@J2035 said:
I would really like to see a greater variety of boxes - how about 3 blast white morgans graded by our host with an occasional key or semi-key date (CC?) thrown in? Or a Morgan, Peace and Eisenhower with an occasional seated liberty included? Possibilities are endless.
Your prayers have 'almost' been answered. Here is a 6 pack of modern Morgans and Peace in NGCX 10 holders! All blast white and all semi-key!!
I’d like to see classic coins - not 2021 Morgans. Over time, the vaultbox crowd can be steered toward classics just like dealers work to convert their bullion customers to classic (US Coins in Houston talks about this a bit in their podcasts). It’s about expanding the market.
This is about NGCX and marketing to the people who won't buy a 65 because that's a failing grade.
I'm all for boxes of different types, but I think you're missing the central marketing point here.
Mind you, that coin was listed early yesterday. My box was sent out with 2 day shipping, was expected yesterday afternoon, and is now delayed until Monday. I do find it a little strange how that particular coin, the same coin in the unboxing, was the FIRST vaultbox coin to go up on eBay bright and early Friday morning before most people got their boxes.
Ah ok, but still given this coin, first out on ebay before most boxes delivered, still fairly fishy and concerning..................
My post may have been unclear by my wording, but I was agreeing with you, strongly. I was emphasizing how strange it was for THAT coin to be listed so early when it was unlikely that most of the boxes had even been delivered yet.
Totally. In addition, does anyone know anything about kearneycc? Clearly a dealer, probably with some connection to PWCC, if not an alt for PWCC itself. Not just a rando who stumbled onto a "sample" coin that was supposed to either go back into a sealed box for random distribution to the masses, or be returned to VB.
@J2035 said:
I would really like to see a greater variety of boxes - how about 3 blast white morgans graded by our host with an occasional key or semi-key date (CC?) thrown in? Or a Morgan, Peace and Eisenhower with an occasional seated liberty included? Possibilities are endless.
Your prayers have 'almost' been answered. Here is a 6 pack of modern Morgans and Peace in NGCX 10 holders! All blast white and all semi-key!!
I’d like to see classic coins - not 2021 Morgans. Over time, the vaultbox crowd can be steered toward classics just like dealers work to convert their bullion customers to classic (US Coins in Houston talks about this a bit in their podcasts). It’s about expanding the market.
This is about NGCX and marketing to the people who won't buy a 65 because that's a failing grade.
I'm all for boxes of different types, but I think you're missing the central marketing point here.
I think you missed the point - over time, new modern collectors can be converted to collecting classics which expands the market.
Of course it’s not the point of the initial vaultbox and I never stated it was.
You seem to conflate NGCX and vaultbox - they aren’t the same thing. Vaultbox seems to be the source of all the buzz - not NGCX. Other companies will jump into the unboxing concept and could very well use PCGS or other TPG coins of any type.
Mind you, that coin was listed early yesterday. My box was sent out with 2 day shipping, was expected yesterday afternoon, and is now delayed until Monday. I do find it a little strange how that particular coin, the same coin in the unboxing, was the FIRST vaultbox coin to go up on eBay bright and early Friday morning before most people got their boxes.
Ah ok, but still given this coin, first out on ebay before most boxes delivered, still fairly fishy and concerning..................
My post may have been unclear by my wording, but I was agreeing with you, strongly. I was emphasizing how strange it was for THAT coin to be listed so early when it was unlikely that most of the boxes had even been delivered yet.
Totally. In addition, does anyone know anything about kearneycc? Clearly a dealer, probably with some connection to PWCC, if not an alt for PWCC itself. Not just a rando who stumbled onto a "sample" coin that was supposed to either go back into a sealed box for random distribution to the masses, or be returned to VB.
And PWCC is in Oregon. There has to be some connection. That exact coin was in an unboxing video shot in a PWCC vault and uploaded to YouTube less than two weeks ago, before the release date for the boxes.
That unboxing was later disclaimed by PWCC as follows:
"*Disclaimer: This was a promotional box provided to PWCC in partnership with VaultBox intended to replicate the opening experience. The coins opened in this promotion box are still available to be opened in the official distribution of VaultBox Series 1."
The coin is then mysteriously listed for sale on eBay by a Nebraska coin dealer two days after the boxes went on sale at VB, although there was apparently a pre-sale at PWCC. Lots of coincidences, none of which favor ordinary buyers.
Mind you, that coin was listed early yesterday. My box was sent out with 2 day shipping, was expected yesterday afternoon, and is now delayed until Monday. I do find it a little strange how that particular coin, the same coin in the unboxing, was the FIRST vaultbox coin to go up on eBay bright and early Friday morning before most people got their boxes.
Ah ok, but still given this coin, first out on ebay before most boxes delivered, still fairly fishy and concerning..................
My post may have been unclear by my wording, but I was agreeing with you, strongly. I was emphasizing how strange it was for THAT coin to be listed so early when it was unlikely that most of the boxes had even been delivered yet.
Totally. In addition, does anyone know anything about kearneycc? Clearly a dealer, probably with some connection to PWCC, if not an alt for PWCC itself. Not just a rando who stumbled onto a "sample" coin that was supposed to either go back into a sealed box for random distribution to the masses, or be returned to VB.
Purely based on where Kearny CC and PWCC are located it doesn't feel like they are somehow linked. At least that's my opinion.
Honestly, I really do like the idea of bringing the fun of box breaks to coins but at $600 it's not for me. The closest I'll come to gambling in our hobby is buying something raw and sending it in to get graded. With VaultBox, for sure there is some value above the intrinsic value of the coins themselves that comes from the excitement of getting the box and opening it up knowing that there is the possibility of a big score. How much to value that piece? It's purely up to each individual.
Mind you, that coin was listed early yesterday. My box was sent out with 2 day shipping, was expected yesterday afternoon, and is now delayed until Monday. I do find it a little strange how that particular coin, the same coin in the unboxing, was the FIRST vaultbox coin to go up on eBay bright and early Friday morning before most people got their boxes.
Ah ok, but still given this coin, first out on ebay before most boxes delivered, still fairly fishy and concerning..................
My post may have been unclear by my wording, but I was agreeing with you, strongly. I was emphasizing how strange it was for THAT coin to be listed so early when it was unlikely that most of the boxes had even been delivered yet.
Totally. In addition, does anyone know anything about kearneycc? Clearly a dealer, probably with some connection to PWCC, if not an alt for PWCC itself. Not just a rando who stumbled onto a "sample" coin that was supposed to either go back into a sealed box for random distribution to the masses, or be returned to VB.
And PWCC is in Oregon. There has to be some connection. That exact coin was in an unboxing video shot in a PWCC vault and uploaded to YouTube less than two weeks ago, before the release date for the boxes. And subsequently listed for sale on eBay by a Nebraska coin dealer two days after the boxes went on sale at VB, although there was apparently a pre-sale at PWCC. Lots of coincidences, none of which favor ordinary buyers.
I'm not seeing a clear connection. Minshull Trading-the ones who created the vault box idea-are out of California. So all three parties are in different locations. Maybe they are all part of the group invested into vault box or maybe PWCC sold the coin after unboxing it to a dealer they knew would pay the biggest premium.
Mind you, that coin was listed early yesterday. My box was sent out with 2 day shipping, was expected yesterday afternoon, and is now delayed until Monday. I do find it a little strange how that particular coin, the same coin in the unboxing, was the FIRST vaultbox coin to go up on eBay bright and early Friday morning before most people got their boxes.
Ah ok, but still given this coin, first out on ebay before most boxes delivered, still fairly fishy and concerning..................
My post may have been unclear by my wording, but I was agreeing with you, strongly. I was emphasizing how strange it was for THAT coin to be listed so early when it was unlikely that most of the boxes had even been delivered yet.
Totally. In addition, does anyone know anything about kearneycc? Clearly a dealer, probably with some connection to PWCC, if not an alt for PWCC itself. Not just a rando who stumbled onto a "sample" coin that was supposed to either go back into a sealed box for random distribution to the masses, or be returned to VB.
