCookie said: @treybenedict @TomB said:
I have gotten a similar message twice during my testing. The first time was because I had selected the wrong TPG (PCGS or NGC) and the second time was because I had put in the incorrect cert number. Both worked when I corrected my input errors.
Continuously receive error for NGC 6464724-003 XF 40 - Any help would be appreciated,
I looked up the coin, a 1890 CC VAM-4 and my coin is listed on their website. Thanks
>
Hey joe, engineer here at pure, i've looked into your certificate and have pushed a fix for matching these top-100 cases as pcgs does not assign it. i have cross checked with auction listings and the spec numbers now match up thank you for reporting this to us and helping us to improve our matching system
Hi Cookie,
The VAM-4 is now working but you'll have to refresh the database because it's only using data back to 2014. See photo. The current value is too low (even the gray-sheet states higher) Let me know what you find and/or when to check again. Thanks for the support, Joe
This will be adjusted when present value is implemented in the update.
@keyman64 said: @treybenedict
It looks like inventory is sorted by denomination. It would be cool to sort by year. I wanted to just look at dimes so I tried 10c in search and it did not return anything so I am guessing the search feature might work for Cert number? Not sure.
I checked the documentation out to see if there was a glossary for the icons when you do a color analysis. There’s a T-Rex so I am guessing that’s for monster toned and then there’s a CD/DVD image and I was curious about that one. I entered an 1812 50c I have in VF25 that is of course worn and kinda dark so I wanted to see what it would show for that and it showed a crescent moon…,maybe meaning dark? I saw a yellow star used as well. Do you have a list of all the icons used and their intended meaning?
I see the artificial toning flags do not seem to be in place right now so I guess you are still fine tuning that?
Neat product so far. It will be interesting when you can toggle between letter grades and numerical grades but I think it would be better to have the option to display them both at the same time. That way you have the ability to see the number but it immediately puts it into context with the letter grade and you don’t have to switch.
Really neat app. I think you will have the biggest challenge when it comes to pricing toners. It will be interesting to see where that goes.
I will post the full chart of toning grades and their correlated scores and emojis in a minute.
I had trouble manually entering in the cert number of my new NGC coin yesterday at the Long Beach show yesterday when I was trying to research it prior to purchasing it. It kept giving me error messages no matter what I tried. But after purchasing it and scanning it in, it went in just fine. Only the pricing was way off. The scarcity of this coin, and lack of auction results, was throwing the pricing off. Here’s the coin
I was able to use the matrix scan to do multiple slabbed coins at once through the dealers display cases, but one of the dealers gave me a funny look when I did so so I didn’t keep doing that. I think they will have to get used to this when the app takes off and they will be less suspicious.
It worked really good at doing the toning analysis of some monster toners in the dealers display cases too. For those, I did just a quick scan of just the one coin and then did the toning analysis after I walked away from their booth. The dealers didn’t get suspicious when I did it to just the one toned coin at a time, I think they just assumed I was taking a picture of the toning and they are already used to people wanting to do that.
@keyman64 said: @treybenedict
It looks like inventory is sorted by denomination. It would be cool to sort by year. I wanted to just look at dimes so I tried 10c in search and it did not return anything so I am guessing the search feature might work for Cert number? Not sure.
I checked the documentation out to see if there was a glossary for the icons when you do a color analysis. There’s a T-Rex so I am guessing that’s for monster toned and then there’s a CD/DVD image and I was curious about that one. I entered an 1812 50c I have in VF25 that is of course worn and kinda dark so I wanted to see what it would show for that and it showed a crescent moon…,maybe meaning dark? I saw a yellow star used as well. Do you have a list of all the icons used and their intended meaning?
I see the artificial toning flags do not seem to be in place right now so I guess you are still fine tuning that?
Neat product so far. It will be interesting when you can toggle between letter grades and numerical grades but I think it would be better to have the option to display them both at the same time. That way you have the ability to see the number but it immediately puts it into context with the letter grade and you don’t have to switch.
