Is it possible to save people from themselves, or should we let them learn?
2windy2fish
Posts: 833 ✭✭✭✭✭
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2windy2fish
Posts: 833 ✭✭✭✭✭
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It will never end.
Sucks that someones out a grand for a $2 coin.
Successful BST transactions with....Coinslave87, ChrisH821, Walkerguy21D, SanctionII.......................Received "You Suck" award 02/18/23
Looks like another seller @burfle23 needs to put on the watch list.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?item=275796113675&rt=nc&_ssn=grerya76&LH_Sold=1&LH_Complete=1
Read the description. It says it all.
Sometimes people have to learn for themselves.
Martin
Yes, i agree…rather pathetic i think, kinda hard to fault the seller
The seller is calling these key date coins without saying they are copies unless you read the description and then they hype them up as “museum quality” reproductions. So they aren’t exactly being up front transparent to what they are actually selling. You can fault them for that.
Mr_Spud
Since it doesn't say "COPY" on the coin, isn't that illegal?
Punish thieves -
If it was made before the Hobby Protection Act of 1973, it's legal.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Some people just can't be saved.
Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM
It's not even a good fake.
While this is true there are many who can. I bought a California cameo Morgan after having many many of them and thought it was nice. I'd never seen one before. I never knew they could be done so well. I've never seen anything like it before.
You can bet the next time I see one that I will know what it is.
You can't blame the seller if they didn't know but if they did and allowed the transaction to complete well that says something about them.
Both party's might be wrong but whose the winner and who's the loser?
Is it possible this coin was shill bid to that level knowing a sucker was on the hook?
The buyer should be told they paid to much. I don't think that seller in good conscience should let that buyer walk away without telling them they may be mistaken.
It would just be the right thing to do. If they said "that's okay I still want it" then it's on them.
Once they find out what it really is that could be one less collector. I think that sucks.
It's just my opinion.
Sometimes people have to much money and a lesson is in order.
If you want to play this deep in the game, you'd better know what you're doing. Otherwise, you won't be playing for long.
Also sold this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/275796162649?hash=item4036bb7859:g:etsAAOSwp6NkOvFU&nma=true&si=wFo5xj4RAoNRDuxsvMmKliUlmck%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
To the OP's question, it is possible to help folks with junk like this and many of us spend some time each day having listings removed. But we can't save everyone, just ones we see. Unfortunately a bad initial purchase can sour someone enough to give up on the Hobby and that would be a shame.
It is worth the effort to try and save people from making mistakes. We cannot save them all. Cheers, RickO
I would think that. given the Item Specifics, the buyer would have some recourse for a SNAD since it states values that do not apply to the item sold despite the seller's description. Tough lesson for someone though and I don't like the negative impact on the hobby.
K
Neither, but but an effort is noble.
“We have met the enemy and he is us”.
I had a riding partner that used to say “if you don’t tell them how stupid they are, how will they ever know?”
BHNC #248 … 130 and counting.
I would imagine the buyer very unwittingly will be happy with their purchase….until….they try to sell it
http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title15-chapter48&edition=prelim
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
It’s a genuine reproduction. What could go wrong? Is that much of this stuff really sold?
You see something like it on TV. One of the items is a “1909-O half eagle layered in genuine 24 K gold! These were made to sell for $39.95, but for this pre-sale TV offer, you can get one for only $9.95!”
How many saps are drawn to this?
A slightly more legitimate game is “One pound of Morgan Silver Dollars, guaranteed to be in collector grade Very Good condition with fully readable dates and mint marks.” All the while they are showing you a Mint State coin that probably grades MS-65. They don’t tell you the price. You have to call. It’s got to be well over $500 for a 16 or 17 junky coins.
If people care to learn, there are plenty of places to find quality information. This wasn't always true, but it is now.
The quest for more understanding lead me to this place, and I've gone from numismatic idiot, second class to enough knowledge to be right much of the time.
Just a link to my 50 Coin Week articles...
https://coinweek.com/?s=Jack+D.+Young+counterfeits
On and on it goes..................................
Pete
Greed…buyers have to learn the hard hard. If the coin isn’t holdered for key dates, the seller and the coin are both frauds.
Personally, I still don't understand why somebody would buy a key date coin, or expensive coin, that has not already been certified by a major TPGS.
There are many new collectors who don't realized how prevalent counterfeit coins are in the hobby. These new collectors also don't realize how many cleaned, tooled, ATed, repaired, etc coins there are in the marketplace. If they did, most of them wouldn't collect coins.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
eBay sells life vests, too. Save yourselves.
That statement hurts. I've submitted many key dates that were authentic and genuine. I lost money and made money in this process, due to issues with coins. I've sold keys with problems, raw. But full disclosure is not fraud , nor is it greedy.
I don't think it's fraud to have raw key dates for sale. And incidentally , I've reluctantly cracked key date coins that I submitted....for buyers who insist their coins are raw. Always a caveat.
This was the response I received from seller weeks ago when I confronted.
It’s not our opinion that they are all cast, some maybe but well done & some are good high quality reproductions which I’ve put in the description. These are very hard to find even as high end reproductions.