And PWCC is in Oregon. There has to be some connection. That exact coin was in an unboxing video shot in a PWCC vault and uploaded to YouTube less than two weeks ago, before the release date for the boxes. And subsequently listed for sale on eBay by a Nebraska coin dealer two days after the boxes went on sale at VB, although there was apparently a pre-sale at PWCC. Lots of coincidences, none of which favor ordinary buyers.
I'm not seeing a clear connection. Minshull Trading-the ones who created the vault box idea-are out of California. So all three parties are in different locations. Maybe they are all part of the group invested into vault box or maybe PWCC sold the coin after unboxing it to a dealer they knew would pay the biggest premium.
In either case, it would contradict their direct statement that those coins would be re boxed and mixed in with the others. Maybe I’ll leave a comment on their instagram and see if I get an answer.
@J2035 said:
I would really like to see a greater variety of boxes - how about 3 blast white morgans graded by our host with an occasional key or semi-key date (CC?) thrown in? Or a Morgan, Peace and Eisenhower with an occasional seated liberty included? Possibilities are endless.
Your prayers have 'almost' been answered. Here is a 6 pack of modern Morgans and Peace in NGCX 10 holders! All blast white and all semi-key!!
I’d like to see classic coins - not 2021 Morgans. Over time, the vaultbox crowd can be steered toward classics just like dealers work to convert their bullion customers to classic (US Coins in Houston talks about this a bit in their podcasts). It’s about expanding the market.
This is about NGCX and marketing to the people who won't buy a 65 because that's a failing grade.
I'm all for boxes of different types, but I think you're missing the central marketing point here.
I think you missed the point - over time, new modern collectors can be converted to collecting classics which expands the market.
Of course it’s not the point of the initial vaultbox and I never stated it was.
You seem to conflate NGCX and vaultbox - they aren’t the same thing. Vaultbox seems to be the source of all the buzz - not NGCX. Other companies will jump into the unboxing concept and could very well use PCGS or other TPG coins of any type.
Why do you think VaultBox is using NGCX graded eagles when NGC graded eagles exist? They are conflated in the marketing approach because of the target audience.
Yes, other companies could jump into the unboxing concept. However, I think it might fail if they are trying to market Sheldon scale coins to coin collectors or Sheldon scale coins to non-collectors. There is limited appeal of grab bags and mystery boxes among coin collectors (this thread is evidence) and non-collectors or, rather, collectors of other material are far more comfortable with the 10 scale than the Sheldon scale because all other collectibles are currently on a 10 or 100 scale.
It's a first-to-market approach. It is far more likely that this approach leads to grading other coins on the X scale than that this approach leads to pitching the Sheldon scale to people who still haven't been introduced to it.
Mind you, that coin was listed early yesterday. My box was sent out with 2 day shipping, was expected yesterday afternoon, and is now delayed until Monday. I do find it a little strange how that particular coin, the same coin in the unboxing, was the FIRST vaultbox coin to go up on eBay bright and early Friday morning before most people got their boxes.
Ah ok, but still given this coin, first out on ebay before most boxes delivered, still fairly fishy and concerning..................
My post may have been unclear by my wording, but I was agreeing with you, strongly. I was emphasizing how strange it was for THAT coin to be listed so early when it was unlikely that most of the boxes had even been delivered yet.
Totally. In addition, does anyone know anything about kearneycc? Clearly a dealer, probably with some connection to PWCC, if not an alt for PWCC itself. Not just a rando who stumbled onto a "sample" coin that was supposed to either go back into a sealed box for random distribution to the masses, or be returned to VB.
And PWCC is in Oregon. There has to be some connection. That exact coin was in an unboxing video shot in a PWCC vault and uploaded to YouTube less than two weeks ago, before the release date for the boxes. And subsequently listed for sale on eBay by a Nebraska coin dealer two days after the boxes went on sale at VB, although there was apparently a pre-sale at PWCC. Lots of coincidences, none of which favor ordinary buyers.
I'm not seeing a clear connection. Minshull Trading-the ones who created the vault box idea-are out of California. So all three parties are in different locations. Maybe they are all part of the group invested into vault box or maybe PWCC sold the coin after unboxing it to a dealer they knew would pay the biggest premium.
PWCC is the target audience. It need be no more of a connection than that.
Mind you, that coin was listed early yesterday. My box was sent out with 2 day shipping, was expected yesterday afternoon, and is now delayed until Monday. I do find it a little strange how that particular coin, the same coin in the unboxing, was the FIRST vaultbox coin to go up on eBay bright and early Friday morning before most people got their boxes.
Ah ok, but still given this coin, first out on ebay before most boxes delivered, still fairly fishy and concerning..................
My post may have been unclear by my wording, but I was agreeing with you, strongly. I was emphasizing how strange it was for THAT coin to be listed so early when it was unlikely that most of the boxes had even been delivered yet.
Totally. In addition, does anyone know anything about kearneycc? Clearly a dealer, probably with some connection to PWCC, if not an alt for PWCC itself. Not just a rando who stumbled onto a "sample" coin that was supposed to either go back into a sealed box for random distribution to the masses, or be returned to VB.
And PWCC is in Oregon. There has to be some connection. That exact coin was in an unboxing video shot in a PWCC vault and uploaded to YouTube less than two weeks ago, before the release date for the boxes. And subsequently listed for sale on eBay by a Nebraska coin dealer two days after the boxes went on sale at VB, although there was apparently a pre-sale at PWCC. Lots of coincidences, none of which favor ordinary buyers.
I'm not seeing a clear connection. Minshull Trading-the ones who created the vault box idea-are out of California. So all three parties are in different locations. Maybe they are all part of the group invested into vault box or maybe PWCC sold the coin after unboxing it to a dealer they knew would pay the biggest premium.
In either case, it would contradict their direct statement that those coins would be re boxed and mixed in with the others. Maybe I’ll leave a comment on their instagram and see if I get an answer.
It is of course possible that the coin was reboxed and kearneycc happened to buy that box. Or someone else bought the box in the presale phase and already sold to kearneycc. Had this been any other red core slab, most of us would not question it at all. But the fact it is the exact same slab just sets off the skepticism meter.
Mind you, that coin was listed early yesterday. My box was sent out with 2 day shipping, was expected yesterday afternoon, and is now delayed until Monday. I do find it a little strange how that particular coin, the same coin in the unboxing, was the FIRST vaultbox coin to go up on eBay bright and early Friday morning before most people got their boxes.
Ah ok, but still given this coin, first out on ebay before most boxes delivered, still fairly fishy and concerning..................
My post may have been unclear by my wording, but I was agreeing with you, strongly. I was emphasizing how strange it was for THAT coin to be listed so early when it was unlikely that most of the boxes had even been delivered yet.
Totally. In addition, does anyone know anything about kearneycc? Clearly a dealer, probably with some connection to PWCC, if not an alt for PWCC itself. Not just a rando who stumbled onto a "sample" coin that was supposed to either go back into a sealed box for random distribution to the masses, or be returned to VB.
And PWCC is in Oregon. There has to be some connection. That exact coin was in an unboxing video shot in a PWCC vault and uploaded to YouTube less than two weeks ago, before the release date for the boxes. And subsequently listed for sale on eBay by a Nebraska coin dealer two days after the boxes went on sale at VB, although there was apparently a pre-sale at PWCC. Lots of coincidences, none of which favor ordinary buyers.
I'm not seeing a clear connection. Minshull Trading-the ones who created the vault box idea-are out of California. So all three parties are in different locations. Maybe they are all part of the group invested into vault box or maybe PWCC sold the coin after unboxing it to a dealer they knew would pay the biggest premium.
In either case, it would contradict their direct statement that those coins would be re boxed and mixed in with the others. Maybe I’ll leave a comment on their instagram and see if I get an answer.