Really neat app. I think you will have the biggest challenge when it comes to pricing toners. It will be interesting to see where that goes.
I will post the full chart of toning grades and their correlated scores and emojis in a minute.
Here you are!
Updating Coming Soon, will post the change log in a bit.
Note: These "bins" are created by the model and are susceptible to change.
@Mr_Spud said:
I had trouble manually entering in the cert number of my new NGC coin yesterday at the Long Beach show yesterday when I was trying to research it prior to purchasing it. It kept giving me error messages no matter what I tried. But after purchasing it and scanning it in, it went in just fine. Only the pricing was way off. The scarcity of this coin, and lack of auction results, was throwing the pricing off. Here’s the coin
I was able to use the matrix scan to do multiple slabbed coins at once through the dealers display cases, but one of the dealers gave me a funny look when I did so so I didn’t keep doing that. I think they will have to get used to this when the app takes off and they will be less suspicious.
It worked really good at doing the toning analysis of some monster toners in the dealers display cases too. For those, I did just a quick scan of just the one coin and then did the toning analysis after I walked away from their booth. The dealers didn’t get suspicious when I did it to just the one toned coin at a time, I think they just assumed I was taking a picture of the toning and they are already used to people wanting to do that.
This specific coin will be another one that will be good for when the present value pricing is integrated. We are working on this right now and will have more information in a future update.
I'm glad to hear about the Matrix Scan as well as the Toning! The new update has segmented toning for Obverse & Reverse which provides scores for both analysis results.
@keyman64 said: @treybenedict
It looks like inventory is sorted by denomination. It would be cool to sort by year. I wanted to just look at dimes so I tried 10c in search and it did not return anything so I am guessing the search feature might work for Cert number? Not sure.
I checked the documentation out to see if there was a glossary for the icons when you do a color analysis. There’s a T-Rex so I am guessing that’s for monster toned and then there’s a CD/DVD image and I was curious about that one. I entered an 1812 50c I have in VF25 that is of course worn and kinda dark so I wanted to see what it would show for that and it showed a crescent moon…,maybe meaning dark? I saw a yellow star used as well. Do you have a list of all the icons used and their intended meaning?
I see the artificial toning flags do not seem to be in place right now so I guess you are still fine tuning that?
Neat product so far. It will be interesting when you can toggle between letter grades and numerical grades but I think it would be better to have the option to display them both at the same time. That way you have the ability to see the number but it immediately puts it into context with the letter grade and you don’t have to switch.
Really neat app. I think you will have the biggest challenge when it comes to pricing toners. It will be interesting to see where that goes.
I will post the full chart of toning grades and their correlated scores and emojis in a minute.
Here you are!
Updating Coming Soon, will post the change log in a bit.
Note: These "bins" are created by the model and are susceptible to change.
@keyman64 said: @treybenedict
It looks like inventory is sorted by denomination. It would be cool to sort by year. I wanted to just look at dimes so I tried 10c in search and it did not return anything so I am guessing the search feature might work for Cert number? Not sure.
I checked the documentation out to see if there was a glossary for the icons when you do a color analysis. There’s a T-Rex so I am guessing that’s for monster toned and then there’s a CD/DVD image and I was curious about that one. I entered an 1812 50c I have in VF25 that is of course worn and kinda dark so I wanted to see what it would show for that and it showed a crescent moon…,maybe meaning dark? I saw a yellow star used as well. Do you have a list of all the icons used and their intended meaning?
I see the artificial toning flags do not seem to be in place right now so I guess you are still fine tuning that?
Neat product so far. It will be interesting when you can toggle between letter grades and numerical grades but I think it would be better to have the option to display them both at the same time. That way you have the ability to see the number but it immediately puts it into context with the letter grade and you don’t have to switch.
