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Shooting more coins. GTG of this Indian Cent. Grade revealed.

ironmanl63ironmanl63 Posts: 1,971 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited January 29, 2023 10:44AM in U.S. Coin Forum

Snowing out and I am shooting stuff today. If you guys get tired of me posting this stuff let me know. Otherwise I will keep posting different coins as I reshoot them with proper white balance.

MS66RD.


«1

Comments

  • DeplorableDanDeplorableDan Posts: 2,527 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Concur with @Walkerguy21D , I’m at 65rd but based on @P0CKETCHANGE’s last IHC thread, I’m leaving room for myself to be surprised. I never get tired of GTG threads, it really helps to sharpen my skills with different series that I don’t collect, so keep ‘em comin

  • FlyingAlFlyingAl Posts: 2,845 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I like it at 64+RD. Looks like some crazy luster might be there in hand.

    Young Numismatist, Coin Photographer.

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,472 ✭✭✭✭✭

    MS-65 Red

    You have to remember when the coin is magnified to the size of a tea saucer, every flaw is exaggerated.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • MWallaceMWallace Posts: 3,849 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Beautiful coin. I'm with the 65RDers.

  • gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭✭✭

    64 RD

    Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,007 ✭✭✭✭✭

    66RD

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • MaywoodMaywood Posts: 1,884 ✭✭✭✭✭

    MS66.

  • Project NumismaticsProject Numismatics Posts: 1,339 ✭✭✭✭✭

    First thought was 66RD. Great coin and great photo regardless of grade. What does your lighting set up look like?

  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,246 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think safely an MS65RD, wouldn't be terribly surprized if it hit MS66RD. Beautiful Indian regardless. Great photo also.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • pursuitoflibertypursuitofliberty Posts: 6,588 ✭✭✭✭✭

    First thought was 65RD ... second thought was maybe 65+?

    Nice looker, for sure.


    “We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”

    Todd - BHNC #242
  • ironmanl63ironmanl63 Posts: 1,971 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @J2035 said:
    First thought was 66RD. Great coin and great photo regardless of grade. What does your lighting set up look like?

    I use 2 Jansjo lights that are easy to move around. They are also diffused.

  • spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,488 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Seems too nice for 65 imo... I'd say 66rd. Nice pictures too... These seem to vex me a bit for some reason trying to capture them.

  • ironmanl63ironmanl63 Posts: 1,971 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have had the camera and lights for over 5 years. Just recently I have been much happier with my photos. Many different issues to work thru. Hopefully in another 5 years they will be even better.

  • ashelandasheland Posts: 22,673 ✭✭✭✭✭

    66RD. Beautiful!

  • DollarAfterDollarDollarAfterDollar Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭✭✭

    MS 65 + Rd.

    If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
  • goldengolden Posts: 9,040 ✭✭✭✭✭

    65+ Rd.

  • OldIndianNutKaseOldIndianNutKase Posts: 2,700 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It looks like Questionable Color (.91) to me. Nice coin but dipped.

  • JimnightJimnight Posts: 10,805 ✭✭✭✭✭

    65 RD

  • 1Mike11Mike1 Posts: 4,414 ✭✭✭✭✭

    66

    "May the silver waves that bear you heavenward be filled with love’s whisperings"

    "A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
  • bolivarshagnastybolivarshagnasty Posts: 7,348 ✭✭✭✭✭

    66rd

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,061 ✭✭✭✭✭

    65 shot 65+ RD

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks like 65RD... Such a great picture too.... Looking again.. it may grade higher...The picture sure is a 70. Cheers, RickO

  • AvocetAvocet Posts: 226 ✭✭✭✭

    66 RD-- Very nice!

  • ElKevvoElKevvo Posts: 4,061 ✭✭✭✭✭

    66 RD...and I never get tired of high quality coin pictures! Helps me learn...

    K

    ANA LM
  • ironmanl63ironmanl63 Posts: 1,971 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @OldIndianNutKase said:
    It looks like Questionable Color (.91) to me. Nice coin but dipped.