It is of course possible that the coin was reboxed and kearneycc happened to buy that box. Or someone else bought the box in the presale phase and already sold to kearneycc. Had this been any other red core slab, most of us would not question it at all. But the fact it is the exact same slab just sets off the skepticism meter.
Yes. Of course, anything is possible. Also, quite frankly, since this is unregulated, they can do anything they want. Anything at all.
As I said before, true believers will rationalize, and skeptics will be skeptical. Of all the coins for PWCC to pull in a promo unboxing, they happened to pull a one ounce gold.
People screamed on YouTube, and they later disclaimed the unboxing as a mock-up. The exact same coin then becomes the very first pull to be listed on eBay. Identified as a pull, not a prop coin used in a video, by a "Round Table Authorized Dealer," not a Regular Joe, before pretty much everyone even has their box.
Yes, anything is possible. Everyone should believe whatever they want.
Pop 1, extremely scarce. Here’s my 1855-D however I was under the impression that mine was made in some town in Georgia called “Dahlonega”. Learn something new every day 😅
Mind you, that coin was listed early yesterday. My box was sent out with 2 day shipping, was expected yesterday afternoon, and is now delayed until Monday. I do find it a little strange how that particular coin, the same coin in the unboxing, was the FIRST vaultbox coin to go up on eBay bright and early Friday morning before most people got their boxes.
Ah ok, but still given this coin, first out on ebay before most boxes delivered, still fairly fishy and concerning..................
My post may have been unclear by my wording, but I was agreeing with you, strongly. I was emphasizing how strange it was for THAT coin to be listed so early when it was unlikely that most of the boxes had even been delivered yet.
Totally. In addition, does anyone know anything about kearneycc? Clearly a dealer, probably with some connection to PWCC, if not an alt for PWCC itself. Not just a rando who stumbled onto a "sample" coin that was supposed to either go back into a sealed box for random distribution to the masses, or be returned to VB.
And PWCC is in Oregon. There has to be some connection. That exact coin was in an unboxing video shot in a PWCC vault and uploaded to YouTube less than two weeks ago, before the release date for the boxes. And subsequently listed for sale on eBay by a Nebraska coin dealer two days after the boxes went on sale at VB, although there was apparently a pre-sale at PWCC. Lots of coincidences, none of which favor ordinary buyers.
I'm not seeing a clear connection. Minshull Trading-the ones who created the vault box idea-are out of California. So all three parties are in different locations. Maybe they are all part of the group invested into vault box or maybe PWCC sold the coin after unboxing it to a dealer they knew would pay the biggest premium.
In either case, it would contradict their direct statement that those coins would be re boxed and mixed in with the others. Maybe I’ll leave a comment on their instagram and see if I get an answer.
It is of course possible that the coin was reboxed and kearneycc happened to buy that box. Or someone else bought the box in the presale phase and already sold to kearneycc. Had this been any other red core slab, most of us would not question it at all. But the fact it is the exact same slab just sets off the skepticism meter.
Yes. Of course, anything is possible. Also, quite frankly, since this is unregulated, they can do anything they want. Anything at all.
As I said before, true believers will rationalize, and skeptics will be skeptical. Of all the coins for PWCC to pull in a promo unboxing, they happened to pull a one ounce gold.
People screamed on eBay, and they later disclaimed the unboxing as a mock-up. The exact same coin then becomes the very first pull to be listed on eBay. Identified as a pull, by a "Round Table Authorized Dealer," before pretty much everyone even has their box.
Yes, anything is possible. Everyone should believe whatever they want.
One other thing I find interesting is just how sloppy the whole process has been. It does not take much foresight to realize people will be skeptical if you pull a winner in your very first unboxing video and then that same coin is the first to show up on eBay from a coin dealer. If someone wanted to steer the better coins towards certain favored recipients, they could have done a much better job of covering the tracks. So maybe this is all an incredibly unlikely coincidence. Or someone is just bad at realizing what they have done.
Pop 1, extremely scarce. Here’s my 1855-D however I was under the impression that mine was made in some town in Georgia called “Dahlonega”. Learn something new every day 😅
@DeplorableDan said:
Right, which is entirely possible… but the timing leaves me with skepticism. The release was on 1/25 and the boxes shipped that night. When were the pre order boxes shipped? Did anyone receive a box prior to 1/27? Even if your delivery date was 1/27 how often is the delivery early in the morning? I’m pretty sure that coin showed up on eBay around 9am yesterday when there were but
There is virtually no question that that particular coin came out of the VaultBox in that video, and did not go back to NGC for re-boxing, re-sealing, re-randomizing, and re-distribution. The only question is whether there is another one in a sealed box, which is what I inferred when I saw their disclaimer.
The fact that that particular "prop" coin was not returned to VB, but showed up on eBay yesterday, leads me to believe the disclaimer was nothing more than a BS response to the furor on YouTube. Which would also mean they had a way to know which boxes had the big money coins in them.
Again, this is why optics are so important. None of this may be true, but it's what it looks like to me. YMMV.
@DeplorableDan said:
Right, which is entirely possible… but the timing leaves me with skepticism. The release was on 1/25 and the boxes shipped that night. When were the pre order boxes shipped? Did anyone receive a box prior to 1/27? Even if your delivery date was 1/27 how often is the delivery early in the morning? I’m pretty sure that coin showed up on eBay around 9am yesterday when there were but
There is virtually no question that that particular coin came out of the VaultBox in that video, and did not go back to NGC for re-boxing, re-sealing, re-randomizing, and re-distribution. The only question is whether there is another one in a sealed box, which is what I inferred when I saw their disclaimer.
The fact that that particular coin was not returned to VB, but showed up on eBay yesterday, leads me to believe the disclaimer was nothing more than a BS response to the furor on YouTube. YMMV.
This is what they said in response to my instagram question. I guess it could be possible if that person happened to get lucky with an early delivery but I would doubt that any more than 10% of boxes had been delivered by the morning of 1/27. Idk how the pre sale boxes were shipped or when they arrived. Coupled with the fact that the YouTuber with 300k followers also happens to get a winner. They could both be plausible by “coincidence” but the combination of both of them makes my spidey senses tingle.
@DeplorableDan said:
Right, which is entirely possible… but the timing leaves me with skepticism. The release was on 1/25 and the boxes shipped that night. When were the pre order boxes shipped? Did anyone receive a box prior to 1/27? Even if your delivery date was 1/27 how often is the delivery early in the morning? I’m pretty sure that coin showed up on eBay around 9am yesterday when there were but
There is virtually no question that that particular coin came out of the VaultBox in that video, and did not go back to NGC for re-boxing, re-sealing, re-randomizing, and re-distribution. The only question is whether there is another one in a sealed box, which is what I inferred when I saw their disclaimer.
The fact that that particular coin was not returned to VB, but showed up on eBay yesterday, leads me to believe the disclaimer was nothing more than a BS response to the furor on YouTube. YMMV.
This is what they said in response to my instagram question. I guess it could be possible if that person happened to get lucky with an early delivery but I would doubt that any more than 10% of boxes had been delivered by the morning of 1/27. Idk how the pre sale boxes were shipped or when they arrived. Coupled with the fact that the YouTuber with 300k followers also happens to get a winner. They could both be plausible by “coincidence” but the combination of both of them makes my spidey senses tingle.
Said what? That they repacked the coin, or that there is another one out there?
@DeplorableDan said:
Right, which is entirely possible… but the timing leaves me with skepticism. The release was on 1/25 and the boxes shipped that night. When were the pre order boxes shipped? Did anyone receive a box prior to 1/27? Even if your delivery date was 1/27 how often is the delivery early in the morning? I’m pretty sure that coin showed up on eBay around 9am yesterday when there were but
There is virtually no question that that particular coin came out of the VaultBox in that video, and did not go back to NGC for re-boxing, re-sealing, re-randomizing, and re-distribution. The only question is whether there is another one in a sealed box, which is what I inferred when I saw their disclaimer.