Really neat app. I think you will have the biggest challenge when it comes to pricing toners. It will be interesting to see where that goes.
I will post the full chart of toning grades and their correlated scores and emojis in a minute.
Here you are!
Updating Coming Soon, will post the change log in a bit.
Note: These "bins" are created by the model and are susceptible to change.
Hey Dan, thanks for the response! Really appreciate these insights as well.
I think that the pure estimate is conservative. I understand that it’s likely below what most people typically pay for their coins at shows or in private sales, however I wanted to be a good baseline for users when looking into purchasing their items.
.
Previously I had questioned/asked what the Pure estimate was supposed to represent:
"Is it a prediction of what that same coin would sell for if put into an auction today? Does it represent a dealer wholesale, retail or what one might be able to sell it for to a dealer, on their own via eBay or other?"
With the above response "a good baseline for users when looking into purchasing their items" has it been determined what the Pure estimate is representing?
Also what is 'when future value is incorporated' going to be doing?
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023
Hey Dan, thanks for the response! Really appreciate these insights as well.
I think that the pure estimate is conservative. I understand that it’s likely below what most people typically pay for their coins at shows or in private sales, however I wanted to be a good baseline for users when looking into purchasing their items.
.
Previously I had questioned/asked what the Pure estimate was supposed to represent:
"Is it a prediction of what that same coin would sell for if put into an auction today? Does it represent a dealer wholesale, retail or what one might be able to sell it for to a dealer, on their own via eBay or other?"
With the above response "a good baseline for users when looking into purchasing their items" has it been determined what the Pure estimate is representing?
Also what is 'when future value is incorporated' going to be doing?
Future value/Present Value creates an index for alike coins in the series and tracks multiple grades, services, dates and varieties to see how they change over time. Very common in economic theory to give a nominal and a real value, similar application here.
As for the pure estimate, a larger more in depth post is coming to describe and explain more around the background of how it is derived and what it estimates.
Comments
We set the sales limit to pull 5 of the most recent sales.
Would you guys like to see more?
I think bumping to 7 recent for each service would be good. Maybe 10?
Looking to hear feedback and can push a hot fix.
Probably!
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I agree. Toning Pricing will reflect the scarcity per series/date when we implement that update. (2 ish weeks I’d say)
The app now appears to read at least some Canadian coins and also reads at least some US clad coinage. You may want to update the wording on the app to reflect that clad coins can be scored, as well.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Indeed. Will update that. Batching all these fixes into one update so you guys don’t have to hit the App Store multiples times.
Glad your getting the bugs fixed before the android version 😀
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I normally stay away from this stuff but will throw some stuff (and opinions) out. Will I get blasted. Oh poor me.
@treybenedict
I can see this will be long post - sorry.
Early in my career my boss said to me after a meeting (summarized) - be careful how you use data (or data is used - in this case it was coupon testing). I believe this can be useful in this case for both the program and program user.
I don't have access to the program (samsung phone) so I don't know if it defines what this Pure Estimate is. To clarify PCGS defines there price guide here:
https://www.pcgs.com/prices
And CDN has some information here:
https://www.greysheet.com/how-does-cdn-greysheet-cpg-determine-pricing
Legend auction when giving an auction estimates defines their estimates as (summarized) Hammer and estimated dealer retail (their numismatics estimate).
With these definitions one can then better determine how and/or if they want to use them.
The point is that this Pure estimate I believe needs to have a (clear) definition of what it is and hopefully limitations stated. So from reading some other posts/thread it appears to be an estimate based off of auction results. Somewhere I think I recall trey saying no other dealer information or stuff being used. But after saying it is based off auction results only (assuming I am correct with that) I believe it needs to clarify what the estimate is. Is it a prediction of what that same coin would sell for if put into an auction today? Does it represent a dealer wholesale, retail or what one might be able to sell it for to a dealer, on their own via eBay or other? Then I would also think there should be some disclaimers about high end versus low end for the grade and such. Also how the estimate could change with time (if more data became available). Anyway the point is - the more well defined the Pure estimate is, then the better off the user 'should' be. Again my opinion and not a statement of fact.
