@OldIndianNutKase said:
Prior to Stewart Blay's demise, I have had a few conversations with him on line and in person regarding Red Copper. I collect "blue" copper and when he asks if my blue copper is because of MS70, I reply that PCGS graded them. And when I ask him if is RD copper was ever dipped, he responded the same. I always knew that Stewart wanted the best possible ORIGINAL RD copper for his collection. And he knew that all RD coins certified by PCGS are not original RD.
My opinion of RD copper comes not only from Blay, but also my knowledge of copper reactions with other elements. Copper can tone many colors, but gold does not seem to be on the list of possible reactives.
Does copper ever look gold as soon as it is minted? I think it sometimes does depending on the mix of metals. I have no expertise that helps me form that opinion just what I have learned thru the years.
I am not saying it tones gold. I am saying that is the original color. Am I all wet thinking this?
@Coinscratch said:
65RB
How do you know when you have found the proper white balance?
I know that sounds really stupid but my background always seems to come out with a blue or pink hue.
In a previous thread @robec posted instructions on how to set white balance for the conditions you are shooting in. I followed them and have been much happier with the results. So whether or not it is the proper white balance it gives a much truer outcome.
He would be a good one to ask those Rosie’s are beautiful, didn’t realize he was shooting them.
I think you are referring to a different thread. The one I am taking about featured a Proof Barber no Rosies. He did not shoot it I did but in that thread he posted instructions on how to set a custom White balance for my camera. Helped a lot!
@OldIndianNutKase said:
Prior to Stewart Blay's demise, I have had a few conversations with him on line and in person regarding Red Copper. I collect "blue" copper and when he asks if my blue copper is because of MS70, I reply that PCGS graded them. And when I ask him if is RD copper was ever dipped, he responded the same. I always knew that Stewart wanted the best possible ORIGINAL RD copper for his collection. And he knew that all RD coins certified by PCGS are not original RD.
My opinion of RD copper comes not only from Blay, but also my knowledge of copper reactions with other elements. Copper can tone many colors, but gold does not seem to be on the list of possible reactives.
Does copper ever look gold as soon as it is minted? I think it sometimes does depending on the mix of metals. I have no expertise that helps me form that opinion just what I have learned thru the years.
I am not saying it tones gold. I am saying that is the original color. Am I all wet thinking this?
Yes, I believe that some copper coins look “gold” at the time they’re minted.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld An 1898 MS 66RD PCGS Value is $2750. If RB value is $675. The OP coin graded RD is $2750. but graded RB is only $675. The value of the OP coin is somewhere between 66RB and .91 Questionable Color. So why would anyone buy this coin for RD money when the downside is over $2000.?
I think your analysis assumes that PCGS grading is always 100% correct. Perfect for this forum. I just question the PCGS standard on RD/RB grading as it is way too loose on old RD copper.
@MFELD
Yes, I believe that some copper coins look “gold” at the time they’re minted.
Show me some pics Mark. I buy base copper all the time and it never looks gold. And even if bronze. Gold is a derivative that does not exist with copper natural toning. Show me some moderns that look gold after minting.
@OldIndianNutKase said: @MFeld An 1898 MS 66RD PCGS Value is $2750. If RB value is $675. The OP coin graded RD is $2750. but graded RB is only $675. The value of the OP coin is somewhere between 66RB and .91 Questionable Color. So why would anyone buy this coin for RD money when the downside is over $2000.?
I think your analysis assumes that PCGS grading is always 100% correct. Perfect for this forum. I just question the PCGS standard on RD/RB grading as it is way too loose on old RD copper.
You’re badly mistaken, as well as highly insulting, regarding what I assume about PCGS grading. I don’t think anyone’s grading is anywhere close to 100% correct and have never said anything to justify your conclusion.
In this very thread, I already opined that the “RD” coin you posted, looked like it could be “RB”. Then you proceeded to tell me “Your attempt to suggest it might be RB is not well thought out.”
Additionally, in reply to one of your other posts, I wrote that I didn’t consider PCGS or anyone else “the arbiter of all reality in determination of RD copper”. If you prefer to disbelieve what I say, that’s your prerogative, but I’m through trying to have a rational conversation with you.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@OldIndianNutKase said: @MFeld An 1898 MS 66RD PCGS Value is $2750. If RB value is $675. The OP coin graded RD is $2750. but graded RB is only $675. The value of the OP coin is somewhere between 66RB and .91 Questionable Color. So why would anyone buy this coin for RD money when the downside is over $2000.?