The fact that that particular coin was not returned to VB, but showed up on eBay yesterday, leads me to believe the disclaimer was nothing more than a BS response to the furor on YouTube. YMMV.
This is what they said in response to my instagram question. I guess it could be possible if that person happened to get lucky with an early delivery but I would doubt that any more than 10% of boxes had been delivered by the morning of 1/27. Idk how the pre sale boxes were shipped or when they arrived. Coupled with the fact that the YouTuber with 300k followers also happens to get a winner. They could both be plausible by “coincidence” but the combination of both of them makes my spidey senses tingle.
Said what? That they repacked the coin, or that there is another one out there?
Excerpt from another article on PWCC shilling, and they are heavily involved in the Vaultbox if the Youtube vid is any indicator.
Concern.......
"The response by PWCC confirms a persistent rumor that may explain some of eBay’s actions. Already in 2016, there was talk of PWCC leaving eBay and starting their own selling platform. The Oregon company is a significant player. It has the pull and funds to damage eBay. Therefore, eBay may have lost its motive to protect PWCC.
This seems like the most likely explanation It is not clear what development prompted eBay to cave to pressure regarding PWCC’s misdeeds finally. However, it must have been quite significant. By some estimates, PWCC accounts for somewhere between 1-2% of eBay revenue. That is why the online market giant has been hesitant to take action until now."
I look forward to seeing if anyone who bought VB's during the initial offering (not the pre-sale), scores a 'big' coin.......
@DeplorableDan said:
Right, which is entirely possible… but the timing leaves me with skepticism. The release was on 1/25 and the boxes shipped that night. When were the pre order boxes shipped? Did anyone receive a box prior to 1/27? Even if your delivery date was 1/27 how often is the delivery early in the morning? I’m pretty sure that coin showed up on eBay around 9am yesterday when there were but
There is virtually no question that that particular coin came out of the VaultBox in that video, and did not go back to NGC for re-boxing, re-sealing, re-randomizing, and re-distribution. The only question is whether there is another one in a sealed box, which is what I inferred when I saw their disclaimer.
The fact that that particular coin was not returned to VB, but showed up on eBay yesterday, leads me to believe the disclaimer was nothing more than a BS response to the furor on YouTube. YMMV.
This is what they said in response to my instagram question. I guess it could be possible if that person happened to get lucky with an early delivery but I would doubt that any more than 10% of boxes had been delivered by the morning of 1/27. Idk how the pre sale boxes were shipped or when they arrived. Coupled with the fact that the YouTuber with 300k followers also happens to get a winner. They could both be plausible by “coincidence” but the combination of both of them makes my spidey senses tingle.
Said what? That they repacked the coin, or that there is another one out there?
Sorry, forgot to attach
Thanks for the clarification. Yes, it's certainly possible. But even if it wasn't, I wouldn't expect them to admit to doing anything wrong. Which is why, in response to someone else asking me why I don't just ask VB my questions directly, the answer is that once you lose credibility, nothing you say can be relied upon.
I thought Blake came across as very sincere and credible in his interview. And, as I said before, I was tempted. Then I saw the amateurish hard sell unboxing videos, with the awkward walk backs, and I was turned off.
Sure, they repacked the first red core revealed, redistributed it, randomly, and it just so happened to be the first one received and listed for sale by a dealer who knows nothing about classic gold, rather than by an Average Joe when the other 2399 coins are received over the coming week. Whatever. Next, they'll be telling us that the moon landing was staged, and I should listen to them and ignore the little voice in my head. 🤣
@J2035 said:
I would really like to see a greater variety of boxes - how about 3 blast white morgans graded by our host with an occasional key or semi-key date (CC?) thrown in? Or a Morgan, Peace and Eisenhower with an occasional seated liberty included? Possibilities are endless.
Your prayers have 'almost' been answered. Here is a 6 pack of modern Morgans and Peace in NGCX 10 holders! All blast white and all semi-key!!
I’d like to see classic coins - not 2021 Morgans. Over time, the vaultbox crowd can be steered toward classics just like dealers work to convert their bullion customers to classic (US Coins in Houston talks about this a bit in their podcasts). It’s about expanding the market.
This is about NGCX and marketing to the people who won't buy a 65 because that's a failing grade.
I'm all for boxes of different types, but I think you're missing the central marketing point here.
I think you missed the point - over time, new modern collectors can be converted to collecting classics which expands the market.
Of course it’s not the point of the initial vaultbox and I never stated it was.
You seem to conflate NGCX and vaultbox - they aren’t the same thing. Vaultbox seems to be the source of all the buzz - not NGCX. Other companies will jump into the unboxing concept and could very well use PCGS or other TPG coins of any type.
Why do you think VaultBox is using NGCX graded eagles when NGC graded eagles exist? They are conflated in the marketing approach because of the target audience.
Yes, other companies could jump into the unboxing concept. However, I think it might fail if they are trying to market Sheldon scale coins to coin collectors or Sheldon scale coins to non-collectors. There is limited appeal of grab bags and mystery boxes among coin collectors (this thread is evidence) and non-collectors or, rather, collectors of other material are far more comfortable with the 10 scale than the Sheldon scale because all other collectibles are currently on a 10 or 100 scale.
It's a first-to-market approach. It is far more likely that this approach leads to grading other coins on the X scale than that this approach leads to pitching the Sheldon scale to people who still haven't been introduced to it.
But, time will tell...
Part of the reason there is limited appeal to current collectors is because they are boxing moderns using a new grading scale. The other part creating angst is the perceived value of paying $600 for ~$200 worth of coins. If they boxed classic Morgans with a wholesale value of ~$200 and sold the box for ~$250 with a very occasional semi-key date thrown in, we’d be having a different conversation and I doubt the “scam” word would have even come up. Less a lottery concept and more of a box break or subscription model.
By the way - first to market is rarely the long term winner. Anyone remember the first TPG?
@spacehayduke said:
Excerpt from another article on PWCC shilling, and they are heavily involved in the Vaultbox if the Youtube vid is any indicator.
Concern.......
"The response by PWCC confirms a persistent rumor that may explain some of eBay’s actions. Already in 2016, there was talk of PWCC leaving eBay and starting their own selling platform. The Oregon company is a significant player. It has the pull and funds to damage eBay. Therefore, eBay may have lost its motive to protect PWCC.
This seems like the most likely explanation It is not clear what development prompted eBay to cave to pressure regarding PWCC’s misdeeds finally. However, it must have been quite significant. By some estimates, PWCC accounts for somewhere between 1-2% of eBay revenue. That is why the online market giant has been hesitant to take action until now."
I look forward to seeing if anyone who bought VB's during the initial offering (not the pre-sale), scores a 'big' coin.......
And this is why I have no interest in unregulated lotteries. One third of the boxes were distributed through them. Classy firm to go into business with, but perfect for their target market, which is undoubtedly all that drove the decision.
Again, good for VB, but I don't see how this would be attractive to the people frequenting this forum.
@spacehayduke said:
.
"the promotional coins were cycled back into the boxes before being randominzed".
PWCC promo vid uploaded on youtube Jan 16.
Vault Box up for sale at 9 am pac time on Jan. 25.
VB states that all boxes were packed and sealed by NGC. Timeline for repackaging?
I don't want to defend them, but anything is possible if the video was pre-taped. The totality of the circumstances, and the logistics of NGC re-doing anything, dictate that it is unlikely.
If they were serious, it would have been far easier to just slab a mock coin for the mock box, and then break it out, than to go to the trouble to re-pack, re-seal and re-distribute boxes. This is, in fact, what I thought they meant with their disclaimer, although I never believed it because they didn't provide the disclaimer up front, but only after being confronted with the fact that a valuable coin was pulled before they went on sale.
They are not really thoroughly thinking things through. If they were, regardless of anything shady they may or may not be doing with distribution, they wouldn't expose it to public view through early unboxing videos or listings on eBay. Total amateur hour.