Some words here about some of the above examples that some forum member have provided. Thanks as again I have no access.
The ones previously in this thread appear to have limited data versus say some generic Morgan or gold. I think these (generic) would work better simply due to more data. The more limited the data I believe the more caution that should be exercised.
Also when I am reviewing a potential purchase I will often view the previous auction lot. Some I will throw out due to them being 'ugly' or perhaps not applicable otherwise (see below).
Looking at @DeplorableDan example and the one for the $5 1836. Going to PCGS auction prices realized and sorting for AU58 only:
https://www.pcgs.com/auctionprices/details/1836-ms/8174
I want to make note of what to do for varieties. This is a fairly good example and can be a 'thing' for Bust halves and Overton and other series. In this example the coins slabbed with a variety designation (765228 and 765235) are not being used for the pricing. However, if one clicks on the Stack auction for the $4560 on Aug 2022 (which is being included in the program auction results) it can be seen that it is being advertised as a HM-1 rarity 6.
So what to do with the varieties that are slabbed as a variety and have a different coin number. The auction house will often identify the variety if it is more rare (better results) and on some even if it is not. So should the same coin variety that has been slabbed as a variety be included. Sometimes yes but maybe not if it is a rare variety and skews to the high side. But then it is included if it is in a normal slab coin number and identified by the auction house in the listing as a variety. Treating the same variety two ways.
Also from the @DeplorableDan list, I am not a fan of using data when it is 'older' auction data. Now when is auction data 'older'? Good question and it will definitely vary. Some of this variance can be due to how the recent market has been overall or in a particular series. If the market has be somewhat stable, then auction data can be older. Recent times the market has not been as stable. There have bee noticeable trends (many upward) since Covid and data just a few years old is outdated for some series but the program appears to have no cutoff due to date of auction. It appears some old data can 'pull down' some estimates. These auction results are not like analyzing a group of test results because the auction results can be time sensitive and not applicable.
Another one to point out is the one @Zoins asked about the 50c 1964 and:
"Very interesting. This looks like a huge price drop from 2005 which bears investigation."
A short investigation using coinfacts and pcgs auction prices realized reveals this is the old (and in my opinion outdated - see above) auction lot. While it is slabbed as a E14516 it is listed in the pcgs APR as a 6706 and also is showing up in this programs data. This is a little related to the variety thing but in this case it is an error coin showing up as a baseline coin number (even though in this case it is slabbed as an error but in the database as a baseline coin).
https://www.pcgs.com/auctionprices/details/1964-ms/6706
https://coins.ha.com/itm/errors/undated-50c-kennedy-half-dollar-struck-25-off-center-au58-pcgs/a/366-11020.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0
One other item semi-related to the above varieties and errors and stuff, it the low pop coins that are top pop or tied for (or similar). These can get distorted values initially. Made up example: A coin is pop 1/0 or 2/0 and comes to auction and goes for a high value. Then as time goes by that coin becomes a pop 9/0 or maybe even a 8/1. That is many more show up or 'have been made' (some might be crackouts though). That initial auction sale at this point should be suspect. If there are other more recent auctions, then maybe skip that first one. If none, then be aware that things might have changed. Don't know how to account for this but perhaps stated in the definition of what the Pure estimate represents.
There is probably more but as I stated initially, this would seem to work much better for coins with more auction records. Some or much of this stuff would get 'washed out' so to say with more data.
The color stuff. Oh to much to type out for that.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023
No matter the program, there will be bugs
We will try to test and mitigate as much as we can!
Maybe they could use a Ricko Blast White grade
True. For these, it would be interesting to have a grade scale measuring degree of luster remaining so stripped coins that have been dipped too many times can be identified.