    What about the coin makes you think questionable color? I ask not to challenge but to learn. If I had to guess why you came to that conclusion I would say that there is not enough variation in color. Would that be correct or do you see something else?

    When you say dipped what do you think it was dipped in? Wouldn't dipping remove luster and make the coin have an unnatural color that is pretty easy to spot?

    I appreciate your feedback as I have zero experience with conserving or dipping coins and look forward to reading your opinions.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,007 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ironmanl63 said:

    @OldIndianNutKase said:
    It looks like Questionable Color (.91) to me. Nice coin but dipped.

    What about the coin makes you think questionable color? I ask not to challenge but to learn. If I had to guess why you came to that conclusion I would say that there is not enough variation in color. Would that be correct or do you see something else?

    When you say dipped what do you think it was dipped in? Wouldn't dipping remove luster and make the coin have an unnatural color that is pretty easy to spot?

    I appreciate your feedback as I have zero experience with conserving or dipping coins and look forward to reading your opinions.

    Many fully original RD copper coins display uniform color. Additionally, many dipped ones still exhibit plentiful luster. But yes, many, if not most of them also end up with unnatural color.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • OldIndianNutKaseOldIndianNutKase Posts: 2,700 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2023 9:10AM

    @ironmanl63 said:

    @OldIndianNutKase said:
    It looks like Questionable Color (.91) to me. Nice coin but dipped.

    What about the coin makes you think questionable color? I ask not to challenge but to learn. If I had to guess why you came to that conclusion I would say that there is not enough variation in color. Would that be correct or do you see something else?

    When you say dipped what do you think it was dipped in? Wouldn't dipping remove luster and make the coin have an unnatural color that is pretty easy to spot?

    I appreciate your feedback as I have zero experience with conserving or dipping coins and look forward to reading your opinions.

    I have purchased a number of RAW old red copper. They have all graded .91 questionable color. RB coins get dipped because the value of the coin as RD is very significantly higher.

    This coin is too gold and lacking any orange overtones, which is original mint color. The fields also show a little too much texture. Following is an example of an 1898 IHC that is 67.5 RD (not mine).

    OINK

  • metalmeistermetalmeister Posts: 4,584 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice! 66 Rd.

    email: ccacollectibles@yahoo.com

    100% Positive BST transactions
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,007 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Following is an example of an 1898 IHC that is 67.5 RD (not mine).

    OINK

    The example you posted appears to display mellowed color, particularly on the reverse, and looks very close to (if not) RB.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • CoinscratchCoinscratch Posts: 7,888 ✭✭✭✭✭

    65RB
    How do you know when you have found the proper white balance?
    I know that sounds really stupid but my background always seems to come out with a blue or pink hue.

  • ironmanl63ironmanl63 Posts: 1,971 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for the feedback! The coin grades 66RD. It is in a gen 4.5 holder which was in use from 2011 to Jan of 2013. If I had to bet I would bet the coin looks the same today as it did when it was slabbed. So I think it is stable. I love the look of the coin above. Thanks for guessing and the comments on the photography! I am having fun reshooting my coins. More to come.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,007 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Coinscratch said:
    65RB
    How do you know when you have found the proper white balance?
    I know that sounds really stupid but my background always seems to come out with a blue or pink hue.

    Are you talking about the coin at the top of this thread? It couldn’t be much more RD in appearance.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • ironmanl63ironmanl63 Posts: 1,971 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Coinscratch said:
    65RB
    How do you know when you have found the proper white balance?
    I know that sounds really stupid but my background always seems to come out with a blue or pink hue.

    In a previous thread @robec posted instructions on how to set white balance for the conditions you are shooting in. I followed them and have been much happier with the results. So whether or not it is the proper white balance it gives a much truer outcome.

  • OldIndianNutKaseOldIndianNutKase Posts: 2,700 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2023 1:47PM

    @MFeld Are you talking about the coin at the top of this thread? It couldn’t be much more RD in appearance.