@NJCoin said:
They are not really thoroughly thinking things through. If they were, regardless of anything shady they may or may not be doing with distribution, they wouldn't expose it to public view through early unboxing videos or listings on eBay.
The fact that they did a pre-sale, that many/most raring to buy on 1/25 likely were unaware of, RED FLAG.
Interesting, I missed these earlier but it look like two super common ASE’s sold on eBay for $100 each. Same seller from california both today. For each coin, the vaultbox offer is $40 which seems a little low for the 2003 based on the other offers I’ve seen for common coins. The 2003 trades around $45 for ms69 pcgs plastic, and the 2011 trades around 30-35$ in ms69 in the most recent listings. (Coinfacts records only, I don’t have access to greysheet)
@DeplorableDan said:
Interesting, I missed these earlier but it look like two super common ASE’s sold on eBay for $100 each. Same seller from california both today. For each coin, the vaultbox offer is $40 which seems a little low for the 2003 based on the other offers I’ve seen for common coins. The 2003 trades around $45 for ms69 pcgs plastic, and the 2011 trades around 30-35$ in ms69 in the most recent listings. (Coinfacts records only, I don’t have access to greysheet)
Do you have confidence that the sales are real, so far above market? Can they also be shills? Trying to condition a market to attach a premium to these?
They have 4 other coins listed, which represent two boxes worth, including the two that sold. Two of them are red cores. What are the odds? Not sure just how random the distribution was, but some folks sure seem to be lucky, while others really aren't.
@DeplorableDan said:
Interesting, I missed these earlier but it look like two super common ASE’s sold on eBay for $100 each. Same seller from california both today. For each coin, the vaultbox offer is $40 which seems a little low for the 2003 based on the other offers I’ve seen for common coins. The 2003 trades around $45 for ms69 pcgs plastic, and the 2011 trades around 30-35$ in ms69 in the most recent listings. (Coinfacts records only, I don’t have access to greysheet)
Do you have confidence that the sales are real, so far above market? Can they also be shills? Trying to condition a market to attach a premium to these?
They have 4 other coins listed, which represent two boxes worth, including the two that sold. Two of them are red cores. What are the odds? Not sure just how random the distribution was, but some folks sure seem to be lucky, while others really aren't.
I wouldn't doubt those $100 eBay sales. There are plenty of slab collectors (I once did that too where I tried to collect one of each type of slab before shifting my interests). Those that want the slab only have 2,400 potential options from Vault Box Series 1 and these were the cheapest ones on the market, so they were scooped up. Of course there might be cheaper options later but some people want one as soon as possible and don't wait (or are afraid they might miss out/not find any cheaper later on).
Do you have confidence that the sales are real, so far above market? Can they also be shills? Who else is located in California?
I'm leaning that the sales are authentic and the buyer may be someone speculating not on the coin, but rather the holder, in hopes that these 1st Gen holders will appreciate in value should the concept become an annual event.
@DeplorableDan said:
Interesting, I missed these earlier but it look like two super common ASE’s sold on eBay for $100 each. Same seller from california both today. For each coin, the vaultbox offer is $40 which seems a little low for the 2003 based on the other offers I’ve seen for common coins. The 2003 trades around $45 for ms69 pcgs plastic, and the 2011 trades around 30-35$ in ms69 in the most recent listings. (Coinfacts records only, I don’t have access to greysheet)
Do you have confidence that the sales are real, so far above market? Can they also be shills? Trying to condition a market to attach a premium to these?
They have 4 other coins listed, which represent two boxes worth, including the two that sold. Two of them are red cores. What are the odds? Not sure just how random the distribution was, but some folks sure seem to be lucky, while others really aren't.
I wouldn't doubt those $100 eBay sales. There are plenty of slab collectors (I once did that too where I tried to collect one of each type of slab before shifting my interests). Those that want the slab only have 2,400 potential options from Vault Box Series 1 and these were the cheapest ones on the market, so they were scooped up. Of course there might be cheaper options later but some people want one as soon as possible and don't wait (or are afraid they might miss out/not find any cheaper later on).
@DeplorableDan said:
Interesting, I missed these earlier but it look like two super common ASE’s sold on eBay for $100 each. Same seller from california both today. For each coin, the vaultbox offer is $40 which seems a little low for the 2003 based on the other offers I’ve seen for common coins. The 2003 trades around $45 for ms69 pcgs plastic, and the 2011 trades around 30-35$ in ms69 in the most recent listings. (Coinfacts records only, I don’t have access to greysheet)
Do you have confidence that the sales are real, so far above market? Can they also be shills? Trying to condition a market to attach a premium to these?
They have 4 other coins listed, which represent two boxes worth, including the two that sold. Two of them are red cores. What are the odds? Not sure just how random the distribution was, but some folks sure seem to be lucky, while others really aren't.
I wouldn't doubt those $100 eBay sales. There are plenty of slab collectors (I once did that too where I tried to collect one of each type of slab before shifting my interests). Those that want the slab only have 2,400 potential options from Vault Box Series 1 and these were the cheapest ones on the market, so they were scooped up. Of course there might be cheaper options later but some people want one as soon as possible and don't wait (or are afraid they might miss out/not find any cheaper later on).
I would buy them at 80 to 100.
I was going to tag you and suggest that might have been you who bought those.
If these take off or even flop and don't have many more released, the first set of slabs could gain value in the future.
@DeplorableDan said:
Interesting, I missed these earlier but it look like two super common ASE’s sold on eBay for $100 each. Same seller from california both today. For each coin, the vaultbox offer is $40 which seems a little low for the 2003 based on the other offers I’ve seen for common coins. The 2003 trades around $45 for ms69 pcgs plastic, and the 2011 trades around 30-35$ in ms69 in the most recent listings. (Coinfacts records only, I don’t have access to greysheet)
Do you have confidence that the sales are real, so far above market? Can they also be shills? Trying to condition a market to attach a premium to these?
They have 4 other coins listed, which represent two boxes worth, including the two that sold. Two of them are red cores. What are the odds? Not sure just how random the distribution was, but some folks sure seem to be lucky, while others really aren't.
I wouldn't doubt those $100 eBay sales. There are plenty of slab collectors (I once did that too where I tried to collect one of each type of slab before shifting my interests). Those that want the slab only have 2,400 potential options from Vault Box Series 1 and these were the cheapest ones on the market, so they were scooped up. Of course there might be cheaper options later but some people want one as soon as possible and don't wait (or are afraid they might miss out/not find any cheaper later on).
I would buy them at 80 to 100.
I will keep that in mind when I open my box on Monday 😉
@DeplorableDan said:
Interesting, I missed these earlier but it look like two super common ASE’s sold on eBay for $100 each. Same seller from california both today. For each coin, the vaultbox offer is $40 which seems a little low for the 2003 based on the other offers I’ve seen for common coins. The 2003 trades around $45 for ms69 pcgs plastic, and the 2011 trades around 30-35$ in ms69 in the most recent listings. (Coinfacts records only, I don’t have access to greysheet)
Do you have confidence that the sales are real, so far above market? Can they also be shills? Trying to condition a market to attach a premium to these?
They have 4 other coins listed, which represent two boxes worth, including the two that sold. Two of them are red cores. What are the odds? Not sure just how random the distribution was, but some folks sure seem to be lucky, while others really aren't.
I wouldn't doubt those $100 eBay sales. There are plenty of slab collectors (I once did that too where I tried to collect one of each type of slab before shifting my interests). Those that want the slab only have 2,400 potential options from Vault Box Series 1 and these were the cheapest ones on the market, so they were scooped up. Of course there might be cheaper options later but some people want one as soon as possible and don't wait (or are afraid they might miss out/not find any cheaper later on).
I would buy them at 80 to 100.
I was going to tag you and suggest that might have been you who bought those.
If these take off or even flop and don't have many more released, the first set of slabs could gain value in the future.
I think it goes beyond VaultBox. [I should shut up lest I increase my own competition. ] if NGCX takes off, with orc without VB, these are clearly labeled early examples.