Thank you for this amazing feedback. I really appreciate you taking the time to be able to share your insights as it helps us grow as a startup and help cater to what users want.
I totally agree with making documentation about the Pure Estimate. I think having clearly defined features for transparency purposes is very important to our success in the industry with the collector. Currently, we are only trying to provide factual insights through the use of statistics and machine learning. However, as you said it is very important for there to be full data sets to be able to give actionable insights for all coins.
We are trying to tackle the data problem in two ways:
This process is going to take some time to get set up. The current infrastructure for coins is no short of antiquated, and quite fragmented across services and needed some sort of centralization just to be able to get information in one place.
By no means is it perfect, and we hope to keep taking user feedback into account so we can help your daily process of collecting, buying & selling!
Sounds interesting. Would like to see the app compatible with Android phones as well.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Will there be the ability to use photos other than TrueViews planned in the future?
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
Yep. I'm in the android camp as well.
Looks interesting right now, but, no iphone, so this dog can't hunt....
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Cant wait to see future modifications to the pricing data, trey. I was able to add the Kellogg $20 manually, so that worked fine. I think when you code it to extrapolate data based on the neighbor coins, we'll be cooking with gas.
The other thing i'm wondering is if you could add a feature where the collector inputs the price they paid for the coin, similar to the PCGS set registry app. Right now, the app tells you the value of the collection based on the apps estimate which is drawn from publicly available comps. I think I can speak for most collectors when I say that if I paid "X" for my collection, I don't want the app to tell me that my collection is only worth (.7)X.
By adding this feature, perhaps the app could even absorb the data input by the collector, and use that to help with the index for a given series. Auction comps are only the tip of the iceberg, and often times represent the low end of what one might pay for a coin. All of the private sales don't get recorded anywhere, and as we know not all collectors like bidding in auctions. If a coin commonly sells in auction for $3,000, theres a good chance that the collector might have bought the coin from a dealer who had to mark it up 10-20%.
In regards the the pricing transparency, I think it is a great idea to have disclosures that tell you exactly what the price estimate represents- retail, wholesale, etc. Maybe even a Kelley Blue Book approach - When you look up your vehicle it gives you several options for pricing. Sell to a private party, trade in to a dealer, etc. Maybe the app could do something similar where it gives 2 different price tabs? One being an optimistic retail price in todays market, and the other being a "trade in" or "sell to a dealer" price? Excuse my ramblings but I figured id throw some ideas at you.
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Yes, we will be adding this in. First on manual approval so the dimensions and specs fit correctly.
There will be options to use Obv/Rev or just a trueview sized photo.
They can be zoomed for max quality as well. Setting up the image storage buckets in glacier is already complete, it’s just a switch we have to turn on.
Looks like a fun app so far! As an Android user, I'll just sit back, sip on some tequila and wait for that version.
Will there be an option in the app to analyze non TrueView photos? There are lots of us who take really good quality photos of coins - and quite a few them don't have TrueViews.
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
Yes. They’ll have to meet certain qualifications however for our storage purposes. I explained a bit more as to our idea on self-serve photos in the comment above.
It gets a little more tricky with matching photos and keeping usability on the model when new outside factors are added in.
Likely will be sooner than Android when we push a web versioning!
@treybenedict
It looks like inventory is sorted by denomination. It would be cool to sort by year. I wanted to just look at dimes so I tried 10c in search and it did not return anything so I am guessing the search feature might work for Cert number? Not sure.
I checked the documentation out to see if there was a glossary for the icons when you do a color analysis. There’s a T-Rex so I am guessing that’s for monster toned and then there’s a CD/DVD image and I was curious about that one. I entered an 1812 50c I have in VF25 that is of course worn and kinda dark so I wanted to see what it would show for that and it showed a crescent moon…,maybe meaning dark? I saw a yellow star used as well. Do you have a list of all the icons used and their intended meaning?