    The 67.5 RD coin that I previously posted possess a rational evolution of a mint state coin after 125 years. Your attempt to suggest it might be RB is not well thought out. The OP coin has a very unnatural gold color that is not reflective of a naturally toned coin. PCGS has graded these coins as original RD, but they are not. As an example, you will not find IHC's in Stewart Blay's collection that have a "gold" color, they all have a very high content of original mint color and luster. Please note the substantial premium for Blay's Red Copper........it is ORIGINAL RD color. I estimate that at least 50% of the RD copper on Coin Facts is not original RD color, which explains the premium of Blay's coins over PCGS values. Truly RD copper is much more rare than indicated on the PCGS POP report.

  • ironmanl63ironmanl63 Posts: 1,971 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @OldIndianNutKase said:
    @MFeld Are you talking about the coin at the top of this thread? It couldn’t be much more RD in appearance.

    The 67.5 RD coin that I previously posted possess a rational evolution of a mint state coin after 125 years. Your attempt to suggest it might be RB is not well thought out. The OP coin has a very unnatural gold color that is not reflective of a naturally toned coin. PCGS has graded these coins as original RD, but they are not. As an example, you will not find IHC's in Stewart Blay's collection that have a "gold" color, they all have a very high content of original mint color and luster. Please note the substantial premium for Blay's Red Copper........it is ORIGINAL RD color. I estimate that at least 50% of the RD copper on Coin Facts is not original RD color, which explains the premium of Blay's coins over PCGS values.

    Did the ones that you bought raw which graded 91 look like my coin? If so I am surprised that not even one straight graded. I appreciate your input and I am going to look at Blay's collection in the registry. I will report back on what I see.

  • CoinscratchCoinscratch Posts: 7,888 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2023 1:58PM

    @MFeld said:

    @Coinscratch said:
    65RB
    How do you know when you have found the proper white balance?
    I know that sounds really stupid but my background always seems to come out with a blue or pink hue.

    Are you talking about the coin at the top of this thread? It couldn’t be much more RD in appearance.

    Yes, and I’m not versed in these by any stretch. I just know I’ve seen some graded RB when in fact they look almost red. To me this one looks golden light brown but it could be my screen resolution.

  • CoinscratchCoinscratch Posts: 7,888 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ironmanl63 said:

    @Coinscratch said:
    65RB
    How do you know when you have found the proper white balance?
    I know that sounds really stupid but my background always seems to come out with a blue or pink hue.

    In a previous thread @robec posted instructions on how to set white balance for the conditions you are shooting in. I followed them and have been much happier with the results. So whether or not it is the proper white balance it gives a much truer outcome.

    He would be a good one to ask those Rosie’s are beautiful, didn’t realize he was shooting them.

  • OldIndianNutKaseOldIndianNutKase Posts: 2,700 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2023 2:04PM

    This is an example of one of my RAW coins that graded 91. Perhaps someone can tell me what is QC????

    My point is that IHC's do not degrade from original red to gold. They will degrade to RD with some brown, or blue or a number of different copper oxide compound colors. See IHC PR coins which display fantastic colors, but none of them are gold.

    OINK

  • ironmanl63ironmanl63 Posts: 1,971 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Coinscratch said:

    @MFeld said:

    @Coinscratch said:
    65RB
    How do you know when you have found the proper white balance?
    I know that sounds really stupid but my background always seems to come out with a blue or pink hue.

    Are you talking about the coin at the top of this thread? It couldn’t be much more RD in appearance.

    Yes, and I’m not versed in these by any stretch. I just know I’ve seen some graded RB when in fact they look almost red. To me this one looks golden light brown but it could be my screen resolution.

    There is zero brown look in hand. The coin does have a golden orange look that is quite attractive to me.

  • ironmanl63ironmanl63 Posts: 1,971 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @OldIndianNutKase said:
    @MFeld Are you talking about the coin at the top of this thread? It couldn’t be much more RD in appearance.