@DeplorableDan said:
Interesting, I missed these earlier but it look like two super common ASE’s sold on eBay for $100 each. Same seller from california both today. For each coin, the vaultbox offer is $40 which seems a little low for the 2003 based on the other offers I’ve seen for common coins. The 2003 trades around $45 for ms69 pcgs plastic, and the 2011 trades around 30-35$ in ms69 in the most recent listings. (Coinfacts records only, I don’t have access to greysheet)
Do you have confidence that the sales are real, so far above market? Can they also be shills? Trying to condition a market to attach a premium to these?
They have 4 other coins listed, which represent two boxes worth, including the two that sold. Two of them are red cores. What are the odds? Not sure just how random the distribution was, but some folks sure seem to be lucky, while others really aren't.
I wouldn't doubt those $100 eBay sales. There are plenty of slab collectors (I once did that too where I tried to collect one of each type of slab before shifting my interests). Those that want the slab only have 2,400 potential options from Vault Box Series 1 and these were the cheapest ones on the market, so they were scooped up. Of course there might be cheaper options later but some people want one as soon as possible and don't wait (or are afraid they might miss out/not find any cheaper later on).
I would buy them at 80 to 100.
I will keep that in mind when I open my box on Monday 😉
@DeplorableDan said:
Interesting, I missed these earlier but it look like two super common ASE’s sold on eBay for $100 each. Same seller from california both today. For each coin, the vaultbox offer is $40 which seems a little low for the 2003 based on the other offers I’ve seen for common coins. The 2003 trades around $45 for ms69 pcgs plastic, and the 2011 trades around 30-35$ in ms69 in the most recent listings. (Coinfacts records only, I don’t have access to greysheet)
Do you have confidence that the sales are real, so far above market? Can they also be shills? Trying to condition a market to attach a premium to these?
They have 4 other coins listed, which represent two boxes worth, including the two that sold. Two of them are red cores. What are the odds? Not sure just how random the distribution was, but some folks sure seem to be lucky, while others really aren't.
I wouldn't doubt those $100 eBay sales. There are plenty of slab collectors (I once did that too where I tried to collect one of each type of slab before shifting my interests). Those that want the slab only have 2,400 potential options from Vault Box Series 1 and these were the cheapest ones on the market, so they were scooped up. Of course there might be cheaper options later but some people want one as soon as possible and don't wait (or are afraid they might miss out/not find any cheaper later on).
I would buy them at 80 to 100.
I was going to tag you and suggest that might have been you who bought those.
If these take off or even flop and don't have many more released, the first set of slabs could gain value in the future.
I think it goes beyond VaultBox. [I should shut up lest I increase my own competition. ] if NGCX takes off, with orc without VB, these are clearly labeled early examples.
I’ve considered this as a possibility, I was talking with one of the sellers of the eBay boxes and he had gotten 2, and planned to keep one unopened and play the long game with the other. I don’t know if I will be able to resist opening the box but if I got a red core I would likely keep the coin just in case.
If you don't need the money, why not keep them all regardless? Your experiment was to see what you got, and what the Instant Offers looked like, not necessarily to cash out immediately.
Once you open the box, you're not going to have a lot of additional downside, and @jmlanzaf might be on to something. The coins will always have some intrinsic value, and, if there is no interest in NGCX in the future, you will always be able to cross them over to NGC, if nowhere else.
@DeplorableDan said:
Interesting, I missed these earlier but it look like two super common ASE’s sold on eBay for $100 each. Same seller from california both today. For each coin, the vaultbox offer is $40 which seems a little low for the 2003 based on the other offers I’ve seen for common coins. The 2003 trades around $45 for ms69 pcgs plastic, and the 2011 trades around 30-35$ in ms69 in the most recent listings. (Coinfacts records only, I don’t have access to greysheet)
Do you have confidence that the sales are real, so far above market? Can they also be shills? Trying to condition a market to attach a premium to these?
They have 4 other coins listed, which represent two boxes worth, including the two that sold. Two of them are red cores. What are the odds? Not sure just how random the distribution was, but some folks sure seem to be lucky, while others really aren't.
I wouldn't doubt those $100 eBay sales. There are plenty of slab collectors (I once did that too where I tried to collect one of each type of slab before shifting my interests). Those that want the slab only have 2,400 potential options from Vault Box Series 1 and these were the cheapest ones on the market, so they were scooped up. Of course there might be cheaper options later but some people want one as soon as possible and don't wait (or are afraid they might miss out/not find any cheaper later on).
I would buy them at 80 to 100.
I was going to tag you and suggest that might have been you who bought those.
If these take off or even flop and don't have many more released, the first set of slabs could gain value in the future.
I think it goes beyond VaultBox. [I should shut up lest I increase my own competition. ] if NGCX takes off, with orc without VB, these are clearly labeled early examples.
I’ve considered this as a possibility, I was talking with one of the sellers of the eBay boxes and he had gotten 2, and planned to keep one unopened and play the long game with the other. I don’t know if I will be able to resist opening the box but if I got a red core I would likely keep the coin just in case.
If you don't need the money, why not keep them all regardless? Once you open the box, you're not going to have a lot of additional down side, and @jmlanzaf might be on to something. The coins will always have some intrinsic value, and, if there is no interest in NGCX in the future, you will always be able to cross them over to NGC, if nowhere else.
I went to edit that previous comment for clarity and it went into the mod approval abyss, just saying for posterity.
As far as keeping them, that’s a good point. I really haven’t made any decisions one way or another, at the least I was going to hold on to them for a few days or a week and watch what eBay sales were doing and compare to the corresponding vaultbox offer to see how the market develops.
@DeplorableDan said:
Interesting, I missed these earlier but it look like two super common ASE’s sold on eBay for $100 each. Same seller from california both today. For each coin, the vaultbox offer is $40 which seems a little low for the 2003 based on the other offers I’ve seen for common coins. The 2003 trades around $45 for ms69 pcgs plastic, and the 2011 trades around 30-35$ in ms69 in the most recent listings. (Coinfacts records only, I don’t have access to greysheet)
Do you have confidence that the sales are real, so far above market? Can they also be shills? Trying to condition a market to attach a premium to these?
They have 4 other coins listed, which represent two boxes worth, including the two that sold. Two of them are red cores. What are the odds? Not sure just how random the distribution was, but some folks sure seem to be lucky, while others really aren't.
I wouldn't doubt those $100 eBay sales. There are plenty of slab collectors (I once did that too where I tried to collect one of each type of slab before shifting my interests). Those that want the slab only have 2,400 potential options from Vault Box Series 1 and these were the cheapest ones on the market, so they were scooped up. Of course there might be cheaper options later but some people want one as soon as possible and don't wait (or are afraid they might miss out/not find any cheaper later on).
I would buy them at 80 to 100.
I was going to tag you and suggest that might have been you who bought those.
If these take off or even flop and don't have many more released, the first set of slabs could gain value in the future.
I think it goes beyond VaultBox. [I should shut up lest I increase my own competition. ] if NGCX takes off, with orc without VB, these are clearly labeled early examples.
I’ve considered this as a possibility, I was talking with one of the sellers of the eBay boxes and he had gotten 2, and planned to keep one unopened and play the long game with the other. I don’t know if I will be able to resist opening the box but if I got a red core I would likely keep the coin just in case.
If you don't need the money, why not keep them all regardless? Once you open the box, you're not going to have a lot of additional down side, and @jmlanzaf might be on to something. The coins will always have some intrinsic value, and, if there is no interest in NGCX in the future, you will always be able to cross them over to NGC, if nowhere else.
I went to edit that previous comment for clarity and it went into the mod approval abyss, just saying for posterity.
As far as keeping them, that’s a good point. I really haven’t made any decisions one way or another, at the least I was going to hold on to them for a few days or a week and watch what eBay sales were doing and compare to the corresponding vaultbox offer to see how the market develops.