I see the artificial toning flags do not seem to be in place right now so I guess you are still fine tuning that?
Neat product so far. It will be interesting when you can toggle between letter grades and numerical grades but I think it would be better to have the option to display them both at the same time. That way you have the ability to see the number but it immediately puts it into context with the letter grade and you don’t have to switch.
Really neat app. I think you will have the biggest challenge when it comes to pricing toners. It will be interesting to see where that goes.
https://greatcollections.com/Collections/1120/The-Keyman64-Mercury-Dime-Collection/2024-07-07
A very basic question...it looks like these price estimates are intended to be full retail. Do you have any plans to model wholesale prices at all?
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
This is a neat concept and I hope it stays true to generations of coin collecting, dealing, etc.
I think that instead of user-uploaded photographs, the app should work with a phone's camera and flashlight to generate its own high quality images for analysis. TrueViews are great representations of coins, but I find that they are sometimes better looking than the actual coins.
Custom album maker and numismatic photographer, see my portfolio here: (http://www.donahuenumismatics.com/).
Hey @treybenedict I thought this comment/question was good to try to expand upon. Hopefully I can write this out clearly (as I fail at that often).
So on the pulling the 5 most recent sales - I want to expand on my previous comment about the varieties. There are numerous things that can influence an auction result. When I do my own deeper price estimates I will go to the pcgs APR and then click on each auction result to view each of the recent auction lots. I want to eliminate the ones that I feel are not applicable.
So when the program pulls the 5 most recent sales it is not clear (to me) what that will represent.
At this point I will note some things that can influence those auction sales. As previously noted a (rarer) variety (or error) identified by the auction house, of course toning, an old slab -especially the early ngc - black, regency or the very early pcgs, sometimes I think for moderns the labels or signed labels, perhaps a counter-stamp or similar on some coin types... and others I know I am forgetting. Of course there will almost always be the high end for the grade and low end but that is part of all of it.
So when the program pulls the 5 most recent sales and if they are all 'basic' mix of high end to low end then this sounds like a good mix of data points. However, if the 5 most recent sales have some rare variety, wow 'toner' or some other particular that causes a high (or sometimes low) auction value, then I would question how that is influencing the Pure estimate. As I previously noted when doing independently I throw these out.
Hope that is clear?
I am assuming the program will not be able to 'view' the auction information and sort out these A-typical results. If it can, then great but so far it appears not. A couple of thoughts on this.
Identify this in the information describing what the Pure estimate is. That is that it pull the 5 most recent and might contain some A-typical sales.
Also could there be a limit put on the auction values where the program would identify the suspect auction sale and ask the user to investigate? One potential method might be that any individual auction sale that is 100% (or pick another value) above the average or 50% (or pick another value) below the average would be identified for review. Perhaps a button could be added to where the user could eliminate these from the program calculation and re-calculate. This might have more problems but just a thought.
On the question of 5 or 7 or 10 most recent sales. I think this is dependent upon how many applicable sales are available. If it is a coin and grade with a lot of sales within a recent time period, then yes add more. But if expanding the number of sales will drive it back to sales that happened years ago, then those additional 'old' data points might actually hurt the accuracy of the data.
On the age of the data points or auction sales that are used in the Pure estimate. Could there be an option to set a limit or date as to how far back the user wants to go for auction results? Also as part of the program output, could it list the most recent and oldest auction sales dates that it is using?
One other thing on the variety. If a user has a coin that is slabbed as a variety (say a bust half with an Overton number), then it will not have the basic coin number. Example 50c 1813 is pcgs #6103 but if it has the variety attribution of O-102 added it will be pcgs #39460. So I think the program would then go looking for #39460 that the user input which might have limited data. Could there be an option to include the general/basic 1813 #6103 data information if the user opted for it.
And one more. I know at HA I can do some searches looking for 6103 or 39460 or O-102 but not so confident how well this works. However, this is one way I can sometimes find some of the O-102 or 39460 data (example only).
