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1797 Half Dime - A refreshing bath, some new plastic, 10 pt upgrade

I got a lot of good responses on another 1797 half dime thread and I thought the community would appreciate this one too. It's another 13-star LM-4. The first two images here are of an ANACS VF25 coin that sold on Heritage on January 9, 2008 for $8625. Note the white spot on the chin and the little scratch from the foot of L up to the dentils above I.

These second two images are of a PCGS VF35 coin, also from Heritage, that sold on May 28, 2008 (140 days after the sale above) for $15,525 ($6900 more than the price above). You'll note the white chin and the scratch from L to dentils. But you'll see some differences: she's a little less "contrasty" and a lot cleaner looking. The photography is different, yes, but she looks to have had a light bath. Note the reverse - letters A and T in STATES, and especially O in OF show a lot brighter now. Fair or foul?

New website: Groovycoins.com Capped Bust Half Dime registry set: Bikergeek CBHD LM Set

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Comments

  • BikergeekBikergeek Posts: 206 ✭✭✭✭

    Oh my... I see now the story doesn't end there. This coin was offered at Stacks in March 2018 (the PCGS slab now has a CAC sticker on it). It had a $17k reserve, which wasn't met. Then - perhaps tragically or wonderfully, depending on your perspective, it sold again at Heritage on 8/16/2018 for only $5760. What a wild ride!

    New website: Groovycoins.com Capped Bust Half Dime registry set: Bikergeek CBHD LM Set

  • CladiatorCladiator Posts: 17,919 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A PCGS VF35 CAC 1797 LM4 sold for less than $6K in 2018?

  • lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here are the images from HA on the above noted 2008 sale. HA images cropped from the holder are often much different than the ones showing the holder.
    https://coins.ha.com/itm/early-half-dimes/1797-h10c-13-stars-vf35-pcgs/a/1108-8.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0




    https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023

  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2023 9:59PM

    A 10 point grade change within VF is not all that unusual, especially from 2 different grading services.
    The grade standards within VF can be somewhat vague.

    The largest grade changes I recall on seated half dimes have been for attractive toned proofs.
    It's not unusual for them to go from PR-64 to PR-66.
    One could argue it is the graders following the market valuation, as attractive toning has become more highly valued.

  • RLSnapperRLSnapper Posts: 516 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I like the way it looked before the cleaning much better. Must have been a different doctor.

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,479 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sorry, I can’t understand why CAC would give that coin a sticker. The white spot probably occurred when the coin was cleaned or dipped and returned to an envelope for what would be long term storage, perhaps jammed into a box. I don’t view it as choice for the grade.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Definitely has had some medical assistance ;) Cheers, RickO

  • BStrauss3BStrauss3 Posts: 3,158 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:
    Sorry, I can’t understand why CAC would give that coin a sticker. The white spot probably occurred when the coin was cleaned or dipped and returned to an envelope for what would be long term storage, perhaps jammed into a box. I don’t view it as choice for the grade.

    CAC's definition is SOLID not CHOICE. If you divide into A/B/C, A/B get stickered, C do not.

    -----Burton
    ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
  • gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,425 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Now that there are at least 2 known doctored 1797 coins it should be fairly easy to figure out who bought, doctored and had these reslabbed.

    Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM

  • Pnies20Pnies20 Posts: 2,057 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 27, 2023 8:31AM

    A coin with some problems that has been stuck in an album or envelope for a while to mask them wouldn’t deter me from being a buyer if I liked the coin.

    This is especially true if it is rare.

    In my world, we call this perfuming the pig 🐷

    BHNC #248 … 108 and counting.

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not to my tastes.

    If I submitted a coin with a scratch like this one has on the neck, I'd expect to come back in a "details" holder.

  • Dave99BDave99B Posts: 8,354 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I hate coin doctors.

    Dave

    Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.
  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 27, 2023 4:07PM

    I don't see this as a doctored coin; the toning pattern seems the same.
    Just a different photo; lower contrast in the second set of photos.

  • BikergeekBikergeek Posts: 206 ✭✭✭✭

    @yosclimber I agree, it wasn't a "doctor" job--and the photography is a huge factor in the presentation. I do think it was gently dipped, and my best evidence for that is the dark contrasty toning on the letters on the reverse, that just isn't contrasty in the second set of 2008 pics. But the August 2018 pics seem to suggest that the coin is darkening in the slab. Look at the second T in STATES or the ICA in AMERICA. I haven't loaded this up in a photo editor and adjusted brightness/contrast, and so this isn't a hill I'd die on, but I'm still feeling like it got a refreshing bath back in 2008 (so I'm not changing the subject line!) heheh. 2018 pics from HA below.


    New website: Groovycoins.com Capped Bust Half Dime registry set: Bikergeek CBHD LM Set

  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 27, 2023 9:32PM


    Here's a side by side comparison of the reverses.
    I don't see much of a difference in the toning on T3 or ICA, but it's a judgement call.


    Here is an example of increasing the color contrast with Irfanview on the second photo.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,859 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 27, 2023 10:37PM

    Here's the current TrueView for this coin.

    Of note, Cert Verification doesn't link to either the Heritage or Stack's sale of this coin in a PCGS holder. Is there anyway to get these sales and the cert linked?

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,399 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That coin is greatly lacking in eye appeal and I wouldn't buy it unless the price was discounted to reflect this fact.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 8,670 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Any chance that discoloration is an improper alloy mix?

    BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall

  • CatbertCatbert Posts: 6,600 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks like Lady Liberty is wearing a mask. Really dislike the white blotch. Of course, I'm thankful it's survived all these years for someone to appreciate it.

    "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
  • BikergeekBikergeek Posts: 206 ✭✭✭✭

    OK, after sleeping on it- multiple times, including naps-I am willing to acknowledge that @yosclimber makes a pretty convincing case that the differences are all in the photography. Which is a bit of an epiphany for me! I mean, I "interpret" pictures from different sources; my favorite dealers have their style, and of course, PCGS TrueViews have their style. (Hint: the coin's not that red.) But seeing all those images and how they accentuate (or hide) the toning and marks with exposure and lighting differences, well, it's educational.

    Still not a pretty coin but anything that has survived that long deserves my respect.

    New website: Groovycoins.com Capped Bust Half Dime registry set: Bikergeek CBHD LM Set

  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,416 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:
    Sorry, I can’t understand why CAC would give that coin a sticker. The white spot probably occurred when the coin was cleaned or dipped and returned to an envelope for what would be long term storage, perhaps jammed into a box. I don’t view it as choice for the grade.

    This. I've been saying forever that CAC stickers any coin on which they are willing to make an offer. Usually, it means that it's nice for the grade. In this case, it's because the coin is very rare and they are willing to make an offer on it because of this.

    I would / do not want a coin like this one in my collection.

    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."

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