I hear you. But what I'm talking about, again if you can spare the $600, is a much longer term play. If this doesn't just fizzle and then die, it will be years before these slabs and labels develop a market and value, if at all. But, if they get greedy and decide to feed demand by issuing much bigger series, at much lower price points, these early, more expensive ones could someday be worth something.
It's not a game I'd be interested in playing, but, once you open the box you are pot committed. You should always be able to sell an unopened box on eBay and do better than break even. At least for the next few weeks.
Unless you get a big score and want to cash out, if it's only a few hundred dollars worth of coins and you can afford to just forget about them for a few years, you aren't going to have a lot of downside on the coins, and might have some upside on the slabs.
Here's a scenario. Imagine 50 to 100 VB Buyers leave their boxes unopened and by chance, the "crown jewel" just happens to be among one of the sealed boxes. I wager the initial price of the box would pale in comparison to the market value until such a time the "Gem" is revealed.
@ColonelKlinck said:
Here's a scenario. Imagine 50 to 100 VB Buyers leave their boxes unopened and by chance, the "crown jewel" just happens to be among one of the sealed boxes. I wager the initial price of the box would pale in comparison to the market value until such a time the "Gem" is revealed.
That has been speculated, but would be a very risky wager for anyone chasing unopened boxes on eBay, because there is no guarantee that the coin will be publicly revealed when pulled. And that's assuming nothing shady happened with the distribution, and the coin is even available to be pulled by someone with no connection to the operation.
Given VB's talent for self-promotion, that coin is either going to show up to great fanfare on the internet in the very near future, because VB has a great interest in the publicity it would bring to its future plans, and it has no interest in inflating secondary market values of unopened boxes it has already sold. Or, it might stay hidden for a long time, with no guarantee that it will be in any box available for purchase on the secondary market. As with everything else associated with this, caveat emptor.
This reminds me of those high end baseball and basketball card boxes where you pay thousands for 3 cards. One or two might get lucky but the majority all lose.
Comments
This is about NGCX and marketing to the people who won't buy a 65 because that's a failing grade.
I'm all for boxes of different types, but I think you're missing the central marketing point here.
All I know is that it's a coin dealer from Nebraska.
Here is their page:
https://www.kearneycoincenter.com/
I think you missed the point - over time, new modern collectors can be converted to collecting classics which expands the market.
Of course it’s not the point of the initial vaultbox and I never stated it was.
You seem to conflate NGCX and vaultbox - they aren’t the same thing. Vaultbox seems to be the source of all the buzz - not NGCX. Other companies will jump into the unboxing concept and could very well use PCGS or other TPG coins of any type.
And PWCC is in Oregon. There has to be some connection. That exact coin was in an unboxing video shot in a PWCC vault and uploaded to YouTube less than two weeks ago, before the release date for the boxes.
That unboxing was later disclaimed by PWCC as follows:
"*Disclaimer: This was a promotional box provided to PWCC in partnership with VaultBox intended to replicate the opening experience. The coins opened in this promotion box are still available to be opened in the official distribution of VaultBox Series 1."
The coin is then mysteriously listed for sale on eBay by a Nebraska coin dealer two days after the boxes went on sale at VB, although there was apparently a pre-sale at PWCC. Lots of coincidences, none of which favor ordinary buyers.
Purely based on where Kearny CC and PWCC are located it doesn't feel like they are somehow linked. At least that's my opinion.
Honestly, I really do like the idea of bringing the fun of box breaks to coins but at $600 it's not for me. The closest I'll come to gambling in our hobby is buying something raw and sending it in to get graded. With VaultBox, for sure there is some value above the intrinsic value of the coins themselves that comes from the excitement of getting the box and opening it up knowing that there is the possibility of a big score. How much to value that piece? It's purely up to each individual.
I'm not seeing a clear connection. Minshull Trading-the ones who created the vault box idea-are out of California. So all three parties are in different locations. Maybe they are all part of the group invested into vault box or maybe PWCC sold the coin after unboxing it to a dealer they knew would pay the biggest premium.
In either case, it would contradict their direct statement that those coins would be re boxed and mixed in with the others. Maybe I’ll leave a comment on their instagram and see if I get an answer.
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Why do you think VaultBox is using NGCX graded eagles when NGC graded eagles exist? They are conflated in the marketing approach because of the target audience.
Yes, other companies could jump into the unboxing concept. However, I think it might fail if they are trying to market Sheldon scale coins to coin collectors or Sheldon scale coins to non-collectors. There is limited appeal of grab bags and mystery boxes among coin collectors (this thread is evidence) and non-collectors or, rather, collectors of other material are far more comfortable with the 10 scale than the Sheldon scale because all other collectibles are currently on a 10 or 100 scale.
It's a first-to-market approach. It is far more likely that this approach leads to grading other coins on the X scale than that this approach leads to pitching the Sheldon scale to people who still haven't been introduced to it.
But, time will tell...
PWCC is the target audience. It need be no more of a connection than that.
It is of course possible that the coin was reboxed and kearneycc happened to buy that box. Or someone else bought the box in the presale phase and already sold to kearneycc. Had this been any other red core slab, most of us would not question it at all. But the fact it is the exact same slab just sets off the skepticism meter.
About kearnycc, just noting that they have an 1855 Denver half eagle for sale.....................
https://www.kearneycoincenter.com/product/542785-1855-d-5-medium-d
Yes. Of course, anything is possible. Also, quite frankly, since this is unregulated, they can do anything they want. Anything at all.
As I said before, true believers will rationalize, and skeptics will be skeptical. Of all the coins for PWCC to pull in a promo unboxing, they happened to pull a one ounce gold.
People screamed on YouTube, and they later disclaimed the unboxing as a mock-up. The exact same coin then becomes the very first pull to be listed on eBay. Identified as a pull, not a prop coin used in a video, by a "Round Table Authorized Dealer," not a Regular Joe, before pretty much everyone even has their box.
Yes, anything is possible. Everyone should believe whatever they want.
@spacehayduke said:
Pop 1, extremely scarce. Here’s my 1855-D however I was under the impression that mine was made in some town in Georgia called “Dahlonega”. Learn something new every day 😅
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Sounds like the old shell game. I'm going to stick with cracker jacks boxes. Popeye is my go-to guy.
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One other thing I find interesting is just how sloppy the whole process has been. It does not take much foresight to realize people will be skeptical if you pull a winner in your very first unboxing video and then that same coin is the first to show up on eBay from a coin dealer. If someone wanted to steer the better coins towards certain favored recipients, they could have done a much better job of covering the tracks. So maybe this is all an incredibly unlikely coincidence. Or someone is just bad at realizing what they have done.
There is virtually no question that that particular coin came out of the VaultBox in that video, and did not go back to NGC for re-boxing, re-sealing, re-randomizing, and re-distribution. The only question is whether there is another one in a sealed box, which is what I inferred when I saw their disclaimer.
The fact that that particular "prop" coin was not returned to VB, but showed up on eBay yesterday, leads me to believe the disclaimer was nothing more than a BS response to the furor on YouTube. Which would also mean they had a way to know which boxes had the big money coins in them.
Again, this is why optics are so important. None of this may be true, but it's what it looks like to me. YMMV.
This was pointed out by @1madman in a different thread, killer milk spot on this one.
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FYI:
https://www.axios.com/2021/08/20/ebay-suspends-pwcc-shill-bidding-trading-cards
This is what they said in response to my instagram question. I guess it could be possible if that person happened to get lucky with an early delivery but I would doubt that any more than 10% of boxes had been delivered by the morning of 1/27. Idk how the pre sale boxes were shipped or when they arrived. Coupled with the fact that the YouTuber with 300k followers also happens to get a winner. They could both be plausible by “coincidence” but the combination of both of them makes my spidey senses tingle.
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Said what? That they repacked the coin, or that there is another one out there?
Sorry, forgot to attach
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Excerpt from another article on PWCC shilling, and they are heavily involved in the Vaultbox if the Youtube vid is any indicator.