Regards, Greg
I reported all of the seller's coins for being counterfeit.
Agreed. There is nothing wrong with selling coins raw, key date or otherwise. I should not be forced to spend $35 to slab a coin to gain $0 in value...or even $34 in value. If you don't want to buy raw coins, then don't. It is the exact opposite of fraudulent for a buyer and seller to willingly engage in commerce on a raw coin.
Experience can be our best teacher (in most cases)
Don't help them, it's their own fault.
You can't really help them.
Years ago I was at a country coin auction sitting next to a lawyer I knew casually from a local BM. There were a number of key date Lincoln fakes in the auction. He bought one. Then he was bidding on another. I quietly whispered to him that it was fake. He GLARED at me.
When he won it, for below catalogue, he turned to me and said, that's $500!!!
He bought a 3rd one.
Then he sent them in and they all came back fake. He was furious. He went back to the auction house, threatened legal action, etc.
Ever since then, I just sit quietly and let them buy the fakes if they want. They are more likely to get mad at you for trying to tell them than they are to listen.
It is a sad truth about human nature: people do not learn from other people's mistakes, only their own.
At a similar country auction about 25 years ago I pointed out to the auctioneer/business owner that I believed the 1799 large cent in the auction to be an altered non genuine coin. I was on good terms with him and his wife, and when that lot came up, he announced that he was informed the coin could be an alteration and not authentic, so buyer beware.
That corroded low grade pos STILL brought $1100.
Of course there are caveats. Dealer-client relationships are totally different. Time and trust have developed. Ebay shit stain scams like this are fraud. Look at the misleading headline: 1896-S Barber quarter dollar Low-mintage, key date!
No it is not a "key date", it is a F>>>ing cheap replica.
I disagree wholeheartedly on the key dates and grading. Grading a coin costs about $30.00. If you are selling to the general public and are selling a commonly counterfeited or higher priced coin (lets say $1,000 or more) and you promote a coin without TPG, then what that tells the world is that you KNOW that the coin is less than advertised or else it would be in a TPG that does not require the seller's subjective descriptions or grading of the coin.
You don't holder 1896-S Barber quarters with AU details? You just sell it unholdered? That $35 is too much to spend? What high value key dates have you offered for sale that you felt spending $35.00 was not worth your time? What high value key date coin can you think of that would not have more value holdered and professionally authenticated vs raw? Did you offer these unholdered key date coins that are commonly counterfeited on an auction site? I would be curious to know.
No one is "forcing" you to spend anything. It is about your reputation as a seller. If you have trust with a buyer coming into your shop and you stand by your grading and authenticity of a coin, that is different.
one thing i learned is to let people fall flat on their faces from their errors they make how else are they going to learn?
1997-present
On something of this caliber, if genuine, the grading fee would be chump change compared to the price difference caused by security in the coin’s certification by PCGS or NGC.
Get a 96-S Barber 25c in PCGS AU, crack it out, go to a big show, and try selling it to a dealer for AU money. Good luck!
"You can't get just one gun." "You can't get just one tattoo." "You can't get just one 1796 Draped Bust Large Cent."
Sometimes people hear what they want to hear.... So, an 1896s Barber quarter is a rare date just not the coin he's holding.
I didn't mention any specific coin. But I have sold many crappy key or semi-key days coins in the $100 to $200 range raw because adding $35 and 6 months does not add any value to the coin. If you don't want to buy it, don't. But how dare you impugn my integrity. If I list a coin as a Fair details SVDB and sell it accordingly, that is COMPLETELY and totally ethical and honest.
For a 96-S in AU, yes. How about an 1877 Indian in Fair details? I gain nothing by the investment of time and money getting it graded because I can sell it as is at very near the slabbed price.
Many collectors are lost to the hobby forever after they discover that they were ripped-off by someone who sold them a counterfeit rare coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@PerryHall your comment is spot on. Can you imagine how much stronger this hobby would be?
Some would say that we'd have more competition for a limited number of rare coins.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Let them learn since we learn best from our mistakes.
Sure, I get it. Coins in the $100-$300 range equates to a 10%+ cost to holder. LOL, I wasn't impunging your dignity. I have already clarified that a dealer to client relationship is different because there is time and trust and the dealer will back up their coin. Did you miss that part? Did you ignore it in your rush to be offended? Obviously coins in a low price point have different metrics and considerations.
Here is what I know 100%. If an experience dealer who sells holdered and raw coins, consistently submits coins to the TPGs and then offers a raw coin that is a coin with a high price point, key date, or both, then I know 100% that the dealer KNOWS that grading the coin will bring less money than trying to pawn it off to a less informed buyer. That is an unscrupulus dealer and one that I will never buy from.
True. What I find for myself is that dealers lose my business forever. I keep collecting, but not from dealers who play stupid fraud games.
making mistakes is part of the learning process one must go though in order not to make those errors again, yes advice can be given but will the person take that advice or not depends on them , we all have made errors just part of being human but will one learn from those errors it's all up to the person not us
and then you get the chasing after huge $$$ types no matter what is said they will jump head on onto messes cause they think they know better and they may hit huge profits
1997-present
Well, that is what we are talking about here. Glad you agree.