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023
Responding to some posts in a minute just got back from Long Beach day 1.
Thanks to all who came up and had kind words and insights!
This is an interesting concept to explore. I think that it can be fleshed out more in the future to understand luster, but the usability of the camera and lighting conditions differs from person to person and negates our stabilization problem, hence why I was using trueviews before.
Thank you for the insights though! I’ll experiment with this a bit to see if it can’t work.
Thanks so much for leaving this comment! It’s very helpful for me.
Inventory search will be updated to full search next update. You can query by date, denom, grade, service, cert etc. Currently only search for date is included as it was easy to launch with. For sure tweaking this a bit more.
It is sorted by denom first, then date. So 1855 10C comes before 1853 25C etc.
I will post the full chart of toning grades and their correlated scores and emojis in a minute.
AT flags are not in place since all trueviews are deemed market acceptable and I do not want to contradict the word of our hosts.
We will test some user experience demos with the toning scores and grades. I really appreciate all the insights though these are are so very helpful!
Totally understand. Thank you for leaving the time to respond to my question as well with such a great answer.
I agree, I think that having both the base number and the variety to be seen is very applicable. I think that we can also push out the “outliers” that are affecting the pure price estimate. We still want to display those for the user to be able to look at, but as you said some may be very rare holders, monster toners etc.
We can also dynamically push more sales based upon availability I think this could be a good idea for more common coins to get a more solid price.
Another feature I was going to add was a non-cert lookup for a coin. Basically by industry number, or natural language that can show just sales based on the queried coin.
Hey Dan, thanks for the response! Really appreciate these insights as well.
I think that the pure estimate is conservative. I understand that it’s likely below what most people typically pay for their coins at shows or in private sales, however I wanted to be a good baseline for users when looking into purchasing their items.
As for tracking private sales data, we have some plans around this in the future. Having users input their buy price is valid if there’s attached records of the sale. If that sale is marketplace verified it would be very valuable to present value of the pure estimate.
There’s definitely more work to be done, but I will try to push as many updates to get it as accurate as possible!
It looks very interesting! Can you make the app available for non-US IOS users?
Yes, what country are you in? I'm already adding in Australia for our Next Update.
As if you don't have enough going on while at Long Beach.... but cool, I look forward to it whenever you have the time. Thanks.
https://greatcollections.com/Collections/1120/The-Keyman64-Mercury-Dime-Collection/2024-07-07
I thought about this some more after seeing your response. Both Android and iOS devices can take photos in panorama or even 3D modes. On screen instructions telling the user to rotate the coin or rotate the device relative to the coin could be used to generate the necessary data to create a 3D image in the app which could then communicate both luster and quality of strike. Any glare can also be removed through the same system and such a feature may actually enhance the processing of toning to make it more true to the coin in hand than to the TrueView.
Custom album maker and numismatic photographer, see my portfolio here: (http://www.donahuenumismatics.com/).
Hi,
I receive an error message: Failed to get certification NGC match with provided input. Status_missing_result
Please provide guidance. Thank you
I have gotten a similar message twice during my testing. The first time was because I had selected the wrong TPG (PCGS or NGC) and the second time was because I had put in the incorrect cert number. Both worked when I corrected my input errors.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Idea: Adding a template of sorts for raw coins (grade, date etc) and be able to add them to your inventory. Plus, adding your own images for coins without a truview.
Type collector, mainly into Seated. Young Numismatist. Good BST transactions with: mirabela, OKCC, MICHAELDIXON
Continuously receive error for NGC 6464724-003 XF 40 - Any help would be appreciated,
I looked up the coin, a 1890 CC VAM-4 and my coin is listed on their website. Thanks
Fixing this error. I’ll take a look after the show. Likely the VAM throwing it off. Our issue, not yours.