Concern.......
"The response by PWCC confirms a persistent rumor that may explain some of eBay’s actions. Already in 2016, there was talk of PWCC leaving eBay and starting their own selling platform. The Oregon company is a significant player. It has the pull and funds to damage eBay. Therefore, eBay may have lost its motive to protect PWCC.
This seems like the most likely explanation It is not clear what development prompted eBay to cave to pressure regarding PWCC’s misdeeds finally. However, it must have been quite significant. By some estimates, PWCC accounts for somewhere between 1-2% of eBay revenue. That is why the online market giant has been hesitant to take action until now."
I look forward to seeing if anyone who bought VB's during the initial offering (not the pre-sale), scores a 'big' coin.......
Yes, they have to dole them out ...
Thanks for the clarification. Yes, it's certainly possible. But even if it wasn't, I wouldn't expect them to admit to doing anything wrong. Which is why, in response to someone else asking me why I don't just ask VB my questions directly, the answer is that once you lose credibility, nothing you say can be relied upon.
I thought Blake came across as very sincere and credible in his interview. And, as I said before, I was tempted. Then I saw the amateurish hard sell unboxing videos, with the awkward walk backs, and I was turned off.
Sure, they repacked the first red core revealed, redistributed it, randomly, and it just so happened to be the first one received and listed for sale by a dealer who knows nothing about classic gold, rather than by an Average Joe when the other 2399 coins are received over the coming week. Whatever. Next, they'll be telling us that the moon landing was staged, and I should listen to them and ignore the little voice in my head. 🤣
Part of the reason there is limited appeal to current collectors is because they are boxing moderns using a new grading scale. The other part creating angst is the perceived value of paying $600 for ~$200 worth of coins. If they boxed classic Morgans with a wholesale value of ~$200 and sold the box for ~$250 with a very occasional semi-key date thrown in, we’d be having a different conversation and I doubt the “scam” word would have even come up. Less a lottery concept and more of a box break or subscription model.
By the way - first to market is rarely the long term winner. Anyone remember the first TPG?
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"the promotional coins were cycled back into the boxes before being randominzed".
PWCC promo vid uploaded on youtube Jan 16.
Vault Box up for sale at 9 am pac time on Jan. 25.
VB states that all boxes were packed and sealed by NGC. Timeline for repackaging?
And this is why I have no interest in unregulated lotteries. One third of the boxes were distributed through them. Classy firm to go into business with, but perfect for their target market, which is undoubtedly all that drove the decision.
Again, good for VB, but I don't see how this would be attractive to the people frequenting this forum.
I don't want to defend them, but anything is possible if the video was pre-taped. The totality of the circumstances, and the logistics of NGC re-doing anything, dictate that it is unlikely.
If they were serious, it would have been far easier to just slab a mock coin for the mock box, and then break it out, than to go to the trouble to re-pack, re-seal and re-distribute boxes. This is, in fact, what I thought they meant with their disclaimer, although I never believed it because they didn't provide the disclaimer up front, but only after being confronted with the fact that a valuable coin was pulled before they went on sale.
They are not really thoroughly thinking things through. If they were, regardless of anything shady they may or may not be doing with distribution, they wouldn't expose it to public view through early unboxing videos or listings on eBay. Total amateur hour.
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The fact that they did a pre-sale, that many/most raring to buy on 1/25 likely were unaware of, RED FLAG.
Interesting, I missed these earlier but it look like two super common ASE’s sold on eBay for $100 each. Same seller from california both today. For each coin, the vaultbox offer is $40 which seems a little low for the 2003 based on the other offers I’ve seen for common coins. The 2003 trades around $45 for ms69 pcgs plastic, and the 2011 trades around 30-35$ in ms69 in the most recent listings. (Coinfacts records only, I don’t have access to greysheet)
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Do you have confidence that the sales are real, so far above market? Can they also be shills? Trying to condition a market to attach a premium to these?
They have 4 other coins listed, which represent two boxes worth, including the two that sold. Two of them are red cores. What are the odds? Not sure just how random the distribution was, but some folks sure seem to be lucky, while others really aren't.
Interesting.
Ebay's brand is worth more than the pwcc biz. Likely they waited to make sure they had the legal ducks in a row.
I would bank on Ebay's legal team and the book value of the company versus any large retailer.
I wouldn't doubt those $100 eBay sales. There are plenty of slab collectors (I once did that too where I tried to collect one of each type of slab before shifting my interests). Those that want the slab only have 2,400 potential options from Vault Box Series 1 and these were the cheapest ones on the market, so they were scooped up. Of course there might be cheaper options later but some people want one as soon as possible and don't wait (or are afraid they might miss out/not find any cheaper later on).
Do you have confidence that the sales are real, so far above market? Can they also be shills? Who else is located in California?
I'm leaning that the sales are authentic and the buyer may be someone speculating not on the coin, but rather the holder, in hopes that these 1st Gen holders will appreciate in value should the concept become an annual event.
I would buy them at 80 to 100.
I was going to tag you and suggest that might have been you who bought those.
If these take off or even flop and don't have many more released, the first set of slabs could gain value in the future.
I will keep that in mind when I open my box on Monday 😉
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I think it goes beyond VaultBox. [I should shut up lest I increase my own competition. ] if NGCX takes off, with orc without VB, these are clearly labeled early examples.
Please do.
If you don't need the money, why not keep them all regardless? Your experiment was to see what you got, and what the Instant Offers looked like, not necessarily to cash out immediately.
Once you open the box, you're not going to have a lot of additional downside, and @jmlanzaf might be on to something. The coins will always have some intrinsic value, and, if there is no interest in NGCX in the future, you will always be able to cross them over to NGC, if nowhere else.
I went to edit that previous comment for clarity and it went into the mod approval abyss, just saying for posterity.
As far as keeping them, that’s a good point. I really haven’t made any decisions one way or another, at the least I was going to hold on to them for a few days or a week and watch what eBay sales were doing and compare to the corresponding vaultbox offer to see how the market develops.
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I hear you. But what I'm talking about, again if you can spare the $600, is a much longer term play. If this doesn't just fizzle and then die, it will be years before these slabs and labels develop a market and value, if at all. But, if they get greedy and decide to feed demand by issuing much bigger series, at much lower price points, these early, more expensive ones could someday be worth something.
It's not a game I'd be interested in playing, but, once you open the box you are pot committed. You should always be able to sell an unopened box on eBay and do better than break even. At least for the next few weeks.
Unless you get a big score and want to cash out, if it's only a few hundred dollars worth of coins and you can afford to just forget about them for a few years, you aren't going to have a lot of downside on the coins, and might have some upside on the slabs.
Here's a scenario. Imagine 50 to 100 VB Buyers leave their boxes unopened and by chance, the "crown jewel" just happens to be among one of the sealed boxes. I wager the initial price of the box would pale in comparison to the market value until such a time the "Gem" is revealed.
That has been speculated, but would be a very risky wager for anyone chasing unopened boxes on eBay, because there is no guarantee that the coin will be publicly revealed when pulled. And that's assuming nothing shady happened with the distribution, and the coin is even available to be pulled by someone with no connection to the operation.
Given VB's talent for self-promotion, that coin is either going to show up to great fanfare on the internet in the very near future, because VB has a great interest in the publicity it would bring to its future plans, and it has no interest in inflating secondary market values of unopened boxes it has already sold. Or, it might stay hidden for a long time, with no guarantee that it will be in any box available for purchase on the secondary market. As with everything else associated with this, caveat emptor.
A risky wager, indeed but not for the owners of the unopened boxes!
This reminds me of those high end baseball and basketball card boxes where you pay thousands for 3 cards. One or two might get lucky but the majority all lose.
I have no idea of the business model, but ....
... I am sure the model is not to lose money.
Probably works something like this ...
Seed 10% of the boxes with a nice rip in hopes those rips are posted on the internet.
Sell a ton and make bank on the other 90%