    The 67.5 RD coin that I previously posted possess a rational evolution of a mint state coin after 125 years. Your attempt to suggest it might be RB is not well thought out. The OP coin has a very unnatural gold color that is not reflective of a naturally toned coin. PCGS has graded these coins as original RD, but they are not. As an example, you will not find IHC's in Stewart Blay's collection that have a "gold" color, they all have a very high content of original mint color and luster. Please note the substantial premium for Blay's Red Copper........it is ORIGINAL RD color. I estimate that at least 50% of the RD copper on Coin Facts is not original RD color, which explains the premium of Blay's coins over PCGS values. Truly RD copper is much more rare than indicated on the PCGS POP report.

    I looked at Red Coppers coins that have photos in the set registry. There are a few that have the same golden orange look as my coin. Others have a very different look. I am not saying this coin belongs with those coins. But to my eye it is not a RB coin that was dipped. I like getting the different views and opinions.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,007 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @OldIndianNutKase said:

    The 67.5 RD coin that I previously posted possess a rational evolution of a mint state coin after 125 years. Your attempt to suggest it might be RB is not well thought out. The OP coin has a very unnatural gold color that is not reflective of a naturally toned coin. PCGS has graded these coins as original RD, but they are not. As an example, you will not find IHC's in Stewart Blay's collection that have a "gold" color, they all have a very high content of original mint color and luster. Please note the substantial premium for Blay's Red Copper........it is ORIGINAL RD color. I estimate that at least 50% of the RD copper on Coin Facts is not original RD color, which explains the premium of Blay's coins over PCGS values. Truly RD copper is much more rare than indicated on the PCGS POP report.
    >

    A “rational evolution of a mint state coin after 125 years” doesn’t have anything to do with whether the coin you posted merits a RD (or a different) color designation. After that amount of time, copper coins can be naturally fully RD, fully BN or anywhere in between.

    Please explain why my suggestion that the coin you posted might be RB wasn’t “well thought out”? I made my assessment based on the significant mellowing of color apparent in its images - nothing more and nothing less.

    https://us.v-cdn.net/6027503/uploads/editor/qa/0cdr3dyk8b7d.jpg

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • CoinscratchCoinscratch Posts: 7,888 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ironmanl63 said:

    @Coinscratch said:

    @MFeld said:

    @Coinscratch said:
    65RB
    How do you know when you have found the proper white balance?
    I know that sounds really stupid but my background always seems to come out with a blue or pink hue.

    Are you talking about the coin at the top of this thread? It couldn’t be much more RD in appearance.

    Yes, and I’m not versed in these by any stretch. I just know I’ve seen some graded RB when in fact they look almost red. To me this one looks golden light brown but it could be my screen resolution.

    There is zero brown look in hand. The coin does have a golden orange look that is quite attractive to me.

    I never would’ve graded it RB, is it possible your exposure is too dark.
    Brighten that little sucker up.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,007 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ironmanl63 said:

    @OldIndianNutKase said:
    @MFeld Are you talking about the coin at the top of this thread? It couldn’t be much more RD in appearance.

    The 67.5 RD coin that I previously posted possess a rational evolution of a mint state coin after 125 years. Your attempt to suggest it might be RB is not well thought out. The OP coin has a very unnatural gold color that is not reflective of a naturally toned coin. PCGS has graded these coins as original RD, but they are not. As an example, you will not find IHC's in Stewart Blay's collection that have a "gold" color, they all have a very high content of original mint color and luster. Please note the substantial premium for Blay's Red Copper........it is ORIGINAL RD color. I estimate that at least 50% of the RD copper on Coin Facts is not original RD color, which explains the premium of Blay's coins over PCGS values. Truly RD copper is much more rare than indicated on the PCGS POP report.

    I looked at Red Coppers coins that have photos in the set registry. There are a few that have the same golden orange look as my coin. Others have a very different look. I am not saying this coin belongs with those coins. But to my eye it is not a RB coin that was dipped. I like getting the different views and opinions.