Hey joe, engineer here at pure, i've looked into your certificate and have pushed a fix for matching these top-100 cases as pcgs does not assign it. i have cross checked with auction listings and the spec numbers now match up thank you for reporting this to us and helping us to improve our matching system
Thanks for the feedback. Some of these modules you’re talking about require them to be only internal in apples apps.
Maybe this could be a cool use for vision pro? I can test some stuff and get back to you on this
Tell me on setting your pricing, do you take into account for auctions, the buyer pays a premium, (15%-20%) probably has to also pay taxes, and (may) pay for shipping? So even if a coin purchase price was $1000, the buyer was willing to pay ~$200 more?
BP yes. Tax, no. It’s very hard to calculate what the final tax out the door price is since we don’t know the buyers state. I find the +juice price is typically where people find the estimate valuable. This would change if we start gathering private sales.
@fortuneCookie said:
@treybenedict
@TomB said:
I have gotten a similar message twice during my testing. The first time was because I had selected the wrong TPG (PCGS or NGC) and the second time was because I had put in the incorrect cert number. Both worked when I corrected my input errors.
I looked up the coin, a 1890 CC VAM-4 and my coin is listed on their website. Thanks
>
Hey joe, engineer here at pure, i've looked into your certificate and have pushed a fix for matching these top-100 cases as pcgs does not assign it. i have cross checked with auction listings and the spec numbers now match up thank you for reporting this to us and helping us to improve our matching system
Hi Cookie,
The VAM-4 is now working but you'll have to refresh the database because it's only using data back to 2014. See photo. The current value is too low (even the gray-sheet states higher) Let me know what you find and/or when to check again. Thanks for the support, Joe
This will be adjusted when present value is implemented in the update.
https://greatcollections.com/Collections/1120/The-Keyman64-Mercury-Dime-Collection/2024-07-07
I had trouble manually entering in the cert number of my new NGC coin yesterday at the Long Beach show yesterday when I was trying to research it prior to purchasing it. It kept giving me error messages no matter what I tried. But after purchasing it and scanning it in, it went in just fine. Only the pricing was way off. The scarcity of this coin, and lack of auction results, was throwing the pricing off. Here’s the coin
I was able to use the matrix scan to do multiple slabbed coins at once through the dealers display cases, but one of the dealers gave me a funny look when I did so so I didn’t keep doing that. I think they will have to get used to this when the app takes off and they will be less suspicious.
It worked really good at doing the toning analysis of some monster toners in the dealers display cases too. For those, I did just a quick scan of just the one coin and then did the toning analysis after I walked away from their booth. The dealers didn’t get suspicious when I did it to just the one toned coin at a time, I think they just assumed I was taking a picture of the toning and they are already used to people wanting to do that.
Mr_Spud
Here you are!
Updating Coming Soon, will post the change log in a bit.
Note: These "bins" are created by the model and are susceptible to change.
This specific coin will be another one that will be good for when the present value pricing is integrated. We are working on this right now and will have more information in a future update.
I'm glad to hear about the Matrix Scan as well as the Toning! The new update has segmented toning for Obverse & Reverse which provides scores for both analysis results.
Thanks so much for the feedback.
No wonder why I can't earn a D on any coin I list!
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
There's no D's at Berkeley
.
Previously I had questioned/asked what the Pure estimate was supposed to represent:
"Is it a prediction of what that same coin would sell for if put into an auction today? Does it represent a dealer wholesale, retail or what one might be able to sell it for to a dealer, on their own via eBay or other?"
With the above response "a good baseline for users when looking into purchasing their items" has it been determined what the Pure estimate is representing?
Also what is 'when future value is incorporated' going to be doing?
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023
Future value/Present Value creates an index for alike coins in the series and tracks multiple grades, services, dates and varieties to see how they change over time. Very common in economic theory to give a nominal and a real value, similar application here.
As for the pure estimate, a larger more in depth post is coming to describe and explain more around the background of how it is derived and what it estimates.
Thanks!