I think your analysis assumes that PCGS grading is always 100% correct. Perfect for this forum. I just question the PCGS standard on RD/RB grading as it is way too loose on old RD copper.
You are just positive this coin altered. I guess I must be really something because I paid red money for it. I enjoy the feedback but do not know how you can be so positive this coin is a POS. You may actually be right about this one but I don't think so. No hard feelings I asked for all opinions. I appreciate your honesty. I am going to send this to Rick Snow and see what he thinks. I will report the results. I actually have a dozen coins going to him for Photo Sealing this being one.
@OldIndianNutKase said: @MFELD
Yes, I believe that some copper coins look “gold” at the time they’re minted.
Show me some pics Mark. I buy base copper all the time and it never looks gold. And even if bronze. Gold is a derivative that does not exist with copper natural toning. Show me some moderns that look gold after minting.
@MFeld Please, I had no intention of insulting you, perhaps based upon your grade opinion on the OP coin.
However I do have issue with PCGS grading standards regarding RD copper standards. I am sorry that you do not question their standard. Probably not PC for you to do so?
When we discuss grade deflation, there can be no other less obvious than designation of RD on copper coins. Copper coins will always degrade over time. This is inevitable, especially for coins over 100 years old. We are trying to understand the natural progression of toning of copper (and bronze) over the last 100-200 years, But, please explain orange copper transitioning to gold.
@ironman163 I cannot tell you that your coin is altered. I do not think this coin is POS. IMO I just do not think this coin is original RD. But as long as it is, you can sell it as such and find a better example.
@OldIndianNutKase said: @ironman163 I cannot tell you that your coin is altered. I do not think this coin is POS. IMO I just do not think this coin is original RD. But as long as it is, you can sell it as such and find a better example.
Collecting RD old copper is not without risk,
OINK
I get that and you may be correct. I do truly appreciate the honest opinions. I have a fairly thick skin and even if you did think it was a POS I would be O.K. with that.
I think part of the issue here is that there are different nuances of “RD” and “gold”, so the terms are somewhat ambiguous. What one viewer describes as “RD”, another might call “gold”, “orange”, “golden-orange” or something else.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I find it quite fascinating that someone is able to say something is likely altered or questionable color based on one photo, when pcgs who has seen it in hand and up close, says it's red and not questionable. If it was a raw coin that would be one thing... not to say that pcgs is infallible as they are as proven by sending a coin multiple times can lead to differing opinions...
It's just weird. The fact that it's in a pcgs slab means it will sell again for red money. Or pcgs will eat their mistake. It's not that risky when you have a guarantee backing up the coin.
@OldIndianNutKase said:
This is an example of one of my RAW coins that graded 91. Perhaps someone can tell me what is QC????
My point is that IHC's do not degrade from original red to gold. They will degrade to RD with some brown, or blue or a number of different copper oxide compound colors. See IHC PR coins which display fantastic colors, but none of them are gold.
OINK
The surface color of this IHC looks like it’s peeling off in several places - above the headdress, around the lettering on the obverse and in a few other spots in the fields. I was taught that look is considered a potential red flag for AT - at least by ANA standards. But I haven’t seen it in hand and I’m not a copper expert.
@OldIndianNutKase said: @MFELD
Yes, I believe that some copper coins look “gold” at the time they’re minted.
Show me some pics Mark. I buy base copper all the time and it never looks gold. And even if bronze. Gold is a derivative that does not exist with copper natural toning. Show me some moderns that look gold after minting.
Perhaps the OP's coin is brass pattern?
This one
Oh my! You didn’t have to go and do that. Now there is a properly graded coin at 7+ PCGS doesn’t just hand out 68s, you have to earn them and that one has a couple flaws.
Anyway carry on.
Edit: That was not a dig on the OPs coin just an observation on something I do know 😂
@OldIndianNutKase said: @MFELD
Yes, I believe that some copper coins look “gold” at the time they’re minted.
Show me some pics Mark. I buy base copper all the time and it never looks gold. And even if bronze. Gold is a derivative that does not exist with copper natural toning. Show me some moderns that look gold after minting.
Perhaps the OP's coin is brass pattern?
This one
Oh my! You didn’t have to go and do that. Now there is a properly graded coin at 7+ PCGS doesn’t just hand out 68s, you have to earn them and that one has a couple flaws.