    Different dates can exhibit different color/shades of RD prior to mellowing.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • ironmanl63ironmanl63 Posts: 1,971 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @OldIndianNutKase said:
    This is an example of one of my RAW coins that graded 91. Perhaps someone can tell me what is QC????

    My point is that IHC's do not degrade from original red to gold. They will degrade to RD with some brown, or blue or a number of different copper oxide compound colors. See IHC PR coins which display fantastic colors, but none of them are gold.

    OINK

    I think your point is off in that it did not turn gold but was minted that way. There are many coins in Blays collection that have an original gold color. Not all Indians cents were orange at the time of minting. Some were a beautiful original gold color.

    To me I agree with the 91 on that coin. It has that pinkish orange look that comes with messing with a coin.

    I would also have to Disagree about the gold on Proof Indians. Some of the prettiest looking Proofs I have seen have a gold coloring to them.

  • ironmanl63ironmanl63 Posts: 1,971 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Heck the 1898 you posted above has some nice gold color to it!

  • CoinscratchCoinscratch Posts: 7,888 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Dagnammit 66RD was my first thought. Then I started reading all the responses and remembered how tight the coin gods are on Indians. So I started questioning the high points and eventually the color.

    But you have to admit these coins look flawless in 66/67. And of course with the help of the TrueView services :-)

  • OldIndianNutKaseOldIndianNutKase Posts: 2,700 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld Please explain why my suggestion that the coin you posted might be RB wasn’t “well thought out”? I made my assessment based on the significant mellowing of color apparent in its images - nothing more and nothing less.

    PCGS graded that coin as RD, and if you look at 1898 IHC cents on CoinFacts and apply your RB interpretation they could all be RB in the RD category. The gold "toning" of the OP coin is not a natural progression of copper toning and is probably due to a dip at some point in time. RD is very rare on coins over 100 years old........just go back to large cent RD POP on RD coins.......practically non-existant. BTW: I am suggesting that PCGS grading standards on RD copper are not objective. Perhaps you look to PCGS as the arbiter of all reality in determination of RD copper?

    OINK

  • OldIndianNutKaseOldIndianNutKase Posts: 2,700 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Prior to Stewart Blay's demise, I have had a few conversations with him on line and in person regarding Red Copper. I collect "blue" copper and when he asks if my blue copper is because of MS70, I reply that PCGS graded them. And when I ask him if is RD copper was ever dipped, he responded the same. I always knew that Stewart wanted the best possible ORIGINAL RD copper for his collection. And he knew that all RD coins certified by PCGS are not original RD.

    My opinion of RD copper comes not only from Blay, but also my knowledge of copper reactions with other elements. Copper can tone many colors, but gold does not seem to be on the list of possible reactives.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,007 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @OldIndianNutKase said:
    @MFeld Please explain why my suggestion that the coin you posted might be RB wasn’t “well thought out”? I made my assessment based on the significant mellowing of color apparent in its images - nothing more and nothing less.

    PCGS graded that coin as RD, and if you look at 1898 IHC cents on CoinFacts and apply your RB interpretation they could all be RB in the RD category. The gold "toning" of the OP coin is not a natural progression of copper toning and is probably due to a dip at some point in time. RD is very rare on coins over 100 years old........just go back to large cent RD POP on RD coins.......practically non-existant. BTW: I am suggesting that PCGS grading standards on RD copper are not objective. Perhaps you look to PCGS as the arbiter of all reality in determination of RD copper?

    OINK

    I don’t know what the CoinFacts 1898 cents look like in-hand. My comments on the color of the subject coin and the one you posted were based on the images provided, which is all I had to go by.

    I consider myself well versed with 100+ year-old copper coins of various types and colors, but feel free to continue to point me in the right direction. And no, I don’t consider PCGS or anyone else “the arbiter of all reality in determination of RD copper”.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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