Anyway carry on.
@OldIndianNutKase said: @MFELD
Yes, I believe that some copper coins look “gold” at the time they’re minted.
Show me some pics Mark. I buy base copper all the time and it never looks gold. And even if bronze. Gold is a derivative that does not exist with copper natural toning. Show me some moderns that look gold after minting.
Perhaps the OP's coin is brass pattern?
This one
Oh my! You didn’t have to go and do that. Now there is a properly graded coin at 7+ PCGS doesn’t just hand out 68s, you have to earn them and that one has a couple flaws.
Anyway carry on.
@OldIndianNutKase said:
This is an example of one of my RAW coins that graded 91. Perhaps someone can tell me what is QC????
My point is that IHC's do not degrade from original red to gold. They will degrade to RD with some brown, or blue or a number of different copper oxide compound colors. See IHC PR coins which display fantastic colors, but none of them are gold.
OINK
I just noticed the lump on the serif of the t in cent. That explains why the color looks odd to me. Proofs are a different animal and much harder to capture the actual look in a photo. I take back my previous statement about this coins color. I was looking at it as a mint state coin.
It's just weird. The fact that it's in a pcgs slab means it will sell again for red money. Or pcgs will eat their mistake. It's not that risky when you have a guarantee backing up the coin.
PCGS does not guarantee color from about 5 years ago. PCGS also seems to grade coins without any original mint red color as RD if you review the coins in Coin Facts. Perhaps the gold color is "market acceptable" but let me say that it is not preferable with at least some collectors. IHC's did not leave the mint looking like they were struck in brass.
It's just weird. The fact that it's in a pcgs slab means it will sell again for red money. Or pcgs will eat their mistake. It's not that risky when you have a guarantee backing up the coin.
PCGS does not guarantee color from about 5 years ago. PCGS also seems to grade coins without any original mint red color as RD if you review the coins in Coin Facts. Perhaps the gold color is "market acceptable" but let me say that it is not preferable with at least some collectors. IHC's did not leave the mint looking like they were struck in brass.
OINK
Coinfacts is also chock full of photos that don't accurately reflect reality, or in hand looks all that well. I've seen a lot of truviews for my own coins that don't accurately reflect what you see in hand.
Still, even if they don't guarantee color, the market accepts that it is 'red' by their definition, and will almost universally accept it as such. A third party such as CAC may not, but the market will generally accept it. Thus it will usually pull the value that's on the label at sale or auction, leaving aside the obvious cases where it toned badly in the holder or some such making it less desirable to general collectors.
Not all collectors will accept all coins regardless of what any third party says, that's just a fact. No one is doubting or challenging that. Collecting is a very personal decision. Those that don't like certain coloration will avoid it regardless of what someone else thinks.
Comments
Does copper ever look gold as soon as it is minted? I think it sometimes does depending on the mix of metals. I have no expertise that helps me form that opinion just what I have learned thru the years.
I am not saying it tones gold. I am saying that is the original color. Am I all wet thinking this?
When did Stuart pass away?
PCGS graded them
I think you are referring to a different thread. The one I am taking about featured a Proof Barber no Rosies. He did not shoot it I did but in that thread he posted instructions on how to set a custom White balance for my camera. Helped a lot!
I’ll try to hunt it down later.
Very nice Indian by the way and can you give us a arm’s-length cell phone pic. Color vision
Yes, I believe that some copper coins look “gold” at the time they’re minted.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld An 1898 MS 66RD PCGS Value is $2750. If RB value is $675. The OP coin graded RD is $2750. but graded RB is only $675. The value of the OP coin is somewhere between 66RB and .91 Questionable Color. So why would anyone buy this coin for RD money when the downside is over $2000.?
I think your analysis assumes that PCGS grading is always 100% correct. Perfect for this forum. I just question the PCGS standard on RD/RB grading as it is way too loose on old RD copper.
@MFELD
Yes, I believe that some copper coins look “gold” at the time they’re minted.
Show me some pics Mark. I buy base copper all the time and it never looks gold. And even if bronze. Gold is a derivative that does not exist with copper natural toning. Show me some moderns that look gold after minting.
Perhaps the OP's coin is brass pattern?
You’re badly mistaken, as well as highly insulting, regarding what I assume about PCGS grading. I don’t think anyone’s grading is anywhere close to 100% correct and have never said anything to justify your conclusion.
In this very thread, I already opined that the “RD” coin you posted, looked like it could be “RB”. Then you proceeded to tell me “Your attempt to suggest it might be RB is not well thought out.”
Additionally, in reply to one of your other posts, I wrote that I didn’t consider PCGS or anyone else “the arbiter of all reality in determination of RD copper”. If you prefer to disbelieve what I say, that’s your prerogative, but I’m through trying to have a rational conversation with you.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
You are just positive this coin altered. I guess I must be really something because I paid red money for it. I enjoy the feedback but do not know how you can be so positive this coin is a POS. You may actually be right about this one but I don't think so. No hard feelings I asked for all opinions. I appreciate your honesty. I am going to send this to Rick Snow and see what he thinks. I will report the results. I actually have a dozen coins going to him for Photo Sealing this being one.
This one
@MFeld Please, I had no intention of insulting you, perhaps based upon your grade opinion on the OP coin.
However I do have issue with PCGS grading standards regarding RD copper standards. I am sorry that you do not question their standard. Probably not PC for you to do so?
When we discuss grade deflation, there can be no other less obvious than designation of RD on copper coins. Copper coins will always degrade over time. This is inevitable, especially for coins over 100 years old. We are trying to understand the natural progression of toning of copper (and bronze) over the last 100-200 years, But, please explain orange copper transitioning to gold.
@ironman163 I cannot tell you that your coin is altered. I do not think this coin is POS. IMO I just do not think this coin is original RD. But as long as it is, you can sell it as such and find a better example.
Collecting RD old copper is not without risk,
OINK
@OldIndianNutKase Do you not see any gold on Red Coppers Cents? I see a ton!
I get that and you may be correct. I do truly appreciate the honest opinions. I have a fairly thick skin and even if you did think it was a POS I would be O.K. with that.
I think part of the issue here is that there are different nuances of “RD” and “gold”, so the terms are somewhat ambiguous. What one viewer describes as “RD”, another might call “gold”, “orange”, “golden-orange” or something else.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I find it quite fascinating that someone is able to say something is likely altered or questionable color based on one photo, when pcgs who has seen it in hand and up close, says it's red and not questionable. If it was a raw coin that would be one thing... not to say that pcgs is infallible as they are as proven by sending a coin multiple times can lead to differing opinions...
It's just weird. The fact that it's in a pcgs slab means it will sell again for red money. Or pcgs will eat their mistake. It's not that risky when you have a guarantee backing up the coin.
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
The surface color of this IHC looks like it’s peeling off in several places - above the headdress, around the lettering on the obverse and in a few other spots in the fields. I was taught that look is considered a potential red flag for AT - at least by ANA standards. But I haven’t seen it in hand and I’m not a copper expert.
Agree with Mark. I have an 09 P in 5 RD with a sticker in an OGH, and this coin has cleaner surfaces than mine.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Oh my! You didn’t have to go and do that. Now there is a properly graded coin at 7+ PCGS doesn’t just hand out 68s, you have to earn them and that one has a couple flaws.
Anyway carry on.
Edit: That was not a dig on the OPs coin just an observation on something I do know 😂
This one in hand is amazing.
I know.
I just noticed the lump on the serif of the t in cent. That explains why the color looks odd to me. Proofs are a different animal and much harder to capture the actual look in a photo. I take back my previous statement about this coins color. I was looking at it as a mint state coin.
PCGS does not guarantee color from about 5 years ago. PCGS also seems to grade coins without any original mint red color as RD if you review the coins in Coin Facts. Perhaps the gold color is "market acceptable" but let me say that it is not preferable with at least some collectors. IHC's did not leave the mint looking like they were struck in brass.
OINK
Coinfacts is also chock full of photos that don't accurately reflect reality, or in hand looks all that well. I've seen a lot of truviews for my own coins that don't accurately reflect what you see in hand.
Still, even if they don't guarantee color, the market accepts that it is 'red' by their definition, and will almost universally accept it as such. A third party such as CAC may not, but the market will generally accept it. Thus it will usually pull the value that's on the label at sale or auction, leaving aside the obvious cases where it toned badly in the holder or some such making it less desirable to general collectors.
Not all collectors will accept all coins regardless of what any third party says, that's just a fact. No one is doubting or challenging that. Collecting is a very personal decision. Those that don't like certain coloration will avoid it regardless of what someone else thinks.
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin